But what have you achieved ? How any of you convinced one supporter of Israel there about their countries supposed war crimes and apartheid? Sounds like you just made a lot of noise and flapped your wings for a lot of nothing; you looked like you were there because you had to be there, not because you wanted to…

And blood in the water really… that’s creative, groundbreaking, who would have suspected? You really hit them where it hurt there…

As far as killing Palestinians goes, Golda Meir stated once: “We [Israel] can forgive the Palestinian’s for killing our children, but we can never for give them for making us kill their children”.

Perhaps when a generation of Palestinians are stopped from being brought up by suicide-bombing martyr-glorifying Islamic fanatics then there will be compromise. Under their conditions there is no compromise.

Gee G, this action has achieved more than you can measure using pompous dead words. It would be good if you caught up with evolved thinking and not remain in the era of the dead. Look at the pictures. The dynamic Palestinian supporters v. the state funded actors. Who was motivated to be there and who felt had a duty (or their job relied on it) to be there? A different state is coming...and I hope you're in a fit state to join in (ALIVE that is). One day we'll all have cause to celebrate.

"But what have you achieved ? How any of you convinced one supporter of Israel there about their countries supposed war crimes and apartheid? Sounds like you just made a lot of noise and flapped your wings for a lot of nothing; you looked like you were there because you had to be there, not because you wanted to… "


You really don't get it do you? They don't necessarily need to be winning over die hard zionists and Israelis, they just need to make sure that people don't assume that the birth of Israel came without a cost. Zionists tried to throw a PR stunt and people came together to counter it.

As for flapping wings and making noise, what exactly would you call a 60th birthday parade through London? Did it stop the evil beardy Arabs from slaughtering all the poor innocent Jew babies?



"Under their conditions there is no compromise."

If my main conditions were "stop starving us to death" and "treat us as human beings", I'd be a little incensed if I was told I wasn't compromising enough.

Great pics, but next time can you take some time to re-size them to around 640 * 480?

It takes us lot around 20 mins to re-size and upload a load of pictures.

I saw the protester who climbed up onto one of the screens and thought that he was very brave, not just for climbing there but also for holding on and staying up there for so long. He must have got the most terrible cramp, as well risking falling off and sustaining serious injury.

And all to make a point that... well that was the problem, his point wasn't clear. he shouted a few times, but lacking a megaphone it was impossible for anyone to hear what he was saying. Also he unfurled no banner and wore no distinctive clothes that conveyed his message. Indeed at first I thought he was merely a prankster until one of the "security" people told me that he was a protester who had climbed up there and that the police couldn't pull him down for "health and safety" reasons.

The "security" man also told me that they had to - and I guess this is a sign of their humanity - switch off the screen to protect him from getting electrocuted. One wonders whether Palestinians would have extended the same courtesy to a Zionist demonstrator, had the roles been reversed.

@brum imcista - sorry, I'm new to uploading photos onto Indymedia and
didn't realise how huge they would come out. Maybe you could include a
note about ideal photo size on your submission template? Thanks for
shrinking them.

Just on the point about the protestor climbing up the screen - I didn't
see this happen but I think the screen on the left of photo no. 4 (the
last pic of the fountains) must be the one in question, as in the earlier
pics it is in use and by the time I took that one it seems to have been
switched off.

Hey at the risk of sounding a bit pedantic, there is information about re-sizing pictures for uploading to the newsire on the prepublish page:

'Have you resized your pictures for web? If not, or if you need help, see here first.If you have photos or small audio or video files to attach to your article, use this method. However, if your upload will exceed 5 MB, or your upload is taking a long time, or the upload is just not working, you should use the FTP method below.'

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/prepublish.html

"you looked like you were there because you had to be there, not because you wanted to…"

What, really? I want a world where no-one will have to protest against oppressive colonial states because they won't exist; until that world is created, we have a duty to turn up at events like this. What's so wrong with that?

"And blood in the water really… that’s creative, groundbreaking, who would have suspected? You really hit them where it hurt there…"

Ok, what method would you prefer? Suicide bombing?

As far as killing Palestinians goes, Golda Meir stated once: “We [Israel] can forgive the Palestinian’s for killing our children, but we can never for give them for making us kill their children”.

As far as killing Palestinians goes, I can't forgive the Israeli state for killing children, but I certainly can't forgive it for pretending that killing children is some kind of noble act that it's forced into doing.

"The "security" man also told me that they had to - and I guess this is a sign of their humanity - switch off the screen to protect him from getting electrocuted. One wonders whether Palestinians would have extended the same courtesy to a Zionist demonstrator, had the roles been reversed."


Well, 60 years after the Zionists stop illegaly colonising other people's land and denying the Palestinians their legitimate homeland, we'll throw a big parade to celebrate the end of Zionist genocide, you can protest the fact.

That way we'll also be able to test whether or not the Palestinians will extend you the courtesy of stealing your land and water, committing genocide on your people, collect taxes from you to pay for the priviledge and then blaming you for your own situation.


Besides, what makes you think the guy who turned off the screen was a Zionist and the protester Palestinian? Odds are, they were neither.

The video footage of me singing 'Unhappy Birthday' is now available at

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2008/06//402235.mp4

Just look at those Zionists assaulting me! But instead of the police dragging them off, they drag off a harmless, Jewish singer......

You're excellent. Shame on the UK police: hand in blooded hand they walk with the Zionists; now there can be no doubt.

"FIT who took photos of activists who were stopped and searched under Terror Laws"

Was it really terror laws that were used? Or just the normal powers under PACE?

Some people were searched under s44 Terrorism Act 2000 other under s1 PACE.

brum imcista, you say "there is information about re-sizing pictures for uploading to the newsire on the prepublish page" but I can't see any link to that page from the template for submitting a
comment. It just says, "If you have photos or other media items to add, then go to the bottom of the page and fill in the number of items before writing your comment." We are told there is a max number of 20 media items and a max size of media files of 20 Mb but nowhere does it say there is a max photo size.

Ordinary readers might read a piece and just click on the link to add a comment and a photo, without
ever knowing that such a thing as a "prepublish page" exists.

So please could we have a brief note and a link from the comments template?

And Deborah the Diva, I would love to see the video of you almost being nicked but the file won't play - is there really such a thing as MP4 or should that be MP3? Anyway WIndows Media Player doesn't recognize the format and I don't know what player does recognize it.

Sue

Just to confirm - I was searched under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act along with two other peaceful activists while another activist was searched under Section 1. We have the papers to prove it!

My lawyer (who I rang on being searched) informed me that under "anti-terror" legislation, the police are given extra powers to stop and search in "Iconic" places - Trafalgar Square being one of them.

Why all this rubbish about Israel having an apartheid system? Tell that to the Arabs who constitute 17% of the student body at Israeli universities. Tell that to the Israeli Arabs who vote in Israeli elections (and those who don't, despite being eligible). Tell that to the Israeli Arabs who are members of the Israeli parliament as well as those who have been in the past.

Are there any Jews in the elected parliaments of Arab countries? Do the Arab countries even HAVE democratically elected parliaments.

I remember when the Israelis were condemned in 1974 for deviating from the enforcement of Jordanian law in the West Bank. And was was this heinous crime that the Israelis had committed? They allowed women to vote in the West Bank municipal elections in breach of Jordanian law! But the following year the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan gave women the vote - shamed into doing so by Israel's good example.

One other thing to bear in mind: it is possible to demonstrate on Israeli soil against the Israeli government - and people DO. Is it possible to demonstrate against the government of an Arab country IN THAT COUNTRY? That's the difference!

Dear David,
It's great that you think Palestinian Israelis voting for the Knesset is a good thing: unfortunately it's becoming a more and more mainstream opinion among Jewish israelis that giving those Palestinians citizenship was a mistake. The mainstream moderate "tranfer solution" is that they should be stripped of their Israeli citizenship and given a Palestinian one or a Jordanian one and let them go there. This amounts to endorsing ethnic cleansing: keep that Jewish State (as they call it) nice and clean of Arabs.

Yet since you are thankfully not of that ilk, David, and you think giving people the vote is an inclusive policy that makes Israel an benevolent state, why not give citizenship to the other 3.5 million stateless people living under Israel's control in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? It is the fact that Israel controls the territory, including basic supplies such as water, fuel, and necessities such as movement of people and goods, without actually giving the people any rights, that opens Israel to accusations of apartheid. It is not just a provocative cliche: it means occupying territory while curtailing the inhabitants' rights.

Nobody was arguing that Arab countries are models of democracy. Syrians, Egyptians and Saudis are indeed most oppressed by their own governments, each in their own way, and many of us who criticise Israel stand in solidarity with dissenting movements in those countries, as we do with all oppressed people. But it is not relevant to our criticism of Israel.

When Egyptians oppress Egyptians, Congolese oppress Congolese or Chinese oppress Chinese, and capitalists oppress workers-consumers, it is done through a system of power exclusivity that relies on well-known authoritarian and even totalitarian practices: ideology, building of coerced indifference and consent, and on violence. It is not that what Israel does to the Palestinians is exceptional (though many aspects of it are extreme in modern history), it is that combining these common oppressive elements with a linguistic, religious or ethnic divide adds the element of racism."Because they are different -- Arabs -- we will never, we cannot, give them rights." It is this racism that outrages. It is also this linguistic, religious and ethnic divide that gives a rallying cry to the resistance.

Your bringing in that argument about failed Arab governments is just deviating from the debate, and we must be wary of that tactic which derails discussions. As far as I know, Israel does not compare itself to other countries in the region, but to European and North American countries -- and in that comparison it fails miserably, except if we compare Israel to a time in Europe and America when colonialism and racism were the accepted, unquestionned norms.

NH

Dear NH,

The fact that SOME Israelis think that it was a mistake to give Israeli citizenship to Arabs within the pre-67 boundaries (not to mention offering it to East Jerusalem Arabs) does not alter the fact that such was citizenship WAS given and has NOT been rescinded. Based on many conversations with Israelis (including members of my own family), I do not get the impression that advocacy of "transfer" is a "mainstream" position within the very diverse and broad Israeli political spectrum. Support for separate Palestinian statehood amongst Israelis does NOT equate to advocating expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel.

As far as giving Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip the vote is concerned, the problem is - and I aware of the contentiousness of this point - that the Jews have genuine grounds to fear religious and political intolerance at the hands of a Muslim-Arab majority in a democratic secular bi-national state. Such a state would almost certainly not remain democratic or secular for long. That is why my comments about Arab states were relevant to this discussion: because they show what the Jews can expect in a predominantly Muslim state. This may be harsh comment, but it is rooted in well-documented fact.

You might say that these comments betray less than total confidence in democracy, despite my earlier comments. To this I plead guilty. The reality is that democracy is neither an end in itself nor a panacea for all political ills. Human rights (for both Jews and Arabs) are the important issue - democracy is merely a means for achieving them that works most, but not all, of the time. In that sense, criticism of Israel for human rights violations may well be legitimate, but I feel it is excessive, one-sided and in many cases misguided.

Regarding Israeli control of resources,it is worth noting that the Gaza Strip has a border with Egypt and the West Bank with Jordan. Israel's control of the territory cannot be as strong as you say, given that the Israelis haven't been able to prevent the movement of weapons and explosives, and haven't been able to stop katyusha rockets falling on Sderot. Even the accusations of controlling resources are somewhat exaggerated - as we saw when Gaza Strip residents staged a candlelight demonstration against Israeli controlled power-cuts, but forgot to tell the shops to switch off their lights!

I also cannot accept that the persecution of people by their own kind is any different from the persecution of people by others. And as to the magnitude of the persecution of Arabs (and Muslims) by their own breathren... well, do I really NEED to give the examples?

You are right that Israel compares itself to Europe and North America rather than to the other states in the Middle East, but the fact that Israel holds itself to such a high standard is itself a point in Israel's favour. And if Israel falls short of those standards, remember that Israel today is in a position approximately analagous to Britain between 1939 and 1945.

And does Israel really fall short of Western standards? I remember a couple of years ago when an Israeli Border Policeman was killed (and another injured) by suicide bomber whom they challenged. Under the rules of engagement - still in force - they could not shoot him without challenging him first, unless a bomb or weapon was visible. Contrast that to the rules of engagement in Britain (also still unchanged) which claimed the life of Jean Charles de Menezes. In some respects, Israel compares favourably to the west!

"Well, 60 years after the Zionists stop illegaly colonising other people's land and denying the Palestinians their legitimate homeland, we'll throw a big parade to celebrate the end of Zionist genocide, you can protest the fact."

How about you celebrate the persecution of the Jews of Syria, Iraq and the Yemen and we protest? Would you treat the protestors with such humanity? How about when you celebrate 90 years of Arab terrorism against the Jews of the Land of Israel (starting with Haj Amin al-Husseini), we protest? Oh sorry, that's not terrorism - that's "liberation struggle."

As for stealing our land - well let's not pretend it's just a hypothetical. The Arabs stole the eastern part of the Jewish city of Jerusalem and expelled all the Jews from the Old City. They subsequently didn't allow Jews (whether Israeli or otherwise) to pray at the Western Wall. In contrast, the Israelis allowed the Muslims to carry on praying on the Temple Mount - and even stopped Jews holding group prayers there. That's the difference: the Jews bend over backwards to accomodate the whims of the intolerant Muslims. The intolerant Muslims on the other hand prevent the Jews from praying at the holiest site in the Jewish religion - and then make feeble and dishonest excuses for it!

They even had the audacity to complain when the Arab squatters were thrown out of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City when it was rebuilt and returned to its rightful owners and residents. Talk about blaming other people for their own situation!