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'Suicide bomber' the work of Israeli intelligence

dh | 10.05.2002 21:48

You know that the explosion at the pool hall is so well-timed that it's unreal, dontcha? setting the forces against Gaza."Claimed by Hamas" but with none of the usual verification. How much more of this PRS is the left going to accept and try to explain away? Apologies in advance for the non-PC tone of this article.

dh

Comments

Hide the following 8 comments

Fake Terror

10.05.2002 22:41

Why apologise for stating the obvious? Israel has the most effective "counter-terrorism" Unit in the World whose recruits now comprise the entire Israeli cabinet, including Ariel Sharon, how easy is it for the Mossad to orchestrate 'designer terror' on cue, to justify their preconceived objective of invading Gaza? Like the US after 911, they wrote the script, played it out and the media reports the 'official line' without question.

Real Terrorists


from the bbc

10.05.2002 23:16

Israeli police are holding four Jewish settlers on suspicion of planning attacks on Palestinians in Jersusalem.

Two of the men were arrested two weeks ago but a news blackout was imposed.

A powerful bomb and detonator were said to be found in a trailor the two men had left next to a hospital.

Meanwhile, Israeli activists planning a peace rally say they have received death threats from a group claiming to be responsable for attacks on palestinians.

do we see these people murdered by the state


Abslolute

11.05.2002 08:20

Couldn't agree with you more on this one mr dh.
The bombs seem to go off just when Israel needs them most
and Hamas claim resposibility within minutes.
Or was it some geezer in arabic ??
the whole thing stinks of Mossad / CIA a real kosher job !!

Dan


That's a big accusation. Can DH back it up?

11.05.2002 21:43

DH: You are saying that the bombings have been carried out by the Israelis. Do you have even the tiniest iota of evidence that this is the case?

Furry Dave
mail e-mail: furry1dave@yahoo.com


hey dave

12.05.2002 19:42

i have evidence that the so called children of god did not attack settlements that planned bomb attacks on palestinians.

i also have evidence that israel has weapons of mass destruction, care to chat at the so called farce of the UN.


peace to all men, of all faiths, you are all equal

one of several billion


Hard proof of covert operations

12.05.2002 21:19

If the biggest and most powerful state in the world wishes to hide the truth about its covert operations and those of its allies, it can be extremely difficult to provide hard proof - after all, best mate Blair could produce no concrete evidence against Bin Laden to justify an invasion of a poor country.You have to glean, read between lines, use your intuition to get close to the truth in this Big Lie of a world......-

x ** TOP_VIEW ** x
The Bigger Picture

5.11.02

The Big Lie about 'suicide bombers'

Here is a reprint of a recent Carol Valentine article which puts forth ample
evidence that MANY, if not ALL, so-called "suicide bomber" attacks
supposedly carried out by "Palestinian" 'terrorists" are in fact being
perpetrated by the Mossad-supported "Hamas" and similar bogus front
organizations.

This assessment indeed correlates EXACTLY with information conveyed to us
from a DoS source and published in a TOP_VIEW bulletin on April 14:
information that a alleged "suicide bomber" attack in a Jerusalem market
that Friday was -- like most of these supposed "suicide bomber" attacks --
was perpetrated by a brainwashed/mind-controlled zombie killer under the
control of Israeli/CIA intelligence units. Our April 14 article on this is
reprinted after the Valentine article.

= = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 16:00:44 -0400
From: "Carol A. Valentine" br />Subject: Tooth Fairies and Suicide Bombers

Tooth Fairies and Suicide Bombers
** or "Hi, my name is Abudla. I'll be your suicide bomber this evening . .
."
by Carol A. Valentine President,
Public Action, Inc.

May 9, 2002

People, let's use our noggins. The suicide bombers are not what they seem to
be.

For many months now, I have been reading stories about alleged "suicide
bombers" in the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Within a short
time after the attack, not only is the suicide bomber identified by name,
but we have nice colored photos, almost portrait quality shots, of the dead
culprits.

For example, on April 27, 2002, the Washington Post ran an article in the
Style section, "Female Suicide Bombers: the New Factor in Mideast's Deadly
Equation." Shown at the top of the article are four color photos of the
faces of four Palestinian (?) women, face to the camera, posed for the
photographer.

How thoughtful of the suicide bombers to have those photos taken. How
thoughtful of the suicide bombers to leave the photos behind to be
conveniently found by the Zionist-owned press. And what a public service the
Zionist-owned press is doing the whole world by publishing these photos.

SUICIDE BOMBER MIRACLES

Typically, stories about suicide bombers tell us that the bomber went to a
public place such as a bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., and
blew himself/herself up along with one, two, or many Israelis.

Funny, they rarely hit military targets. I wonder why?

The general story line is that the bomber had explosives attached to his/her
person. The story goes on to describe the carnage in grisly detail -
dismembered bodies, etc. But, remarkably, the suicide bomber himself/herself
is not blown to smithereens. The bomber's body is left in sufficiently good
shape to be identified immediately, and of course the Israeli authorities do
just that.

But even more remarkable: The Israelis come up with these nice portraits of
the culprits. And what is most remarkable of all? Everything is coordinated,
bombers ID'd, photos gathered, stories written -- and published all over the
world by the Zionist press -- within a few hours or days after the event.

SUICIDE BOMBING NOT TOO SMART

Why would a Palestinian bent on vengeance commit suicide? Far better to go
to the bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., with a shopping bag or
backpack full of explosives, casually discard the package in some
inconspicuous place, and leave. BOOM! Lots of Israelis die, and the bomber
walks away to bomb another location next week. But no, we are asked to
believe that the suicide bombers blow THEMSELVES up, too.

"Why would the bombers do that?" we ask. "Because they are fanatics, that's
why," is the response.

Well, if you are a Palestinian fanatic you would surely would want to kill
as many Israelis as possible. You would want to extend your life as long as
possible to do that job. Committing suicide unnecessarily would be a very
dumb thing to do.

WHY NO IRA SUICIDE BOMBERS?

In all the years of IRA activity in Northern Ireland and Britain, the IRA
never used suicide bombers, did they? Wonder why the "Palestinians" have to?

IT'S THE QUR'AN! THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY'RE MUSLIMS!

There's another variation to these inane suicid ?...) ... P.

"The su Pe bombers are not just fanatics, they are MUSLIM fanatics. Allah
will reward them for their deeds. They want to go to heaven to be rewarded."

Yet I have NEVER seen one cite from the Qur'an that justifies suicide, under
any conditions. Quite the reverse. I have seen cites from the Qur'an which
clearly prohibit suicide.

Now doubtless there are passages in the Qur'an say eternal bliss will be
endowed upon those brave souls who lose their lives while fighting God's
war. Big deal. We have chaplains in the US military who, give or take, give
our soldiers the same kind of message. That's their job.

If the Israelis want us to believe that the suicide bombers are fanatic
Muslims, they need to come up with Qur'anic scriptures to prove their point.
They don't. They can't. The Israelis are lying. What else is new?

SUICIDE BOMBERS AND SUICIDE BOMBERS

The Palestinian suicide bombers have been compared to the Japanese Kamikazee
pilots who purposely flew their bomb-laden planes into American war ships at
sea during world War II.

The Japanese knew they were in danger of losing the war, and they wanted to
reverse the trend. So they arrived at a strategy which would inflict maximum
American damage for minimum Japanese damage. The Kamikazee strategy was very
successful. For each Japanese killed, 10 Americans were killed and many
ships were sunk or badly damaged. Unfortunately for the Japanese, the
Kamikazee strategy was not successful enough. The US had the A-bomb.

The Kamikazee pilots' purpose was not to commit suicide. Their deaths were
the necessary by-product of a heroic attempt to defeat a military enemy, an
enemy who threatened the life of the Emperor, their God. Of course the
Kamikazee pilots thought they'd go to Heaven, too, but that seems to be a
common denominator for all who fight in the Good War.

THE HAMAS JOKE

And what of the Hamas, claiming responsibility for these suicide bombings?
The reports that the Hamas takes responsibility comes from the Israelis, and
we know they never lie.

There is almost no chance the Hamas is a real Palestinian operation. It
almost certainly is an undercover Israeli mockingbird operation.

Before me on my desk are two color photos of -- can you believe -- students
who attend "suicide bomber" schools. The schools are either run by the
Hamas, or Hamas "sympathizers."

One dramatic front page color photo appeared in the Washington Times of
December 10, 2001 with this caption:

"Ready to Die: At an anti-Israeli demonstration commemorating Hamas's
14th anniversary yesterday, suicide bombers with fake dynamite strapped to
their chests paraded near the southern Lebanese city of Sidon. "

The photo is attributed to Associated Press, and shows at least 10 people,
whose faces and bodies are entirely covered by white sheeting, facing the
camera.

Another dramatic front page color photo appeared in the Washington Times on
March 4, 2002. The caption reads:

"Humas activists, dressed as 'suicide bombers' with fake explosives strapped
to their waists, rallied yesterday in the West Bank."

There are at least 11 white-garbed clowns in this photo, which is again
attributed to Associated Press.

Juxtaposed beneath the photo of the 11suicide bomber students is a photo of
four young Israelis, two of them boys dressed in black with black hats and
side curls. The boys wear mournful expressions on their faces. The caption
reads: "Blast site: Ultra-Orthodox Jews watched volunteers clean the
Jerusalem site Sunday where a suicide bomber killed nine persons."

"Gee, how sweet and nice those young boys look. Fancy having to put up with
suicide bombers . . ." that's what we are supposed to think.

Israel has declared on many occasions that assassination is its official
policy. How many times have we heard of Palestinian leaders summarily shot
dead on the spot by Israeli hit men? That being the case, how realistic is
it that the Israelis would permit these young "suicide bombers" to train
openly, and march down the street openly? How likely do you think it is that
Israel would permit REAL suicide bomber schools to exist?

And how do you think that Associated Press found out about the
demonstrations and showed up to take photos? Next we'll be told the suicide
bomber schools have public relations departments and send out press
releases.

How dumb do they think we are, that we'd believe all this? Well, you can
speak for yourself. But I ain't THAT dumb.

THE PUBLIC RELATIONS WAR

I believe Israel runs a suicide bomber campaign. The suicide bomber campaign
serves at least four purposes.

* Sharon the Madman needs an insane foe. An insane foe makes Sharon and
those behind him look good, or at least not so bad.

* In May, 2001, world public opinion was moved to sympathy for the
Palestinian cause. We were enchanted at "The Return of the Knight."
 http://www.ukar.org/shamir09.shtml

The heroism of this young Palestinian boy swept the world's imagination.
Obviously, the Israelis were losing the PR war. Shortly thereafter, a new
rash of suicide bombers broke out and continues to this day. The suicide
bomber campaign was in part an attempt to reverse a growing Israeli PR
disaster.

* By September 11, 2001, Muslim fanatics committing suicide had to be firmly
planted in the public mind as a common-place event. That paradigm made the
fantastic stories of the "suicide pilots" -- those Muslims accused of
crashing the United and American passenger jets into the World Trade Center
and the Pentagon on 9-11 -- easier to swallow.

* Depicting the Palestinians are irrational fanatics justifies their
extermination. Proof?

This from the mouth of Richard Cohen, columnist for the Washington Post. On
February 5, 2002, Cohen wrote a column "Why the Turn to Suicide?"

"NEW YORK -- On my first visit to Israel, the government supplied me with a
guide -- a former army officer and combat veteran renowned for his hawkish
views. We disagreed about almost everything, including the nature of the
"enemy." I found his views simplistic and repulsive. Recently, though, I
have begun to wonder if he wasn't right . . ."

Cohen then moves on to talk about suicide bombers.

" It [Palestine] is now behaving as the Japanese did toward the end of World
War II when, in desperation, they sent pilots crashing into U. S. ships.
These kamikaze attacks were both effective and terrifying, but they were
also a clear sign that Japan had gone nuts.

"The kamikaze attacks were an important element in the dehumanizing of
Japan. They encouraged, maybe the right word is "permitted," the use of the
atomic bomb. After all, the enemy was not rational. It was barbaric. It
would never surrender. It would fight to the last square inch. Better to
incinerate them all.

"In a similar manner, suicide bombings have transformed the image of
Palestinians. Now, in the view of many, they are similar to the people my
guide once so excoriated and insulted -- so different, so primitive, so
cruel and indifferent to human life that they celebrate the suicide of a
loved one and the simultaneous murder of innocent people. "

There you have it. The PR payoff of the suicide bomber campaign is to
convince world public opinion that any barbaric act against the Palestinians
is justified. Nuke them, burn them alive, decapitate every last man, woman,
and child. Do whatever you wish.

"BUT I SAW THE FAMILY BEING INTERVIEWED ON TEE VEE . . . "

If I were the director of an Israeli dirty trick intelligence organization,
I could think of a number of ways to pull off "suicide" bombings.

* Send an agent to a public place, have him inconspicuously drop off his
package and leave. BOOM! Meanwhile, simply abduct and murder some
unfortunate Palestinian and blame it on him or her.

* Create a false ID for the Israeli agent, have him establish that persona
in real time, send him into a public place, have him inconspicuously drop
off his package and leave. BOOM! Then disappear the agent.

* With effective Israeli control of hospitals, mental hospitals, and
prisons, Israeli intelligence people have a plentiful supply of the walking
wounded at their fingertips -- Palestinians who are human ruins,
shellshocked, brain-damaged and drugged to the gills. How easy it would be
to send one of these unknowing unfortunates out on an errand. "Here, strap
this money belt around your middle to make sure you don't lose the money."
Tell the poor sap to meet someone in a pool hall, and detonate the "money
belt." BOOM!

I'll allow you to come up with other possible scenarios. It's not hard to
do.

And as for the interviews with the bereaved family members -- we don't know
the people being interviewed from Adam. They could have come straight from
Central Casting. Or they could be genuinely bereaved family members of real
victims -- people who have been watching too much Tee Vee and believe the
"suicide bomber" media campaign.

Expect more "suicide" bombings, but believe them less. Thank you. -- Carol
A. Valentine President, Public Action, Inc.  http://www.Public-Action.com See
the handiwork of the world's leading terrorist organization, the FBI: Visit
the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum

911 Lies exposed at  http://www.public-action.com/



x ** TOP_VIEW ** x The Bigger Picture

4.14.02 Fri Jerusalem blast a Mossad/CIA operation: DoS official!
** Bombing part of Sharonite 'ambush' of BushMob token Negro Powell
** hi-tech spook surgical procedures used to make it appear previously
kidnapped-murdered Palestinian girl was perpetrator
** Timing of blast, JUST as Powell was to get airborne Friday, strongly
supportive of DoS rep's claims

TOP_VIEW has received an urgent message from a source with the US State
Department. This individual has already provided us (and thus our readers)
with crucial information concerning the CURRENT and ONGOING funneling of
weapons and war (bomb) materiel to Islamic extremist organizations in
occupied territories, with which "suicide bombings" are being carried out --
generally with Mossad assistance.

This source, who's had a long career in foreign affairs and is presently
with the Middle East affairs desk at State, says he first got wind on
Thursday of this extraordinarily diabolical plan being hatched by Sharon and
the Mossad with the cooperation of certain rabidly Zionist/NWO factions of
the CIA, but at first discounted it as probable rumor and gum-flapping.

The plan was that shortly after Powell's scheduled meetings with Sharon and
other top Israel officials Friday, a bomb was to be detonated in a Jerusalem
open-air market -- by a operative who'd been THOROUGHLY brainwashed,
programmed and fully trained and equipped by the Mossad AND the CIA. AGAIN:
the bomb was NOT detonated by a young Palestinian girl named Nidal
Daraghmeh.

Nidal Daraghmeh, whom Israeli officials have CLAIMED perpetrated the
bombing, had IN FACT been previously kidnapped and murdered by the Mossad --
and some of her body parts removed, to be planted at the scene of the
bombing so as to pin the act upon this hapless, brutalized Palestinian. The
actual detonation was carried out by a zombified, wholly mind-controlled
CIA/Mossad operative.

Indeed, exactly on schedule, just as Powell and Sharon had concluded meeting
with Israeli Defense Minister Ben Eliezer -- during which Powell had been
heavily ambushed and browbeaten by a very aggressive and callous cadre of
hard-core Sharonista propagandizers, and were about to chopper to the
Israel-Lebanon border and POSSIBLY to visit some camps and villages recently
devastated by the Israeli blitzkrieg, word came that the bomb had been set
off at Mehane Yehuda market as planned, resulting in seven Israeli deaths
and scores wounded.

In fact, as the bomb went off, Ben Eliezer immediately turned to Powell and
said "You see? THIS is the welcome the Palestinians give you."

Needless to say: Any plans for Powell to visit Palestinian camps turned to
hell-on-earth by the Israeli offensive were immediately SCRAPPED, as was the
scheduled Saturday meeting with Arafat.

IT WAS ALL A MOSSAD/CIA set-up; intended to throw the Powell "peace mission"
into utter disarray, further discredit the Palestinian cause and especially
Arafat himself, sway world opinion back toward Israel, shut the shrub up,
and so on.

AND IT WORKED!

Furthermore, our state Department source has told us that according to
information he now realizes was/is credible, there are certain to be many
more such staged, scripted "incidents" -- specifically engineered for
maximum shock value and psychological impact -- immediately AFTER Powell
leaves; to ENSURE that any possible slight breakthroughs he may have managed
to broker in stopping the horrific cycle of violence -- any faint glimmers
of peace and/or resolution -- will be thoroughly and irrevocably scuttled.

Our source informs us as well that a well-known Israeli political figure,
who must for now remain nameless, may very well be a target -- and very
conveniently so for the Sharon/Netanyahu axis -- in one of these Mossad/CIA
Sharonista upcoming staged "suicide" bomber attacks.

Our source urges us to point out, however, that certain Islamic factions and
groups, some perhaps with no links to US or Israeli "black ops" intelligence
sectors, are certainly responsible for carrying out some of the suicide bomb
attacks.

dh


No, DH. I asked for evidence, not crazy rants

13.05.2002 21:26

What DH posted is not at all proof that the bombings are being carried out by the Israelis. In fact, it doesn't even contain the tiniest iota of evidence. To make the following a bit easier to read I've preceded extracts from DH's post with ">>" and my responses with "==".

>> "Here is a reprint of a recent Carol Valentine article which puts forth ample
evidence that MANY, if not ALL, so-called "suicide bomber" attacks
supposedly carried out by "Palestinian" 'terrorists" are in fact being
perpetrated by the Mossad-supported "Hamas" and similar bogus front
organizations.
This assessment indeed correlates EXACTLY with information conveyed to us"

== "conveyed to us" Who is "us"? Do you have a URL to the source for this posting, or has this information been conveyed personally to DH? I'm just wondering who is saying what. It's not clear.

>> "from a DoS source and published in a TOP_VIEW bulletin on April 14:
information that a alleged "suicide bomber" attack in a Jerusalem market
that Friday was -- like most of these supposed "suicide bomber" attacks --
was perpetrated by a brainwashed/mind-controlled zombie killer under the
control of Israeli/CIA intelligence units. Our April 14 article on this is
reprinted after the Valentine article."

== A "brainwashed/mind-controlled zombie". Mmmm, yeah. From the Brainwashed Zombie Regiment, no doubt.

>> "by Carol A. Valentine President [...] People, let's use our noggins. The suicide bombers are not what they seem to be.
For many months now, I have been reading stories about alleged "suicide
bombers" in the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Within a short
time after the attack, not only is the suicide bomber identified by name,
but we have nice colored photos, almost portrait quality shots, of the dead
culprits.
For example, on April 27, 2002, the Washington Post ran an article in the
Style section, "Female Suicide Bombers: the New Factor in Mideast's Deadly
Equation." Shown at the top of the article are four color photos of the
faces of four Palestinian (?) women, face to the camera, posed for the
photographer.
How thoughtful of the suicide bombers to have those photos taken. How
thoughtful of the suicide bombers to leave the photos behind to be
conveniently found by the Zionist-owned press. And what a public service the
Zionist-owned press is doing the whole world by publishing these photos."

>> "SUICIDE BOMBER MIRACLES
Typically, stories about suicide bombers tell us that the bomber went to a
public place such as a bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., and
blew himself/herself up along with one, two, or many Israelis.
Funny, they rarely hit military targets. I wonder why?"

== Because the aim of the bombers is to kill as many Israelis as possible, and it's easier to kill a large number of civilians than to kill a large number of soldiers. Civilians crowd together in places like markets, restaraunts and nightclubs. Soldiers tend to crouch behind sandbags, disperse themselves, wear body armour, be alert and shoot anyone who comes too close. All these things make civilians much easier to kill than soldiers.

>> "The general story line is that the bomber had explosives attached to his/her
person. The story goes on to describe the carnage in grisly detail -
dismembered bodies, etc. But, remarkably, the suicide bomber himself/ herself
is not blown to smithereens. The bomber's body is left in sufficiently good
shape to be identified immediately, and of course the Israeli authorities do
just that.
But even more remarkable: The Israelis come up with these nice portraits of
the culprits. And what is most remarkable of all? Everything is coordinated,
bombers ID'd, photos gathered, stories written -- and published all over the
world by the Zionist press -- within a few hours or days after the event."

>> "SUICIDE BOMBING NOT TOO SMART

== Nobody's ever suggested that suicide bombing is 'smart'. Just because it's stupid and irrational doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

>> "Why would a Palestinian bent on vengeance commit suicide? Far better to go
to the bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., with a shopping bag or
backpack full of explosives, casually discard the package in some
inconspicuous place, and leave. BOOM! Lots of Israelis die, and the bomber
walks away to bomb another location next week. But no, we are asked to
believe that the suicide bombers blow THEMSELVES up, too."

== Leaving the bomb and walking away runs the risk that someone will notice the suspicious package and evacuate the area before it explodes. A suicide bomber can walk to the densest part of the crowd and explode immediately, with no chance for anyone to clear the area. Leaving bombs to explode makes sense if the attackers value their own lives highly, or are few in number so each attacker needs to stay alive. But if the attackers value their own lives less than they value killing large numbers of the enemy, or there are large numbers of volunteers willing to blow themselves up, then suicide bombing makes sense as a way to kill the largest number of people.

>> "WHY NO IRA SUICIDE BOMBERS?
In all the years of IRA activity in Northern Ireland and Britain, the IRA
never used suicide bombers, did they? Wonder why the "Palestinians" have to?"

== That tells me that IRA bombers placed a higher value on their own survival than on killing their targets, whereas Palestinian bombers place a higher value on killing Israelis than on their own lives.

>> "IT'S THE QUR'AN! THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY'RE MUSLIMS!
I have NEVER seen one cite from the Qur'an that justifies suicide, under
any conditions. Quite the reverse. I have seen cites from the Qur'an which
clearly prohibit suicide.
Now doubtless there are passages in the Qur'an say eternal bliss will be
endowed upon those brave souls who lose their lives while fighting God's
war. Big deal. We have chaplains in the US military who, give or take, give
our soldiers the same kind of message. That's their job.
If the Israelis want us to believe that the suicide bombers are fanatic
Muslims, they need to come up with Qur'anic scriptures to prove their point.
They don't. They can't. The Israelis are lying. What else is new?"

== Whether or not it says such-and-such in the Quran is irrelevant. What matters is what the Imams and Quranic scholars *say* the Quran's viewpoint is and what public opinion of the Quran's viewpoint is. There are scholars, Imams amd other highly respected people saying that a suicide bombing is a great act, with a certain reward in heaven.
( http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/April/Martyr/)
( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020413/ap_wo_en_ge/saudi_suicide_attacks_1&printer=1)
( http://www.iranmania.com/news/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=9695&NewsKind=CurrentAffairs)

>> "SUICIDE BOMBERS AND SUICIDE BOMBERS
The Palestinian suicide bombers have been compared to the Japanese Kamikazee
pilots who purposely flew their bomb-laden planes into American war ships at
sea during world War II.
[...] The Kamikazee pilots' purpose was not to commit suicide. Their deaths were
the necessary by-product of a heroic attempt to defeat a military enemy, an
enemy who threatened the life of the Emperor, their God. Of course the
Kamikazee pilots thought they'd go to Heaven, too, but that seems to be a
common denominator for all who fight in the Good War."

== The point of these paragraphs seems to be to point out that people who think they'll get a reward in heaven are perfectly capable of setting out to kill their mortal enemies in a way which ensures their own death. A bit like suicide bombers, really.

>> "THE HAMAS JOKE
And what of the Hamas, claiming responsibility for these suicide bombings?
The reports that the Hamas takes responsibility comes from the Israelis, and
we know they never lie.
There is almost no chance the Hamas is a real Palestinian operation. It
almost certainly is an undercover Israeli mockingbird operation.
[...] The photo is attributed to Associated Press, and shows at least 10 people,
whose faces and bodies are entirely covered by white sheeting, facing the
camera.
Another dramatic front page color photo appeared in the Washington Times on
March 4, 2002. The caption reads:
"Humas activists, dressed as 'suicide bombers' with fake explosives strapped
to their waists, rallied yesterday in the West Bank."
There are at least 11 white-garbed clowns in this photo, which is again
attributed to Associated Press. [...] Israel has declared on many occasions that assassination is its official policy. How many times have we heard of Palestinian leaders summarily shot
dead on the spot by Israeli hit men?"

== More usually being blown up by missiles fired from helicopters, but I take your point...

>> "That being the case, how realistic is
it that the Israelis would permit these young "suicide bombers" to train
openly, and march down the street openly? How likely do you think it is that
Israel would permit REAL suicide bomber schools to exist?"

== Almost as if the Israeli army should move to occupy those places where this sort of thing is going on and kill or capture those people it knows to be involved, as well as destroying their buildings and equipment. It would also make sense to lay siege to any buildings where wanted men hide, and make sure they are either imprisoned or at the very least expelled to distant countries. Also things like fences, roadblocks and checkpoints are clearly necessary to make it difficult for bombers to move into Israel to find their targets. What an excellent idea! Of course, when they do just that in Jenin and Bethlehem the entire population of Indymedia hops up and down shouting "genocide!" but there will always be Carol Valentine's writings saying how Israel cannot be expected to tolerate people planning murder on its doorstep.

>> "And how do you think that Associated Press found out about the
demonstrations and showed up to take photos? Next we'll be told the suicide
bomber schools have public relations departments and send out press
releases."

== I find it very easy to believe that a journalist in Gaza City might be taken to see a demonstration by Hamas / Al-Aqsa / Whoever.

>> "I believe Israel runs a suicide bomber campaign. The suicide bomber campaign
serves at least four purposes."

== So according to Carol Valentine it's crazy/impossible for the enemies of the Israelis to be running a suicide bomber campaign to kill Israelis, but perfectly possible for the Israelis themselves to be running a suicide bomber campaign to kill Israelis. That strikes me as a needlessly overcomplicated explanation.

>> "BUT I SAW THE FAMILY BEING INTERVIEWED ON TEE VEE . . .
If I were the director of an Israeli dirty trick intelligence organization,
I could think of a number of ways to pull off "suicide" bombings.
[...] I'll allow you to come up with other possible scenarios. It's not hard to
do."

== All the scenarios laid out are highly elaborate. Far more straightforward is the following: a Palestinian puts on an explosive belt, walks to a crowded place and explodes, at which point Hamas / AlAqsa / Whoever make an announcement praising their bravery and self-sacrifice. None of what DH posted suggests that this simple scenario is implausible or unlikely. I prefer to believe simple explanations that make sense and are backed up by evidence, rather than elaborate twisty conspiracy theories which don't come with supporting evidence.

>> "And as for the interviews with the bereaved family members -- we don't know
the people being interviewed from Adam. They could have come straight from
Central Casting. Or they could be genuinely bereaved family members of real
victims -- people who have been watching too much Tee Vee and believe the
"suicide bomber" media campaign."

== This seems to be saying that even the interviews with relatives of the victims are faked. That's just daft.

It goes on, but I have better things to do with my time.

Furry Dave
mail e-mail: furry1dave@yahoo.com


I asked for evidence, not for deluded ranting

14.05.2002 18:06

What DH posted is not at all proof that the bombings are being carried out by the Israelis. In fact, it doesn't even contain the tiniest iota of evidence. To make the following a bit easier to read I've preceded extracts from DH's post with ">>" and my responses with "==".

>> "Here is a reprint of a recent Carol Valentine article which puts forth ample
evidence that MANY, if not ALL, so-called "suicide bomber" attacks [...] are in fact being
perpetrated by the Mossad-supported "Hamas" and similar bogus front organizations.
This assessment indeed correlates EXACTLY with information conveyed to us"

== "conveyed to us" Who is "us"? Do you have a URL to the source for this posting, or has this information been conveyed personally to DH? I'm just wondering who is saying what. It's not clear.

>> "alleged "suicide bomber" attack in a Jerusalem market
that Friday was -- like most of these supposed "suicide bomber" attacks --
was perpetrated by a brainwashed/mind-controlled zombie killer under the
control of Israeli/CIA intelligence units. Our April 14 article on this is
reprinted after the Valentine article."

== A "brainwashed/mind-controlled zombie". Mmmm, yeah. From the Brainwashed Zombie Regiment, no doubt.

>> "SUICIDE BOMBER MIRACLES
Typically, stories about suicide bombers tell us that the bomber went to a
public place such as a bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., and
blew himself/herself up along with one, two, or many Israelis.
Funny, they rarely hit military targets. I wonder why?"

== Because the aim of the bombers is to kill as many Israelis as possible, and it's easier to kill a large number of civilians than to kill a large number of soldiers. Civilians crowd together in places like markets, restaraunts and nightclubs. Soldiers tend to crouch behind sandbags, disperse themselves, wear body armour, be alert and shoot anyone who comes too close. All these things make civilians much easier to kill than soldiers.

>> "SUICIDE BOMBING NOT TOO SMART

== Nobody's ever suggested that suicide bombing is 'smart'. Just because it's stupid and irrational doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

>> "Why would a Palestinian bent on vengeance commit suicide? Far better to go
to the bus stop, market, restaurant, pool hall, etc., with a shopping bag or
backpack full of explosives, casually discard the package in some
inconspicuous place, and leave. BOOM! Lots of Israelis die, and the bomber
walks away to bomb another location next week. But no, we are asked to
believe that the suicide bombers blow THEMSELVES up, too."

== Leaving the bomb and walking away runs the risk that someone will notice the suspicious package and evacuate the area before it explodes. A suicide bomber can walk to the densest part of the crowd and explode immediately, with no chance for anyone to clear the area. Leaving bombs to explode makes sense if the attackers value their own lives highly, or are few in number so each attacker needs to stay alive. But if the attackers value their own lives less than they value killing large numbers of the enemy, or there are large numbers of volunteers willing to blow themselves up, then suicide bombing makes sense as a way to kill the largest number of people.

>> "WHY NO IRA SUICIDE BOMBERS?
In all the years of IRA activity in Northern Ireland and Britain, the IRA
never used suicide bombers, did they? Wonder why the "Palestinians" have to?"

== That tells me that IRA bombers placed a higher value on their own survival than on killing their targets, whereas Palestinian bombers place a higher value on killing Israelis than on their own lives.

>> "IT'S THE QUR'AN! THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY'RE MUSLIMS!
I have NEVER seen one cite from the Qur'an that justifies suicide, under
any conditions. Quite the reverse. I have seen cites from the Qur'an which
clearly prohibit suicide. [...]If the Israelis want us to believe that the suicide bombers are fanatic
Muslims, they need to come up with Qur'anic scriptures to prove their point.
They don't. They can't. The Israelis are lying. What else is new?"

== Whether or not it says such-and-such in the Quran is irrelevant. What matters is what the Imams and Quranic scholars *say* the Quran's viewpoint is and what public opinion of the Quran's viewpoint is. There are scholars, Imams amd other highly respected people saying that a suicide bombing is a great act, with a certain reward in heaven.
( http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/April/Martyr/)
( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020413/ap_wo_en_ge/saudi_suicide_attacks_1&printer=1)
( http://www.iranmania.com/news/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=9695&NewsKind=CurrentAffairs)

>> "SUICIDE BOMBERS AND SUICIDE BOMBERS
The Palestinian suicide bombers have been compared to the Japanese Kamikazee
pilots who purposely flew their bomb-laden planes into American war ships at
sea during world War II.
[...] The Kamikazee pilots' purpose was not to commit suicide. Their deaths were
the necessary by-product of a heroic attempt to defeat a military enemy, an
enemy who threatened the life of the Emperor, their God. Of course the
Kamikazee pilots thought they'd go to Heaven, too, but that seems to be a
common denominator for all who fight in the Good War."

== The point of these paragraphs seems to be to point out that people who think they'll get a reward in heaven are perfectly capable of setting out to kill their mortal enemies in a way which ensures their own death. A bit like suicide bombers, really.

>> "THE HAMAS JOKE
And what of the Hamas, claiming responsibility for these suicide bombings?
The reports that the Hamas takes responsibility comes from the Israelis, and
we know they never lie.
There is almost no chance the Hamas is a real Palestinian operation. It
almost certainly is an undercover Israeli mockingbird operation.
[...] The photo is attributed to Associated Press, and shows at least 10 people,
whose faces and bodies are entirely covered by white sheeting, facing the
camera. [...] Israel has declared on many occasions that assassination is its official policy. How many times have we heard of Palestinian leaders summarily shot
dead on the spot by Israeli hit men?"

== More usually being blown up by missiles fired from helicopters, but I take your point...

>> "That being the case, how realistic is
it that the Israelis would permit these young "suicide bombers" to train
openly, and march down the street openly? How likely do you think it is that
Israel would permit REAL suicide bomber schools to exist?"

== Almost as if the Israeli army should move to occupy those places where this sort of thing is going on and kill or capture those people it knows to be involved, as well as destroying their buildings and equipment. It would also make sense to lay siege to any buildings where wanted men hide, and make sure they are either imprisoned or at the very least expelled to distant countries. Also things like fences, roadblocks and checkpoints are clearly necessary to make it difficult for bombers to move into Israel to find their targets. What an excellent idea! Of course, when they do just that in Jenin and Bethlehem the entire population of Indymedia hops up and down shouting "genocide!" but there will always be Carol Valentine's writings saying how Israel cannot be expected to tolerate people planning murder on its doorstep.

>> "And how do you think that Associated Press found out about the
demonstrations and showed up to take photos? Next we'll be told the suicide
bomber schools have public relations departments and send out press
releases."

== I find it very easy to believe that a journalist in Gaza City might be taken to see a demonstration by Hamas / Al-Aqsa / Whoever.

>> "I believe Israel runs a suicide bomber campaign. The suicide bomber campaign
serves at least four purposes."

== So according to Carol Valentine it's crazy/impossible for the enemies of the Israelis to be running a suicide bomber campaign to kill Israelis, but perfectly possible for the Israelis themselves to be running a suicide bomber campaign to kill Israelis. That strikes me as a needlessly overcomplicated explanation.

>> "BUT I SAW THE FAMILY BEING INTERVIEWED ON TEE VEE . . .
If I were the director of an Israeli dirty trick intelligence organization,
I could think of a number of ways to pull off "suicide" bombings.
[...] I'll allow you to come up with other possible scenarios. It's not hard to
do."

== All the scenarios laid out are highly elaborate. Far more straightforward is the following: a Palestinian puts on an explosive belt, walks to a crowded place and explodes, at which point Hamas / AlAqsa / Whoever make an announcement praising their bravery and self-sacrifice. None of what DH posted suggests that this simple scenario is implausible or unlikely. I prefer to believe simple explanations that make sense and are backed up by evidence, rather than elaborate twisty conspiracy theories which don't come with supporting evidence.

>> "And as for the interviews with the bereaved family members -- we don't know
the people being interviewed from Adam. They could have come straight from
Central Casting. Or they could be genuinely bereaved family members of real
victims -- people who have been watching too much Tee Vee and believe the
"suicide bomber" media campaign."

== This seems to be saying that even the interviews with relatives of the victims are faked. That's just daft.

It goes on, but I have better things to do with my time.

Furry Dave
mail e-mail: furry1dave@yahoo.com


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