An Account- Street Battles, Then Boxed in Holles St.
a | 02.05.2001 01:53
I arrived on Oxford Street a little before 4pm. Heading west towards Oxford Circus and seeing the tremendous number of cops up ahead, me and my friend ducked up a pedestrian walkway to the north and found ourselves in the middle of a chaotic street battle in Market Sq./Eastcastle St./Great Titchfield St. intersection. Demonstartors launched firecrackers and flares along with plastic and glass bottles at the lines of police who were busy attacking unprotected people with shields and batons.
a
Comments
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Holles Street
02.05.2001 08:13
For now, it is our task to get the message out about what really happened yesterday, who inflicted the real violence and, more importantly, what the issues are that we were there for in the first place.
jjf
e-mail:
xdaydreamx@gmx.net
Countering draconian police methods
02.05.2001 08:25
John
Peaceful?
02.05.2001 08:31
Paul Edwards
Stupid copper
02.05.2001 08:56
What where the protestors doing with firecrackers? - I ask you
Why were the police mobilizing retards on horses?
Paxman
Fragile State
02.05.2001 09:12
Beavis
Oxford Circus
02.05.2001 09:21
They managed to provoke a chearful crowd of people into necessary violence. Holding us there for seven hours, wth no water, no shelter, no toilets.
What else could the crowd have done, but to try and get out, not once in the first five hours, was there any indication of when we would be allowed out. Mothers were on the pheon to their children, tourists missed their flight home, despite showing the police their passports and airline tickets.
Yes, their was violence, but it was not there at the beginning, it was not there when the police decided to "contain" the crowd, it only began when people realized they were subjec to what ammounted to a group arrest, to "prevent" violence.
spritzer
Violence came from one side only
02.05.2001 09:49
I explained to him what had happened at Coutts with the Flak-jacket Intimidation Society. He said OK, but that some people found it intimidating having large crowds of people around parading through the streets. I said OK, but that it wasn’t as if anyone had been taken by surprise as there had been at least 6 weeks warning. He nodded in agreement, unsure of what to say next. I walked away, my case well an truly rested.
The police were seen on the news desparate to whack someone, frothing at the mouth and wired like lunatics. I am a total utter fluffy, but I felt very angry towards the unnecessary actions of the riot squads - didn't do anything about it 'cos it's not my thang. They were running into crowds of people who weren't doing anything. If the protesters had been violent in their intentions, they would have attacked the police that THEY were surrounding, which did happen several times, but they didn't. Where did the violence come from? One side only. PROOF OF THE PUDDING OR WHAT? Greenity.
greenity
e-mail:
greenity@hotmail.com
Oxfor Circus
02.05.2001 10:16
The only choice they left us was to fight back.
In that one day, I've changed my view so drastically, improving police people relations - I think not.
spritzer
Stating the Obvious
02.05.2001 11:15
You are no doubt one of these public schoolboys on holiday who went along for a vicarious thrill and then wanted to run home to Mummy when it all got a bit close to home.
Grow up.
Nobby Cheese
e-mail:
nobby@cheese.com
Homepage:
www.steakandcheese.com
You are all hypocrites
02.05.2001 11:25
Your mummies and Daddies, your jobs in the capitalist system or your falling back on the welfare state or charity is how you bought those bicycles and articles of clothing, shampoo, food, shelter.
Who makes the buses and trains you take. CAPITALISM.
Go to Russia, go to China. See what 75 years of Communism does to a country. Grow children and enter the real world. Get a job you lazy scum!
Mike Smith
e-mail:
msmith@usa.net
Comment and question
02.05.2001 11:25
Hats off to the police for at least keeping the situation under control. So what if police were being heavy handed ? I think that if they hadnt been, we would have seen the kind of trouble we had last year and the trouble that happens every year. And to blame the police for being intimidating, grow up! it seems to be every anti-capitalists stock excuse for why things get ugly...fuck the pigs etc etc. What the hell did you expect at a mass demonstration with a history of violence ? a hug and a free teddy bear ?
My question regards the CCTV cameras - why was everyone cheering this frankly stupid act? CCTV could be used against us by the government, but who really cares ? It smacks a bit of paranoia to me. I only hope that if the idiot who pulled it down gets mugged or beaten up, its near the spot where he pulled the thing out of the wall and realises what a prat he was.
Sorry for sounding so negative - but yesterday pissed me and 95% of Londoners off. Capitalism is here to stay, its not nice, its not ethically sound, but its a damn sight better than any alternatives that the demonstrators did (not) come up with yesterday.
Ian H
e-mail:
london_ian@yahoo.com
Smash the system
02.05.2001 11:32
Quinten Carruthers
e-mail:
dog@string.com
Muppet
02.05.2001 11:34
Guêpe
Naomi Klein...
02.05.2001 11:35
Your boys took a helluva beating yesterday!!! My right arm hurts from all of that baton work!!!
PC Plod
e-mail:
copper@cops.com
Homepage:
www.batoncharge.com
you what
02.05.2001 11:35
rich city wanker
AwayDay in London
02.05.2001 11:35
Dirty Sanchez
e-mail:
arsemerchant@aol.com
Homepage:
www.smellyfinger.commy
Well done, the police
02.05.2001 11:39
Run along back to your self-sufficient communities ... oh hang on, I forgot: you're not self- at all. Far from it. You rely on the wealth and income of the very people you were whingeing about yesterday.
There's a word for that: hypocrite.
Bubbles
You filty animals haven't got a clue
02.05.2001 11:39
Soon all the paving stones would be cracked, and soon after they'd be taken altogether by lawbreakers like yourself. They'd be no jobs because nobody would start businesses under your crummy government. They'd be no music, because they'd be no electricity. Half the country would freeze to death in the winter and the other half would burn all the trees down trying to keep warm.
So that is the infrastructure, the tax system, and the environment f***ed for a start. Eventually the only way you could get society functioning at all would be to force people to work for state credits and price fix all the existing commodities. CAN YOU SAY NORTH KOREA? 3 million dead from famine recently! It wasn't the capitalist system that did that to them, it was the anti-capitalist system. It wasn't loans from the world bank because they didn't have any loans.
Read the economist and learn something about other nations. You are the spoil brats of capitalist society!
Derek Thompson
e-mail:
derek@freeserve.co.uk
Peace & Love
02.05.2001 11:41
Bobby
you what
02.05.2001 11:42
rich city wanker
Police done a fantastic job - with SCUM
02.05.2001 11:42
The police quickly identified that some idiots were handing our missiles & had weapons. Somehow or other they were not here for a peaceful debate.
We all have rights so do people wanting to go about their normal day to day things. If you don't like capitalism & brands don't buy them. That way they can't get gain from your 'hard earned' money.
Those that were standing around for several hours unable to go anywhere - hey it kept some of the muppets or should that be wombles from causing chaos.
Dave the Rave
from a clean person
02.05.2001 11:45
kit
The Police
02.05.2001 11:46
Unwashed of Hampstead
Homepage:
www.tiedyepashmina.com
Your all a bunch of wankers
02.05.2001 11:46
URGENT !
Trains and buses in Communist countries
02.05.2001 11:49
With respect sir I think you will find that trains and buses exist in communist countries as well as capatalist ones.
You are quite right they do exist, but they are crummy, old, they don't run to timetable, and they stink of urine because my government doesn't have enough money to replace them or even clean them. It spends the money in Moscow only, because that is where all of you silly westerners turn up and get an image of my country.
Please don't be so foolish. Capitalism works, it is not ideal, but it is better than communism. If you don't believe my let's swap passports, and you come and live in my Moscow room? Give me one year in your country and I'll make enough money to live the rest of my life here.
Kosta
Mikhalov, K
e-mail:
MK@mk.ru
Crustie wankers
02.05.2001 11:50
another city rich boy
Pitiful
02.05.2001 11:50
Ningle
e-mail:
mr_ningle@hotmail.com
arf arf!!
02.05.2001 11:52
dommer the great
You crusty Tupes
02.05.2001 11:54
Honourable George
Fucking Hell . . .
02.05.2001 11:55
Ningle
e-mail:
mr_ningle@hotmail.com
Congestion
02.05.2001 11:56
Rupert Mac
e-mail:
rupe@newsint.com
Homepage:
www.greedisgood.com
bunch of smelly cunts
02.05.2001 11:58
INTERNATIONAL CITY DAY OF ACTION
Next Friday will be the International City Day of Action. On this day, We ask you all to don your finest pinstripe, apply your monocles, glue Mobile phone to ear and then head off down to Brighton to disrupt as many dredlocked soap dodging men and women with dogs on string as possible.
Plan of action:
* to picket henna tattoo stalls
* throw cheap pewter jewellery into the sea
* occupy the dole office and glue the doors shut
* throw soap and other cleansing materials at the men with dogs on string
* dig up the road and line it with photocopies of huge salary slips
* hang the dogs on string with their string as a little ironic joke
* blockade the promenade with open top sports cars
* buy up all local supplies of scrumpy, special brew, snake bite and black, and roll ups - then throw them all in the sea
Police advice to all crusties at present: "Get a job you scrounging b*stards"
URGENT !
Crusty Vermin
02.05.2001 11:59
Welshman
do you pay with seeds and fresh air??
02.05.2001 12:00
A violent march against capitalism. You feed and clothe yourselves with money given to you by the government and by the taxes the working people you disrupted pay.
How can you be so hard faced to go against a government and people that support you?
Get a job, keep your nose clean, support yourselves and fooking get on with it. Life's too short.
Jason King
Homepage:
www.hypocrites.com
Haven't had so much fun since Euro 96
02.05.2001 12:01
PC Violent O'Bastard
e-mail:
psycho@nutter.com
Homepage:
www.getsomeofthatyasmellybastids.co.uk
mayday2001
02.05.2001 12:04
pope
Abuse of human rights
02.05.2001 12:04
Dan
e-mail:
Spkadam@iop.kcl.ac.uk
If the detention exacerbated a cold . . .
02.05.2001 12:07
Ningle
Sue the police for your cold
02.05.2001 12:10
Pyno
get a wash!!
02.05.2001 12:11
dommer the great
Sue the Police ? Abuse of human rights ?
02.05.2001 12:14
Normal Saturday afternoon that.
Get Real
But Dan?!
02.05.2001 12:16
Muckle Flugga
e-mail:
.
Homepage:
.
I'll sue YOU, you crusty gets
02.05.2001 12:19
You soft fookin' poofs.
P.C. Bubbles
mindless wankers
02.05.2001 12:22
dommer the great
Even more powerless situation?
02.05.2001 12:23
Homer J
binaries are stupid
02.05.2001 12:27
helen
Helen, I certainly didn't say that
02.05.2001 12:31
Pyno
They take flares .........................
02.05.2001 12:45
Luther Blisset
No nothing protest about anything muppets
02.05.2001 12:57
Except it's not. It's a partnership. Owned by the workers.
Capatalist numero uno
revenge
02.05.2001 13:16
Action. On this day, we ask you all to don your
finest pinstripe, apply your monocles, glue mobile
phone to ear and then head off down to Brighton to
disrupt as many dreadlocked men and women with dogs
onstring as possible.
Plan of action:
* to picket henna tattoo stalls
* throw cheap pewter jewellery into the sea
* storm the dole office and glue the doors shut
* throw soap and other cleansing materials at the
men with dogs on string
* occupy any spare grassland and start
layingfoundations for new 'superbank'
* hand out photocopies of salary slips
* hang the dogs on string with their string as
a little ironic joke
* set fire to unattended shopping trollies
* raid off licences destroying cans of special brew,
tennants super, thunderbirds and cheap cider
* destroy copies of any Levellers albums
Police advice at present to the men with dogs onstring
is:
* to get a job
* to get a haircut* have a wash* avoid police vans
* "to mind those stairs, sir, as they're very slippery
and treacherous, like - very similar to the ones down
the station, sir, if you catch my drift".
a g tant
Loosing the plot
02.05.2001 13:19
Funny too to see 'red' ken on the side of the police. some fuckin red he is. the prick.
P leaves
red ken
02.05.2001 13:35
spritzer
I am a capitalist wanker
02.05.2001 14:22
Nobody in his right mind would dare criticize capitalism. In its divers forms, it works, and better than other systems.
What most of yesterday's protesters wanted to point out was the fact that ultra-liberalism was not good. See ? Ultra-liberalism is the problem, not capitalism.
Someone up there made a comment about the state of the train system in Russia : under investment, etc. Well it's exactly the same here in the UK ! And the causes are the same : ultra-liberalism.
Think about it : what should a company do with its profits ?
I know this is over simplified :
According to a hard-core Communist, you should give it all to the employees.
According to even the most hard core Capitalism, you should re-invest it all in the company, to increase future earnings.
According to ultra-Liberalism, you should give it all to shareholders.
So ultra-Liberalism can kill a profitable company (ex. Danone in Europe) or give money to a donkey (ex. the dot coms). Ultra-Liberalism is not good for either the employees or the company. This has nothing to do with Capitalism.
Globalisation as part of Capitalism is a good thing in itself.
When it's done just to make money out of nothing, when it's nothing but speculation, money markets, it's not Capitalism. It's ultra-Liberalism.
Patrick
?
02.05.2001 14:40
ooo mince
Clever retorts
02.05.2001 14:53
JK
sadness all around
02.05.2001 15:04
i find it really sad that so many of you oh so grown up and clever capitalists are calling us all this and that but dont actually know what we are about, because all you know is what the daily mail/tv tells you. and all you got to show for that is abusive behavior here.
nuf said
jojo
jojo
e-mail:
jojo@redbricks.org.uk
Homepage:
www.redbricks.org.uk
Repetitive posts
02.05.2001 15:06
Cheer up, Mr. Troll, it'll all be back again next May, and you can get up at 5am again to flame us. :-)
Jon
wot jobs as u got then?
02.05.2001 15:20
your continual childish ridicule of yesterdays actions appears to be un-informed and bias towards some strange form of loutish right wing mouthy bullyboy tactics.
plase just leave us obviously dangerouse militants alone.
as to your inteligent criticisms of "communist" bus services. i think you will find that contrys in the third world that have been savaged by capitalism have far worse transport. if any at-all.capitalism a refined form of facism has created far more oppression than any real attempt at communism has ever created
no problem no crime
p.s grow up? ha ha ha
your "typical anarchist"
Trains and buses in capitalist countries
02.05.2001 16:12
bob
e-mail:
bob@bob.com
Check your facts
02.05.2001 16:34
What the hell do you expect for being a so called innocent bystander??? Your all the same
The police done everything they could to keep the peace and to keep things as calm as possible. They did not attack innocent people, they only used their batons if they had to.
Unlike you I work hard for my living and I do not agree with your so called peaceful protest. I work off Regent Street and your so called peaceful protest involved me being told I would get my head kicked in, being spat on and having cuts over my hand and bruises down my side just because I choose to get off my arse make something of my life and not blame other people for having more money than me.
Sort it out, in end the the police were trying to protect people's livelyhoods not ruining you fun and games, and all you managed to get out of yesterday was destroying the place and upsetting and frightening people who want to do a days work and get paid for it.
There is no way your going to be able to get your point across by acting like morons which in the end is what you did, try and act like grown ups for a change.
emma
Holles street getaway
02.05.2001 16:42
We then spent several hours wondering around the back streets around Oxford St and Regent St, trying to work out how to meet up with the rest of our group who had been trapped all this time in Holles St. When they finally emerged at 9.50pm they were in good spirits - having been kept cheerful by the Samba band.
I didn't witness any violence from protesters all day - unless you count stickering on lamp-posts.
Puddle
e-mail:
hempology@hotmail.com
your answer
02.05.2001 16:45
have a bath you dirty bastards
its bad enough working here with out having to smell you as well
emma
Fake comments from insiders
02.05.2001 17:02
It seems too much of a co-incidence that suddenly a load of 'average citizens' turn up at Indymedia.org, claiming that the protests were a failure. If they were such a failure, then how come these supposed 'members of the public' have discovered the site? That in itself is a good start, a point from which to discover some of the arguments within the anti-capitalist debate.
I was not directly involved in the protest, I was merely an interested witness. But because I ended up there in Oxford Circus alongside demonstrators, many of the media, businessmen, shoppers, tourists, passers-by and all the police, I at least have some insight into what really happened. There is some justification in the suggestion that police were too heavy-handed. Certainly they caused the person accompanying me to hyperventilate in the crush of people when the police marched in riot gear. Certainly they should not have requested everyone's name and address.
I witnessed a small number of people, mostly drunks, spoiling for a fight. But we're talking about a small handful out of 2,000 or 3,000 people. And many of them were wearing Nike trainers and Gap sweatshirts. Do you think these people are anti-capitalist protesters? No, they're just troublemakers, attracted by the huge publicity of the day or just the fact that suddenly 100 policemen march in one direction. I know I followed the policemen to see where they were going!
Before you say anything, I'm a tax payer, a voter, I don't draw benefits, and I hold down a job. Before you start with your stereotypes, remember that one day you could be detained in a Section 60 zone. Then think whether you'd like some freedom as a citizen too.
tobyslater
e-mail:
mail@tobyslater.com
Homepage:
http://www.tobyslater.com
why's suing the police so funny?
02.05.2001 17:22
Amnesty wouldn't take it as they won't take cases within the UK; Liberty could, depending on the circumstances
R
rochelle
greetings from spain
02.05.2001 17:39
Maybe we are only flyes for those big bankers but we are very disturbing flyes. Some people thinks we are a bunch of lazy guys but we're fighting for them as well, it's easier belive what tv says that think and try to solve the problems. I would like to say that people that there are other things more important than a new tie and your morgate. Police only defends rich from the poor, the privileges of a few against the poverty of the mayority, they defends your tv but at the same time they guarantee your boss to keep stealing from your salary...
We must fight by any means necesary, maybe we'll not win but we'll make enough noise to give then a big headache
Niflhel
e-mail:
fraugar@eresmas.com
?Hats off?
02.05.2001 18:04
-([Oo])-
It's called a search engine
02.05.2001 18:10
It seems too much of a co-incidence that suddenly a load of 'average citizens' turn up at Indymedia.org, claiming that the protests were a failure. If they were such a failure, then how come these supposed 'members of the public' have discovered the site?
Duh? I think it is called a search engine. Plus the fact that the site was linked from the BBC news website, which as I understand it is widely read all over the world. Maybe us average citizens, just want to make a point that we don't like a load of dole scrounging scum like you, screwing up the capital for a day, just so you can feel empowered. When you are supporting yourself and able to pay for the damage you do, then by all means I'll support your right to PEACEFUL protest.
By the way I think it is hillarious that 5000, global protestors worried about capitalism are urinating in the subway entrances at Oxford Circus. Where do you think all that piss goes? Into the Thames and then the sea, UNTREATED!!! I am sure that is great for the environment. Use a toilet next time you savages!
Tom Jones
e-mail:
tomjones@deli.com
HAHAHA
02.05.2001 18:18
BlackFlagz
IP log
02.05.2001 18:27
Should indyMedia post the IP address of the posters ? Assuming that the general public is made up of stupid morons who wouldn't be able to even use a DNS I would say yes. They are making generalisations about the protesters (like, we're all anarchists, students on holidays, jobless, foreigners - hold on, I am a foreigner !), so why can't I ?
Go on, change your PHP script !
access.log
HAHAHA you're the prick
02.05.2001 18:31
I propose that you scrounge the dole, so you can live in the big city (paid for by Capitalism), use public transport and work on the side for a bit of spare cash (supporting the capitalist economy once again), so you can buy you lentils and masturbate to a copy of "farmer's weekly", you hair animal loving fucker!
So don't say you don't subscribe wanker, because you surely do!
Mike Ormiston
e-mail:
morm@usa.net
anti-capitalism is critique of the status quo
02.05.2001 18:54
always anti
pray
e-mail:
alt-stop@excite.co.uk
What if the Status quo isn't that bad?
02.05.2001 19:07
The fact is that accidents happen. And it is also a fact that life looks unfair, to people who make less than £20,000 a year and live in London. But if we all make £100,000 a year then everything would just increase in cost. It is called Inflation. In otherwords, we can't all be rich, or even comfortably off. This is about as good as it is ever going to get. Some people are just supid, lazy or both (even though they would deny this) or are not prepared to take any kind of risk or sacrifice of their lifestyle and those people are always going to be pawns on the chessboard of life. Other people are going to take those risks, win and earn millions. Good for them. I hope it makes them happy. If you have ever bought a lottery ticket then you have NO RIGHT to complain about others being richer than you. You wanted to be rich yourself and being rich NECESSARILY means being richer than the majority of people around you.
That's life, that is the status quo. If you murder all the rich people and share their wealth out then with a few short years a few smart, risk takers would have accumulated it all again from all the lottery morons and the people flipping burgers at McDonalds. What are you going to do, kill the rich every ten years? If you do that the next group of rich are going to kill you first idiot! Remember, the golden rule, THE MAN WITH THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES.
You anti-capitalist scum are being tolerated. Step out of line more than one day a year and you'll be exterminated!
ANTIANTI
e-mail:
antianti@usa.net
your status quo
02.05.2001 19:31
i never bought a lottery ticket
i did not say kill the rich
some people do make sacrifices on their lifestyles and take risks and are clever, intelligent people but they are not rewarded as compared to others who step over anyone. These people have a conscience and do not just think of themselves.
the privatization of the railwork network puts profit over safety and it is not enough sacking the head of the company. more money should be put on assuring people's lives by Railtrack and it's an example of how bad privatization can be.
calling me an idiot does show your level of intelligence
always anti
anti
e-mail:
alt-stop@excite.co.uk
Some Reminders
02.05.2001 20:15
Give yourself a big pat on the back for slating the only pro-democracy movement in this country today.
So what if no alternatives to capitalism were put forward. I think the idea is to make a point.
The point I would like to make is that the "V" is inherent in the system. it is not the activists who produce munitions that maintain juntas around the world. I think you have an opinion to give but if you feel so strongly I think you must be angry about something. Bought our third £500,000 home yet?
I think the more we can high-light the issue of greed in our society, and lets not beat-around-the-bush here; consumerism IS greed. Consumption for its own sake. Yet we all buy into this sudective so readily. We worry about which jacket to buy not whether we can afford the jacket at all. Yet there are people in this country who spend thousands of pounds every night, on food or wine. You know let's get this into perspective, there is financial in-eqaulity in our society, as in others, and wherever there is marked deprivation you get the extremes: violoence, drug-abuse etc.
These are the real issues in our society today.
That is our message.
So instead of a war on drugs, how about a war on poverty.
Dee Man
Dee Man
e-mail:
dontakeit
thank you (sir) john stevens
02.05.2001 21:43
d.v.selvanayagam
e-mail:
morgrim@hotmail.com
What was Achieved
02.05.2001 22:31
Massive police mobilisation revealing the true nature of the capitalist state...
Unable to control the protest as it had no starting and finishing focal point as no collaboration occurred...
Cost estimated at $30 million...
If the union movement backed the protest, instead of boycotting it, more would have been achieved. More opportunities will arise in the future. Well done to all.
meberry68
e-mail:
meberry68@hotmail.com
Most of their e-mail addresses are fake too
02.05.2001 22:58
Here's one of my messages, to "
I don't think you properly read the message of mine which you responded to. I am a Londoner, I hold down a job, I am a taxpayer, a voter and I do not collect state benefits. And yet I was there and witnessed it for myself and came out with a lot of respect for most of the protesters.
There were many people in Oxford Circus exactly like me. It's not all "dole scroungers" as you put it. I was next to a businessman and there were hundreds of tourists, workers, shoppers and media mixed in with the crowd. If you had been stuck for six hours from all sides by police despite having committed no crime you might understand what some of these complaints are about.
Violence is of course never, ever acceptable but it is an absolutely tiny minority of troublemakers, most completely unconnected with any part of the anti-capitalism movement, that get publicised. In today's newspapers I spotted two pictures of so called protesters wearing Gap sweatshirts. Do you really think an anti-capitalist protester would wear Nike or Gap? No. They were troublemakers, hooligans, just like you'd get at a football match.
tobyslater
e-mail:
mail@tobyslater.com
Re: You Crusty Tupes by Honourable George
03.05.2001 00:08
The political systems which I favour - those which celebrate everybody DOING things over just certain people HAVING things - would also celebrate the fabulous potential of science and technology, and resources would be available for anybody who wanted them. This is not a dream, it is entirely possible if you look beyond the concept of "I'll only do it if they pay me to do it" , to which we have become so accustomed.
Globalisation? What's global about economics that can only function by keeping most of the world down to hold the minority up? What's global about the rich getting richer and the rich getting poorer?
Have faith! Computers are not the problem - but people who resign themselves to a life of competing, sniping and dissatisfaction are.
sophie
e-mail:
poph@another.com
samba party
03.05.2001 00:16
samba sally
hOpe lies between us
03.05.2001 01:20
and there are tears of blood in her eyes
mOya
e-mail:
aquietarmy@hotmail,com
It's good to talk
03.05.2001 02:51
Maybe a few people here should use some of this famous soap to clean out their brains.
Protest and Values / Change?
Lots of you say the protest was the wrong way to go about changing things. So what would you suggest? - I'm serious about this question.
Do you acknowledge that the systems we have now are failing both people and the environment as stated by UN reports and even the world bank's own internal review?
Assuming you do and can see the issues that motivate all sorts of people, what do you think is the best way to get these issues recognised and how can we tackle them?
Do you want a better world or would you rather ignore the injustice we see around us? What do you do yourself to help change things?
For note I work damn hard every day in a full time job. I also work with several charities and NGOs. Despite the fact that I earn good money I am opposed to the systems that exploit both people and the planet. This may seem like a contradiction but there are some companies and organisations that I would not work for on moral grounds - I am also aware that life is full of such contradictions almost daily, but that won't stop me from holding my views or trying to change things.
I also support the demonstrations (maybe you guessed?)
3 years ago the discussions about 'globalisation' and 'capitalism' were the domain of politicians, some NGOs and people who were called loonies. After the huge demonstrations of the last few years the issues are now on the agenda.
End note:
Technology and Capitalism / Globalisation
Why some of you seem to be pissed off or think it some huge hypocrisy to use mobile phones, computers and the Internet I can't work out. It's like a _really_ simplistic point of view. Many technological advances developed out of the military. I'm sure half of you can appreciate the values of those that oppose weapons sales to repressive regimes - but surely you wouldn't say that peace campaigners should not use communication tools right? It's the same thing here.
So this being a communication tool, and a rather good one, why not try talking and discussing?
Brandcityrollers
types of protestors
03.05.2001 03:45
i'm a non-violent no-work-anarchist company director, with long hair who bathed before going to oxford circus.
and yes, the most work i did in my life i did while on the dole.
rich
City Wankers Prove Stupid Mentality
03.05.2001 11:01
Where you are wrong in your criticisms highlights your naivity.
A few egregious points need to be cleared
Firstly, yes it is foolish to ridicule globalisation. That is not what a lot of protest about. Media have labelled the protest as anti capitalist and anti globalisation, which is wrong and a symptom of the media, but asides from this , the vanguard, considerably intellectuals and activists who wash and use mobile phones, are about realistically adjusting the capitalist system so that it benefits more people. Especially those in powerless positions. It is like saying all football followers are hooligans, sure most are quasi cave men, but never one subscribes to far right organisations.
It is easy to ridicule people, saying they are hypocrites, but how do you obtain these opinions, through media owned by multiantional players set on securing profit. Concerned that the agenda of the protest is recruiting people to be more critical of what slops they are offered.
It is naïve to think the protestors ripping up bricks and throwing at police want change. They want a fight, they are angered and marginalised and ignorant and very much like their far right cousins, unfortuantely they are positioned left, ultra. God bless there little anarchist hearts.
2)Profit is not evil. It creates jobs and stimulates progress, sure, but what is of concern from Paul Smith tie wearers to charity shoppers is these jobs are hardly fulfilling or sustainable, they are exploitative and dangerous. And what is the progress? So we have the choice between Coke or Pepsi? And the progress, seen in technology is another form of enslavement to work. Saying 'get a job' shows more about your mentality to do what your told, than providing imput to society. Calling activists lazy is like Saying Bill Gates is dumb.
Get a job, Chorus steel, 3000, Motrolla just sacked 3200, The bank of Scotland is merging risking 4000, Marks and Spencer closure..It will only get worse unless people start fight to pull these bodies, more powerful than governments and unelected by the people.
3)People are angered that the unchecked and unaccountable actions by companies, we do benefit from, in ways, destroying the planet and people. Whenever my colleagues criticise me, while we all sit around drinking pint after pint and winging we can’t afford a weekend away to Paris, I suggest that globalisation is a western myth perpuated by western ideaologies, people are starving and worried about organising finance for a water well, not whether they received a porno of Britany Spears. I have taken many steps to make a differnece and still enjoy buying clothes and items to fufill that lsot spirituality. But I also refuse to eat Mc Donalds, where Nike, etc. I write letters, like this and discuss read debate with all types, to ignore the issues is as stupid as blaming police for being too rough.
Hopefully I can create a profitable business that makes a differnece and helps those not as privildged living here.
There are idoits involved but generally the heart of this social movement is about equality and justice, something lacking in the current capitalist model. There is more to life than money, have you rung your mum lately?
Ilya
e-mail:
ilyaanthony@hotmail.com
Great!!
03.05.2001 11:28
comments here. (allthough probably the same people under different names have repeated a lot). This means that they come to the indymedia page and they do
read also the other side of the story, not only what The Mail and Mirror tell them.
Keep up, we want more here, not only the activists.
Some of the comments are funny. They some times say "get a job you poor bastards"
and sometimes they accuse us of being suns of rich people. We can't win
either way.
The fact that there is so much hatred towards the demonstrators (I wasn't there
but I agree with them) means that they/we are doing something right: The establishment
is worried and using every possible way to make us lose face. Let's not give up.
rif
Thank you Rochelle
03.05.2001 11:42
OK,OK, so maybe I did get a bit carried away with the 'cold' business... I was merely exploring some possibilities.
I was not on the demo, but just watched the reports on the telly. I found it intriguing that while various comentators reported that the police managed to prevent violence by the demonstators, the footage they showed was of the police batonning people....curious...
Also, echoing what some other people have said here, the issues were hardly touched on by the media, preferring to focus on what makes good copy, ie so called rioting. However, it seems to have backfired and people are sitting up now and starting to question the ethos of continuous growth, growth and more growth.. like a tumour.
That said, I thought this web page was just a talking shop, where people could say what they felt at the time, without being abused from both sides by right wing dysfunctional frontal-lobe neanderthal psychopaths but also by politically-correct know-alls. What's happened to free speech? and manners, for that matter. Some of the responses to not only my message but other peoples', make one despair of whether humanity has morally progressed in the past 40,000 years.
People who go on about the protestors being dirty and smelly and masturbating and so on remind me of a popular Spanish proverb which translates something like "Only the thief thinks everyone else is a thief."
Anyway, according to that esteemed Vanguard of new political thinking, the Evening Standard, the Wombles were advised to write the phone no. of their solicitor with a magic marker, on their arms, so one must infer that there is a legal angle which people who feel aggrieved may pursue.
My apologies to whomever emailed me. Maybe we should keep the discussion to these pages.
Dan
Who are you kidding??
03.05.2001 13:30
Lucas
mayday
03.05.2001 14:44
NOT GOING TO WORK ,WAKING UP AT MIDDAY I SPENT A COLD WET DAY IN MY LARGE FLAT IN CLAPHAM WITH THE HEATING TURNED UP
FULL WATCHING SOME ENTERTAINING TELEVISION.
SORRY IF SOME OF YOU HAD A HARD TIME GETTING HOME,GUESS ALL
I CAN DO IS PLAY YOU A SONG .
SHAME YOU CANT DANCE BECAUSE OF THE LEG CRAMPS,MAYBE YOU WONT WALK INTO SUCH AN OBVIOUS TRAP NEXT TIME.
tony
e-mail:
tonyrobinson7@hotmail.co.uk
Homepage:
various
ahhhhh, you poor picked on things.
03.05.2001 14:55
sony
e-mail:
soap@dodgers.com
LOL
03.05.2001 15:31
ZZ
Homepage:
http://flag.blackened.net
Enforced sterilisation
03.05.2001 15:33
Why don't the police just round up as many crusties as possible and sterilise them. That way...in a few years they'll die off and they won't have created any new ones.
Admit it.....it sounds practical doesn't it?
Next time they try and pull a stunt like this I think the police should stay well out of it. The army should be used instead.
cybergroover
e-mail:
cybergroover@hotmail.com
Hey groove idiot
03.05.2001 16:08
Genetix
everyone's gone mad.
03.05.2001 16:43
Firstly there is no point comparing this movement to the communist STATES that do exsist. These systems are still run by the state, therefore creating STATE COMMUNISM therefore no longer being real communism.
As human beings we were not born into this world to work for a faceless corporation that you, ( city slickers) work for. Your whole life is concerned with being as selfish as possible in order to produce wealth for yourself. You will also feel a lot happier, as this government and system fools people into beliving, wealth and happiness are related.
For those people who belive that capitalism has done good, you need to open your eyes to the rest of the world, the seven richest people in the world have more wealth than the poorest 48 countries, (but of course, its capitalism, so its okay) and more importantly than whose responsible for the violence is that after ten years, filled with promises from neo-liberal capitalists once again International Workers Day (read your history books) has become again a day for WORLD protest,I repeat, WORLD PROTEST. so to all you city slickers who don't seem to realise that we HAVE to live in a capitalist society but don't WANT to, get out of your little boxes and open your eyes to what happening around the world. Perhaps then you might realise the stupidity of many of your messages.
REFUSE RESIST RECLAIM.
Dan.
e-mail:
dphillc2n01299@kiadroch.kiad.ac.uk
Capitalists are the biggest anarchists of all
03.05.2001 17:36
The largest group of fishy, fundamentalist anarchists in the world are the capitalists. They are all acting in their own self-interest, they don't care about anyone else only about money, they have no moral-code, and they won't be told what to do by anyone.
So all you Daily Mail readers are actually just pouring abuse on yourselves by saying that anarchist smell. Learn to read a big, thinking-persons paper like 'The Gaurdian'. Then you might all realise that people like George Bush are out of control and bent on destroying the planet. He needs to be stopped. Anyone that doesn't agree with him can apparently just fuck off and be poor and probably completely contaminated by radiation due to his other stupid new plan to build a lot more nuclear power stations because all the oil is running out (apart from that juicy bit in the unspoilt antarctic, which he wants too). And if you do agree with his point of view, then you are even more stupid than you sound on-line. And you are still a smelly capitalist anarchist. So you lose. Ner-ner.
Kirst
e-mail:
kpillic2n01299@kiadroch.kiad.ac.uk
You 've got too much to lose...
03.05.2001 21:33
Let's face it socio-political progress has never been achieved by complacent people like you - gullible to state propaganda!!!
There is a recession coming up and your bonuses are gonna go down the drain, that's what happened last time. You may also have your house repossessed, but don't blame us for your misery. We live in an even more globalised world now - a world we didn't create, so good luck to you all...
Publica
e-mail:
publica@tarakan.demon.co.uk
the right to strike
04.05.2001 00:03
future man
Enforced sterilisation
04.05.2001 08:23
Rooibard
e-mail:
Rooibard@aol.com
Okay, I am a real member of the public -
04.05.2001 08:39
All I want to say is that I work in a building in the centre of town from which I could just about see Oxford Circus. I did see some small signs of violence at around 7pm or so when I was going home.
But for the biggest part of the day every time I checked I was amazed at the fact that nothing was going on at all. There wasn't even much noise except a few musical instruments and of course the police tannoys and sirens from their vans. All that I saw the protesters do was stand around in the rain. I can't fault them, I can't say that they were trying to bait the police or cause damage or any trouble. They just stood around with their banners in the air.
Simon
use your own name please
04.05.2001 08:41
Even if your name really is dan why don't you change it to something similar eg dane to avoid confusion? The last message by "dan" was not by this correspondent although that's the name I've used previously. Is there something fishy going on? What are you afraid of or trying to conceal?
dan - the real dan
VIOLENT PROTESTERS
04.05.2001 08:56
You're name says it all really but I won't linger too long on that one. You whine on about earning the money for our student grants but actually there are no student grants in this country and this is a well known fact. Your ignorance makes you look a fool.
Peaceful protesters were out in large numbers to try to make their voices heard. We are people who want to make the world a better place. I did not see anyone ripping up paving stones. The worst I saw (apart from the flares) was somebody throwing a can of beer. Immediately all those around him pointed to him, and shamed him for what he had done. "Let's keep it PEACEFUL" someone shouted. There will undoubtably be a few people who take the piss and cause trouble but mostly we were entirely peaceful and we disown those who use violence, not least because they cause narrow minded people like yourself to JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS and GENERALISE, assuming that because a few people were violent we necessarily all were.
Hugh Jones
COMMUNISM VS CAPITALISM
04.05.2001 09:11
Communism was a disaster therefore unleashed full scale free market corporate globalised neoliberalism is of course the answer! I don't think so!
Of course you have to earn money to survive but that doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge the system when that system is causing large scale suffering in the world. And no we're not hypocrites - you have to use some unethical products and services otherwise you can't eat or go anywhere or whatever - that's the evil of the world... but that doesn't mean we should shut up about it and not protest!
A word about "communism". True communism has never been achieved and so we are not in a position to judge it. When and where communism was attempted, the people trying to implement it became corrupt. But I'll tell you something mister land of the free, more slave labour is employed by USA corporations than any 'communist' government ever did. And you'd be shocked at how many of the world's dictatorships were set up by the CIA.. who incidentally even helped Saddam take power, beforing arming him to the teeth. The USA crushed Guatamala's fledgeling social democracy in the 1930s... the Nicaragua contra war where the CIA armed and trained terrorists, the military regime set up in Chad, the list goes on. The USA has caused far more damage internationally than communism ever did. OK the russian regime, especially under stalin was a complete disaster and russia is still in a mess but what we are campaigning against is the way that global corporations are trampling all over the rights of the people they employ in the third world, the way they are destroying the environment and so on, it's a perfectly decent thing to be protesting about that and just because a few people are hijacking the protests to cause a bit of damage is no reason for anyone to condemn peaceful protests in the way you have done. As for "grow up" you no doubt would have said that to the suffragettes and the civil rights movement, and the anti apartheid campaigners. No one ever succeeded at anything with your pessimistic outlook.
Hugh Jones
Some feedback on the hate mail from UK public
04.05.2001 09:16
You talk about hackneyed terms of capitalism vs communism - like that is the only division in politics. What is at the centre of this 'movement' is a desire to question all hierarchies and unaccountable power structures.
Yes, OK, that might be a dreamer's ideal but in face if the insanity on capitalism it's worth exploring. The reality is that if we continue on our current greedy exploitative path we're going to destroy our world - the facts are speaking for themselves in terms of the ecological destruction taking place on a daily basis.
Agreed, some people were wearing Nike trainers, computers are sold to us by large corporations - Indigenous Americans didn't invent the gun but it didn't stop them using it to try and defend their land from the legalised theft of settlers.
Most of all though - what I find really funny is that City types are talking about having a pro-capitalism march. Firstly, it would be great to watch as various sycophantic bottle-less wankers walked the streets being patted on the back by cops who know that you've got nothing challenging to say and no point to make. You know what, I say do it - go on, give it a try you spineless tossers - you couldn't even if you wanted because you're too busy losing yourselves in the mindless activity of unquestioning consumption. When, as you talk to your gathered masses of ten people down the pub and work out how to 'target' organisations that you don't like - without any interference from the state - you'll relaise exactly what goes intot the process of building a revolutionary movement that stands for something.
Yeah, I want a world build on equality, respect, non-violence. Get your blinkers off and you might realise that you share a lot more in common with your oppressed neighbours than you realised.
Dan
Grow up?
04.05.2001 09:17
Bemused
Re: rely on the wealth...
04.05.2001 09:24
mean that we want to rely on it. If we think the system is
unfair then why should we keep silent about it?
OK maybe if we went and lived in self sufficient
communities that would be better still but at least
protesting is better than nothing.
As for 95% of londoners being against the protest
well I dare say that in the southern states of america
there was a time when 95% were against the
abolition of slavery. That did not make 95% of the
population right. Sometimes there are people who
notice what's wrong with the status quo when those
around them have not done. Sometimes it's
necessary to go against the grain.
Having said that, it is NOT EVEN TRUE that most londoners were against the march. The (rather right
wing) Evening Standard's poll indicated that 70%
were in fact in support of the demonstrations.
The 'violence' that MayDay supposedly has a history
of is only a very small amount of violence. The media
always tended to ignore the peaceful majority.
OK sure the police have to protect shops and stuff
but you should have seen the way the cops were
attacking genuinely peaceful people with their metal
sticks and the way they held people ILLEGALLY for
hours on end and the way they ILLEGALLY took down
people's names and addresses and took photographs of people.
There were a small minority of people who went to cause trouble... and also a minority of people who let
the police intimidation get the better of their
patience... but most of us were there for a perfectly
valid reason and we will not stand for these insults
which you are pouring on us because of the behaviour
of people we don't even know.
Mr S
dear blackflagz
04.05.2001 09:30
re: hahaha
Missing the point
04.05.2001 09:33
1. To the 'protestors'. You lost. The coppers and establishment won. You had a measly 2000 at Oxford Circus and I saw what happened from right there. The "jag" you trashed belonged to a local doctor and you nicked some tellies from a shop belonging to an immigrant worker who has built his business over the last 20 years. SO why not talk about being more effective do a little less whining about police brutality when there wasn't any? Why no weed out the people (including the wombles) who make day's like Tuesday such a farce. Perhaps a little less back-slapping about "we had it massive" and more talk about how you gpot it wrong would help.
2. To the happy people on the other side. Should nobody ever question the people who govern us and hold them to account? I don't mean putting a cross on a bit of paper every 5 years, I mean genuinely questioning the way that we are dealt with by those in control. Who gave them the right to run our (and that means all of our) lives. Does nothing need to change?
Dave
e-mail:
davejp38@hotmail.com
Re: Urinating in the station
04.05.2001 09:47
made it up. How very grown up of you.
Maybe some people did it because the police
wouldn't let people have access to toilets...
But I certainly didn't see anyone do it and I know
for a fact that your accusation that 5000 people did
it is a shameful lie.
Shame on you.
Exaggeration is the lowest form of wit.
Mr S
Extermination
04.05.2001 10:08
I want the accident not to have happened in the
first place.
Yeah sure accidents happen but they tend to happen
more when big business is continually putting profits
before safety and there is A LOT of evidence to support
the claim that this is indeed happening more and more.
The status quo is BAD when our neoliberal form of
capitalism is fuelled by the exploitation of the poor
in the UK and the ultra-exploitation of the ultra poor
in the sweatshop factories - such as the Mexican
maquiladoras and Africa's "Free Trade Export Processing Zones" - of the thrid world, where talking and sometimes even smiling is expressly forbidden and the factories are surrounded by barbed wire fences.
I don't like the way you accuse us all of being one homogenous group. There was an enormous wealth of diversity out on the streets yesterday. Some of the people knew what they were talking about and some wre just tagging along. Well done for coming out with some arguments though as opposed to playground insults. There's a lot wrong with the status quo. It's conservatives like you who opposed every progressive movement in social history, from giving working class people the vote, to the NHS, the anti apartheid struggle and so on.
And by the way, it does help, when accusing someone of being stupid, to at least make sure that you have written the word stupid correctly.
As for extermination, that sounds like a decidely nazi style threat. The thing is yeah, more and more people are now supporting this movement, members of the general public, the wage earning public.
You say that anyone can go and make a load of money but the thing is a lot of people are lacking in self esteem and a lot of people don't really have a lot of faith in themselves.. they can't see themselves going out and making a million pounds, maybe they could but they're not going to if they've been brought up on a poor council estate where they've had it repeatedly drummed into them that their life is not going to be a success.
If you're rich and you've done it entirely out of your own initiative, like Thomas Hardy's The Mayor of Casterbridge, then admire you for that but not everyone has that sort of faith in themself and not everyone finds it that easy to have the confidence to actually try.. it's not about being lazy, it's about being DISILLUSIONED. You can't dismiss the poor as lazy, it's too much of a cooincidence that most poor people come from poor families.
I've got shit loads of work to do so I can't be arsed to turn this into an essay, but um... yeah please don't exterminate anyone.
Hugh Jones
Anarchism
04.05.2001 10:32
NEOLIBERALISM IS A FORM OF ANARCHISM.
Mr S
Political ignorance?
04.05.2001 12:00
I took a day off work on Tuesday (my first since Christmas) to take advantage of my 'rights' to freedom of expression and association. I was in Oxford Circus for seven hours to protest quite specifically about the destruction of the environment, labour rights and democracy across the world by a systematic glorification of profit over human rights.
Sufficed to say that I saw up close the spittle laced grimaces of pleasure by the police as they waded in to us for no reason.
The police that day followed much of the rationalisation of the choads attacking protestors on this list. They say 'get a job' and 'stop wearing trainers' and 'dont you like buses'. It is a symptom of the ignorance within our society that people honestly think that 'anti-capitalist' implies the destruction of money or labour. What complete bollocks!!! The whole point is that the current system we live under is a rarified form of wage-labour in which money in which social justice has been binned in favour of what is most efficient.
The choad brigade also seem to be very proud of the fact that they are aware of multinational abuses (eg. sweatshop labour) but have either 'moved beyond such a juvenile stage' or that they don't care and neither should you because its doesn't directly impinge on our lives in this country.
How self-absorbed do you have to be not have 'matured'to the point where you reject information on alternative systems of governance or third world poverty in the face of millions of avoidable deaths a year. That is not maturing or growing as a person. That is being a pathetic individual in a self-serving bubble. How do you live with yourselves - is it the paperwork and lists of figures telling you that if you achieve a growth in realisable customer assets in the first quarter, Satan might remove his scaly pecker from your larynx! Just a question but is it better to wear Nike and campaign for a new system that curbs their abuses or just wear them and laugh at Vietnamese children squatting in filth. HOHOHO
As the great Bill Hicks said - its a simple choice between fear and love.
All power to the fluffy wombling brigade
Onwards to Genoa...
Jim
e-mail:
jim.ansell@sociologist.com
Missing the point
04.05.2001 12:11
If you want to read something which gives a balanced view....scroll up and read Missing the Point by Dave.
Anyway, if you ask me, politics is a total red herring....we have no control over what others are doing. More important to develop your own kind heart, wisdom and spiritual life....let the politicians and anarchists fight it out....this sort of nonsense has been going on since the beginning of time.
A lack of religious values is what is wrong with this world. If we treat everyone with kindness...this is the best way to help the world.......
More compassion is needed.....the world has enough people trying to control each other through politics. We need to work on our own minds.
We're all going to die eventually. Political opinions will be of no use to you then....
cybergroover
e-mail:
cybergroover@hotmail.com
bhahtee
04.05.2001 12:32
bhahtee
e-mail:
bhahtee@bhahtee.com
religion....good excuse for a war
04.05.2001 12:40
Biggest con since they told me the ten commandments were a girly mag
moses
Taxes
04.05.2001 12:47
As for The Wombles, what an inspired idea! Nice one!
B. Dellar
violence
04.05.2001 13:37
I know there are a number of individual legal actions being taken against the police, but if anyone is interested Young Socialist Action are mounting a mass civil action against
the police for unlawful detainment and need witnesses who were held in Oxford Circus.
loob
e-mail:
fascist_pig@the-police.com
tough
04.05.2001 13:40
Anyone who is naive enough to think that the actions on MayDay were going to be completely peaceful needs to think again. After all your little protests have somewhat of a history be they Mayday J18 or N30.
symapthetic - not
The split in society (sic)
04.05.2001 14:37
I wasn't in London for M1 this year because I've had to take a permanent job, (I was able to be at M1 last year and J18 before that because - being a contractor at the time - I was not working, and I do NOT claim the dole), however, I do support the protests.
There are several points that need clarifying -
i) Communism - the only country in the world that has come anywhere near communism is Cuba; Russia and China are similar to western countries, with the difference that once every four years or so, the western countries give their voters the illusion of choosing who is going to tell them what to do for the next four years.
ii) Capitalism - is the system that makes profits out of individual basic needs; take the utility companies - to live in the western world, it is necessary to use electricity, water, gas etc. IT IS MORALLY WRONG TO MAKE MONEY FROM SELLING GOODS OR SERVICES THAT ARE BASIC REQUIREMENTS FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE.
iii) 2000 years is nearly up; there are those of us who realise this, and are putting things in place so that we can be of help WHEN this civilisation (sic) collapses. At that point, I hope that 'Richard Cheese' (or whatever his name was/is) and his friends ask for our help - because I will take great pleasure in telling him that he's known of the issues for so long but done nothing, and now he can PISS OFF !
That's my rant over - I could carry on for a few more pages, but I've a shell script to finish writing before I go home tonight ! - love and light to all nonviolent protestors; smackerooblurdees to all bigots !
(There is no longer any fence - you are either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. I know it's a cliche, but it had to be said).
Paulus
The truth of the day
04.05.2001 15:12
The reality of the May Day protest was that the majority saw it as a day off work and had no interest in any political agenda or cause however within that majority was a hard core of anti establishment agitators determined to cause trouble (some of whom I recognised as long term members of the extreme right !) Democracy works, use it.
Sorry can't say
My five pence
04.05.2001 15:27
How ironic that such practices should have been seen as a reality on the UK mainland while the Bloody Sunday enquiry reached a publicity peak.
Tolpuddle, Peterloo, the Chartists - the UK has a tradition of repression, and rights have always been won against a government which does not fear to hurt its citizens. We invented concentration camps, you know, during the Boer War. That is the historic truth about British authoritarianism.
One excellent argument once used to justify the slave trade was that a slaveowner had a stake in the slave. Slaves were fed and looked after. Slaveowners cared for their slaves far more than employees for their workers. After all, the logic goes, if you rent a car you will drive it into the ground, if you own it you'll look after it.
In the early nineteenth century before the abolition of the slave trade slaves' living conditions were improving - this is true. At that time the decision was made - a decision I support - to abolish the trade. We are free men and women here now.
Many more than 6,000 people believe capitalism to be imperfect. Many more hate the robotic conformity of our working lives. In London, a recent BMA report said, 1 in 5 people are too tired and stressed out to have sex. There is homelessness and poverty across the planet. In Africa many millions of AIDS victims had medication cut off as they could not afford it. They were used to test AIDS medicines for richer Western sufferers. That's the true face of capitalism as it is today. It's a parable - to have bread on your table, someone somewhere else has none.
This world produces enough food for all the people. But only enough profits for some.
Living conditions in some places are improving. This does not make the system we live by right. Nor is it the best we can dream of.
So a march like May Day is a clarion call. A shout to all the people. In all the countries. Of all political persuasions to stop for just one moment and demand that governemnts and leaders across the globe address the commonly-held desire to improve the way we live. To make it better for all of us. It's that simple.
Without marches like May Day, leaders (who are all as lazy and incompetent as all humans are sometimes) will do nothing but tend to the status quo. Nothing will change, because at the end of the day, politicians are like secretaries - everyone dreams of an empty in-tray, why make work for yourself?
May Day was a signal. A flame. A candle in the wind - but that metaphor has also been globalizeed now. It asks us all, however we see ourselves politically to address the issues. Think about them.
Globalization and the evolution of trans-national corporate oligarchies, when combined with the profit motive and in a situation where large firms can exist outside of government control can only lead to cheaper and cheaper goods and services. Good in the short term sure, but for every penny off that loaf of bread, someone somewhere is starving. In the end the globalized companies must continue to exploit and cut corners to keep costs down. It's the nature of capitalism. It leads to greater and greater excesses and is justified by the old argument which says "If I don't do it, someone else will, and that's the end of us."
Now, I have been unemployed, I have been a crusty, I have been homeless. I have also been born, been hurt, lost children and loved ones. Like every other human I've been alive, most of my life. I am a worker now, I earn good money, and had become politically complacent.
This has changed. I will not ignore the issues raised by May Day. I will not support a government that will not legistlate for corporate responsibility, preferring instead to intimidate those of its citizens that want to use their democratic right to protest to insist that corporate responsibility be enshrined in Law.
I will not ignore the need to fill government's In-Trays across the globe. I will not say 'what's the use?' 'What's the use' would never have invented the wheel, fire or even language.
I am with those who dream the impossible dream. I am ready with my pen to explore the dreams. I intend spending most of my free time reading and writing to that end.
Absolute respect to the people who showed us all how little we value our own conscience. Absolute respect to the dreamers, protestors and prophets.
Respect to you all.
Jon the baptist
Plod
04.05.2001 15:28
So, "Constable" - can we expect these "members of the extreme right" you say you identified as troublemakers to be brought to justice? I will read my newspapers with great interest awaiting that one. Except it sounds like utter bollocks, along with your comments about people just treating it like a day off work...
*
my ten pence
04.05.2001 15:57
/
Real religion
04.05.2001 16:19
Real religion is about wisdom and compassion.
cybergroover
e-mail:
cybergroover@hotmail.com
well done the police!
04.05.2001 17:07
ben
e-mail:
ben7648@hotmail.com
In reply...
04.05.2001 17:23
You are the one who needs to grow up. Your bizarre message was flawed in every way. I was not at the Carnival Against Capitalism for a 'vicarious thrill', I was there because of the ills of the world in which we live, caused directly by the pursuit of profit at the expense of all else, a sympton of the unrestrained capitalist system. For example;
19,000 children die a day because of third world debt related problems ( UN figure ).
There were over 10 000 000 starvation deaths worldwide in 2001 alone.
Over 90% of the Brazilian rainforest, the participation of which in the global ecosystem is essential to all live, has been cut down
Over sixty five thousand species driven to extinction so far
Over four billion people worldwide suffering malnutrition, the number is increasing
Do not accuse me of making this up, Wake Up! I could go on at great length about the problems that I, like the all the people at the carnival ( not riot as the media said ) who actually cared, protested about peacefully, ( a few violent individuals are inevitable, esp when people are herded and pushed back by mounted officers wielding metal truncheons ), I have attempted to be fairly concise.
Trim
e-mail:
madtris@excite.co.uk
i despair
04.05.2001 17:39
Trim
e-mail:
madtris@excite.co.uk
?
04.05.2001 17:52
?
HEY BEN!
04.05.2001 18:02
BlackStarz
What is funny...
04.05.2001 18:20
Some more privaleged, who are well aware they are more privaleged than others, find other methods to live other than supporting large, shit-ass companies who screw everyone over and the government who suppresses anyone critical of the "status quo." They are definitely not a majority.
This is not the 1960s, so get your heads out of the fucking history books. The people involved are totally different. What they are fighting for is completly different. It isn't just a matter of smelly, lifestyle, elitest white hippies dissing everyone for not being as cool as them while they sit around and do drugs and live off their wealthy parents or the government. THAT HAPPENED WITH A SUBCULTURE FROM THE 1960s.
Where is the source of these accusations? Did the people out there in London look and act anything like "hippies"? Even if some, although I really saw none, had beards and long hair, it doesn't mean they are also subscribing to the beliefs of a subculture from the 1960s as they are just as unlikely to subscribe to the way of thinking as mountain people or pre-civilization human beings.
If you were out there able to smell the people you condemn, you would also probably be complaining about how shitty it was to be detained for 7 hours for no reason...other than the potential for "disruption" by a small group of people. Well, why don't they outlaw football matches as well? How about ban bars and surround them by riot police and super-vehicles? People often get rowdy and violent there!
Also, if you note, as 100 other people already have, most of the worst negative comments came one after another from around 3AM-5AM in the morning. Really, who needs to get a job? Someone who can waste 2 to 3 hours posting about how smelly people are and how they live off the government and don't work, or the people out there celebrating a day ABOUT THE ADVANCEMENT OF LABOR RIGHTS such as the 8 hour workday in the USA?
The Communist (State-Capitalist) countries coopted labor day, as did Communist run labor unions. It started because of anarchist laborers, workers, who continued to protest against the state and companies who continued to kill and torture them. It didn't start because Stalin thought it would be a good day to express Communist-pride. It isn't celebrated by the people you condemn today because of Communist-pride, or for Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Marx and all of those other scumbags. The boring, non-festive, marches in Moscow and Cuba were, and none of us want any part of that shit, or we WOULD go there. We do not want to live in a miserable world in which the state becomes the single corporation, just as we don't want to live in a miserable world controlled by an unsustainable ideology that benefits the pockets of a few, at the expense of billions and the earth they live on.
Joe Hill
slightly overdramatic i fear
04.05.2001 19:00
Thank you for your concern but i think you are over-reacting - don't worry about me, martial law on my doorstep etc...
I earn a quite ridiculous amount of money selling magazines to tour operators. Many of the articles in the magazines are written by indigenous people in third world countries who are rewarded very well. I promote tourism which gains them access to the Yankee dollar.
I have homes in London, Cannes, San Francisco and Cape Town and employ lots of people who happily bring up their families on the wages i pay them. And when the 'famine' you predict happens, i will have the means to feed those i love whereas you will be drinking from puddles and chewing your smelly mate's leg.
'This man/woman made hell'???!! What are you - some evolving species?!
Anyway, off to Caprice to pay £200 or so for some murdered cow and pissy wine.
Ben
ben
suggestion for Joe Hill
04.05.2001 19:03
ben
Last Gasp!
04.05.2001 20:29
BlackStarz
middle ages, bracknell?
04.05.2001 21:56
p.s. mmmmm, Blackstarr, can smell the Rib Shack down the road.....do Lions 'murder' animals too?
ben
Voice in the wilderness
04.05.2001 22:11
You can be responsible and opt out. What you can't do is claim victories you didn't have and set yourselves out as saviours. I saw the wombles from ten feet away and they couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding. All the groups that you quote (luddites, suffragettes, chartists) got their way through having the courage of their convictions. You just want to be able to run riot through other peoples stuff without taking the pain. Sounds like crap to me.
P.S. my e-mail is a real one. Let's see how many mails I get telling me to watch my windows. How many of ou can say the same?
Dave
e-mail:
davejp38@hotmail.com
'Joe Hill' vs 'The Hippies
04.05.2001 22:48
The protest movements of 'The Sixties' still have a lot of ideas (and lessons) to offer us - from the civil rights campaigns in the US and Northern Ireland, to the 'pranksterism' of The Yippies. Many of their ideas and aims WERE the same. Don't make judgements from ignorance like other contributors to this 'discussion' .
Stay Free!
Jimi Hendrix & The Spirit Of May '68
one more... .. .
04.05.2001 23:59
blackSsSsSstar; ]
the anti protester crew
05.05.2001 08:20
popshot
e-mail:
zakface@hotmail.com
Tough Shit - Stay at Home
05.05.2001 08:35
Police action was designed to stop trouble on a large scale and it worked. great policing of a bunch of unwashed, unorganised and stupid rent-a-thugs.
next time I hope they keep you penned in longer and break a few more heads.....And Wombles, ha, ha I was there in the line facing you when you attacked the police upon arrival behind 'ya big blue tarp'. Raggedy ass, they look like walking trash cans...Smell like it too.
Stop bitchin, get off the streets and leave it for normal people to go about their business.
At least I dropped 1 womble for sure and 1 stinking student too.
rioter basher
e-mail:
womblebasher@ihatewombles.co.uk
WTF?
05.05.2001 10:06
Well,here we are again,retarded men and women stuck with an infantile obsession that they hope will damage protestors convictions and future outlooks to protesting because of a playground term used to describe them ... sorry folks , we're grown up and it does'nt work any more in the 'real'world,it might do in your places of work,in your homes or in the pubs you go to when your trying to alienate each other through ridicule... but not here ...
Bigger heads are rolling and being exposed through actions like the mayday protest and a myriad of other events circling the same issues...your place is not here , maybe when you grow up and wake up-some positive discussion can be made...but not here,not now,not with that 'smelly'thumbed nose mentallity...your time...has not yet come.
All-power-corrupts
To The Police On This Board
05.05.2001 10:11
I ended up caught in Oxford Circus not because I was protesting but because I was inquisitive and interested in what was going on. Foolishly I followed a train of about 50 policemen marching into the area. None of them told me not to enter. Once we had been contained within Oxford Circus, I saw a number of businessmen, a security guard, lots of media people, a few tourists and shoppers, a mother and her three teenage daughters... we were asking the police why they would not let us out. "You might cause damage" was the reply. I can't understand why, from 2 - 4pm or so, there was no effort to distinguish non-protesters, tourists, shoppers etc from protesters. Please tell me. We wanted to leave, but were not allowed to. How can this be for our protection.
I was shocked when the police first pushed on the crowd. I have never witnessed riot tactics before so couldn't believe it when the policemen I had been talking reasonably with suddenly locked together and started pushing into us all. How can the policemen push on a businessman in a suit? How can they push on a mother and her teenage kids? They weren't doing anything wrong. People were screaming and crying. I am grateful that one of your WPCs finally pulled out the person who was accompanying me- but she was hyperventilating in the crush and in quite some danger. It was like being at the front row of a rock concert. How can this be for anyone's protection?
I did spot a few potential troublemakers. One was a hardcore protester type who I later saw in the papers being arrested. But I saw a few drunken tramps milling around and a couple of skinhead football hooligans (in Nike trainers and Gap tops) deliberately trying to antagonise members of the crowd and not getting their support. You had plain-clothes officers in the crowd, why did they not signal to remove the drunken, violent elements of the crowd first? I don't understand why many of the violent elements were left in the crowd for so long. Why didn't the police help protesters try and weed out the violent elements that get attracted - I did see protesters asking police for help doing this... there requests were not heeded. Why not?
Personally I resented being asked to give my name and address before being allowed to leave. Since I had done nothing wrong, was not a protester, and had actually been keen to exit the area, I do not understand why I was being asked to give my details. Do you think this was really needed, especially since policemen were filming the crowd anyway?
I actually think that - in terms of the fact there was little damage and few injuries - the police did a good job. But I think many average members of the public - not protesters - walked away from Oxford Circus that afternoon with a lower opinion of the police. I didn't like seeing police hitting people with truncheons just to get them back. I didn't appreciate the taunting tannoy messages ("move to the middle and you'll be allowed out" "you are being detained to avoid a breach of the peace and damage to buildings") and I didn't appreciate hearing policemen being rude to ordinary members of the public: "you should have thought about that before you walked into Oxford Circus", "these are big boys' games" etc. Do you think holding the crowd for so many hours gives a good impression of justice in the UK? How do you think any of those shoppers or tourists caught in the crowd are going to feel about the police?
And to the policemen and women - I know you work hard and do what you think is best, I know you follow your orders well. But I also know that some of you enjoyed the day very much- I heard some policemen saying it. As much as you claim it's a "day off work" for protesters, it's a day of excitement for you too. And as much as there are violent elements in the crowd at Oxford Circus, I witnessed that there were violent elements among the police as well. Would you disagree with this?
tobyslater
e-mail:
mail@tobyslater.com
Homepage:
http://www.tobyslater.com
scroungers?
05.05.2001 13:03
A significant portion of our tax-payers money goes on supporting the lifestyle of you rich captalists - hyow many of you earning 40k a year plus actually pay tax ? How many are self employed , paid in stock shares , corporate largesse and the kind . It is the poor who subsidise your lifestyle and your capitalist system not the reverse .Our taxes - paid via paye - remenber we get no allowances for meals , entertainment , expenses , and all the other junkets, you lap up- subsidise big busines , the rich , the banks and global capitalism , providing a great big cash trough from which you lackeys of the corporate state swill and stuff your fill . You subsidise us ? You pay taxes ? Since when ? A hard worker and anti-capitalist .
Alan James
Stupid
05.05.2001 13:50
bobby
e-mail:
9904860@tay.ac.uk
fuck the
05.05.2001 13:59
TO ALL STUPID CUNTS LEAVING MESSAGES
"behold your future executioners"
person
e-mail:
erghy65y
!Fuck tha police!
05.05.2001 18:06
Fuck u too
Crunch!
06.05.2001 07:03
and start eating the armoured ones.
Cop-muncher
e-mail:
yummy@canibalism.org
national lotteries needed
06.05.2001 08:01
proffr@fuckmicrosoft.com
working hard after a hot bath
06.05.2001 08:06
can't the critics of the anti-capitalist movt. think of anything else.
not on the dole
e-mail:
still smahing capitalism
Only me
06.05.2001 12:40
P.S. On the 'smell' issue, there was a bit of a hum at Oxford circus on Tuesday but then it always does smell. I couldn't tell who minged more and I can't be bothered to find out.
Dave
Hell hole in Holles Street
06.05.2001 14:25
As luck or lack of it rather has it, I ended up being penned in, just yards away from the objective, right in front of John Lewis Shop on Holles Street. Although the media portrayed the event like some kind of victory for the coppers, I can safely say that I had probably the most positively charged experience in recent years. We were literally surrounded by riot police in combat gear, some of us got arrested, but tried and tried to break through increasing number of police officers. Rain poured on us relentlessly and the choppers hovered in smaller and smaller circles above us but we could not be crushed. All of us, individuals with their lives and problems and who knows what else, suddenly became one large heart beating the same rhythm; our team of drummers did an excellent job to keep that rhythm going all day long. The enforced detention did nothing to deter us from bonding and forging new links, sharing experiences and optimistic plans for the future. Many of us were wearing banners stating different political views and affinities – and it was so nice to see that diversity around us – but we all shared a common belief in freedom for human kind. At one stage, I had a distinct feeling that we were growing bigger and bigger and the coppers were shrinking to a dwarfish size; during one of the many forward surges we had, attempting to break through the “boys in blue” cordons, I came inches close to one of the riot police cops; although half of his face was covered with a mask, I could see his eyes growing bigger and showing without a doubt real fear of the magnitude of positive energy coming from us. That is why we can be so proud and overwhelmed by the whole experience. Being penned in and forcibly detained for several hours, unable to tend to our basic needs, beaten and arrested, we, the invisibles:
 Made the police look stupid and powerless with their pitiful resort to provocation and illegal imprisonment,
 Shut down probably the most emblematic commercial avenue for the corporate capitalism, causing some 20 million pounds loss of dirty business in the bargain,
 Showed that no amount of police and technology the Establishment employ to the level of overkill had any effect on us.
The whole event brought us even closer to each other, made us better prepared to step into the new era for humanity, made us hungrier for freedom.
I disagree with some of the views expressed by the corporate media that we lack purpose or simply seek the attention of the cameras. It shows how desperate the system has become to stop this relentless march towards freedom. Behind every banner, placard or chant we used during Mayday, there is diversity and mutual respect for each others’ views, there is a powerful will to expose the pre-packed TV delivered consumerism life-style and destruction of our planet. Capitalism belongs to Jurassic Park along with communism and military dictatorship. We owe it to us to stop this archaic nanny state that has got batons and rubber bullets and choppers to enforce a “democracy” for the privileged few.
Nicole Rafaelo
e-mail:
romlish@yahoo.co.uk
natural odour
06.05.2001 18:59
Isn't it obvious that if you detain 2000++ people at the same crowded place for 7 and a half hours, it's going to be smelly?
By the way, apart from your criticism about the protesters not having 'won the fight', Dave, I don't see any arguments about why it is wrong to demonstrate and protest about such issues of _life and death_. Would it be better keep on our daily jobs - or just be kind, religious people and hope the world's probems will solve themselves, as some posters here suggest?
Maybe people in Britain are not suffering so much, maybe if they try really hard they can enjoy some of the benefits of upward mobility (although if you come from a poor family your chances are diminished) but shouldn't we do something to stop multinationals exploiting people in poorer countries?
And in any case, people have the right to protest. Any government that tries to stop people from protesting is getting closer to becoming a totalitarian regime.
Demi
Demi
e-mail:
kode@suspicion.co.uk
Violence
06.05.2001 19:19
So if these people are the main problem, and the police won't help the 'real' protesters get rid of them, maybe next time it would be a good idea to come up with a womble-like group that would try to control them... I know this could lead to clashes between protesters and 'parasites', but there should be a way...
Just a thought
Demi
Demi
e-mail:
kode22@suspicion.co.uk (this is correct)
You already tried and failed !
07.05.2001 23:02
We don't sit around bitchin about the low state handouts, we actually go out and get a job or build a business from scratch.
Personally I couldn't give a flying F*** about kidsdying in other countries, so what ?, when it affects my house, I'll worry. I'll save my cash and work harder. Yes and you are right, we pay accountants to minimise our tax liability, that's legal.
What isn't legal is not paying council tax, not paying taxes and claiming dole whilst working in low paid work.
Bottom line is the vast majority (very few of the real 'protesters') actually have jobs or contribute anything, no, they would rather turn the debate into a socio-economics arguments and try the 'capitalist'gag. Well you are over 18, VOTE.
That's the system, you must like living here, no other country would put up with your 'reclaim the street' type shit. Don't like it, go somepalce else, we'll be glad to see the back of you.
So get washed, get smartened up, use that brain you profess to have and get a fuckin job.
You hit the streets and failed..Poor effort, yes we know, there is always next year and you don't think that next year, they'll out-police you again. Think on, stop bitchin and change your life. History has a habit of breeding dissident factions, who twenty years later have houses and mortgages and credit cards and take nice holidays. , mega protest, now look at the protestors ! Point taken.
You came, you tried, you miserably failed. The end. (I wish)
???
e-mail:
laugh@failedriotday
51st State
08.05.2001 08:43
Enjoy it while you can. The Yanks are coming. Wall Street is crashing.
Join the the Protest before it's too late.
Happy May Day!
Scrubbed and squeaky clean Gringo
Greedy Yank
Ronnie Biggs
08.05.2001 08:57
However, am I right in thinking that he's ran out of money, and is only back in this country to make use of our health service and benefit system? and he's never paid taxes or contributed to the UK economy, AND the whole affair is costing us.
Far Canal
All pro-capitalist rants...
08.05.2001 14:41
uruisc
e-mail:
uruisc@yahoo.co.uk
Focus Group
10.05.2001 15:09
I believe that the lack of focus was the protest's strength and that that banner reading something like "scrap capitalism and replace it with something nicer" was not the harmless, woolly statement that was so widely commented on - it was in fact that the most accurate and sharply observed comment.
The media seek to judge the protest by their own criteria and values - they do not even realise that they failed to do so.
Lady Olga Maitland compared the protest to the Jarrow March and observed the dignity of that protest compared to Mayday. I would reply that once the heirarchy of needs has gone beyond food and shelter - as it has for most in UK - then the multiplicity of issues addressed by Mayday are not the woolly minded extremism she portrayed - they are a more highly evolved response to our current situation.
Santa Claus
To "???"
10.05.2001 16:17
YOU may not give a shit about human rights and duying children, and may be happy to be selfish and lack conscience about everything you do.
But what are you doing in this website? Are you trying to preach to us that fighting for the welfare of everyone in the world is wrong?
You are just trying to justify what you do to yourself, while offending others. I am sure that you know well enough that protesters were not just lazy or on the dole, but you are not willing to admit it because that way you would admit that although we are all equally hard-working, it is you who is inactive because you do nothing to improve society.
Your ideas about people in the uk exploiting the welfare state are completely irrelevant. But you are too leazy to read a quality newspaper and realize that.
Demi
Demi
e-mail:
kode22@suspicion.co.uk
Mayday Reports Needed!
11.05.2001 13:33
If you have written a report, or have any useful Mayday information we can post on our site, please email:
Thanks
Mayday2001.co.uk
Mayday2001.co.uk
e-mail:
reports@mayday2001.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.mayday2001.co.uk
Unclaim The Streets
23.06.2001 04:59
Unclaim The Streets are a counter group formed in response to recent MayDay demonstrations by so-called "Anarchists"
such as Reclaim The Streets. We sympathise strongly with the views of those such as Richard Littlejohn, James Whale,
The Daily Mail, the Fuel Protestors, the Freemasons and those wonderful public servants, the police. Our manifesto is as
follows:
"The Streets must be de-pedestrianised by the swiftest, most ruthlessly efficient method. The Streets are the lifeblood of
our corporations, we cannot allow them simply to fall into the hands of the nearest passer-by without the faintest inkling
of how to gain profit from their use.
We propose a toll system, to be administered by the private sector for the private sector. This could be administered by
the police or appropriate private law enforcement agents.
We must make the streets safe once more from hippies, the sick, the elderly and the poor, to allow the respectable
businessman to drive over such wretched abominations with the full respect and justification of the law."
Previous successful direct actions on our part include:
The September Fuel Protests.
Successful de-occupation of tree protest sites at Newbury and Twyford Down.
Our leader is known as Crow. Our heroes include:
Winston Churchill
Senator McCarthy
Richard Nixon
If you have had enough of smelly hippies, road protestors and masked anarchists, sign the guest book now.
Our future campaign is, "Privatise the Libraries"
chech out our website and write a comment on the guestbook at expage.com/page/unclaimsthestreets
I Love Ferraris