Pro-test meeting at Nottingham University, 20th March

Much appreciated. I can’t wait till these Pro-Test publicity junkies come to London for a debate. How will Pro-Test end up I wonder - all fighting each other for a place in the spotlight?

Have you people no shame?

Just because something is "effective" does not make it right. Is that your ethics? If it works, if it helps the cause, anything goes?

Sorry folks, but I think if you actually believe that there is a DIRECT connection between being a revolutionary Marxist and being anti-animal rights you are way off the mark. There is of course a connection. People who are attracted to Marxism are anti-spiritual. The Marxist dream is intensely anthropocentric, for HUMAN welfare above all else. At least in its self evaluation, "scientific". Which means statisticly speakign you would expect it rare to find a person who was Marxist and also concerned about animal welfare and qutie common to find a person who was a Marxist very pro science and technology.

Who the hell are these pro-test nerds? Seems to me they can't even agree to disagree. We have Prof T.A saying that he wants to see a return to cosmetics being tested on animals then we have the rest of his comrades stating that they don't agree on testing cosmetics on animals. What exactly are the pro-vivisection lab people campaigning for?....a new wonder drug like VIOXX, Lipobay, Troglitazone, Eraldin, Opren or Lotrafibin (and the endless others) - yeah well done vivisectors for those fatalities, bet the families of the people that died of taking those drugs are well pleased with your advances in medical science.

"Have you people no shame?"

Not really, after all we dig up grannies, threaten students, run terrorist training camps in sunny Kent and have links with the IRA.

Good to see another keyboard warrior, are you taking tips from the new Ray Winstone film; you've come to civilise us right?

yes roger, all those who oppose animal testing are the extremists portrayed by the mainstream media (who, incidentally, are not at all in the pockets of the pharmaceutical industry) just like everyone from the middle east is rag-headed suicide bomber

by the way, how's your job at gsk going?

Heres a great idea lets all invent divisions between different groups of protestors. Im neither a commie or an animal rights activist or a scientist. I have sympathies with all three sides of this so called debate. Marxism is based on scientific principals but that doesnt mean that all marxists are pro vivesection. I have heard many animal rights types use scientific research to illustrate a point such as the sentience of certain mammals. I think the biggest question is where does the idea come from that the issues of animal rights and human progess are bitter opponents. Many scientists are pro-vivesection while many others are against it. This is what pisses me off about this debate generalisations on both sides are making it difficult for either human science or animal rights to progress. I know this could be perceived as off topic but I needed to say it..

Me, work for GSK? You must be rolling around in fits of giggles son.

Sarcasm, it's a beautiful thing.

Too be honest, I am quite insulted that you think I have some sort of support for the brutality that is vivisection.

Despite the RCP/LM/IoI's origins in (very idiosyncratic) sectarian Trotskyism, the cult isn't Marxist, except in the most theoretical and abstract sense, and absolutely loathes the Left. The cult's 'philosophy' is based on "Enlightenment values" and an unquestioning support for human material progress, regardless of cost to the environment, or even to other humans. I suggest that you look at the links I posted to get any idea of their philosophy before you accuse anyone of "red-baiting". They're no more "red" than Michael Portillo. What they are is a self-sustaining cult of personality based around Frank "Dear Leader" Furedi, and Pro-Test is plainly one of their groups - intensely and extremely humanist, and deeply contrarian.

Guinea pig

The person who says

“People who are attracted to Marxism are anti-spiritual”

needs to look at the history of Central America in the last 30 years. Where Catholic priests and nuns with Marxist views have been standing up for the poor and getting no support from the Vatican. Such priests and nuns have been murdered in their attempt to stand up for justice for the poor they lived and worked with.

Also saying

”you would expect it rare to find a person who was Marxist and also concerned about animal welfare and qutie common to find a person who was a Marxist very pro science and technology”

alludes to that old nonsense that if you are ‘against’ animals in laboratories you are ‘against’ science and technology.

The main thing to remember about Pro-Test is that whatever their supposed dogma they are the same bunch of self regarding cowards and opportunists you will find in any political circle where a person’s purported beliefs don’t cost them anything.

"Where Catholic priests and nuns with Marxist views have been standing up for the poor and getting no support from the Vatican."

Jajajajajaja, and all those good wee Catholic lands who rushed to fight for dear old Ireland.

I like this idea that vivisectors have the monopoly on science - what about all those charities that don't test on animals?

No actual argument to make against pro-test, so instead they try and link it to a marxist 'cult' and then argue against that.

pathetic. laurie, who actually started Pro-test, started it purely as a stand AGAINST SPEAK. whatever else it has come to symbolise, or its supporters may speak out about, the organisation stands for the right of scientists to go about their work without being terrorised by sanctimonious, misguided fools.

on a personal level, every animal rights supporter i've met has not been a psycho. HOWEVER. every animal rights ACTIVIST i have met - on stalls, at protests - has been misinformed, vicious and quite frankly, a wanker.

I thought for an argument there actually had to be a point, and Pro-Test doesn't really have a point. What is the point of Pro-Test people??? Answers on a postcard...

"Sanctimonious, misguided fools and misguided, vicious wankers" and you expect us to believe you're interested in debate?

Nob off back to your student halls.

'nob off back to my student halls'?? them's big words Roggie baby.

i graduated several years ago, as it happens. The point of Pro Test is to show that most people think SPEAK et al are.. well, vicious, sanctimonious wankers.

I'm all for debate about animal testing but every time I have engaged one of these imbeciles in the street they have resorted to defamation and ad-hominem 'arguments' so frankly, I'm using the language they seem to understand best :)

"The point of Pro Test is to show that most people think SPEAK et al are.. well, vicious, sanctimonious wankers."

Delusions of grandure. 300 odd students do not represent the thoughts of "most people."

"I'm all for debate about animal testing but every time I have engaged one of these imbeciles in the street they have resorted to defamation and ad-hominem 'arguments' so frankly, I'm using the language they seem to understand best :)"

Right... you know, you're so sad I can't even be bothered arguing with you AND I LIKE ARGUING!!!! *whacko alert* nenah nenah nenah

"Right... you know, you're so sad I can't even be bothered arguing with you AND I LIKE ARGUING!!!! *whacko alert* nenah nenah nenah "


Thanks for proving my point, Roger. You patronising, deluded fool.

Hello-
My name is Kristina Cook and I’m writing in response to the above posts made about me. Apparently, animal research isn’t your main focus, as what was posted about me was not related to animal research and my views on it but about a political front that you feel PRO-Test or I may be representing. So I wanted to clarify why I personally am involved. Let’s make animal research the issue here, not irrelevant politics.

I am a proud member of PRO-Test. I joined this recently formed group, because of the values it represents. That is, I support animal research, conducted in an ethical manner through the laws and regulations currently in place here in the United Kingdom.

I hold this point of view because as a chemistry/biochemistry D.Phil student at Oxford, researching biomedical science, specifically in cancer, I have seen and know why animal research is important to medicine. If you disagree, that’s fine, but please if you choose to make a smear campaign against me, at least use something that I’m actually involved with. The idea of me being involved with this Marxist Lenin group is rather ridiculous, as I have never been involved in these groups and don’t even know who these groups are.

That being said, let me also let you know I am an American, who just moved to Oxford in October. I have no interest in ever becoming a politician or promoting political agendas, either in the UK or America, and really could care less about any of the political parties here in the UK, but when my true passion, research, is threatened, I will stand up and fight for what I do and why it is done.

I find it strange and simply misinformed that you say I am a part of a political group that I don’t know of, and have no interest in becoming involved with. I guess you think this because I have an article published on spiked-online.com? To lay it flat out on the table, I am happy to write anywhere where I think I can explain why animal research is important, and why I believe in it. And if you read the article, I think what I am promoting and trying to say is quite clear.

Whenever I have a chance to educate people about animal research and the benefits it provides us with, I am more than happy to engage. Whether it is through spiked-online.com, BBC radio interviews, religious faith-based radio shows, newspaper articles and quotes in The Guardian, The Times, The Independent, the scientific journal Nature, or through blogs where I can participate in educated debates, I will take the opportunity to make my views of animal research known.

Like I said, my only real involvement is to promote my views about animal research and medical science. And that is what PRO-Test is set up to do and what the members within are striving to spread. Whether other people within the group are part of other political parties I feel, is rather irrelevant and unimportant because it doesn’t take away from PRO-Test’s legitimacy as promoting animal research. In any aspect of life, you will find a wide spectrum of political views, and I believe the same to be true in an activist group. If PRO-Test ever begins promoting these other ideas you claim people in PRO-Test are involved with, then perhaps then it will become a relevant topic for your discussion boards about PRO-Test.

What is important though, is that PRO-Test is about animal research and its importance to medical science.

I am passionate about science and the biomedical research I study for my education. This is why I plan to spend my life as a research scientist, working to improve the lives of others through the knowledge and experience I have gained, and not as a politician. And this is why I am involved in PRO-Test.

I hope that you can read this letter and hear it for what I am truly saying without judging or discarding it before thinking about it. If you would like to discuss more with me or engage in a coherent, logical debate, please feel free to contact me at  kristinacook1@gmail.com Thank you for your time.
Kristina Cook
D.Phil. Student of Chemistry/Biochemistry
Active Member of PRO-Test

Dear Kristina,

in your letter you sound very passionate. You are determined to "stand up for science" even if it means using the cult like LM group and their spin off PRO-test lobby group- just one of their many industry friendly spin off groups.

Kristina, if you are really concerned about human health and science, I suggest you cut ties with big business and propaganda outfits such as PRO test and work alongside those Doctors and Scientists who are doing their best to save science from becoming little more than a tool for big business at the expense of people, animals, and the environment.

When you speak on the BBC, or something you've written displayed in the Times or on Spiked-online.com, please don't forget to mention the Drs and Scientists opposed to animal experiments or the damage done to humans and the environment by products "safety tested" on animals.

Powerful industries have lots of corrupt and/or incompetent "experts" working on their behalf, Kristina, please make sure you don't become another one.