Islamists and nationalists threaten to march on Wooton Bassett
Phil Dickens | 02.01.2010 16:13 | Anti-racism | Social Struggles
Though the date has yet to be disclosed, Anjem Choudary and Islam4Uk have threatened to march upon the small market town of Wooton Bassett. If the only opposition to this march comes from the fascists of the EDL, then this will represent a major failure of the left.
Last October Anjem Choudary's Islam4UK, front group for banned Al-Muhajiroun, tried to organise a procession through London to Trafalgar Square calling for the implementation of Sharia law in the UK. The day after it was announced, I made the following plea on Indymedia;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439878.html
"The march commences at the House of Commons, and will make its way to Trafalgar Square via 10 Downing Street. It must be met with opposition, not from the fascists of the far-right, but from those whose resistance is grounded in working-class unity, anti-fascism, and anti-capitalism. Moreover, that opposition must be one which transcends race and religion."
Soon afterwards, British Muslims for Secular Democracy, ENGAGE, and the Alliance for Workers' Liberty made similar calls. AWL echoed my sentiments on the need for "a working-class, anti-capitalist, anti-racist presence that can make a positive case for secularism, workers' unity and common struggle against the far-right communalist reaction of both Islam4UK and the EDL."
As I wrote at the time, the result was a succesful routing of Islam4UK's intended actions;
http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2009/11/al-muhajiroun-and-english-defence.html
"Whilst the marches by the EDL had galvanised al-Muhajiroon to organise the march in the first place, the promise of a radical, left-wing, secular opposition all but stopped it in its tracks. Choudary cited "right-wing/anti-Islamic organisations" and "threats of violence" as the reason he "relocated" the march. In reality, his "overwhelming support from the Muslim community" was non-existent, and the organised opposition had come from the radical left. Clearly, seeing his planned "clash of civilisations" unravel in the face of broad-based working class unity, the fanatical cleric was reduced to spin to justify cancelling the march in favour of backroom rant to ever-dwindling numbers of the faithful."
However, it would seem that Choudary is willing to try again. This time, the target of his reactionary politics is the small town of Wooton Bassett;
http://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs/uk-news/421--coming-soon--wootton-bassett-march
"The destination of this very special event is the small market town of Wootton Bassett, located 6 miles Southwest of Swindon, in northern Wiltshire; Wootton Bassett, is currently famous for its public mourning processions held in memory of British soldiers killed whilst on military service in Afghanistan; coffins containing the dismembered bodies of these soldiers are usually draped in union jack flags and driven through the town centre from RAF Lyneham, as a tribute to their ‘sacrifice'.
"The proposed march by members of Islam4UK is however of a very different venture, held not in memory of the occupying and merciless British military, but rather the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were and continue to be horrifically murdered in the name of Democracy and Freedom - the innocent Muslim men, women and children.
"It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.
"We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade."
Once again, the need is clear for an opposition to this march "whose resistance is grounded in working-class unity, anti-fascism, and anti-capitalism." The English Defence League have declared their intentions to oppose the march "in defence of our British soldiers," and the radical left must offer a perspective against both the militant religionism of Islam4UK and the aggressive nationalism of the EDL.
Clearly, the idea that British soldiers are "merciless" participants in "genocide" is ridiculous. But so too is the idea that anybody can be "heroic" in an illegal war of aggression fought to maintain western hegemony over the Middle East. Soldiers are neither heroes nor villains but members of the working class who, like everyone else, must sell their labour to survive. That it was the armed wing of the state who employed them is not in itself enough reason to raise them on a pedestal or condemn them to hell.
Both Choudary and the EDL would divide up the population of Britain into those who only oppose war out of a demented religious fanatacism and those who are blindly loyal to the sentiment of "my country, right or wrong." The vast majority of people who fit into neither camp, and particularly for those who realise that the crimes of militarism and the bigotry of religious fundamentalism must be opposed with equal veracity, need to make their voice heard.
Once more then, I offer a call to arms. If we allow the streets to be dominated by reactionary movements, then it will be a major failure. When Islam4UK descend on Wooton Bassett, then our voice must drown out both Choudary and the EDL;
No Gods, No Masters - NO MULLAHS AND NO FASCISTS!
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439878.html "The march commences at the House of Commons, and will make its way to Trafalgar Square via 10 Downing Street. It must be met with opposition, not from the fascists of the far-right, but from those whose resistance is grounded in working-class unity, anti-fascism, and anti-capitalism. Moreover, that opposition must be one which transcends race and religion."
Soon afterwards, British Muslims for Secular Democracy, ENGAGE, and the Alliance for Workers' Liberty made similar calls. AWL echoed my sentiments on the need for "a working-class, anti-capitalist, anti-racist presence that can make a positive case for secularism, workers' unity and common struggle against the far-right communalist reaction of both Islam4UK and the EDL."
As I wrote at the time, the result was a succesful routing of Islam4UK's intended actions;
http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2009/11/al-muhajiroun-and-english-defence.html "Whilst the marches by the EDL had galvanised al-Muhajiroon to organise the march in the first place, the promise of a radical, left-wing, secular opposition all but stopped it in its tracks. Choudary cited "right-wing/anti-Islamic organisations" and "threats of violence" as the reason he "relocated" the march. In reality, his "overwhelming support from the Muslim community" was non-existent, and the organised opposition had come from the radical left. Clearly, seeing his planned "clash of civilisations" unravel in the face of broad-based working class unity, the fanatical cleric was reduced to spin to justify cancelling the march in favour of backroom rant to ever-dwindling numbers of the faithful."
However, it would seem that Choudary is willing to try again. This time, the target of his reactionary politics is the small town of Wooton Bassett;
http://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs/uk-news/421--coming-soon--wootton-bassett-march "The destination of this very special event is the small market town of Wootton Bassett, located 6 miles Southwest of Swindon, in northern Wiltshire; Wootton Bassett, is currently famous for its public mourning processions held in memory of British soldiers killed whilst on military service in Afghanistan; coffins containing the dismembered bodies of these soldiers are usually draped in union jack flags and driven through the town centre from RAF Lyneham, as a tribute to their ‘sacrifice'.
"The proposed march by members of Islam4UK is however of a very different venture, held not in memory of the occupying and merciless British military, but rather the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were and continue to be horrifically murdered in the name of Democracy and Freedom - the innocent Muslim men, women and children.
"It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.
"We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade."
Once again, the need is clear for an opposition to this march "whose resistance is grounded in working-class unity, anti-fascism, and anti-capitalism." The English Defence League have declared their intentions to oppose the march "in defence of our British soldiers," and the radical left must offer a perspective against both the militant religionism of Islam4UK and the aggressive nationalism of the EDL.
Clearly, the idea that British soldiers are "merciless" participants in "genocide" is ridiculous. But so too is the idea that anybody can be "heroic" in an illegal war of aggression fought to maintain western hegemony over the Middle East. Soldiers are neither heroes nor villains but members of the working class who, like everyone else, must sell their labour to survive. That it was the armed wing of the state who employed them is not in itself enough reason to raise them on a pedestal or condemn them to hell.
Both Choudary and the EDL would divide up the population of Britain into those who only oppose war out of a demented religious fanatacism and those who are blindly loyal to the sentiment of "my country, right or wrong." The vast majority of people who fit into neither camp, and particularly for those who realise that the crimes of militarism and the bigotry of religious fundamentalism must be opposed with equal veracity, need to make their voice heard.
Once more then, I offer a call to arms. If we allow the streets to be dominated by reactionary movements, then it will be a major failure. When Islam4UK descend on Wooton Bassett, then our voice must drown out both Choudary and the EDL;
No Gods, No Masters - NO MULLAHS AND NO FASCISTS!
Phil Dickens
e-mail:
mutantbumblebees@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com
Comments
Hide 31 hidden comments or hide all comments
The EDL are not fascists!
02.01.2010 16:26
Anti-fascist
Great article
02.01.2010 16:49
Ruby
Use your loaf
02.01.2010 17:33
Tosher
You don't have to be with the EDL to oppose islamism
02.01.2010 17:51
For those of you who want to find out more about the real EDL, then join their web forum and see all the postings from their main contributors -- what comes across is that they are ultra-authoritarian, hate all muslims, and don't mind if neo-nazis get involved if they behaviour themselves.
against state and nationalism
anarchist
Resident
02.01.2010 17:58
Eva
Look at us
02.01.2010 18:06
Antifa
The Fascists!!
02.01.2010 18:12
The EDL are not fascists, the self proclaimed UAF are!!
The EDL are here to rid this country of the radical Islamism that threatens to destroy us all!! Why don't you grow a pair and stand with us against these evil, Islamic terrorists and UAF marxist-fascists!!??
Geert Wilders
e-mail:
gitfon@gmail.com
Dining out on this
02.01.2010 18:12
Che
EDL
02.01.2010 18:24
The thinker
British War Criminals
02.01.2010 18:29
"It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.
Every British politician, serviceman and anyone who has facilitated these crimes should be arrested and charged with war crimes... I don't really give a flying f*ck what people like the so-called 'Fascist', 'Anti-Fascist' or anyone else thinks... most of these organisations are financed by the self-styled 'Oligarchs'.
The Muslims in Britain have as much right to demonstrate and have their voice heard as any other goup... those who wish to silence them with slander and lies are extremely suspect. Could some of those posing as Anti-Fascist actually be racist, bigotted Zionist Jews I wonder?
Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing!
Little John
Flood gates
02.01.2010 18:39
EDL
The whole facts
02.01.2010 19:00
Biscuit
Up for it
02.01.2010 19:05
Antifa
Communist Hypocrisy
02.01.2010 19:16
This all smells of hypocrisy to me. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims have been murdered by British and American forces during these aggressive invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan... don't their lives count? I have no respect for British politicians or servicemen whatsoever... they should all be tried for war crimes.
The British have prospered over the past couple of hundred years by plundering and feeding off other nations... does anyone want to talk about that?
Little John
Whos a hypocrite
02.01.2010 19:30
Little johns mate
Completly and utterly agree
02.01.2010 21:08
I'll dye my hair if I see any UAF there though as they might be seen as "racist" if they protest against an far-right islamic group
Jamie The Antifascist (GingerMilitant)
agree!
02.01.2010 21:59
riku
@ LittleJohn
02.01.2010 23:24
No, of course not. But if freedom of speech is universal, then it includes the freedom to voice our *opposition* to those demonstrations we dislike.
Also, there is a difference between speech and organisation. If the BNP / EDL / Islam4UK want to get together in a pub and just chat about their vile ideologies, then that's fine with me. But when they start organising to put it into practice, then I'm willing to stand up and stop that from happening by any means neccesary.
"Hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims have been murdered by British and American forces
during these aggressive invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan... don't their lives count?"
First of all, not everyone in the Middle East is a Muslim, so by making that statement you're denigrating the deaths of innocent non-Muslims. And secondly, learn to read before you react. The article explicitly condemns the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and opposes militant Islam without offering apologism for war crimes.
"I have no respect for British politicians or servicemen whatsoever... they should all be tried for war crimes."
Really? Every single one? Whilst we're at it, let's hold low-wage employees at clothing stores accountable for the third-world sweatshops run by their bosses...
"The British have prospered over the past couple of hundred years by plundering and feeding off other nations... does anyone want to talk about that?"
For what purpose? Learning from history is vital for the future, but liberal guilt about the past is a distraction from the concerns of the present.
Phil
@riku
02.01.2010 23:30
If I were a homosexual, I would not want to live in an Islamic Community where I was not welcome. There are plenty of other places that would be happy to have you.
Little John
what if...
03.01.2010 08:52
...already lived in an islamic country and always had?
...were simply making the point that the left never acts when muslims stand in the street spouting violently homophobic views, and yet do when white racists spout their rubbish?
justme
Scared
03.01.2010 10:29
Eva
Have I missed something
03.01.2010 10:34
Suggs
ban it
03.01.2010 10:50
Max
um....
03.01.2010 11:35
anyway this is exactly what the edl want, they are media savvy, they come out saying they are only against radical muslims for example, and that they are against the nazis....making it seem they are a single issue party. (they even say they are pro-female rights-do we believe this?)
there just opportunistic facists, getting in on a bandwagon and not telling us what they really want until their in....
riku
@riku
03.01.2010 11:59
Josh
agreed
03.01.2010 12:10
ACAB
ivica
Think people
03.01.2010 12:16
anti-imperialist
Our Daily Mail Mentality?
03.01.2010 13:16
Tosher wrote:
Well, besides the fact the EDL was borne of the aftermath of tabloid thunder over the Luton Protests by Ahle Sunnah al Jamah, Tosher (who is probably EDL) is spot on in recognising that this is tabloid created thunder.
The current uproar appears to have been started by the Sun who reported the plans on January 1st. The Press Association picked it up the next day, and in a classic example of churnalism, according to Google News there are already 190 stories (and rising).
A comment on a Nafeez Ahmed post (which draws attention to historic links between the state and al-Muhajiroun aka Islam4UK) notes:
Suspicious indeed. But excellent fuel for the corporate media and state drive to create a frenzy of Islamophobia in the UK. There are probably more important targets than this small sect which is opposed by the likes of zionist groups like "ENGAGE, and the Alliance for Workers' Liberty" (cited in the article.)
Jamie The Antifascist (GingerMilitant)
Whilst the behaviour of the EDL clearly warrants opposing, jumping on the media bandwagon because some religious bigot is a deluded dreamer is a less obvious road to take. As Jamie goes on to note, any such counter-demo will run the risk of making the left look Islamophobic or racist, and will run the risk of doing exactly what the state wants.
Riku:
The EDL on paper are not homophobic. However, those who take to the streets under their banner do not appear to be gay friendly or tolerant. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is inherently homophobic, being based on texts that are centuries old. Clause 28 of course was a lot more recent than that, and the Anglican church remains divided over the question of homosexuality. Riku doesn't make clear who was holding this rally outside Camden Tube Station, but it does raise the question of whether he expects anti-fascists to oppose every religious meeting which is not tolerant of gays.
Ivica:
It will indeed be a cold day in hell before we see Britain under Sharia Law - emergency military law is far more likely - and in any case, the parliamnetary process already includes a religious dimension.
No gods, no bosses, no rulers
Now I'm confused
03.01.2010 15:24
Simon
edl4islam
03.01.2010 18:22
I (I dunno about all this we stuff) dislike the EDL. I Dislike islam4uk (not because they want sharia law - unjust laws are the same wherever they originate) but because of their idiocy.
I'm against both sets of authoritarian idiots, and in the case of the EDL they present a threat to us all. islam4uk are little more than a joke and can safely be ignored.
@
repressed Islam
03.01.2010 20:50
ahmed
freespeech or nospeech, that is the quesstion.
03.01.2010 22:20
If you do decide to go, please be nice to the locals!
bob
Dark Blue and Dark Red - all tends to Black
04.01.2010 10:13
National Socialism anyone?
Facist Watch
Silent Conspiracy
04.01.2010 11:11
Johni Darko
what a circus
04.01.2010 11:41
the edl with their star of david flags or radical muslims w/ amerikan security origins?
hmmm?
meanwhile ...
jackslucid
The degradation of the left
04.01.2010 12:00
It is ridiculous that the so called left refuses to target these perceptions and instead focuses on marginal groups some of which (Islam4UK) has been led to hold (narrow minded and bigoted) extremist views partially due to the conditions imposed on many of their countries of origin by the UK government, armed forces, and to some extent the people that line up to commemorate the murderers who return dead from the war.
You my friends in the UK 'left' hold the same double standards that the rest of the population holds.
Maybe focus on the true issues here.
T
Religion = Fascism
04.01.2010 12:29
If Islam4UK were marching to introduce a religious state, then fuck 'em and I'd be the first to oppose them.
The main thing is to be anti-authoritarian, whether that authority be the state, the military, religion, or fascism.
atheist
@The Daily Mail Mentality
04.01.2010 12:33
anon
Unbelievable
04.01.2010 12:51
Little John
In the media
04.01.2010 13:00
The Chairman
Have you seen this
04.01.2010 13:12
Tony
Stay away
04.01.2010 13:37
And we can't call the people opposing the march facist cos it looks like the majority of the population is rounding on Islam4uk
Skunk
Is this true
04.01.2010 14:00
Short change
Beware of trolls
04.01.2010 14:19
Antifa
Choudary
04.01.2010 15:04
Anarchist
Get me a brief
04.01.2010 15:15
Atheist
It is right to demonstrate against the British army
04.01.2010 15:17
For the record their slogans were
'British Army: murderers'; 'British soldiers burn in hell'; 'Baby killers shame on you'; and 'British soldiers you will pay'
And their placards say 'Anglian soldiers - Butchers of Basra'
anti-imperialist
News flash
04.01.2010 15:28
Che
A wager
04.01.2010 15:38
Either the law wont allow it or Islam4uk wont show.
He's already got his publicity and EDL have got more recruits ,job done
Realist
great psyops ...
04.01.2010 16:04
Controlled opposition groups will ensure that it is only the state and their war on terra that will benefit from this confrontation between the ridiculous and the bizzare.
If you are anti-war, you might be tempted to get behind this obvious and coherent criticism of the open murder of women & children for oil, israel and $$$.
If you oppose the possibility of religious law becoming the defining standard, you might feel that you want to demonstrate against those calling for it.
If you are anti-fascist, you might feel tempted to demonstrate against the EDL.
If you are all three - then stay at home ... don't get involved in this circus.
The media will ensure that any support for these home jihadists will be turned into support for the EDL, who whilst supporting zionist aggression also support an openly racist/fascist position vis a vis any Muslim presence in English lands - whatever they might want us to believe.
I'm with 'atheist' on this one and a plague on both their houses.
jackslucid
Some constructive criticism
04.01.2010 17:39
Piss off the lot of you.......Fascist scum
T
Question
04.01.2010 17:46
Mate of T
Lets have it
04.01.2010 17:49
Genghis
A.C.A.B. = All Coppers Are Bastards
04.01.2010 18:27
I despise religion as much as anyone but it is quite scarily Big Brother how the media are talking about banning or arresting people just for peacefully expressing an opinion. How the fuck can it be inciting hatred just to commemorate all the people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hands of UK troops and others? Seems like on the fascism scale, EDL and Islam4UK are small beer, but the UK state wins the prize.
Islam4UK pledged the protest would be peaceful with symbolic coffins representing Muslim victims.
On its website the group said it was "totally unacceptable" to honour servicemen who had contributed "directly or indirectly" to the deaths of "well over 100,000 Muslims in Afghanistan in the last 8 years".
"We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the 'Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade," the website states.
Home Secretary Alan Johnson said he would support calls to ban the march.
Mr Johnson said: "The idea that anyone would stage this kind of demonstration in Wootton Bassett fills me with revulsion.
"The people behind this stunt seek only to incite hatred and discord.
atheist
EDL on radio
04.01.2010 18:47
Yes 'tommy robinson' was on radio 5 live on the victoria derbyshire show today (04/01/2010)
Wales
oh dear....
04.01.2010 20:41
bob
"carrying empty coffins...."
04.01.2010 21:05
To carry empty coffins through the same town in the same manner is just trying to rub people's noses in it and designed to piss people off - nothing more. So, of course people are going to find it offensive for the 'reasons' that it is being done.
Freedom of speech does not give the right for people to be deliberate cunts.
Maximum
you EDL twats
04.01.2010 22:57
fucking EDL have taken over indymedia again because no where else is offering criticism of their bullshit along with criticism of islam4uk bullshit - if indeed thats what it is, as i know not much of I4UK, to be honest - and frankly these lot come on IM and take over with their incessant trolling. i might troll my own way, but at least im anti-fa, animal lib, anti-capitalist and anti state. for fucks sake, is there any one else here like me, or has EDL truly taken over this space???
FOR FUCKS SAKE, EDL FUCK OFF!
He'll lend the bottom can't ya or, helena bonham carter
you EDL twats
04.01.2010 22:58
fucking EDL have taken over indymedia again because no where else is offering criticism of their bullshit along with criticism of islam4uk bullshit - if indeed thats what it is, as i know not much of I4UK, to be honest - and frankly these lot come on IM and take over with their incessant trolling. i might troll my own way, but at least im anti-fa, animal lib, anti-capitalist and anti state. for fucks sake, is there any one else here like me, or has EDL truly taken over this space???
FOR FUCKS SAKE, EDL FUCK OFF!
He'll lend the bottom can't ya or, helena bonham carter
helena bona carter
05.01.2010 00:17
if you don't know much on I4UK, then how can you say people's criticism is trolling !? Amazing
No, EDL has not took over this space. People are just writing comments that you don't agree with.
Its just you have been smoking too much and are paranoid that everyone is against you. Chill out and lay off the weed for a while.
coy and friendly
EDL
05.01.2010 00:23
EDL
Loss of perspective
05.01.2010 00:51
Yes, Choudary has said some coherent things about the war, but so has Nick Griffin. And both are still complete pricks who have conversely said some truly godawful things.
And yes, Islam4UK is a vile and odious sect. All religious fundamentalism is to be opposed. And that doesn't negate the aggressive nationalism of the EDL.
Seeing things in black and white is the job of the right. For those on the left, a much clearer perspective is needed.
Phil
"Freedom of speech does not give the right for people to be deliberate cunts"
05.01.2010 00:54
Anyway, how is commemorating the hundreds of thousands who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan (many of whom are children or non-combatants) cuntish? It sounds like decent civilized behaviour to me. It's outrageous that these jingoistic marches don't already commemorate the dead on both sides.
It is the British state and military who are being deliberate cunts in killing them in the first place, never mind ignoring their deaths.
Remember this has been a very one-sided war, we get a front page every time some poor squaddie fucker gets his arms and legs blown off but hundreds of civilians can be murdered by UK or US troops in some fuckup and it barely makes the news. Are their lives worth less just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in a certain country?
I'm sure Islam4UK would be deliberate cunts if they were to achieve any sort of power, but in this instance they are totally doing the right thing - it seems to be quite a good PR move for them, certainly a lot of media are printing their point of view. Although I'm sure the government likes it too, so it can equate opposition to The War Against Terror (TWAT) to support for fundamentalist Islam.
anon
Freedom of speech
05.01.2010 01:10
otherwise I could sit outside your house eight hours a day calling you a cunt every minute and justify it under the right to freedom of speech
fos does not justify walking up to an old lady and hurling abuse at her
it's not a free card to be offensive to people
at the end of the day a huge proportion of people are totally against this sham of a protest
Maximum
Maximum Repression
05.01.2010 09:22
Offensive to them or not in the end if a minority group wants to honour the dead that they feel more affiliated and compassionate to then they have every right to do that wherever they please. Denying them this right is denying those victims the humanity and recognition they deserve and is very much a fascist mentality.
I personally am more offended with the mentality of the residents of Wootton Bassett whose political apathy is catalytic to the continued massacre taking place in the middle east.
T
re: Freedom Of Speech
05.01.2010 09:48
We're just arguing semantics here. The problem there is harassment, not freedom of speech.
"fos does not justify walking up to an old lady and hurling abuse at her"
Islam4UK aren't doing this, they are planning to march holding coffins to commemorate the dead.
"it's not a free card to be offensive to people"
No, but it can often involve expressing opinions that some people find offensive. I find the jingoistic military marches offensive. Are you saying they should be banned then? What kind of fucking Stalinist totalitarian state do you want us to live in?
"at the end of the day a huge proportion of people are totally against this sham of a protest"
Maybe a few morons who are brainwashed by the Sun and the Daily Mail to think according to the Government line.
Are you saying "fuck the kids who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan"? Their lives are worth shit? What an unpleasant point of view.
Here is a quote from Hermann Goering, Hitler's second-in-command:
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
anon
Maximum Daily Mail Mentality
05.01.2010 09:52
"at the end of the day a huge proportion of people are totally against this sham of a protest"
Because all they know about it is what they have read, seen or heard in the corporate media. Unless of course Maximum you've asked every individual in the country (in which case you missed me) you only know this because the same corporate media tells you so.
Strangely enough, 'a huge proportion of people' [1] want the troops to stop killing innocent men, women and children.
How is that huge proportions of the people can adopt such contradictory positions? Is it because the journalists make it up maybe?
Why is it so distasteful to the people of Wooton Bassett to have coffins carried in memory of innocents who have been killed? We should be told.
[1]
No gods, no bosses, no rulers
guardian reading, hang wringing, cappuccino slurpers
05.01.2010 10:46
If they want to protest, then fine. But, by going through Wootton Bassett they are deliberately trying to rub people's noses in it. It would be like doing a protest at someones funeral..... effectively following the coffin and prancing around shouting "baby killer". Is there any proof that that particular soldier in that coffin has killed a baby? Of course there isn't.
He has actually admitted hes "delighted" that hes stirred up a load of trouble. So that's his aim - to piss people off. If he actually gave a hoot about all the people that died in afganistan then he wouldn't be "delighted" about anything. He's just another politician trying to rise up a political ladder by using people's fears for his own means. Someone who is "pleased" that he has achieved a level of publicity for himself.
I don't like the sound of the guy. I've read about his background and he sounds like a major soap-dodger. Apparently hes in a £350,000 house and living on benefits. Thats a much better lifestyle than i will ever have, and he doesn't even have to work for it !!! Hes just another rich toff feeding off the taxpayers like any other politician who is only interested in his own destiny of becoming a powerful figure in his organisation.
It seems every other day people get killed by suicide bombers. 88 people killed the other day. Whos protesting about those deaths? No one.
Maximum
so?
05.01.2010 12:55
Good.
I should imagine that should those many millions directly suffering from the loss of loved ones in far away places look upon the spectacle of British military pomp sending off those few dozen lost soldiers they might feel their noses being 'rubbed in it'.
The question here is, are you to act like an British person and decry this invasion[sic] of politicized grief, or act like a human and see that the bigger picture dictates that we show support for those millions of victims of British wars.
... again, a few dozen vs a few million, if you are having trouble framing this debate in some moral light!
daily malstrom
liar
05.01.2010 13:55
If you are lieing about that, what else are you prepared to lie about to get your fruitcake loonie into power so he can ban christmas dinners and lash us for drinking a few pints? Please list all your lies in order of bullshit
Maximum
re: liar
05.01.2010 14:16
Maybe not in Iraq directly, but if you add up all the deaths from recent wars the UK has been involved in, I'm sure it is hundreds of thousands if not millions killed by UK troops and their allies. Include all the deaths from blockades of medical supplies etc.
Anyhow, the exact number isn't really the point. I think we both agree it is a large number, too much by any sane person's standards.
> If you are lieing about that, what else are you prepared to lie about to get your fruitcake loonie
> into power so he can ban christmas dinners and lash us for drinking a few pints? Please list
> all your lies in order of bullshit
Not sure how you stumbled across this site, but I think you'll find most people here are atheists who would quite happily bash in Islam4UK leaders' heads if they went any way to getting any sort of power.
It's a case of we despise the group but agree with this particular message of theirs. And speaking of banning "Christmas dinners", seem like the politicians you love so much are moving that way already by banning peaceful funeral processions. The UK govt and Islam4UK aren't so far apart after all.
anon
Maximum Carnage
05.01.2010 14:25
T
The fat lady has sung
05.01.2010 15:43
There is no way 10,000 British servicemen (including non-combatants) havn't killed 2 million+ Afganistans. You are barking mad.
What you are effectively saying is that the British lives are worth "less" honouring because more Afganistans have died? Ie. If only 10 Afganistans were killed then honouring the british soldiers would be ok. But because it is a higher number then it is not ok.
The only point of comparing numbers is vengence.
Its all a mute point anyway. The sham march is to be banned. There is a huge number of people who have indicated they are totally against it. End of.
The only good thats come out of it is that more people are aware of the fruitcake running Islam4UK and his weird ideas on how woman should dress and how we should all be saved by Islam.
Maximum
Is this normal
05.01.2010 16:52
Antifa
re: The fat lady has sung
05.01.2010 17:26
I think we are talking at cross-purposes here. You are talking about just UK troops, they are talking about deaths caused by all nationalities. You are talking about just Afghanistan, they are talking about other places e.g. Iraq and maybe others. Weren't something like half a million killed in the first Iraq war?
> What you are effectively saying is that the British lives are worth "less" honouring because more Afganistans
> have died? Ie. If only 10 Afganistans were killed then honouring the british soldiers would be ok.
> But because it is a higher number then it is not ok.
I don't think anyone is saying that. If one set of people can march to remember a small part of the dead, why can't another set of people march to remember the rest of the dead? It's not one or the other, why not both?
Plus most people killed on the Iraqi and Afghan side are just civilians anyway, and their country was invaded. Suppose Iraq invaded the UK and killed your kids or family, and you had relatives in Iraq. Would you want to be them able to remember their deaths in Iraq?
> Its all a mute point anyway. The sham march is to be banned. There is a huge number of people who
> have indicated they are totally against it. End of.
I think you mean "moot point". What a great day for freedom when peaceful marches are banned. Maybe it will be a peaceful march you want to go on that will be banned next.
> The only good thats come out of it is that more people are aware of the fruitcake running Islam4UK and
> his weird ideas on how woman should dress and how we should all be saved by Islam.
That is a good result, true, but not the only one. More people are now aware that the many people are pissed off that people die on both sides.
anon
i was right
05.01.2010 19:57
So those 500 empty coffins had nothing to do with remembering the dead in afganistan. It was all about getting exposure in the media
Maximum
Some good comments are hidden here
06.01.2010 10:00
(note just change c=on to c=all in the URL)
I can see why some of the comments are hidden, they are nonsense or fascist trolls, but a lot of good comments have been hidden too, including mine. It kind of puts me off using Indymedia when I spend a sizeable chunk of my time crafting a good comment only to see it vanish.
Please Indymedia admins, can you be less trigger-happy on hiding posts?
anon
Don't feed the trolls
06.01.2010 10:11
Comments are subject to the same guidelines as articles, and long trolled threads turn people off Indymedia as well.
If you think a comment has been unfairly hidden then contact the moderation list through the editorial guidelines.
Please remember that IMC uk provides a newswire with a specific mission statement, not a debate or discussion forum.
IMCista
Worrying
06.01.2010 14:34
Little John
Facebook call to arms.
09.01.2010 15:29
The facebook arm of the left
Facebook group
10.01.2010 19:08
Phil
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