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Go Indymedia, go! - Response to the SHIfT article

Some IMCistas | 23.05.2008 12:07 | Analysis | Indymedia | Palestine

The following is a response by some IMC UK activists to a defamatory article by an anonymous author published in the new, Manchester-based magazine SHIFT (issue 3, May-Sep 2008), under the title "Go Hamas Go"? Why Indymedia UK is losing support [1]. Although this may generate for SHIFT publicity they don't deserve, we thought it our duty to clarify the facts and refute these false allegations and accusations.


Editorials

Before turning to the article, it is worth noting that the issue's Editorial makes similar allegations about Indymedia UK. "For many of us," it starts, "a visit to Indymedia UK is a frustrating experience." "Most exasperating," it then goes on, "are the countless posts obsessed with the Israel-Palestine conflict, which are telling of some of the political viewpoints we are happy to associate with." Countless?! Obsessed?! Happy to associate with?!!

During the 17 months since it was created in January 2007, the Palestine topic has had an average of less than one feature per month (0.8). While some months had no features at all about or related to Palestine-Israel (Feb 2007, Apr 2007, Sep 2007 etc.), others had two (May 2007, Jul 2007, Oct 2007 and Apr 2008). Some of these were UK features, which appeared on the UK startpage, whilst some were only regional (e.g. about local protests or actions) which appeared on regional IMCs startpages. The topic also attracted around 45 posts per month on average (ranging between 27 and 61, depending on the political weather in Palestine-Israel). The only exception was March 2008 (after the escalations in Gaza), which saw 84 posts. March 2008 was the only month when about 11% of all posts published on Indymedia UK had the Palestine topic ticked (84 out of 763). For all other months since January 2007, the percentage was somewhere between 5% and 10%.

Although the editorial admits that the "conflict in the Middle East" is "one of the major atrocities of our time, as the lives of ordinary Palestinians are being destroyed by the bulldozers of a well-equipped army," it claims that "the issues that are driving this conflict" are "nationalism, religion [and] imperialism." So the Palestinian liberation struggle is merely motivated by nationalistic and/or religious issues? And the discriminatory and repressive Israeli policies are simply "imperialism"?

"But to have a radical critique of those issues," the piece continues, "we need to see beyond Israel=evil and Palestine=good." While no one in Indymedia is advocating or endorsing such simplistic views, there a is big danger in equating the oppressor and the oppressed. As a colonial, racist state, Israel, as a state/system/project, is inherently evil, in the same way that we say capitalism or imperialism is evil. And the victims' self-defence methods, however 'uncivilised', cannot be just dismissed because they do not fit our Western (liberal) activist models, when resistance for them often means fighting for their very survival. "Mostly, however," the editors then claim, "the opinions presented on Indymedia make the problems of the world seem like one big Jewish conspiracy," ignoring the fact that such views are so obviously racist/reductionist and have been consistently challenged and hidden on Indymedia.

Finally, the editors ask this loaded question, "What makes Indymedia UK so appealing to conspiracy theorists?" and argue that "it's not just the open publishing format" but, rather, "it's the familiarity of the view that the world is run by a few multinationals, Americans and Israelis."

Indeed, conspiracy theories take a lot of activists' energy and could be 'harmful', in the sense that they paint the 'movement' in a bad/mad way (as if its image, without that, is so clean and shiny!). But it is crucial to remember that, in face of the states' and mainstream media's relentless efforts to conceal the truth, people, and especially activists, often find themselves forced to contemplate, speculate and doubt what they are being sold, because they have lost, over the years, all faith in what those in power tell them to believe to justify their crimes. Conspiracy theories are thus an 'act of resistance'. To argue that 'we' do not really need them to act and that they would not add anything 'we' do not already know, is ignoring the sad reality that people usually do not act out of general moral criticisms; they often need something shocking and disturbing to get off their bums.

It is important to stress here that Indymedia does reject all racially based conspiracy theories (e.g. 'Jews control the world', 'Jews or Arabs did 9/11' and the like). To argue whether 9/11 or the Iraq war were planned or utilised by some cynical politicians and intelligence services is a totally different argument. After all, history is full of cases like this and it's not like it hasn't happened before and won't happen again and again as long as a few morally corrupt and money-driven individuals and institutions have so much power over people's lives.

Unprofessional

Turning to the article itself, the first thing one notices is its provocative and misleading title. It employs the largely Western mainstream media-constructed image of Hamas as a terrorist organisation and suggests that Indymedia blindly supports it. The second bit of the title declares, without any evidence throughout the article, that Indymedia is "losing support" and promises its readers of explaining the reason, which does not really happen.

"Go Hamas, Go!!!" was, in fact, the title of a comment on an article published on Indymedia UK [2] about the 'darkness scenes' (candle-lit meetings) staged by the Hamas-led Palestinian government to highlight the suffering of Gazans due to the siege and sanctions imposed by Israel earlier this year. The comment basically says that it is legitimate for Hamas to "utilise [Israel's] war crime as a backdrop for a photoshoot."

The SHIFT article starts with a quote by Naomi Klein that goes, "Every time I log on to activist news sites like Indymedia.org which practise 'open publishing', I am confronted with a string of Jewish conspiracy theories about September 11 and excerpts from the Protocol of the Elders of Zion." While Klein is not actually talking about Indymedia UK but the global Indymedia site, which has far less and less active volunteers and moderators, as well as Open Publishing in general, it is worth noting that the quote is from an article published in The Guardian back in 2002 [3]. It is, indeed, one of Open Publishing's problems that contributors can post all kind of rubbish, but whether the admin collective endorse, or tolerate, that or not is a totally different question.

The first parts of the SHIFT article 'borrow' extensively from an Indymedia UK feature [4] on the 'Atzmon-Greenstein affair', which the article discusses in some detail drawing on that feature. It is, however, surprising and unprofessional of the author that it does not mention the feature. The reason is perhaps best understood when one tracks down the ideological/editorial twists in the article and the differences between it and the feature.

Misleading

Without any warrant or hesitation, the author declares from the beginning that "in the past few months the site Indymedia.org.uk has lost support from many activists for letting anti-Semitic posts go unchallenged." Not only does the author not cite any evidence that Indymedia UK has "lost support", s/he also claims, without giving any examples, that "anti-Semitic posts" went "unchallenged".

The average for hidden posts out of all posts published with the Palestine topic ticked is 12% (95 out of 811 for the period Feb 2007-Apr 2008). This is more or less the same as with other topics, such as Iraq (also 12%), and is not very far from the UK hiding average (19%), taking into account that a lot of spammers (mere links, commercial ads, announcements etc.) usually use the UK publish form and do not always tick topics.

The only instance the article mentions is Gilad Atzmon's controversial article "Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath", which generated a lot of discussion and disagreement exactly because moderators could not agree that it was anti-Semitic.

A few lines later, the author again claims that "the Atzmon affair, as it has become known, led to heated discussions, personal accusations, and a loss of credibility for UK Indymedia amongst some of its moderators, in activist circles and even in the wider leftist movement." Could it just be the case that the author him/herself is generalising, or projecting, his/her own opinion onto the "wider leftist movement"?

The article then continues with some distortion and/or misrepresentation of what happened: "At the height of the affair, three active Indymedia moderators resigned from the collective [they were, in fact, two; the third had nothing to do with this affair] giving many readers [which readers?] the impression that the obsession [what obsession?] with the Palestine-Israel conflict had gained the upper hand [how exactly? Wasn't the issue anti-Semitism?]."

As a retraction, perhaps, the author then admits that "Indymedia.org.uk has been the target for anti-Semitic posts before and many have been hidden straight away with reference to the guidelines." However, s/he follows that with another misrepresentation: "In this latest affair however the guidelines did not seem conclusive enough to judge what is anti-Semitism and what isn't." Again, the author fails to grasp the fact that the racism guideline already covers anti-Semitism but the issue here was that not all moderators agreed that the article was anti-Semitic, and hence racist.

The article then dedicates a 6-paragraph section to discuss "The Atzmon Affair". The 'summary', however, is clearly biased and misrepresenting (it is worth comparing it with the Indymedia feature mentioned above). For example, the author (intentionally?) misinterprets a statement by Atzmon, which s/he wrongly ascribes to an audio interview conducted by a UK Indymedia activist (it is actually from an article by Atzmon entitled "On Anti-Semitism", published in December 2003 [5]). The quote reads: "There is no anti-Semitism any more. In the devastating reality created by the Jewish state, anti-Semitism has been replaced by political reaction." The author claims that, by this statement, Atzmon, "once again, affirmed that the hatred of Jews and Israel is simply caused by themselves," without explaining to us how "political reaction" to Israel is the same as "hatred of Jews".

Lies?

In a section supposedly about the "Resignations and resolution attempts" (following the Atzmon-Greenstein spat), the author claims that "many more articles appeared, some promoted, some not, that attempted to prove that Jews had built 'the last openly racist state on the planet' or that 'the situation of the Palestinians is little different than the situation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII'." A few lines later, s/he adds, "Blog reposts about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict multiplied and have since taken up a large part of the newswire." But since the author does not reference any of these "many more articles" that were allegedly so obviously racist but were not only kept showing but also promoted, it is difficult to respond to such allegations.

In the period between 14 Feb and 31 Mar 2008, there were 220 posts on Israel-Palestine. Of these, 31 were IMEMC reports, 22 on UK actions and events and 12 reports from inside Palestine. That's almost 30% and most of these were promoted/promotable. Some 65 appear to come from a persistent disinformation troll and were mostly hidden; another 30 were posted by a user who posts a lot of Israle-Palestine material to Indymedia sites worldwide, usually reposts of corporate coverage with commentary; and 13 were complaints about moderation, which should take place on the moderation list. Together these three categories constitute almost 50% of the total. The rest (20%) was divided between Latuff cartoons, commentaries and reposts from blogs or other media. So the claim that "blog reposts [...] have since taken up a large part of the newswire" is totally unfounded.

As to the two quotes above (still without any referencing or context), the first is apparently from an article [6] about the Israeli policy in Gaza, which the author says is "as evil as it is self-defeating". The article is reposted from a blog called "The Vineyard of the Saker" [7] by someone describing him/herself as "a 'legal alien' currently living in the Imperial Homeland." The context within which the quote appears is this: "The main, over-arching, issue Israel, as a self-described "Jewish state", is facing today is not terrorism or Iranian nukes but demographics. Israel, as the last openly racist state on the planet, considers it vital to keep a Jewish majority within its borders. This is why a council of rabbis gets to decide who qualifies as "Jew" and who does not, and why the so-called law of return makes any Jew on the planet eligible for relocation to Israel and Israeli citizenship (even if this Jew is non-religious, does not speak Hebrew or Yiddish, and does not care in the least about Israel) while those Arabs who were born in today's Israel and who were expelled from their homes and towns are not allowed to return even though such a right is enshrined in international law." This is hardly racist or anti-Semitic unless one regards any criticism of Israel's racial policies as racism.

The second quote is from a short comment [8] on an article about the UN condemning the Israeli collective punishment of Gaza (the brutal siege and sanctions). The comment says that "the situation of the Palestinians in Gaza (and even in the West Bank) is little different than the situation of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII." Now this might be an exaggeration and it is not really funny seeing people 'competing for victimhood', but 'monopolising victimhood' the way Zionists do, for example, is not funny either (see the following comments on the same thread).

It is worth noting that both articles/comments were published in January 2008, i.e. during the Israeli siege of Gaza and the worldwide protests condemning it. So, to respond to the SHIFT article's complaint that posts about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict "multiplied", this can be explained as the site users' reacting to world political events, which is pretty normal and true of all other topics on Indymedia UK.

That month (January 2008), the Palestine topic saw 51 posts, slightly above the average (45). The number increased steadily during the following months, with the Gaza crisis unfolding and protests taking place throughout the world, culminating in 84 posts for March 2008. The same is probably true for comments but, unfortunately, we do not have any statistics for these at the moment to back that up.

The SHIFT article then goes on to complain that "comments such as 'Long live Palestine' or even 'Go Hamas Go' were no longer hidden," without enlightening us when they used to get hidden and why they should be. As mentioned above, the "Go Hamas Go" comment mainly argued that it is legitimate for Hamas to "utilise [Israel's] war crime as a backdrop for a photoshoot." It does not suggest any support for Hamas or cheering for the killing of Israelis. As to the SHIFT author's rant about Hamas, one can probably only raise eyebrows at how a supposedly radical, alternative writer in a supposedly radical, alternative magazine could reiterate such mainstream propaganda crap, with a typical Western activist's patronising value-judgement that takes 'others' struggles out of their political/historical contexts.

The second 'worrying' quote ("Long live Palestine") [9] seems to come from a 'Western' activist and merely concludes with that slogan (almost like a signature) after congratulating the author of a report (incidentally about an Atzmon event in Brighton) on the "great summing up of the background to this latest debacle in Greenstein's vicious campaign."

The article further claims that "many" of these comments "were posted [by] agitators based in Canada and the US, who have recognised Indymedia UK's willingness to host their posts." Besides asking the author how did s/he got to know this, given the near-total anonymity of posters on Indymedia, one cannot help wondering what s/he understands from Open Publishing?

"'Nazimedia'?"?

In fact, the author does appear to understand that well but seems to have other things in mind. In a section provocatively titled "Nazimedia"?, s/he declares, "It thus became evident that the problem did not just lie with the open publishing format. Some Indymedia activists began to pursue an agenda that belittled anti-Semitism." And what is this agenda that "belittled anti-Semitism"? Well, the publishing of a feature about the siege on Gaza titled "Israel keeps its promise of a 'Holocaust' in Gaza" [10].

But before we go into that, it is worth mentioning that the total number of Palestine-related features during the 17 months since the topic was created is 15 out of 134 UK startpage features or, more accurately, out of 324 UK and regional features. That is just 4.6%. In comparison, the Iraq topic, for example, has received 20 features during the same period.

The feature's title was somehow turned in the article to "Israel keeps its promise of a Holocaust upon the Palestinians". Not only is this a careless mistake, the omission of the quotation marks surrounding the word "Holocaust" -which indicate the feature's authors' reservation and the fact that it was the word used by Israeli deputy Defense Minister threatening Palestinians before the escalation in Gaza in February this year- that omission might well be ill-intended and in line with the image the author has been trying to paint of Indymedia UK throughout the article. The full paragraph where this is explained in the feature reads: "On February 29th, the Israeli deputy Defense Minister provoked outrage after threatening Palestinians with a "holocaust". Matan Vilnai told the Israeli army radio that "the more [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they [the Palestinians] will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves." The same twisted logic is used by the far-right and Holocaust deniers to blame Jewish people for the Nazi Holocaust."

The article (intentionally?) misrepresents both what happened in Gaza and the feature itself. The feature, it claims, "argued that Israel's deadly military raids aimed at some Hamas officials and Gaza gunmen amounted to plans to unleash a 'Holocaust' and a 'full-scale war' on Palestine." It also does not support with any evidence its claim that the feature was published "despite obvious discontent amongst many Indymedia users." The feature was proposed on 4 March 2008 [11] and not a single objection or reservation was posted to the imc-uk-features list, so it was published the following day after the usual 24 hours waiting period. Of course, the feature, like anything else about Palestine, did attract quite a few comments later on (36 in total), 10 of which were hidden as complaints about moderation, which should take place on the moderation list, or simply because they were abusive or discriminatory, which breach the Editorial Guidelines.

The suggestion in the subtitle that Indymedia has become or is becoming "Nazimedia" is cheap and defamatory, to say the least. To put that word in quotation marks and follow it with a question mark does not really spare the author or editors the responsibility, especially that none of the comments, showing or hidden, on that particular feature used the word "Nazimedia", although it has been used by some trolls in the past [12]. And despite 'assuring' readers that "Indymedia Uk is not run by a collective of anti-Semites", the article further claims that the collective has tried to "redefine the Holocaust" and that comments supporting that "remained on the newswire", while "all complaints were hidden within minutes."

It is also worth noting that most of these allegations/accusations were posted by well known trolls/disinfo agents who get hidden straight away all the time. So the whole theory in the article that Indymedia UK has "lost support" seems to be based on hidden disinfo posts and comments (see the Atzmon-Greenstein feature mentioned above for more details). As an edited print magazine, the editors of SHIFT and the author of the article haven't probably had much experience with full-time trolls and organised disinformation campaigns, which they simply dismiss as another conspiracy theory by some Indymedia admins with a secret agenda!

Yes, really, what is anti-Semitism?

Towards the end of the article, the author contends that there is "nothing new" about the allegations against Indymedia admins of "being blind to anti-Semitrism." S/he further concludes that "the Indymedia UK collective is unlikely to agree whether Atzmon or Latuff are anti-semitic" and that "in many ways it would be a futile endeavour." More important, s/he continues, "is the question why controversial and provocative posts that compare Israeli policies to those of Nazi Germany find their way onto Indymedia newswires in the first place" and "what attracts anti-semites to the website?"

After repeating the problem with Open Publishing and that the Editorial Guidelines might not be "up to date with current developments in radical politics," s/he has this to say: "Sadly, Indymedia offers a platform to invent caricutures of the Israeli state and of its policies. Instead of recognising the political context, it helps to perpetuate an image of Israel, and of Jews, as sinister conspirators with a secret plan to turn the worlds into one massive settlement." Really?! Where did Indymedia UK do that other than some anti-Semitic posts that get "immediately hidden or deleted", in the author's own words.

Perhaps the author of the article, along with the SHIFT editors, need to sit down (after publicising their magazine on Indymedia! [13]) and reread the 'Holocaust' and Atzmon features carefully without prejugements and hasty accusations. Or better even, post their complaints to the appropriate lists and join the collective discussions about what is anti-Semitism and what is Zionism and how to deal with them.

Notes:

[1] http://www.shiftmag.co.uk. The full text of the article is available here http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/398746.html?c=on#c196133

[2] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/390275.html?c=on#c188459

[3] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/25/comment.guardiancolumnists

[4] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/392188.html

[5] http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html

[6] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/389886.html

[7] http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com

[8] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/389757.html?c=on#c187974

[9] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/388930.html?c=on#c187195

[10] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/393065.html

[11] http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2008-March/0304-cv.html

[12] http://indymediawatch.blogspot.com/2006/06/why-is-it-called-nazimedia_12.html

[13] http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/398746.html

[14] All the site statistics and figures above were gathered by IMC UK techies on 20 May, 2008, for the purpose of this article.

Some IMCistas

Comments

Hide the following 34 comments

Why oh why?

23.05.2008 12:36

Shift magazine is clearly nothing more than a self-funded vanity project for a pair of bored pseudo intellectuals.

Why even bother responding to these attention seeking nobodys? Its not like anyone else gives them the time of day, or buys their tedious publication.

Here we go again.


Proof that UK IMC has conspiraloons in the collective.

23.05.2008 13:33

Look at the news wire it is rendered preposterous by the constant inundation by non news repostings of conspiracy bollocks. The moderation criteria are then selectively applied in order to hide comments objecting to these or ridiculing the ridiculous (how else can you respond to the ridiculous without lowering your self and letting the level of debate be set by these loons?).

Now it is all to obvious why this happens when the post above says: "Indymedia does reject all racially based conspiracy theories (e.g. 'Jews control the world', 'Jews or Arabs did 9/11' and the like). To argue whether 9/11 or the Iraq war were planned or utilised by some cynical politicians and intelligence services is a totally different argument. After all, history is full of cases like this and it's not like it hasn't happened before and won't happen again and again as long as a few morally corrupt and money-driven individuals and institutions have so much power over people's lives."

Planned is the important word here - They are actually arguing that a conspiracy of tens of thousands to drive planes into the Twin towers and then blow them up and then kidnap the passengers off another plan, hide them for seven years and then fire missiles into the pentagon. That that sort of conspiracy has happened before and will happen again? You are fucking bonkers

Absolute stone cold proof that conspiraloons have infilitrated the UK IMC collective.

(And yes no irony here, conspiraloons do operate conspiratorially because they think that is how the world works)

The question is why does Indymedia (posters and moderators) attract people of a conspiracy world view which doesn't reflect the wider movement in the UK?

Well Indymedia attracts people who believe that the problems of the world are caused by people having the wool pulled over their eyes and this can lead to thinking it is done by a small group of conspirators who run the world. In that case all that needs to happen is to expose the conspirators and all will be right.

This wasn't what Indymedia was oirginally designed for. It's original role was to amplify summit protests and large real world events. And it can still be useful during such periods. It's when they aren't happening that Indymedia has never been able to resolve a role and so it falls prey to the dynamics that attract a certain world view and not others.

The conspiracy world view tends towards anti-semitism, historically the fantasy of the omnipotent jew was the first scapegoat. click a few links from a conspiracy post and you'll soon see the jews blamed again.

The answer though is not to reform Indymedia, no matter how annoying the manipulations of the conspiracists are - it is virtually dead anyway. The solution lies in a vibrant anti-capitalist movement as the stage for talking about and acting on the world and that off line will always be primary.


Not from Shift


Your browser must be superior to mine

23.05.2008 13:52

"Look at the news wire it is rendered preposterous by the constant inundation by non news repostings of conspiracy bollocks."

I had a scan of all the stuff on the front page and I found 2 articles relating to 9/11.

Either your browser shows you stuff that isn't available on mine, or you are exaggerating ,creating a strawman , or you have a different criteria to mine.

If you would be so kind as to list all the articles between "Anti Deportation Campaign: Keep Babi Safe in Cardiff" to "Go Indymedia, go! - Response to the SHIfT article" that prove your claim, that would be helpful, and would certainly help me to reappraise my view.

Cheers

ftp


Labelling system

23.05.2008 14:19


I enjoy reading Indymedia UK and look forward to reading it for a long time to come. Yes, you have to dig through a lot of rubbish postings on the wire, but amidst them, sometimes, there can be gold.

However, it might help if a label system was introduced for the open newswire, where each story is assigned a letter. How about this...?


A – quasi-academic rant: not actually news, but a sixth-form essay, normally preaching-to-the-converted stuff about the evils of US imperialism. Extra points for the use of the word hegemony, direct Chomsky lifts, and pointless “quotation marks” around “every” other “word”.

R – repost: of mainstream media, usually preceded with a comment about how horrendous the mainstream media is for not covering the issue. Or a one sentence rant followed by a link to the BBC.

P – protest coverage: necessary sometimes when the event has been ignored, but often just nice snaps from someone’s day out along with some self-congratulatory stuff about the turn-out and impact (“Our flapjacks-for-Hamas stall changed the minds of all the shoppers in Colchester…”)

C – conspiraloon. The Bush government obviously used 9/11 as an excuse to do things it wanted to do anyway, and its attempts to retro-fit the evidence were cack-handed. But if it was really able to involve thousands of people in the conspiracy, fit explosives to detonate downwards from the floor where a holographic plane would hit, etcetera, surely someone’s could have forged one half-decent piece of A4 suggesting a convincing link to Iraq? Put the tinfoil hats away.

FU – foreign unintelligible; it’s lovely you’re having a demo against this particular acronym. Could you please explain for UK readers what the hell you’re protesting against.

LU – local unintelligible; if you’re not going to explain why you’re court-case / theory is about, you’re only posting for two or three of your mates. Explain why this is significant or set up a group for your friends on Facebook.

E – event plugs: stick them in the calendar

PR – press releases for your campaign / charity / action group. Nothing wrong with them – the site’s full of em – but don’t claim you have any objectivity.

N – actual original news, or an original first person perspective on an event. Weirdly rare.

Norville B


N – actual original news, or an original first person perspective on an event.

23.05.2008 14:27

" Weirdly rare."

And you posted your last one when NorvilleB?

The users of the site determine what is posted to the wire - if someone doesn't see an issue covered or first person reports happening, then that is something that someone could easily rectify.

All that tends to happen is complaints and more complaints. They're easy to make, but don't seem to be moving us on.

ftp


You're a bit too familiar with straw men...

23.05.2008 14:43

Talk about a straw man argument.

How many posts will satisfy you that the news wire is rendered preposterous?

There are always 9/11 conspiradribble posts on the news wire, constantly, two today perhaps two more tomorrow, perhaps 5 the day after, who they fuck knows. The only thing we can sure of is that they are constantly there. This means that every time someone looks on the news wire all other post are made equivalent to the conspirabollocks. Every other post is dragged down to their preposterous level.

Any attempts to ridicule them and call them what they are - loony tunes paranoid nonsense gets censored.

Indymedia UK is dead.

OK no big deal, it does happen -
Open bulletin boards - dead - killed by spam.
Open publishing - dead - killed by spam and infilitration.

It has to be dealt with politically, build a strong, intelligent anti-capitalist culture - the route to this, off line action.

Not from Shift


notes

23.05.2008 14:47

From the article:

"Indeed, conspiracy theories take a lot of activists' energy and could be 'harmful', in the sense that they paint the 'movement' in a bad/mad way (as if its image, without that, is so clean and shiny!). But it is crucial to remember that, in face of the states' and mainstream media's relentless efforts to conceal the truth, people, and especially activists, often find themselves forced to contemplate, speculate and doubt what they are being sold, because they have lost, over the years, all faith in what those in power tell them to believe to justify their crimes. Conspiracy theories are thus an 'act of resistance'."

Only in the sense that the NF marching against blacks is an "act of resistance." In other words, not at all - just a desparate reaction to a confusing world by people wanting easy answers. It's the blacks! It's the Jews! It's the Illuminati!

While association with conspiracy theorists is obviously not the main problem facing activists in the UK, the association really doesn't do us any favours. More significantly, many conspiracy theorists lay their blame at an ill-defined "elite," whose nefarious plans can thus be translated into the theorist's own prejudices. Search through infowars.net or davidicke.com, or various 9/11 "truth" forums for words like "Jew" or "homosexual" and you'll get an idea of the problem.

While these tendencies may not be the majority, there is a significant overlap.

That said, the SHIfT article was atrociously written, filled with errors and gaps, and did not reflect anything resembling my (or those I know) experiences with Indymedia over the years, writing as both an activist and a regular reader.

rasputin


Inundated = less than 2%?

23.05.2008 14:53

Thanks for that.

Try not clicking on them, or try the promoted wire - surely those are better alternatives to the McCarthyite view that all thinking you do not agree with must be excised from the site?

Your claim seems almost as outlandish as those of our friend "bored with the excuses IMCers use for antisemitism".

ftp


Problem?

23.05.2008 15:14

I for one find Indymedia to be a very valuable resource. If anything some of the very well informed comments on articles I have read have helped me to moderate some of my quite strong opinions on certain subjects. I have been accused of anti semitism on this site several times when I have directed the merest crticisms at the actions of Israel as a state.

I deplore any form of racism and believe that the vast majority of people that use this site echo those ideals. I have read the odd inflammetary article but take it with a pinch of salt as I'm sure do most rationally minded individuals. I cannot think of a single article in which I thought the author was not entitled to his opinion.

During the course of my life I have yet to meet an individual you could claim to be anti-semetic to do so would a novelty if not a particularly pleasant one.et every day I am surrounded by idiots,racist bigots who rant about Muslims and Eastern Europeans and other ethnic minorities. I personally find the users of this site far more affable and tolerent then 90% of our society.

I cannot understand why someone posting some garbage about a 9/11 conspiracy carried out with the knowledge of 1000's of individuals is still being talked about. Why is the odd conspiracy article an issue? What harm does it really do?

General Degenerate


Pedantry to avoid politics.

23.05.2008 15:39

So you think my argument stands or falls on the word inundated does it? You may find the word hyperbolic, I don't think the word inundated comes with a precentage qualification, if you have ever tried debating conspiracy theorists you will soon come to know the feeling of inundation.

All that however is completely irrelevant to the argument that they make the rest of the news wire preposterous.

Your answer to that is to just look away - of course I don't have to click on reposts from the BNP website - so should they be allowed on the news wire?

Anyway enough of this you aren't going to address my political arguments and those active in Indymedia aren't going to seriously try and address the political problems this article raises or the ones raised in responding posts. It's too difficult.

To be fair the internet is a terrible place for discussion. Look at the ease with which you have avoided it in your posts.

As I've said in all my posts, the answer doesn't lie just in Indymedia point around which the collective has formed is a piece of technology that is out of date but a group finds it hard to move on from the point it collects around.

The new initiatives will come from outside it.

Not from Shift


Shift's critique of Indymedia

23.05.2008 15:44

Hi, a friend has told us about a public IMC list, where indymedia moderators had started a bit of a slaggin-off match against Shift Magazine, and an article we published in the last issue of our zine, calling it shit, bullshit, digging in the sewers, disappointing, sensationalist, worse than the Daily Mail, rubbish, gutter and so on…

We then sent an email to the list, saying that we feel there’s not enough political discussion in ‘the movement’ and we wanted to stimulate debate about some controversial topics, like anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories. We also explained that this was not to harm indymedia, but a statement of opinion.

Well, we did not get an email back, but instead some moderators replied here. So here are our initial thoughts:


What we don’t like about your reply:
- that you cite statistic at us instead of answering our points, we don’t care whether it’s 5% or 11% of pro-Palestine posts on your site; it’s the quality of those posts that we question

What we do like about your reply:
- where you do make political arguments.
They show that Indymedia (some IMCistas) and Shift have a different view of capitalism, and that’s where a discussion is useful:

You say Israel is “inherently evil”.
We have an anti-nationalist, anti-state focus. We think all states are historical entities tied in with the development of capitalism, and should be criticised as such (saying Israel is evil, Palestine is not, makes no sense to us)

You advocate conspiracy theories as an 'act of resistance'.
Again here we differ – we think conspiracy theories neglect that capitalist exploitation happens on an everyday, mundane level. At best, they divert attention from resistance to everyday injustice. At worst, they serve to pitch religious or ethnic groups against each other.

Then you say that it’s not impossible that secret services planned 9/11.
Again, we differ: we think radicals should have a critique of terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism, martyrdom, etc. There’s nothing wrong with that.


We don’t want to defend the author of the Go Hamas Go article in our mag, He can do that himself. Suffice to say that your response also seems to be a selective reading of his arguments. Again you respond with statistics but ignore the questions raised by reposts from dubious blogs on your site. You defend Atzmon and Vineyard of the Saker and say that comparing Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto of WWII is “an exaggeration” and “not funny” – we think it’s the sort of revisionism you’d expect to find on white supremacist and nationalist websites. You also defend the “go hamas go” comment, by putting it helpfully into context. Shame that you omit that the same person also argues that little that the Wikipedia entry tells him about the organisation (Islamist, suicide bombings, creation of Islamic state, hierarchical etc) can make him “less inclined to support Hamas”. As such, we as editors agree with the general argument in the article. And we believe that you get your priorities wrong if you defend such views.

We think there is no need to get so defensive when people register their frustration with indymedia moderation. Take it as a viewpoint that you can choose to ignore; but it still exists. We hope you can see our editorial and the article as a way of stimulating necessary debate, and that you can come round to welcoming it.

Best wishes,
Shift

Shift Magazine
mail e-mail: shiftmagazine@hotmail.co.uk
- Homepage: http://www.shiftmag.co.uk


not represented

23.05.2008 16:08

just to point out that the 'some imcists' do not and can not be taken as being a representative statemen t from indymedia.

other 'IMCists'


Well there's a surprise.

23.05.2008 16:24

So it seems that this rather tedious post has triggered a vociferous debate between individuals who don't seem to get out very much. I would never have guessed that this would happen.

Here we go again.


To Shift:

23.05.2008 16:53

"Hi, a friend has told us about a public IMC list, where indymedia moderators had started a bit of a slaggin-off match against Shift Magazine, and an article we published in the last issue of our zine, calling it shit, bullshit, digging in the sewers, disappointing, sensationalist, worse than the Daily Mail, rubbish, gutter and so on…"

Accuse people of supporting anti-Semitism and they can get a little peeved. Funny, that.

"We then sent an email to the list, saying that we feel there’s not enough political discussion in ‘the movement’ and we wanted to stimulate debate about some controversial topics, like anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories. We also explained that this was not to harm indymedia, but a statement of opinion."

If the article was not meant to harm Indymedia, calling it "Nazimedia" may not have been the most tactful approach. Similarly, discussing anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories is one thing (and something I strongly feel should be discussed for a variety of reasons); doing so purely in the context of Indymedia is another, and I don't blame the IMCistas for being more than a little concerned.

(I had similar reactions to the 9/11 Truth table at the anarchist bookfair FWIW)

"- that you cite statistic at us instead of answering our points, we don’t care whether it’s 5% or 11% of pro-Palestine posts on your site; it’s the quality of those posts that we question"

The statistics are relevant in that they put the Palestine posts in context for the rest of the site - giving a comparison of hidden posts on Palestine compared to hidden posts on other subjects sheds light on whether Indymedia is more attractive to anti-Semites than it is to trolls on other subjects.

"You say Israel is “inherently evil”.
We have an anti-nationalist, anti-state focus. We think all states are historical entities tied in with the development of capitalism, and should be criticised as such (saying Israel is evil, Palestine is not, makes no sense to us)"

From the IMCistas' article:

"But to have a radical critique of those issues," the piece continues, "we need to see beyond Israel=evil and Palestine=good." While no one in Indymedia is advocating or endorsing such simplistic views, there a is big danger in equating the oppressor and the oppressed. As a colonial, racist state, Israel, as a state/system/project, is inherently evil, in the same way that we say capitalism or imperialism is evil. And the victims' self-defence methods, however 'uncivilised', cannot be just dismissed because they do not fit our Western (liberal) activist models, when resistance for them often means fighting for their very survival."

The "Israel=evil, Palestine=good" view is, IMO, a strawman, unless you can find some evidence to the contrary. Acknowledging the complexity of the situation and refusing to treat Israel and Palestine as "equal" is not the same.

FWIW I agree with your view on conspiracy theories - they do us absolutely nothing positive.

"You defend Atzmon and Vineyard of the Saker and say that comparing Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto of WWII is “an exaggeration” and “not funny” – we think it’s the sort of revisionism you’d expect to find on white supremacist and nationalist websites."

I notice you didn't bother to answer one issue regarding the second world war comparison. The Gaza "Holocaust" article was specifically in reference to a quote from an Israeli official, in which said official promised a Shoah (literally disaster but used almost exclusively in relation to the Holocaust) for the Palestinians, and the IMC article was referring to this quote. The article in your magazine ignored this, and used it to claim anti-Semitism on the part of the IMC.

"We think there is no need to get so defensive when people register their frustration with indymedia moderation."

Frustration with moderation and accusing said moderators of passively supporting anti-Semitism are not, at all, comparable.

rasputin


a poorly disguised zionist smear

23.05.2008 17:13

....is what i think has happened here. IMC is not editorially monolithic; the watchword is inclusivity. Only a small proportion of articles are about Israel (which IS a major issue, perhaps THE major issue in the world today), even fewer 9/11 conspiraloonery, with far more on animal rights.
I'd like to see specific instances of anti-semitism itemised, cos |I've never noticed any; it is NOT anti-semitic to point out that the Palestinians have a huge and legit grievance, or that Israel exists as a state nicked of someone else. It's simply the truth.
the price of inclusivity is the same price of having an open mind; you never kniow what gets in there.But to sacrifice that inclusivity for the sake of appeasing critics would be disastrous.
and the people behind Shift, and the people calling those running IMC anti-semites here, know all that, perfectly well - they're not daft.
Nice try people, but it's been rumbled

DaanSaaf


Dear Shift

23.05.2008 19:10

I'm impressed that imc uk have all these stats, myself. I'm also impressed by your lack of desire to tackle them.

Shame, because otherwise you don't really seem (editorially) to know why you published the piece in question. The writer is obviously very upset, or pretending to be, but in either case, the resulting attack is a rather tabloid excuse for a piece, surely.

If you had wanted a fair debate, you could have started by asking why, in terms of imc uk's coverage of foreign affairs, more focus does seem to be on Palestine-Israel, than, say, Burma, or even Tibet.

I also asked why this was the case, when I first got involved with imc. The answer was that this was a humanitarian crisis for which the UK was partly responsible, and in which the UK government continues to actively collude. The same could be said of a lot of places, of course. More obvious is the fact that both the UK and Israeli governments are directly subject to the US government, while Burma, for example, is not.

Tim Llewellyn, the BBC's former middle east editor, has exposed the daily pressure the BBC is put under to report the Israeli government's point of view as a result. "One experienced reporter in the field told me how producers from The Today Programme would ring the office in Jerusalem with story ideas launched by the Israeli embassy; how the Israeli version of events was so often received as the prevailing wisdom in London; how Israel successfully amended the very language of reporting the crisis."

And this version of what you rightly refer to as a tragedy is the version the UK public generally get. Imc uk makes some attempt (not, according to the stats, an unbalanced one) to counter it.

Your writer asks why imc uk attracts anti-semites - the term has no real meaning, but let's assume they mean crazy people. The answer is because they sense they have something to fight against; actual, living human reality, as reported by the Brighton delegation to Palestine, for example, and featured in imc uk's main column.

Unlike your writer, sixty-four percent of Israelis recognise this reality. They are demanding a dialogue with Hamas (poll reported in Haaretz 27.2.08). Are they anti-semitic?

Anyway, of course you can stand by a villlification of imc uk, and still maintain that there's no need to play heroes and villains. But I hope your writer does go and look at their piece again, because:
a) The main "Go Hamas Go" feature they complain about as being pro-Hamas and anti-semitic, was, ironically enough, exposing the Hamas leadership attempts to fake a photocall, by using candles and a blackout to simulate a power failure.
and
b) The commentator called "infidel" who claims to have written the original piece, and to support Hamas despite its policies, plainly doesn't realise this either.

It can be confusing, open publishing. And it is a constant struggle, from what I remember, to keep the hate off the board. But I agree with Rasputin, this piece, and your subsequent comments, won't help.


A


Interesting

23.05.2008 19:33

The phrase "Indymedia Uk is not run by a collective of anti-Semites" shows up word for word in geniza.wordpress.com too. The SHIFT article also just happens to mention San Francisco Indymedia, which Gehrig has commented on repeatedly. Hmmm.... wonder who the "anonymous" author could be?

Hmmm


Priorities

23.05.2008 23:28

IMC should not feel guilty for representing the hatred Palestinians feel for Zionists or even Jews without censorship, whether it is their culture, religion or race. Simply publishing these sentiments is not an editorial endorsement of them. The fact that most on the left share the politics of anti-Zionist groups is not relevant to the sub-political prejudices, or hatreds of such groups, which are a completely inevitable side-effect of a long, bitter conflict. The holocaust was over 50 years ago. We need to grow up and shift the parameters of the debate about Palestine and the left, to completely dismiss the false stigma of "anti semitism". It is bullshit.

What really discredits Indymedia are animal rights nutters and radical feminists (it used to be MI5-esque trolls). .Just because conspiracy theories don't fit into the mainstream left consensus doesn't mean they don't have a place in left or anti-capitalist theory. Yet leftists are willing to "support" any bullshit ideology or activism, including a quasi-religious desire to see no violence done to any living being or to forceably reconfigure human sexuality. (Pro-abortion and animal rights theory are obviously incompatible). This is far more ridiculous, nonsensical and insane than a little cynical conjecture about what happened on 9/11, for example. Those who label conspiracy theorists as stupid or mad are just insecure intellectual bigots.

Meanwhile the left buys into this particularly pernicious idea that conspiracy theory itself is a kind of anti-semitic meme or meta-theory, because it blames individuals or groups rather than social systems. It is as if we somehow lived 100 years in the past when pre-Marxist socialism meant the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and blaming the Jewish bankers. Ie. the left has forgotten Marxism so badly that it secretly seems to fear itself to be "National Socialist". The left is uncomfortable blaming specific groups because it has lost any theoretical analysis of what part they might play in the whole, and therefore where this blame might end. There is the terror of being perceived as totalitarian, and of losing moral authority, by contradicting onself in partly blaming a victim group (jews) for an "absolute evil" ("US imperialism").

anonymous


Excellent Piece

24.05.2008 00:25

The Plant (author of the Shift piece) is only gnashing its teeth because, unlike so many IMC sites it routinaly attacks, UK Indy is highly-moderated, and its Disinformation and attacks are not tolerated.

Warning to all Indy Media readers

"The person(s) who (wrote the article, if they are the same person who attacks IMC) is responsible for the majority of spam on Indy Media sites. He/she has put some vile racist articles about Muslims all over this site and others. He/she also posts equally vile anti-Semitic articles in an attempt to discredit Indy Media sites. On other sites throughout Canada this person is known as "The Plant".

 http://ottawa.indymedia.ca/en/2007/07/4867.shtml

"Though all other readers of Thunder Bay Indymedia are welcome back now that the site is once again functioning, you should not be surprised to discover that you and your religiously intolerant hate spewing anti Arab racist propaganda remain unwelcome. Your obsessive abuse of the Indymedia network across the entire country has wasted countless hours of volunteer time that has been spent attempting to provide alternatives for local media content.

Once again, all material unrelated to local issues will be hidden.

The administrators of this site apologize for the disruptive behaviour of a racist who lives far away and dedicates an unhealthy and obsessive amount of time to trying to destroy this community forum. In hopes that we can not allow a bad apple to spoil the bunch, as the old saying goes, please do your best to navigate the site around him."

 http://www.thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2006/12/26693_comment.php#28239

No Middle East Peace Without Tough Love
By Henry Siegman

25/04/08 "Al-Hayat" -- - We now have word that Tony Blair, envoy of the Middle East Quartet (the UN, the EU, Russia and the United States), and German Chancellor Angela Merkel intend to organize yet another peace conference, this time in Berlin in June. It is hard to believe that after the long string of failed peace initiatives, stretching back at least to the Madrid conference of 1991, statesmen and stateswomen are recycling these failures without seemingly having a clue as to why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is even more hopeless today than before these peace exercises first got underway.

The scandal of the international community's impotence in resolving one of history's longest bloodlettings is that it knows what the problem is but does not have the courage to speak the truth, much less deal with it. The next peace conference in Germany (or in Moscow, where the Russians want to hold it) will suffer from the same gutlessness that has marked all previous efforts. It will deal with everything except the problem primarily responsible for this conflict's multi-generational impasse.

That problem is that for all of the sins attributable to the Palestinians - and they are legion, including inept and corrupt leadership, failed institution-building and the murderous violence of the rejectionist groups-there is no prospect for a viable, sovereign Palestinian state primarily because Israel's various governments, from 1967 until today, have never intended allowing such a state to come into being.

It is one thing if Israeli governments had insisted on delaying a Palestinian state until certain Israeli security concerns were dealt with. But no government that is serious about a two-state solution to the conflict would have pursued without let-up the theft and fragmentation of Palestinian lands that even a child understands makes Palestinian statehood impossible.

Given the overwhelming disproportion of power between the occupier and the occupied, it is hardly surprising that Israeli governments and their military and security establishments found it difficult to resist the acquisition of Palestinian land. What is astounding is that the international community, pretending to believe Israel's claim that it is the victim and its occupied subjects the aggressors, has allowed this devastating dispossession to continue and the law of the jungle to prevail.

As long as Israel knows that by delaying the peace process it buys time to create facts on the ground that will prove irreversible, and that the international community will continue to indulge Israel's pretense that its desire for a two-state solution is being frustrated by the Palestinians, no new peace initiative can succeed, and the dispossession of the Palestinian people will indeed become irreversible.

There can be no greater delusion on the part of Western countries weighed down by guilt about the Holocaust than the belief that accommodating such an outcome would be an act of friendship to the Jewish people. The abandonment of the Palestinians now is surely not an atonement for the abandonment of European Jewry seventy years ago, nor will it serve the security of the State of Israel and its people.

John Vinocur of the New York Times recently suggested that the virtually unqualified declarations of support for Israel by Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy are "at a minimum an attempt to seek Israeli moderation by means of public assurances with this tacit subtext: these days, the European Union is not, or is no longer, its reflexive antagonist." But the expectation that uncritical Western support of Israel would lead to greater Israeli moderation and greater willingness to take risks for peace is blatantly contradicted by the conflict's history.

Time and again, this history has shown that the less opposition Israel encounters from its friends in the West for its dispossession of the Palestinians, the more uncompromising its behavior. Indeed, Olmert's reaction to Sarkozy's and Merkel's expressions of eternal solidarity and friendship have had exactly that result: Olmert approved massive new construction in East Jerusalem- authorizing housing projects that were frozen for years by previous governments because of their destructive impact on the possibility of a peace agreement-as well as continued expansion of Israel's settlements. And Olmert's defense minister, Ehud Barak, declared shortly after Merkel's departure that he will remove only a token number of the more than 500 checkpoints and roadblocks that Israel has repeatedly promised, and just as repeatedly failed, to dismantle.

That announcement shattered whatever hope Palestinians may have had for recovery of their economy as a consequence of the seven billion dollars in new aid promised by the international donor community in Paris last December. In these circumstances, the donor countries, not to speak of the private sector, will not pour good money after bad, as they so often have in the past.

So what is required of statesmen is not more peace conferences or clever adjustments to previous peace formulations, but the moral and political courage to end their collaboration with the massive hoax the
peace process has been turned into. Of course, Palestinian violence must be condemned and stopped, particularly when it targets civilians. But is it not utterly disingenuous to pretend that Israel's occupation-maintained by IDF-manned checkpoints and barricades, helicopter gunships, jet fighter planes, targeted assassinations and military incursions, not to speak of the massive theft of Palestinian lands-is not itself an exercise in continuous and unrelenting violence against more than 3 million Palestinian civilians? If Israel were to renounce violence, could the occupation last even one day?

Israel's designs on the West Bank are not much different than the designs of the Arab forces that attacked the Jewish state in 1948 - the nullification of the international community's partition resolution of 1947. Short of addressing the problem by its right name-something that is of an entirely different order than hollow statements that "settlements do not advance peace"-and taking effective collective action to end a colonial enterprise that disgraces what began as a noble Jewish national liberation struggle, further peace conferences, no matter how well intentioned, make their participants accessories to one of the longest and cruelest deceptions in the annals of international diplomacy.


Henry Siegman, director of the US/Middle East Project in New York, is research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Program, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. Siegman is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America.

Long Time Coming ...


'Stimulating necessary debate'

24.05.2008 01:20

Not from Shift wrote:
"So you think my argument stands or falls on the word inundated does it?"

No - but I think your hysterical claims are not exactly conducive to a measured debate. As for the newswire being 'preposterous' because less than 2% of the posts showing on the front page at the moment are on a subject you want banned, well thats a pretty subjective statement and I happen not to share it. The comments and additions are available to you to put your viewpoint, but if you can only communicate in hysterical exaggerations and cliches, you probably won't get take seriously. And if you choose to ignore the 'personal abuse' guideline, they'll most likely get hidden.

Re: Shift's critique of Indymedia:

"Hi, a friend has told us about a public IMC list, where indymedia moderators had started a bit of a slaggin-off match against Shift Magazine, and an article we published in the last issue of our zine, calling it shit, bullshit, digging in the sewers, disappointing, sensationalist, worse than the Daily Mail, rubbish, gutter and so on…"

Well, I can only answer for my bit of that:

The full sentence I wrote was:

'We have never come up with a satisfactory response to our Belgian troll and he
is now an integral part of the claims of that article - although it is of
course telling that SHIfT and the author had to dig in the sewers to get their
'shit'.'

And that is referring specifically to the whacking great statement on the second page of your 'article' which says "they vowed that Indymedia had lost their support and that they would stop using the site" - which is based on hidden comments (the sewer)- mainly from one user - who has in fact posted on this thread today - so he didn't even mean it!

Shift Magazine wrote:
"We then sent an email to the list, saying that we feel there’s not enough political discussion in ‘the movement’ and we wanted to stimulate debate about some controversial topics, like anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories. We also explained that this was not to harm indymedia, but a statement of opinion."

Yup - you first publish a poor quality attack, then you advertise it on this site, then you get surprised that it isn't welcomed with open arms, and THEN you contact us and say you want to stimulate debate about a controversial subject. As it goes, I don't think the comments you referred to in your first para were an attack on you, they were statements of opinion on the quality of your editorials and the article. Yet you perceive it as "Indymedia STARTED a slanging match" - well, no they didn't - as quite a few had said, they'd never heard of your zine before. So think hard - you're academics, how did it start?

As for stimulating debate on a controversial subject, isn't it true that the debate was already raging when you decided to step in? There seems to me to be quite a few list emails on the subject that predate your article by months.

Shift Magazine wrote:
"What we don’t like about your reply:
- that you cite statistic at us instead of answering our points, we don’t care whether it’s 5% or 11% of pro-Palestine posts on your site; it’s the quality of those posts that we question"

One of your points was a claim that after the network meeting in Nottingham '...Blog reposts about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict multiplied and have since taken up a large part of the newswire. The remaining moderation collective however withstood the pressure to hide many those posts despite an editorial guideline that sets out that "articles that are simply cut and pasted from corporate news sites" may be hidden.'

We were interested enough to check it out and see if there was any truth in the claim. We don't think there is. As to the quality of the posts, we're not academics grading students papers, we're mods on an open publishing newswire and we have to work with what we get. Our task is to decide if they breach guidelines, and whether they should be hidden or not.

Shift Magazine wrote:
"We have an anti-nationalist, anti-state focus. We think all states are historical entities tied in with the development of capitalism, and should be criticised as such (saying Israel is evil, Palestine is not, makes no sense to us)"

Well, we're just a sleepy backwater - no-one has bothered to inform us that Palestine is a state - the last thing we heard, it was an occupied territory ruled by Israel. That is not to say that there has never been criticism of Hamas and Fatah on the wire, because there has .

What appears to be missing from your analysis of the Israel/Palestine situation is the racism that fuels it - one can only wonder if that was intentional.

Shift Magazine wrote:
"You advocate conspiracy theories as an 'act of resistance'.

Do we? That isn't my reading of the text. Rather I read it as an attempt to explain why people might be attracted to them.

Shift Magazine wrote:
"Again here we differ – we think conspiracy theories neglect that capitalist exploitation happens on an everyday, mundane level. At best, they divert attention from resistance to everyday injustice. At worst, they serve to pitch religious or ethnic groups against each other."

They also seem to provide something for all sorts of people to spend hours railing against. Sometimes I think that that energy might be better directed to resisting the capitalist exploitation - but maybe those who do the railing are better at multi-tasking, than those who regard themselves as 'truth activists'?

Shift Magazine wrote:
"Then you say that it’s not impossible that secret services planned 9/11.
Again, we differ: we think radicals should have a critique of terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism, martyrdom, etc. There’s nothing wrong with that."

Nothings impossible, is it? Its even possible that one day you'll notice how value laden and one sided the terms you think people should critique are. In the meantime, I rather suspect that people will continue to think about the things they think are important, rather than rely on you for an approved list. Maybe if you contribute some interesting critiques they'll think about them too, but I doubt that you can compel them to do anything.

Shift Magazine wrote:
"Again you respond with statistics but ignore the questions raised by reposts from dubious blogs on your site. You defend Atzmon and Vineyard of the Saker and say that comparing Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto of WWII is “an exaggeration” and “not funny” – we think it’s the sort of revisionism you’d expect to find on white supremacist and nationalist websites."

I don't think you read it through very thoroughly - I can't find any defence of Atzmon being offered, and the "not funny" actually reads 'it is not really funny seeing people 'competing for victimhood', but 'monopolising victimhood' the way Zionists do, for example, is not funny either.

Personally speaking, I don't find it surprising that people who have been brought up to view the Holocaust as the 'most evil moment in the history of the planet' would refer to it when they saw systematic ethnic cleansing and genocide. I don't see how that can automatically be considered to be revisionism, even if it is inaccurate. What other well known atrocity do you think might spring to mind when viewing the hell that is Gaza?

Shift Magazine wrote:
"You also defend the “go hamas go” comment, by putting it helpfully into context. Shame that you omit that the same person also argues that little that the Wikipedia entry tells him about the organisation (Islamist, suicide bombings, creation of Islamic state, hierarchical etc) can make him “less inclined to support Hamas”. As such, we as editors agree with the general argument in the article. And we believe that you get your priorities wrong if you defend such views."

"Go Hamas Go" is signed by 'Proper Gander' and the other comment is signed 'infidel' - you might think they're the same person - but it aint necessarily so..... Your revulsion for Hamas - the elected representatives of the Palestinian people - is shared by George Bush and most of the Western leadership. They are often wrong you know...... and sometimes it can be good to try and be more balanced than them......

Shift Magazine wrote:
"We think there is no need to get so defensive when people register their frustration with indymedia moderation. Take it as a viewpoint that you can choose to ignore; but it still exists. We hope you can see our editorial and the article as a way of stimulating necessary debate, and that you can come round to welcoming it."

I think there is no need to get so defensive when people register their frustration with Shift's editorial policies and articles. Take it as a viewpoint that you can choose to ignore; but it still exists. I hope you see our response as a way of continuing the necessary debate that we embarked on, which lead to your getting involved, and that you come round to welcoming it.

Please note this is my personal response - and in no way does it claim to reflect the views of anyone else.

The usual place to deal with moderation issues is on the moderation list:
 imc-uk-moderation@lists.indymedia.org.

ftp


Is FTP the conspiraloon?

24.05.2008 08:52

Come on then ftp out with it do you believe 9/11 was an inside job? How many thousands or tens of thousands do you believe are in on it and are biting their tongues?

You say nothing is impossible and that you can always look the other way if there are issues i don't like.

A totally bogus argument - it's not impossible that there are giant lizards killing our babies for religious purposes, i don't like that viewpoint and think it stands in for a different one but under your logic we should publish it and then just look the other way.

Of course there is no such thing as open publishing in that form, it was killed with the first wave of the internet and the argument you use has been bogus since then.

My point is that Indymedia - the technology and its protocols can't deal with all this conspirabollocks and it is a problem because it chimes with the low level of grip on what capitalism is and how it works. So people can think that the problem with capitalism is that a small group of morally bad or evil people run the world. If only it were that simple we could replace them with a set of nice people and they could run the world in a nice way for us.

The protocols of Indymedia and how they are selectively applied are part of the problem. They don't allow you to ridicule stuff that is ridiculous.

When someone says they have seen Elvis on the moon, you can't say they're bonkers but are only allowed to debate the amount of oxygen given off by lunar rocks or some insane bollocks.

The definition of paranoia is to believe that all information is coming from a single all controlling source. To call someone paranoid is sometimes accurate. Is this allowed or is that an insult?

Anyway ftp I'm sure you'll find some form of pedantry to continue avoiding discussing any of this. Perhaps it'll be that in fact you saying 9/11 conspiracy theories are possible only took up 2% of your total reply, which is statistically insignificant and so it doesn't count therefore you didn't say it.

Not from Shift


Ridicule = political argument?

24.05.2008 09:46

You do mean loon as in someone who has been declared a lunatic, right?

Why exactly should I bother with you if thats how you're going to engage politically?

I certainly think that the official story is about as credible as the Iraq (and now Iran) WMD lies - however, as it goes I tend more toward the LIHOP theory - I think it unlikely that such a massive operation was planned without the myriad of security services knowing that it was in the planning (or even infilitrating and influencing those who planned the attack). There are many aspects of the response to the execution and aftermath of the attack that have never been satisfactorily explained - and I think it is pure naivety to suggest that the ruling class are never involved in conspiracies. Price fixing cartels, bribery and corruption are examples of conspiracuies that they often engage in.

"A totally bogus argument - it's not impossible that there are giant lizards killing our babies for religious purposes, i don't like that viewpoint and think it stands in for a different one but under your logic we should publish it and then just look the other way."

Oh hurrah - another strawman.......... next you'll be complaining that the site in awash with this theory because it appears in your comment, and I quote it. Right?

"My point is that Indymedia - the technology and its protocols can't deal with all this conspirabollocks and it is a problem because it chimes with the low level of grip on what capitalism is and how it works. So people can think that the problem with capitalism is that a small group of morally bad or evil people run the world. If only it were that simple we could replace them with a set of nice people and they could run the world in a nice way for us."

Well, I think we've already established that 'conspirabollocks' have not taken over the site, and I think you'll find that a number of 9/11 stories have been hidden. So, I would say that Indymedia is dealing with it, and is continuing to provide space for people to challenge it and to offer up their own "right way of thinking" because you make it clear that you have the truth ... its just that you can't express yourself very well due to your kneejerk need to ridicule, belittle and use discriminatroy language.

Why not take the time to tell us what capitalism really is, and how we can overcome it instead of resorting to ad homs?

The last time I looked capitalism was in no danger from the radical left - maybe you can show us the way?

In the meantime, I have no reason to believe that your viewpoint is more valid than anyone elses, that you have any more 'truth' than a 'truth activist', or that the best way to 'stimulate necessary debate' is by barring the subject from the site, or by filling the newswire with ad hom attacks.

I look forward to hearing a coherent critique of capitalism, and a plan to overcome it and replace it with something nicer.

I suspect that I may be waiting a very long time.


ftp


Re: Anonymous

24.05.2008 11:37

Dear Anonymous

You say

"IMC should not feel guilty for representing the hatred Palestinians feel for Zionists or even Jews without censorship, whether it is their culture, religion or race."

Three reasons for not representing hatred, apart from guilt (?)
1. Being a mouthpiece for hatred is disturbing, depressing and pointless.
2. Rants, no matter how eloquent, are not journalism.
3. Such posts contradict the editorial guidelines, which is why they are removed.

I couldn't make much sense out of the rest of your post, either.

A


Hmmmm indeed.

25.05.2008 03:45

"The SHIFT article also just happens to mention San Francisco Indymedia, which Gehrig has commented on repeatedly. Hmmm.... wonder who the "anonymous" author could be?"

Dunno. Why not ask the folks at SHIFT whether it was me? If they're honest, they'll tell you they've never heard of me, most likely. Given that I've never heard of them, and I didn't write the article.

Has it occured to you that people repeat what I say, not because they're me in disguise, but because I'm right? And that Indymedia UK came out looking like absolute buffoons on the Atzmon thing -- mostly due to your deep thinking?

And that your credibility on the antisemitism issues is as shot as SF-IMC's was, not because of me -- as much as you'd like to blame me -- but because you blew it again and again and again, just as Nessie did while in the process of single-handed destroying SF-IMC?

@%<

gehrig


Anti-semetic smears and racism are the last bastion of the neoliberal.

25.05.2008 05:59

As well as anti-Semitism, Shift have promoted the idea that fascism is right-wing anti-capitalism. There’s nothing original about this, because neoliberals have always pushed the idea that fascism is somehow against capitalism.

The logic of the neoliberals argument is simple: fascism is against capitalisms, so I cannot be a fascist because I think capitalism is rather good, or the best we can do. What’s more the implication is that those against capitalism are possible fascists.

Actually, what we have seen this last decade is the outing of the neoliberal as fascist: the explicit neoconservative fascists in the US, and the New Labour neoliberal fascists who have tried to construct an argument that their anti-capitalist opponents are the fascists.

They say this because it is claimed facism is anti-capitalist. Of course it’s nonsense: Fascism is a form of capitalism ... without the red tape.

This is a very important point, because many neoliberals commentators really do believe - it being woven into the propaganda systems they are shrouded in - that racism is anti-capitalist.

The truth is that fascism is a neoliberal paradise where trade Unions are banned, forced labour and slavery can be used. It is capitalism without fetters like workers rights, and it is not policed by the Office of Fair Trading but by an national army that will murder you or put you in prison if you dont do what the boss says. That is any capitalist opposition is policed by the jack boot.


It is telling that SHIFT has has promoted the same idea. It’s irrelevant whether that just don’t understand or they are dupes.


Finally, Shift has now begun to attack Indymedia as anti-Semites. This ridiculous slur not really deserve comment, but it is necessary because the fascist neoliberal would like to equate being anti- Israeli foreign policy as being anti-Semitic; just as the USA likes to equate being anti-US foreign policy as anti-American

Yours as ever,

Harold Hamlet (Seeing further, by standing on the shoulders of giants)




KJDAK 92 324 2!”$• S J DJ DDJE ççGH NM NS ç K ? 2 @DDD ATE
Key: 15151727818200001992881772828828

Harold Hamlet
mail e-mail: harold.hamlet@virgin.net


following the debate

25.05.2008 09:55

I have been following the indymedia/shift debate and it has given me more of an understanding of how indymedia works. Before hand Indymedia felt a bit faceless and complex, but I enjoyed using it and found it really useful. Now I am much more conscious that the moderators are people with different opinions, having to make difficult decisions. I guess that is a more healthy way to view a media source.

I think its good to distrust academia, as it is often used as a weapon to attack movements. But in the UK, activists seem to dismiss any difficult/reflective/analytical type questions as academic! If you are interested in social change you have to be thinking critically and strategically, there isn't a straight road of progress, its full of turmoil and questioning isn't it?

Some of the lowest arguents, in my opinion, have been attempts to dismiss opinions because the author is not an impressive enough activist eg 'we haven't heard of you'. What a catch 22, unless you want to be a populist leader 'anarchist' or something, why the hell would you want to get a name for yourself?

x

jen


Response to David Gehrig

25.05.2008 11:23

"Has it occured to you that people repeat what I say, not because they're me in disguise, but because I'm right? And that Indymedia UK came out looking like absolute buffoons on the Atzmon thing -- mostly due to your deep thinking? "

Ha! Has it occurred to you that people might repeat your utterances, not because you're right, but because they happen to share the same ideological viewpoint as you? If you say that you didn't write the article, I'm happy to believe that - that the author chose to remain anonymous, whilst 'borrowing' heavily from your utterances without crediting the source was bound to make some suspect you. Your clarification further undermines their credibility.

As far as I can see, the debate about Atzmon is still raging on other sites, and no-one has yet managed to destroy him despite one of the most concerted smearing campaigns I have seen in a long time. In the article the author uses your statement that:

"Indymedia Uk is not run by a collective of anti-Semites."

However, they then go on to state that:

"The moderators strictly adhere to the anti-racist guidelines. Any racist post is immediately hidden or deleted. But many of the disputed posts are not racist. "

So, there is a difference in your positions. You spent weeks refusing to tell us where the anti-Semitism in 'Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath' is, which means that you refused to assist in clarifying whether the post was racist or not. You just kept pointing to the statements of some mods you agreed with, and refused to even think about the points being made by those who did not see racism in the article. And then you started your own version of Indymediawatch......

You and I have a fundamental disagreement about how to deal with matters that are uncomfortable, and not black and white:

Your attitude is expressed in your email to the list ( http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2008-January/0130-ip.html):

"Our collective's decision was this: if a part of the editorial
collective considers a post racist, or flirting with racist ideas
heavily enough to deserve hiding, then the rest of the collective
steps aside on that post and it is hidden. We as an anti-racist
organization don't give such 'grey matter' the benefit of the doubt.

Our reasoning was this: what are the respective down sides of hiding
'grey matter' versus keeping it up?

The downside of keeping 'grey matter' is this: if some editors
consider it racist, it's very likely that some readers will consider
it racist too. They will see Indymedia claiming to be anti-racist
while carrying racist posts. Indymedia looks like hypocrites.

If the reader complains, the reader must then be told, "sorry, rules
are rules -- even some of us think it's a racist post but we're
handcuffed, forced by our rules to leave 'grey matter' up." Which is
another way of saying, "Our rules are so supremely important and rigid
that we've decided we'd rather risk allowing people like you to be
ethnically or racially insulted on our site than bend our iron laws."

And I disagree - we work on a consensus model, which means that we should respect all viewpoints of those who are active members of the collectives. Where disagreement crops up, I think the disagreement needs to be resolved by going to the core of the problem, not sweeping the matter under the carpet - or suddenly dropping consensus and going for the 'tyranny of the majority'. Sweeping the matter under the carpet does not make it go away, it just creates a period of calm before the next disagreement. Or the next round of mudslinging from outside as in this case.

Indymedia should seek to include as many viewpoints as possible, in order to prevent it from becoming static and ideologically bound. We claim to be radical media (although I personally balk at the road that your property owning, state funded collective with its paid toilet cleaners has gone down), and that means that there should be space for contested ideas - and that the contested ideas should be dealt with creatively and respectfully. Too often self-annointed radical groups just end up mirroring the exact structures they are supposed to be in opposition to.

Hiding the article ends the discussion, which is exactly what happened when Atzmon requested that his articles be removed.

You say there are racist posts on the newswire.

Kindly post the urls to the moderation so that we can look at them and consider hiding them.

It seems to me that that is how a fellow IMCista should behave - rather than running around starting blogs on commercial sites which claim that there are anti-semitic posts on Indymedia uk ( http://geniza.wordpress.com/)

And once again, I think it is time that you start respecting our editorial guidelines and take your moderation issues to the correct list, rather than trolling the comments section......

ftp


no surprise

25.05.2008 15:19

Ah, Peeps. You didn't get it then and you don't get it now.

The whole point of the Atzmon affair is that is showed just how far you, you personally, were willing to go to demand the appearance of posts even members of your own UK collective found antisemitic. And UK Indymedia collective members began to quit in disgust over it. They didn't build IMC to be a conduit for racism, and didn't want to be a part of it if that's what you were going to force it to be. Your procedural victory -- short-lived as it was in Atzmon's case -- came at a very great cost for the reputation of IMC-UK.

You cannot simultaneously say "IMC-UK fights for justice" and "Antisemitic posts not unwelcome."

@%<

gehrig


And while I'm at it

25.05.2008 15:40

FTP: "And I disagree - we work on a consensus model, which means that we should respect all viewpoints of those who are active members of the collectives. Where disagreement crops up, I think the disagreement needs to be resolved by going to the core of the problem, not sweeping the matter under the carpet - or suddenly dropping consensus and going for the 'tyranny of the majority'. Sweeping the matter under the carpet does not make it go away, it just creates a period of calm before the next disagreement. Or the next round of mudslinging from outside as in this case."

In other words, as long as a sexist post has even a single defender in the UK collective, one person who can't see the sexism in it, it won't be taken down, and will stay there stinking up the site. As long as a racist post has even a single defender in the UK collective, one person who can't see the racism in it, it won't be taken down, and will stay there stinking up the site. As long as an antisemitic post has even a single defender in the UK collective, one person who can't see the antisemitism in it -- something the Atzmon-defending ftp is particularly bad at, as it happens -- it won't be taken down, and will stay there stinking up the site.

And if the direct result of this is that the IMC-UK readers have to wend their way around sexist, racist, and antisemitic posts -- well, that's their problem. And if they can't see why a "progressive" site is offering itself as a conduit for sexist, racist, and antisemitic posts -- well, that's their problem too, and they must just not be as good "progressives" as you are.

This did not used to be how IMCs ran. And this is clearly one of the reasons IMC-UK's reputation, in your hands, is devolving.

@%<

gehrig


whatever David Gehrig

25.05.2008 15:41

The fact remains that you still cannot show me where the anti-semitism in the article is - and you also seem to have missed the fact that the "procedural victory" wasn't mine......

"In other words, as long as a sexist post has even a single defender in the UK collective, one person who can't see the sexism in it, it won't be taken down, and will stay there stinking up the site. As long as a racist post has even a single defender in the UK collective, one person who can't see the racism in it, it won't be taken down, and will stay there stinking up the site."

Strangely enough the wire is not 'inundated' with racist, or sexist posts and the self-appointed Indymedia expert on anti-semitism has failed to notify the moderation list of a single anti-semitic post, in addition to failing to identify any anti-semitism in the Atzmon article. So you appear to be talking nonsense.

I have nothing further to say to you till you back up your claims.

Which isn't going to happen - your tactic is mud throwing and smearing - theres nothing radical or meaningful to back it up. Self-appointed expert on anti-semitism that you are, you have nothing of substance to offer.

ftp


what a riot you are, ftp

25.05.2008 16:02

All that posturing about open speech for everything except, what do you know, criticism of ftp himself, He Who Is Not To Be Questioned. Hide it at once!

I spent quite a bit of time showing you exactly why Atzmon's an antisemite. You just preferred not to see it. And then you hid it to ensure that no one else could see it either -- just another example of your characteristic intellectual dishonesty.

Why bother to go through it again when it's clear you've already got the duct tape over your eyes and the cotton balls in your ears?

@%<

gehrig


Circular road to nowhere

25.05.2008 17:24

"I spent quite a bit of time showing you exactly why Atzmon's an antisemite."

Yes - I'm sure -but the evidence is here, repeated requests for you to identify the anti-semitism in the article:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/11/386759.html?c=all

Remember, it was the view of Indymedia's self-appointed expert on anti-semitism that I was looking for - where is it that you showed the anti-semitism in the article - at which point in that thread did you demonstrate it? If, as it appears to me, you didn't, please provide a link for where you did.

Otherwise people might not believe you ..............

No link - no point in continuing. The link above clearly shows why.

Bye Bye

ftp


What a Load of Critiques!

25.05.2008 22:33




I have been following the debate. It’s not just about running around in circles, splitting hairs and bull shitting, is it? It all boils down to this, doesn’t it? If Palestine played Israel at football, which side would you support? Or, if Israel decided to allow Palestine to be a state, wouldn’t Palestine be welcomed into Eurovision . So had they been in the Eurovision Song Contest last night, which would you have given your 14pts to?


Actually, it doesn’t. For one, because of Racism, I don’t think that Palestine, even if Israel gifted them with Statehood, would be invited into Eurovision. And secondly, I don’t think the IMCerites would give a damn about who won a football match between the two, or even care about which of them might win Eurovision. (By the way, I was rooting for Spain and France)


That said, I would really like to take this opportunity to say, what a bloody marvellous job the IMC volunteers do (and I have seen them in the thick of action, moderating racist post) to bring us the news that the state, the ruling elite, politicians of every hew, government, police and intelligence services just don’t want us to hear.

As for the critique-rites, you are entitled to your opinion. But why be so generous with that opinion? Is it because you too don’t like what you read on IM.

No doubt the state will be trying it’s best to disrupt IM. But sometimes it is very difficult to tell the difference between a supporter of Israel, like David, and someone hired by a state to disrupt IM. David you’re a smart guy, what do you know about this that WikiPedia doesn’t.


Yours as ever,

Harold Hamlet





Harold Hamlet


David Gehrig of UCIMC: Indymedias' embedded zionist troll.

29.05.2008 14:41

It is worth noting that although Gehrig has not returned to this thread, he has posted three comments [1 | 2 | 3] since his last post to this thread. Despite being asked to respect the editorial guidelines, which state that complaints about moderation issues should be taken to the moderation list, all three comments are complaints about moderation. His refusal to abide by the editorial guidelines, despite the fact he has been pointed to them several times, is certainly suggestive of trolling rather than responsible behaviour by a fellow IMCer.

This is entirely consistent with his form, which is to utilise Indymedia as a platform for orchestrating campaigns against posters, IMCistas and IMCs that he percieves as anti-semitic - and those in his sights have included Latuff, Nessie of the San-Francisco-Bay-Indy collective, Kurt Nimmo, Gilad Atzmon and Wendy Campbell, in addition to Jordan Thornton and myself. Thus he excortiates me for not hiding Thornton posts even though there are well over 50 active log-ins to the admin interface.

Is it Indymedia uk's' role to declare Atzmon an anti-semite? In a non-hierarchical consensus based collective, how can that happen when some members of the collective do not agree that he is anti-semitic, and where the majority of those favouring a ban give no explanation of their reasons? In my view, in the absence of consensus as to a complete banning of someone who is connected to the activist scene in the UK, however individual members of the collective might feel about that, the only way to justify hiding was to demonstrate that there was anti-semitic content in the post. This is where Gehrig could have played a role - he could, as a self-annointed expert on the subject have pointed directly to the alleged anti-semitic content of the article.

Yet, what Gehrig cannot do is show that he pointed to the anti-semitism in 'Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath', despite being repeatedly pressed to do so. And the question is why he consistently refused to do so - he's been more than willing to lecture on the subject of anti-semitism and Indymedia in the past [1 | 2] and yet here he chooses to dodge, evade and change the subject when given the opportunity to show where the anti-semitic content in the article is . Thus he writes above "I spent quite a bit of time showing you exactly why Atzmon's an antisemite" - which wasn't the question at all - he had claimed that for as long as the Hunters article stayed up Indymedia UK had a "Jewish problem" and yet, when invited to help resolve the matter by pointing to the anti-semitism in the article, he decided that he would point at other IMCistas in the UK collective, not one of whom had identified anti-semitism in the article. He then claimed that "the Jewish Problem that UK-IMC has is that IMC process requires unanimous consent, and you've thrown a block, thereby allowing an antisemitic article by a notoriously antisemitic writer to remain festering on your newswire." In fact I had stepped back from the decision altogether, and the block was from another IMCista.

SHIfT and gehrig claim that Indymedia UK has lost support because of the Atzmon affair, and yet the evidence is flimsy. SHIfT bases it on hidden comments, mostly from one serial disruptive troll, and in an email the editors claim that "many activists we know are frustrated or angry" which may say more about them and their circle than about us. After all, a recent article called "The Exploding Christian Vegetarian Movement: or Thou Shalt Not Kill Animals" has within the space of a day attracted numerous comments questioning its suitability for the newswire - yet somehow those who are said to have objected to the Atzmon article failed to comment (for months) or to contact the relevant list, choosing instead to share their concerns with the editors of a magazine most of us had never heard of. Some users of the site clearly feel they can question posts, and yet SHIfT would have us believe that they know 'many' who are upset over the article and we have no way of knowing who these people are.

Gehrig who is based in Illinois claims that "Indymedia UK came out looking like absolute buffoons on the Atzmon thing" and that was "not because of me -- as much as you'd like to blame me". How exactly would he know then? He can hardly claim to have the ear of UK activists, and he says that the SHIfT editors have probably never heard of him. But he did try to influence the outcome, by starting his blog, albeit anonymously, and by working together with an allegedly anti-zionist blog, as well as trolling the comments section of Indymedia UK.

Gehrig is a controversial member of a controversial IMC. In 2006 an email to the www-features list sought to distance the UCIMC collective from Gehrig, claiming that:

".....Gehrig isn't actually involved with the day-to-day structure/decision-making of our IMC -- he supports the IMC's work, is an active poster on our website, and has never asked for anything in return or any control over any of our workings."

And yet, gehrig had previously written an email 'on behalf of UC-IMC Steering' seeking to do a bit of damage limitation after the same person who above claimed that Gehrig wasn't part of the decision making of the UC-IMC, had caused an upset by claiming that "There are over 150 Independent Media Centers in 50 plus countries worldwide. And this IMC here in Urbana-Champaign is the umbrella under which the entire global network operates. We are in essence the global headquarters for the Indymedia movement, here in Urbana."

Prior to that, another member of the UC-IMC collective issued a statement saying that there was discomfort in the collective with the contents of a statement that Gehrig had issued on their behalf, and without their knowledge or agreement, regarding Latuff, another of his long term targets.

If Gehrig aspires to be more credible than a troll, he should start notifying complaints about moderation issues to the appropriate list, but the truth is that he was indistinguishable from the zionists on "Indy Media Watch", where he posted for some time, prior to its demise, and its unlikely he will ever do more than seek to troll and undermine .

Perhaps he has found the link now.........

ftp


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