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captain Ken Masters found dead in Iraq

cw via the MOD | 16.10.2005 17:40

this guy was in charge of all investigations into
suspicious activities by our own troops

including the 2 SAS 'arab dress wearing' troops
arrested in Basra

Death of a British Officer in Iraq - Captain Ken Masters

Published Sunday 16th October 2005

It is with deep regret that the Ministry of Defence can confirm that the body of Captain Ken Masters was discovered in his accommodation in Waterloo Lines, Basra, Iraq on Saturday 15 October 2005.

Captain Masters was Officer Commanding 61 Section, Special Investigation Branch, Royal Military Police. He had been responsible for the investigation of all in-theatre serious incidents plus investigations conducted by the General Police Duties element of the Theatre Investigation Group.


Ken Masters was aged 40, married with two children and had served with the Royal Military Police since 1981. He was commissioned from the ranks in 2001 and served most of his career with the Special Investigation Branch.


The Ministry of Defence asks the media to respect the privacy of Captain Master's family at this time.

 http://www.news.mod.uk/news_headline_story2.asp?newsItem_id=3643


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the real speiail ops people: "Special Reconnaissance Regiment"
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On 5 April 2005 the Secretary of State for Defence, Geoff Hoon MP, announced the creation of a new "Special Reconnaissance Regiment", which has been formed to meet a growing worldwide need for special reconnaissance capability. In a Written Ministerial Statement to the House of Commons, Mr Hoon said:


"The Strategic Defence Review (SDR) New Chapter published in July 2002 stated that we planned to enhance and build upon the capabilities of UK Special Forces. As part of this programme, the 'Special Reconnaissance Regiment' (SRR) will stand up on April 6 2005. This regiment has been formed to meet a growing worldwide demand for special reconnaissance capability. Consistent with the SDR New Chapter, this regiment will provide improved support to expeditionary operations overseas and form part of the Defence contribution to the Government's comprehensive strategy to counter international terrorism. The SRR will bring together personnel from existing capabilities and become the means of the further development of the capability. Due to the specialist nature of the unit, it will come under the command of the Director Special Forces and be a part of the UK Special Forces group."
 http://news.mod.uk/news_headline_story.asp?newsItem_id=3210

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Revealed: IRA bombs killed eight British soldiers in Iraq
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Terror devices used by the IRA in a vicious murder campaign in Ulster blew up British servicemen as the world blamed Iran

By Greg Harkin, Francis Elliott and Raymond Whitaker Published: 16 October 2005

Eight British soldiers killed during ambushes in Iraq were the victims of a highly sophisticated bomb first used by the IRA, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. The soldiers, who were targeted by insurgents as they travelled through the country, died after being attacked with bombs triggered by infra-red beams. The bombs were developed by the IRA using technology passed on by the security services in a botched "sting" operation more than a decade ago.

This contradicts the British government's claims that Iran's Revolutionary Guard is helping Shia insurgents to make the devices.

The Independent on Sunday can also reveal that the bombs and the firing devices used to kill the soldiers, as well as two private security guards, were initially created by the UK security services as part of a counter-terrorism strategy at the height of the troubles in the early 1990s.

According to security sources, the technology for the bombs used in the attacks, which were developed using technology from photographic flash units, was employed by the IRA some 15 years ago after Irish terrorists were given advice by British agents.

"We are seeing technology in Iraq today that it took the IRA 20 years to develop," said a military intelligence officer with experience in Northern Ireland.

He revealed that one trigger used in a recent Iraqi bombing was a three-way device, combining a command wire, a radio signal and an infra-red beam - a technique perfected by the IRA.

Britain claims that the bomb-making expertise now being used in southern Iraq was passed on by Iran's Revolutionary Guard through Hizbollah, the revolutionary Islamist group it sponsors in Lebanon.

But a former agent who infiltrated the IRA told The Independent on Sunday that the technology reached the Middle East through the IRA's co-operation with Palestinian groups. In turn, some of these groups used to be sponsored by Saddam Hussein and his Baath party.

The former agent added: "The photographic flashgun unit was replaced with infra-red and then coded infra-red, but basically they were variations of the same device. The technology came from the security forces, but the IRA always shared its equipment and expertise with Farc guerrillas in Colombia, the Basque separatists, ETA and Palestinian groups. There is no doubt in my mind that the technology used to kill our troops in Basra is the same British technology from a decade ago."

Even more alarming is the claim that the devices were supplied by the security services to an agent inside the Provisionals as part of a dangerous game of double bluff.

According to investigators examining past collusion between the security forces and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, members of the shadowy army undercover outfit, the Force Research Unit, and officers from MI5 learned in the early 1990s that a senior IRA member in south Armagh was working to develop bombs triggered by light beams. They decided the risks would be diminished if they knew what technology was being used.

"The thinking of the security forces was that if they were intimate with the technology, then they could develop counter-measures, thereby staying one step ahead of the IRA," a senior source close to the inquiry explained. "It may seem absurd that the security services were supplying technology to the IRA, but the strategy was sound.

"Unfortunately, no one could see back then that this technology would be used to kill British soldiers thousands of miles away in a different war."

The Provisionals' agent was allowed to travel to New York andpurchase the equipment. But the strategy backfired in March 1992 when the technology triggered a bomb that killed a policewoman and mutilated her male colleague near Newry before counter-measures were in place.

* A dossier naming the alleged killers of the six Red Caps murdered by an Iraqi mob more than two years ago is being handed over to Iraqi judges this week. The six members of the Royal Military Police were butchered to death in June 2003 in an Iraqi police station after being attacked by about 300 tribesmen.

* Two mothers of British soldiers killed in Iraq are to stage a 24-hour "peace camp" opposite Downing Street on Tuesday.

 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/ulster/article320004.ece
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so were the two special ops guys arrested in Basra
actually remnants of those units who infiltrated the IRA
and helped develop the very technology that the
UK NU labour & US Neocons are accusing Iran of
using against them

agent provocateurs anyone?





cw via the MOD

Comments

Hide the following 31 comments

Dont matter whose helping the ressistance

16.10.2005 18:44

As long as they keep those bodies coming back to Britain/US

Imperialists out


Imperialists out, you're a dick

16.10.2005 21:14

So imagine you're my mate Andy, from a tough council estate - your dad was an ex-soldier, to impress him and to stay out of prison you join the Navy age 17. You have a couple of fun years with the cameraderie of being young, daft and drunk/drugged most of the time. Then circa 1991 your world changes. And all these years later you are still ill, having nightmares, PTSD...all for being born working class and not doing well in school.

I have maximum respect for those soldiers who defied orders to fight in the current pointless war. I have no respect for killers of young boys. And maybe 'imperialists out' you should actually re-read the interesting post above more carefully to discover what sort of 'resistance' you're so bravely supporting from behind your computer screen.

Hypnotised


'words' and 'phrases' reveal the true purpose of a post

16.10.2005 22:48

Hypnotised, who exactly is your crude psy-ops post supposed to impress.

Your message, which states DO NOT SUPPORT THE RESISTANCE BRAVELY FIGHTING AGAINST BRITISH AND US TERRORIST INVADERS, BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE INVADERS *PRETEND* TO BE THE RESISTANCE, IN ORDER TO SOW CHAOS- is pure moronic dribble.

You state that you have 'maximum respect' for those that take the king's shilling, and offer their services in rape, torture, and murder in the name of our state. This, of course, is the most important propaganda drive of Blair's New Reich- and parallels Hitler's strategy exactly. Namely, you may hate the Nazi's, but LOVE your boys in uniform as they fight for the Nazi cause.

Indeed,your whole post could be seen as a perfect projection of one of Hitler's imagined propaganda techniques from Mein Kampf. Are Blair's internet boys and girls THIS blatant now?

REMEMBER THIS. Blair will no more shoot a gun, plant a bomb, or open the poison gas cannister than Hitler in his time as Nazi leader. Blair's capacity to commit violence relies 100% on his proxies. Anybody who offers their skills in violence to Blair UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE is the worst kind of criminal, and a traitor to the whole of the Human Race.

Psychological speaking, normal humans require the active support of others, ESPECIALLY when carrying out evil deeds (=deeds with evil consequences). Supporting 'our' boys is the most idiotic, self-destructive, Blair-empowering act that it is possible to do. Let 'our' boys KNOW that they will be tried and convicted for EACH and EVERY crime against humanity that they commited, or supported IN ANY WAY, and Blair's ability to carry out acts of destruction and violence will disappear immediately.

You will see a lot of posts calling for support of 'our' boys in the next few days and months. You will see a lot of posts using control language like 'young boys' (notice in Blair's Britain, 10-year olds should be tried as adults, and 19-year-old ADULT murderers in uniform should be forgiven because they are 'young boys').

Watch the words, because once you get used to the methods of Blair's goons, you will spot them a mile off, regardless of the APPARENT 'upper' message of their posts!!!

twilight


fair enough

16.10.2005 23:15

Some good points made - I was just pissed off at the moronic comment - I have had enough of war full stop, I am fed up with seeing and hearing about people killed before their time for whatever reason even if they are taking the 'king's shilling' - I have had enough of macho heroic struggles of any sort.
I am not a psy-ops guy, this interestingly is the second time today I've been accused of that on Indymedia, see the anti-BDSM posts below. I am an unemployable person if you must know! And look forward to Bliar's impending heart attack with anticipatory glee.

Hypnotised


King's shilling

17.10.2005 06:46

Whatever your background, you make decisions about the way you earn enough to live on. A tough, poor upbringing does not mean you automatically join a bunch of killers. If you do so, I have no pity if you yourself get killed. In fact, as part of an organised mercenary army with no personal grudge against those you are attacking, I'm GLAD when you die before they do.

Flo


Is Ken real or is this a psy-op?

17.10.2005 09:16

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Masters

Ken Masters was aged 40, married with two children and had served with the Royal Military Police since 1981. He was commissioned from the ranks in 2001 and served most of his career with the Special Investigation Branch.

His death will be investigated by the Royal Military Police.

Jim


You are all traitors, I can't believe your comments!

17.10.2005 09:38

So you cheer and gloat when your own countries troops get killed and sent home in coffins. You cheer and gloat when the so called "resistance" in reality cold blooded murders carry out yet another atrocity often against fellow Iraqis. You shout "victory to the resistance" when all the so called resistance are doing is destroying their own country and hamping the chance of a free democratic future for all Iraqis. How can cold blooded murders who kidnapped and beheaded westerners, who bomb police stations, bomb Iraqi civilians waiting for jobs, who bomb Iraqis life blood such as oil pipelines, who bomb United Nations and Red Cross bases and personnel ever be worthy of anyones support?

Face it the so called resistance are nothing but evil cold blooded killers without even an ounce of support amongst the Iraqi people themselves! Our troops are also their to help the Iraqis! Get that right aswell instead of cheering the death of every brave soldier who has put his life on the line to help build peace and democracy in Iraq.

Concerned


One of these days...

17.10.2005 10:19

I'll read a comment by twilight where he (must be a he...) offers a positive constructive suggestion for action instead of just telling us we're all fools and only he knows what's really going on.
When's it going to be, twilight?

daylight


Welcome to the nuthouse, Hypnotised

17.10.2005 11:15

Hypnotised, you don't have to apologise for any of your well-written comments, Moonshine seems a uptight or tense earlier and Twilight is at best a little dim.

"Psychological speaking, normal humans require the active support of others, ESPECIALLY when carrying out evil deeds (=deeds with evil consequences). Supporting 'our' boys is the most idiotic, self-destructive, Blair-empowering act that it is possible to do."

Glorifying in the death of British squaddies, is the most idiotic, self-destructive, Blair-empowering act. If you want to celebrate Ken Masters death then why not turn up at his funeral and have a good laugh at his kids ?

Equating supporting working class soldiers damaged by the war to supporting the war-criminal politicians who sent them there seems more of a psy-ops post than I've seen for a while. Was it designed to drive military families away from the anti-war movement ? Who would that benefit except Blair and the war-profiteers ?

"Are Blair's internet boys and girls THIS blatant now? "
Seemingly so. And you don't need to SHOUT every 10th word - "psychological speaking, normal humans" (sic) maintain a level tone of voice.

Danny


Dear 'Concerned'..

17.10.2005 13:29

Why do you bother contributing to this site? Indymedia challenges accepted mainstream media items. If you want to keep swallowing that comforting pill that Bitish and American troops invaded Iraq to bring peace and democracy, then try the Express, Mail and Sun newspapers. That should lull you nicely. Now fuck off back to fantasy land and let those of us still awake, try to work out what's really going on with this news story.

Flo


cause for concern

17.10.2005 20:59

While I still find absolutely nothing to celebrate in the killings of British soldiers, I too have found the comments of 'Concerned' to be unusually gormless - maybe s/he is basically having a laugh with these wind-up kneejerk platitudes?

Hypnotised


Flo- dulcet decorum est pro patria mori

18.10.2005 06:33

I have personally witnessed army recruitment officers regularly target the dole offices in some of the worst areas of Glasgow.

Do you really think that the average teenage kid who sees that as their only chance of escaping the same living death sentence of everyone else around warrants the death penalty?

Most people don't join the services to kill. It is undoubtedly what is expected of the job. And I doubt many people would join if they really expected to be killed. Stupid recruitment propaganda doesn't help. It targets the poor and errs away from the nasty realities.

The services are in reality structured in such a way that most personell will rarely ever be in the situation where they can feel like they are pulling the trigger themselves: signals; logistics; catering; medical; procurements; bandsman etc etc etc

I think you grossly misrepresent the situation when you assert that people walk into service with some bloodthirsty notion of kill or be killed. Hell, like the police, some of them actually enlist with a sense of national pride and the feeling that for once in their lives they can be someone, a force for good- however misguided you may judge that to be.

Often, you are really dealing with kids who are about as politically savvy as the News of the World, (or institutionalised squaddies who have known little else their entire adult life.) Who live in violent shitholes like Maryhill, Glasgow where you have the choice between working in a call centre, MacDonalds, prison (petty crime, gang violence & drugs) or the services (because all other options seem beyond you and traditional industry was robbed by globalisation)

It's isn't the squaddies or even the rank for that matter (although the further up the chain of command you travel, the more of an argument there is for rejecting illegal orders) that wages war. It is politicians. And you are very right that governments very often abuse their armies trust not to be put in harms way on the basis of lies to line the pockets of the rich.

You live in a very small and bitter world if you think that the death of an NCO (i.e. often "prole" made good) is something to celebrate.

This war is illegal. People should call for the troops to be withdrawn and ensure that their employers (HM Govt PLC) stick to the terms of their employment: defence.

Your dead child


Dear 'Your dead child'

18.10.2005 16:45

It's not the poor soldiers fault, you are so right! It's not his fault he presses a button and many people lose their lives. He isn't to blame for mindlessly following orders - it's his job, after all. He didn't join up to kill people (though he can put that out of his mind when he needs to and keep pressing that button, pulling that trigger if the price is right..).
So, it must be the fault of his Commander. But he's not to blame either, cos he's told to do it by his government. It's not his fault at all.
The government do what the President/Prime Minister want them to do - it's not their fault either, is it? And how can the President be blamed? Either God or Big Business told them to do it.
Ok, time to cut the crap. We only ever have control over what we, as tiny individuals, do. To choose violence is to accept to die violently and be blamed for our violent actions. No excuses.

Flo


flo

18.10.2005 18:30

Well, I hope you never have to kill or have a relative killed violently to learn not to be so flippant and absolutist. Perhaps, one day you'll grow up without needing the trauma to teach you some humility.

dead


Once everything was black and white, now only shades of grey

18.10.2005 19:46

Oh Flo,

I recall those heady days of first and second year at uni, when everything was so clear cut! Halcyon times.....

But Your Dead Child's previous post was a well put together point, and you've just glossed all over it with a child's view. What next - "poor people are poor because they're too lazy to get jobs"?

Boab


Rich or Poor

18.10.2005 21:30

Here is a realistic scenario. There are right now 2 sides. The imperialists along witht heir puppets (soldiers) whose aim is to rape a country of its wealth, and the ressistance, the majority of whos aim (no im not naive of course there are extremist brainwashed religious freaks in the ressistance) but the majority of whom want their country back and the foreign troops, contractors etc (the imperialists) out. I dont doubt that there could be people in the british army just like there probably were in the german army during WW2 and the US army in vietnam who if they wer at home and not fighting i would have concidered them to be decent people. But that doesnt mean say that if I was living during WW2 or Vietnam I wouldnt support the "allies" or the VIetnamese. Of course I would. Injustice is injustice and unfortunately the only way to beat it during war is to have more of the warlords killed and less of the opressed. THis is my analogy and something tells me if situations were reverse and britain was occupied by Iraq I wouldnt be getting any stick for saying hopefully the Iraqi opressors will return to Iraq in a body bag (which i would say). Its just your typical British arrogance of "were the most special people in the world thus we dont deserve to pay for our crimes" which gets in the way of aknowledgeing right from wrong.

The guy that wrote the 1st post


Boab

19.10.2005 06:21

On the contrary, Boab, I used to think in the same way as you.
There was always a reason or excuse for behaviour. Of course there still is and we are still the products of our upbringing, more or less. But in this case we are talking about - there IS only black and white, because there is only life and death. Try reasoning to a women trying to shelter her children as soldiers rain bombs or bullets on her home that these guy have had it tough back home and are trying to gain their daddy's love or find a way out the ghetto or earn money. It's a stark, harsh judgement to make, but when we stop saying (in black and white) that killing is disgusting and evil, we lose all our humanity.

Flo


...

19.10.2005 08:13

Original poster & Flo:

 http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article320343.ece

It's your right express whatever you wish. Personal experience dictates that the truth of the people you find in the forces and why is never as stark as you infer.

You seek to dehumaise the Forces every bit as much as Blair/Bush dehumanised the people of Iraq. Absolutism is borne of the fear of a heterogenous universe.

Flo's point of killing being being inhuman is pretty much silly on any level you wish to view it. Biologically the human race came to be off the back of killing other animals and on an evolutionary level they came to be by killing each other. Killing objectively is as mundane as eating, fucking, shitting, sleeping. Killing and violence is as much a human trait as generosity and compassion. The Moors Murderers weren't "evil inhuman monsters" that are seperate to the rest of the species. Yeah, I find killing repugnant and think the sanctity of human life needs vigorous defence.

The quandry at the end of the day is: if killing is never going to away you have to organise defence against it (legal, martial etc)

A little anecdote which isn't made up: a friend of mind was attacked by a violent rapist. She thankfully put up a good fight and nearly blinded the guy. She was very thankfull the guy got locked up, but she was still very mentally scarred (scared). She decided that she would study martial arts. She is now able to kill easily most people who might attack her.

She doesn't go around looking for people to attack, and I suspect that if she ever was attacked again, she would not kill unless she had to.

The lesson being: there ARE nasty people out there. There is a case for killing as a means of self defence.

Iraq should not have been attacked. Iraqis have a right to resist. But by the same token it is total hypocrisy to relish the dead bodies of every human being on any side.

The nasty evil blood thirsty squaddie on a rape-murder rampage exists mostly in your head, as does the stereotype of the bloodthirsty western-hating Muslim. There are instances of both, and given human nature (see above) always will be.

I suggest you go ask someone who has served what the Forces are like. You are usually only one person away from them. I doubt you'll find many that joined up with any clearly difined politican motivations. The average mid-teenager isn't a sophistacted thinker.

dead


P.S.

19.10.2005 08:26

better still contact these people  http://www.mfaw.org.uk/ and chat with them. I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you hear and how much common ground you'll find.

Please note the 'Make a donation' button. They have just been refused Legal Aid in bringing a case against Blair.

Encourage the wholly legal dissent within the Forces!

dead


Oh Flo!

19.10.2005 09:04

Flo,

What you've said - and do correct me if I'm wrong - is that people must be judged solely on the actions they take, and accept the consequences. That an understanding of reasons, pressures, motives, and so on is irrelevent. Is that a fair summary?

Big Bad Boab


'humanity i hate you'

19.10.2005 09:30

>If you do so, I have no pity if you yourself get killed. (Flo)
>It's a stark, harsh judgement to make, but when we stop saying (in black and white) that killing is disgusting and evil, we lose all our humanity. (Flo)

Its a shame you seem happy to have lost all humanity by your own judgment. Unless you really do consider British soldiers as sub-human. The squaddies in the British army aren't mercenaries, although Blair does employ many contract mercenaries in Iraq. The mercenaries are the ones who get £1000 a day and who aren't answerable to anyone. The squaddies who deaths you celebrate won't earn that in a month. Many are brutalised by their experiences in Iraq to such a degree that they are unable to fit back into society when they return, if they return. Most of the squaddies there haven't had your luck in stumbling across independent media and so their biggest crime is believing the lying politicians on the TV news everyday. Those politicians are the ones you should be saving your vitriol for. In fact, the ordinary British tax payer is more culpable in my opinion than the squaddies - if you lot didn't pay their air-fare to Basra then the squaddies wouldn't be there.

Danny


Still Missing the point

19.10.2005 12:23

You have an occupier and the people who are occupied. Who will you support at this time of injustice. It would be criminal to say I support "our boys" "our troops" and the job their doing just because they are British. Actually it would be disgustingly criminal. No1 said soldiers are rapists and bloodthirsty but they are murderers the second they agreed to make the trip to another country which has done nothing to them, bomb the shit out of its people, and kill them. The fact that they arent intelligent enough to think about their actions is no excuse. In that case we should be excusing murderers here who come from deprived backgrounds and didnt get the right education. It doesnt work this way. Whilst the desirable outcome would be for them to just withdraw it isnt going to happen. And with permanent military bases already agreed tp be built, the only way for justice to be done is for the rssistance to defeat them, and that comes only with killing them or injuring them seriously. This is common sense and if we want this injustice upon the Iraqi people to stop then we should be voicing our support for the ressistance. Imperialism sees no country or people. It ses money and as long as we sit here and shut up about it in the name of protecting "our boys" who are the chosen ones then this injustice will carry well on into other countries with nothing stopping it.

Stop sidetracking the conversation


What point ?

19.10.2005 14:42

"Who will you support at this time of injustice."
Ah,so I'm either with you or against you am I ? Now where have I heard that before. I support an end to this bloody war. I don't want British soldiers killing Iraqis nor do I rejoice when they themselves are killed. Until you stop thinking in terms of EVIL and accusing anyone you disagree with of being PSYOPS then you will fail to grasp anything.

Why would you just "voice your support" and not fight the British army yourself ? I'm, sure it can't just be that you are a coward but I can see no other reason. Perhaps you should find a guillotine to cackle under rather than debating on serious issues.
Demonising the troops who you pay and do little or anything to stop being used by our politicians is a tactic that suits Blair just fine. Perhaps you should read a history of the Vietnam invasion, an occupation that was ended as much by dissent in the lower-ranks of the US Army as by the US peace movement - which for the most part refused to demonise their own troops for their political masters failings.

Danny


Funny you should mention Vietnam

19.10.2005 16:18

Coz im actually studying it in-depth at the moment. The only evidence of dissent that arose from within the army was from soldiers coming back injured. The peace movement did not achieve much as it was clear that 10 years of mass demonstrations didnt stop the war effort and again the movement only grew that big towards the end due to many US soldiers returning back in body bags. On the contrary it was the well organised guerilla army of the Viet-kong and their affective methods (the succesful combating of US soldiers) that managed to show the US government that this was a lost cause. Right now things arent going that bad for the Americans or the British and that results in the British and American people having shut up and allowing twhats happening to happen. I'm also not of the opinion that soldiers are as dumb as u make them to be and therefore will not call them pawns. They have seen the suffering in Iraq first hand and have done nothing about it. Whereas I dont rejoice at the news of a soldier dead. I cant say it makes me feel bad. I cant say ive done much only that ive been to every anti war march there has been. We should have stormed parliament on that first one in 2003. Also again I will stress i never daemonised any british troop but the fact still remains they are murderers for being in a foreign land and killing innocent women children and men. Dont expect me to shed any tears for them being struck blows by the people they have caused so much suffering for.

you say tomato


We fade to grey...

19.10.2005 18:12

Stop sidetracking the conversation

" Who will you support at this time of injustice" Everyone's right to life and their right to defend their life!

Are you deaf, bumb and blind? Has anyone here come out with crap like "support our boys!"???

All I am saying, and a few other seem to concord, is that kneejerk stereotypes of murdering raping psychopaths are paper thin.

"said soldiers are rapists and bloodthirsty" Is it me or does that statement ring a note of peurile petulence to everyone? That's about as clever as saying "Iraqis are rapists and bloodthirsty".

Such people exist everywere and in all walks of life. Christ, even the church! I'm sure there are even rapists in the anti-war movement.

"In that case we should be excusing murderers here who come from deprived backgrounds and didnt get the right education. It doesnt work this way."

Except for the fact that legal martial/deadly force is a concept universal to the overwhelming majority of human cultures. Murderers by definition are not acting in a way that could ever be argued to be lawful. What we are dealing with here is the abuse of lawful deadly force (an age old theme I know).

To follow your analogy, it *would* be taken into consideration if I were mislead by someone into believing my killing another was an measured act of self defence. In fact, it would get me acquitted if proven. I *would* be dejure innocent.

It's pretty obvious you aren't the slightest bit interested in the reality of the situation. I'll let you get back to your world of absolute stereotypes.

I remember when I used to think it was clever to pidgeonhole everything into day & night. Then one day I realised I was just scared of the crepuscular... where the other half of the universe lives.




dead


Judgement

19.10.2005 18:40

What you've said - and do correct me if I'm wrong - is that people must be judged solely on the actions they take, and accept the consequences. That an understanding of reasons, pressures, motives, and so on is irrelevent. Is that a fair summary?


When it comes to killing people for a job, yes.
(Reading my post properly, will reveal a willingness to understand behaviours in other contexts, but that doesn't fit your pigeon-holing of me, does it?)

Flo


Flo

19.10.2005 19:41

If you think all that the Forces do is kill people then you need to research your opinions a little bit more!

dead


teaching a pig to sing

19.10.2005 19:43


Lots of military families came to peace rallies before the war, but stopped when the war started. Started coming back and doing more than anyone else once their own sons were killed. You should show some respect instead of calling their dead kids murders, if not out of common decency than out of an understanding that military dissent is to be encouraged and that unless we value our soldiers lives their deaths will not shorten the conflict at all. Few soldiers will have killed any Iraqis let alone women or children so I hope you at least you don't consider them murderers for simply being there and supporting the invasion. Sure, there are some vicious killers knowingly employed by the British forces but by lumping them all in together you are falling prey to your typical over-simplified black and white view of the world that most people see as shades of grey if not actually colourful. By calling British soldiers 'mercenaries' you make it impossible for activists to discern being an under-paid, poorly treated professional standing army and the genuine hordes of mercenaries who operate without sanction or regulation throughout Iraq. Don't try to dumb me down please.

Signing up means signing your normal freedoms away into military law and few troopers could have anticipated the extent of Blairs treachery nor the docile manner that the huge peace-movement allowed themselves to be ignored. Bear in mind a lot of them signed up expecting to be serving under a bright new socialist government with a declared ethical foriegn policy that few if any expected to launch an illegal oil grab.

Most of the soldiers and more of the generals were against this war. The army refused to go into Iraq without an unprecedented legal reassurance of the war's legality. They were lied to by the top lawyers in the land and they were lied to in false intelligence documents and by the vast majority of their government and by every TV news report they saw. The generals repeatedly went on record saying the war was going to be a disaster without a UN approval and a get-out strategy.

>In that case we should be excusing murderers here who come from deprived backgrounds and didnt get the right education.

Folk who have been brainwashed and deceived are mostly treated as innocents in judicial codes. However, you know the facts and you still do little or nothing except offer "verbal support" to oppose the war and so could be seen as more culpable than the mass of British soldiers. Sure, some British soldiers have committed criminal acts in Iraq, and should be punished by international courts or iraqi couurts iinstead oif British courts. The fact that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation now stretches to the Persian Gulf should indicate to all of them that they are either in the wrong or the ice caps have already melted but they aren't the root of the problem.

Under international law, every MP who voted for the war is liable to be tried for all subsequent crimes, and may hang for those crimes. Under the English law of treason, Blair could be tried and hung for declaring war on a false prospectus. After Nuremeberg, those Germans who attempted to assasinate Hitler were pardoned so it is legal to remove a dictatorial warmonger by any means. Those peoples deaths I would not expect you to mourn but you should realise 'whatever makes a soldier sad makes a killer smile'.

Danny


real news from Iraq

19.10.2005 20:18

Just wanted to add a few links which might help us all understand the realities in Iraq:

IRAQI CIVILIANS -
 http://secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com - also check out the links

ALLIED SERVICES -
 http://www.livejournal.com/~insideiraq - sadly not all posts are public

INSURGENTS & AGENT PROVOCATEURS-
 http://www.infovlad.net for definitive archiving of mujahadeen propaganda

See our own daily press & TV for imperialist propaganda, of course...

Hypnotised


Dead sons

19.10.2005 20:33

I've been at many protests where mothers of dead soldiers have spoken and have been moved to tears by their grief. But I don't feel anything at all for the men themselves. They had a choice.
The people I'm grieving for are those who had NO choices - those who could never defend themselves against that mighty army. Always the strong crushing the weak. And always the same voices defending their actions. On this one thread, I've read about self-defence, poverty, upbringing, patriotism. While we keep finding excuses, we condone and support what is happening in Iraq.

Flo


Rewind

19.10.2005 21:54

"It's a stark, harsh judgement to make, but when we stop saying (in black and white) that killing is disgusting and evil, we lose all our humanity."

"But I don't feel anything at all for the men themselves."

Did I hear you right ?


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