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Anti-RWB Protests, A Very Successful Failure.

The Long And The Short Of It. | 21.08.2008 11:43 | Stop the BNP's Red White and Blue festival | Analysis

A critical look at the events of last weekend.

It was less than a day after the RWB festival finished that local news reports in the Denby area started reporting that the residents were adamant the event would not be held on their doorstep next year.

The fact that local worries about clashes between the left and right had been building for several months was it seems only recognised by one group of anti-fascists and blatantly missed by others.

Indeed the usual suspects of old school trade unionists and ‘jump on the bandwagon’ Trotskyite groups, who had not even begun to mobilise until a couple of months prior to the event, ultimately seem to be stuck in the old left madness of negotiating with the police for no other reason than then becoming the ‘legitimate’ state sanctioned protest, guaranteed to do nothing other than portray themselves to be the vanguard in the struggle against British fascism.

This tactic is not missed on the majority of the left in Britain, and has created such apathy that a protest today is lucky to bring out less than a fifth of people it would have done a decade ago.

Their loss of all radical thinking has led to the inability to form any kind of strategy, such as one that recognised it would take very little effort to sway local feelings to those of outright objection to the RWB being held in the future.

This goes way over the heads of it’s instigators who are lost in the illusion that joining the machinations of parliamentary acceptability, somehow still maintains a revolutionary zeal with an ability to actually do anything other than become part of the problem.

How these groups, many linked to the SWP in one way or another, can even achieve the pitiful numbers they brought out to march past the RWB, is nothing short of a miracle. It is likely however that even those attending are in the not too distant future most likely to ‘burn out’, dejected and disillusioned, with what has become about as radical as a ‘walk in the park’.

Thankfully however it appears all is not lost. One organisation, Antifa, since it’s birth a few years ago, has constantly harangued and bitten chunks out of British fascist groups. leaving them with a constant headache they appear not to be able to medicate against.

The formation of Antifa, built by a handful of ex members from the untimely ‘drawing down’ of Anti Fascist Action as well as mobilising from the ranks of small but highly politically astute British anarchist groups, has rejuvenated a militant tradition going back to Cable Street, the Spanish Civil War and the 43 Group.

Watching their ‘tactics’ over the last year in the build up to the RWB has been nothing short of watching political genius at work. By appearing to be mobilising a mass group of activists from the UK and abroad it was always going to be a headache for local authorities not willing to take any chances.

Successful ‘no platform’ style actions against the British National Party and the likes of neo-nazi cult group the British Peoples Party, Antifa seemed to know that even by simply turning out a handful of people willing to do nothing more than produce five minutes of chaos, would be more than enough to produce the desired result, a Red White and Blue Festival no longer being held in Denby and the BNP organisers with a major problem on their hands i.e.

“Where do we find a local authority next year willing to take a chance on hosting the RWB?”

Amusingly, the fascist and neo-nazis on Stormfront have been having a field day.

Their belief that the propaganda put out by Antifa was actually implying the organisation genuinely believed they would shut down this years festival, and the far-rights lack of knowledge of ‘left-wing’ groups in general, the bigger picture seems to have completely passed them by.

So buoyed up with seeing a genuinely vociferous but small protest result in mass arrests they have convinced themselves Antifa have been crushed and those arrested are going to be doing years and years behind bars, which is about as likely as Nick Griffin joining the SWP!

Interestingly enough, at the time of writing, Antifa have not even officially confirmed they were actually there, another strategy which shows the level of a political militant awareness that leaves the far-right nervously cackling from the sidelines, convincing themselves all is well in their 'fatherland'.

Where the rest of the British ‘left’ go from here is at present unclear. While the likes of the SWP have already claimed some kind of victory out of actually doing nothing at all, it is of genuine concern that people will still fall for their redundant and impotent style of politics.

One thing is for certain. If the SWP and their front groupings such as the UAF are allowed to continue their nonsense, the genuine fervour of many on the so called ‘left’ will remain untapped.

There remains an anti-fascist militancy in Britain that is sitting in the wings just waiting for its chance to ignite. Let’s hope that the likes of Antifa are able to light the spark.

Their actions up to now and the likelihood that their inspired militancy has stopped the RWB being held in Denby in the future suggests they are.

The Long And The Short Of It.

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21.08.2008 12:51

I think we must file this lot of balls as wishfull thinking!


Not for everybody

21.08.2008 13:28

I'm not opposed to Antifa and similar groups but I am tired of potshots at the SWP (full disclosure: I'm not a member, though I did go to Marxism 2008, which was organised by the SWP). If anarchist/militant groups think that the UAF could do something better, perhaps they should organise a meeting with them and put forward some constructive criticisms. I've no idea whether it would be fruitful, but at least you could say you tried. The frustrating alternative is "the Left tearing itself apart" which in Britain it does regularly and very publicly.

Meanwhile I don't accept that the "state-sanctioned protest" is the sole reason why Britain is in a state of heightened apathy today. The reason why "A to B marches" might be seen as futile (though I don't personally) is because the govt can ignore a march and get away with it. There was an enormous collective world-wide action when Iraq was invaded, and yet this display of anger was ignored. Of course people are disillusioned - there are little or no ways to be heard, non-violently, in our "democracy"!

It seems that you are saying that militant and non-militant groups cannot both have actions and yet I am not sure why this is so. You clearly don't like the SWP but that is not in itself a good reason for them not to demonstrate. Even if their input is state-sanctioned, it nevertheless sends a message (in this case, that the BNP are a fascist party and they are not welcome wherever in Britain they set up shop).

Ultimately we need non-violent solutions as well as more militant ones. Otherwise we are effectively saying that protest (and democracy) is only for people who are physically fit and of a certain age. No people who are of a slight build, no children and no pensioners need bother coming along!


Dear Jon

21.08.2008 13:54

I take real issue with your assertion that Anarchism is somehow part of the split ridden left. We are part
of a very different political tradition, there are plenty of examples through history of how Parties in
the SWP's tradition have been nothing short of enemies of freedom and butchers of the working class. Their
Idols: Trotsky & Lenin, were personally responsible for the mass murder of anarchists and other
non-Bolshevik socialists.

I can understand why a state socialist would lament the bickering and dis-unity that is the most striking characteristic of the British left, with literally dozens of little sects arguing over who is the true socialist party (most over which are splits of splits of the SWP!). But please don't try and drag us into that mire. We are not a part of it, have never been, and will never be.

Anarchism stands against all leaders, be they Labour, Tory, BNP, SWP or anyone else for that matter, we are for the liberation of all peoples, for a revolution in everyday life. We are ANARCHISTS, if we
though that the Trotskyite ideology had any chance at saving the world and liberating the human spirt we may well have joined the SWP. instead we have chosen a very different path.

In the 15 odd years i have been an activist, I have seen many campaigns ruined by the involvement of the SWP and have found their distasteful tactics a problem in achieving the goals we had set out. I have witnessed some very good committed people pass through their ranks and end up completely disillusioned with radical politics. The worst thing the SWP have ever done in my opinion is condemn militant anti-war activities whilst endlessly harping on about the huge number of people in London at that big march. I feel had the anti-war movement taken the path of direct action I believe a lot less people would be dead. The blame for the course of 'bearing witness' on an a to b march can be squarely laid on the SWP's doorstep.

We have bigger problems than the SWP, but their ideology is an enemy of anarchism. If you wanna get an idea why anarchists (and many other sensible people) have a problem working with the SWP check out a few of these:


Not for everyone?

21.08.2008 14:26

If you look at the majority of Socialist Workers Party fronts there are far more situations where people are being denied opportunity. Last weekend became a farce, Weyman Bennett declared himself to be 'head honcho' and only his select few could head up to the gates of the Rwb hatefest, and we let him and his supporters get away with it. Granted the author could have ellaborated more in his/her article but in terms of inclusivity from Antifa's perspective it is covered in their founding statement.
There is more in that statement than anything I've ever read in years of Socialist Workers Party literature on the subject of inclusion.

Aiden Abettin

Hi Jon

21.08.2008 14:41

"If anarchist/militant groups think that the UAF could do something better, perhaps they should organise a meeting with them and put forward some constructive criticisms."
Are you aware that the Notts Stop the BNP group, having built a broad-based mobilisation against the RWB then saw Unite Against Fascism call a separate demonstration for a different time? And received no response to their requests for a meeting?
I think you're being slightly naive.


What about those arrested?

21.08.2008 14:48

Is there any news about those who got nicked?
Presumably they will need support in the way of £££ for fines?


Waste of time

21.08.2008 15:27

This is just pathetic ! The BNP has near zero support in this country probably about the same as the Far Left and yet they are discussed on IM as though they are about to sweep to power and set up extermination camps next Thursday.

Too many in groups like Antifa, the SWP and the rest waste time and energy on protesting against them when a policy of ignoring them would be just as effective. The RWB festival was a joke, go have a look at the videos on You Tube and the rest, a few hundred knuckle draggers in a field wearing England football shirts and drinking beer is not the Fourth Reich and never wil be.

If they had any real support, they would get votes, they don't. Any small election success they have had has been short term on the back of local short term issues. I wish the same energies people put into confronting the BNP was spent on real issues that matter, if they did we may well have a better world.



21.08.2008 15:45

Wasn't asking for names and addresses obviously. It's noticeable that people on IM love anti-fascist posts to mouth off incredible amounts of knee-jerk crap. However sometime some comments actually come from people with something to say. Asking about if everyone arrested is okay seems like solidarity. It isn't unknown for Defendents campaign to be put into action after mass arrests.


Dont worry Clive..

21.08.2008 15:47

Derek will be along shortly!

Mentodent P


21.08.2008 15:57

With the amount of fascists trolling on here it is not suprising nobody wants to say anything about anything about anything. Best policy in fact.




no votes you say?

21.08.2008 16:00

London Mayoral Election
Results by candidate for 2008
Candidate name Party 1st choice votes 1st choice % 2nd choice votes 2ndchoice %

Boris Johnson Conservative 1,043,761 43.20% 257,792 12.86%

Ken Livingstone Labour 893,877 37.00% 303,198 15.13%

Brian Paddick Lib Dem 236,685 9.80% 641,412 32.01%

Siân Berry Green 77,374 3.20% 331,727 16.55%

Richard Barnbrook BNP 69,710 2.89% 128,609 6.42%

Alan Craig Christian Peoples Alliance and Christian Party
39,249 1.62% 80,140 4.00%

Gerard Batten UKIP 22,422 0.93% 113,651 5.67%

Lindsey German Left List 16,796 0.70% 35,057 1.75%

Matt O'Connor English Democrats 10,695 0.44% 73,538 3.67%

Winston McKenzie Ind 5,389 0.22% 38,954 1.94%

Electorate 5,419,913
Papers counted / turnout 2,456,990
Turnout 45.33%


Whose violence?

21.08.2008 16:08

Jon, I think you are confusing violence with militancy. Personally I think that coppers protecting fascists are fair game, but even this direct action was NVDA in essence - read the eye-witness reports. A roadblock of some kind was attacked very seriously by riot police with the sole aim of putting down the action quickly by injuring and arresting those involved. I understand there were many injuries from batons as well as arrests, including broken bones. Police have not charged anyone for the action itself - everyone arrested will have to appear in a few months time to find our what the charges are. Personally I think they will have hard job convincing a jury that they didn't 'overreact' with their use of force.

This is the reality of protest in Britain. If you march and shout, nothing really changes - I marched with a million against war in Iraq (and Yugoslavia) and look were we are today. If you take action, if you are really careful and come across as fluffy or harmless you might not get a kicking but it's no guarantee. Witness riot police & mass stop and search & thieving antics of police at Climate Camp, or house raids after anti-arms company EDO actions.

If we seem a bit more threatening - miners at Orgreave for example, even those just wanting to keep Stonehenge as a free festival site, or the militant anti-fascism we saw last weekend (and over last century as mentioned in the article), we know we will face the reality of a very violent and intolerant state, a state that has made itself powerful by colonial violence across the entire globe, and with inventive tools of repression that have been used (and sold) both in Britain and abroad. This is what is faced in many repressive regimes - complain and nothing changes (or worse you get a knock on the door after), fight back in small numbers and you get crushed. We continue to taste this to a greater or lesser extent here in Britain.

In my mind, and this is the view of revolutionary anarchists, that we need a bigger number of people prepared to take on, and untimately dismantle the apparatus of the state along with the system of money and inequality it is protecting. This doesn't have to be groups of masked up people all the time (something sadly needed to protect identities again police on action like this) and ultimately a culture of direct action will need to be a lot more generalised and extended to a large population who will participate in militant action in many different ways according to their desires and abilities, convincing more and more people that the world can be changed for the better. But it has to be more creative than marching and rallying, and it has to be a real threat to the system. Direct action will do this if it inspires others and consciously aims not to be elitist, and prevents itself being coopted or taken over by those with reformist or authoritarian left agendas.



21.08.2008 16:28

@, thanks for your concern. There will be more info about the legal situation once all those on bail have communicated more and know if we're going to be charged. I'd be amazed if any convictions come out of this - I'm mostly just using being on bail for 'attacking the police' to pick up hotties...



21.08.2008 16:57

Great article and great comments.


Dear @ and Anarchist

21.08.2008 17:33

I've lost count of the number of hostile posts here regarding the SWP, and now I have two at once that put forward genuine arguments without getting angry. Thank you both! Incidentally Anarchist's views on the illusory nature of democracy - and the repressive systems employed to maintain the status quo - mirror my own very closely, so I was very interested to read his/her response.

Coming back to the issue I raised: anarchists and the SWP (and many other parties) are still part of the left, and are seeking much the same kind of social justice. Whilst I'm not saying that criticism should be avoided, but the original post (and many like it on IM) seem to be reporting events *in order to* take aim at parties they don't like (rather than concentrating on the defeat of fascism or militarism etc). This is what I mean by "Left tearing itself apart" - it's not a good picture to present to the public if all Leftists appear to do is squabble!

On the issue of DA versus marching: if the SWP made everything direct action, I am wondering how much involvement this would create. Even if they have made too much publicity capital from the 2003 marches, those actions nevertheless represented enormous democratic opinion that the mainstream media couldn't ignore (though it tried). If instead we'd had no marches but hundreds of direct actions, I fear that activists would have been branded troublemakers and terrorists (labels which have been applied, with some mainstream success, to Smash EDO, Climate Camp, anti-GM groups, etc). This would then upset the public, and if they're not on board, it's game over (police violence, petty arrests, harrassment of activsts etc).

Just a thought though: if your views are popular amongst anarchists, in your view(s) why hasn't direct action gained more of a foothold already, say over Iraq? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this happen. But perhaps it isn't as appealing to ordinary people as we would hope it to be? How many of the million 2003 marchers do we honestly think could have been converted to NVDA?



21.08.2008 17:42

Naive? If such a suggestion was accurate then I guess I wouldn't be in a position to comment! ;o)

I did hear about some timing differences but I wasn't aware that the SWP had ignored calls for a meeting. Thanks for the info.


Well that proves the climate camp was a failure then!

21.08.2008 17:54

Well that proves that the climate camp was a failure then if local residents are determind that they do not want the camp back in their area again! Well you certainly managed to piss off the locals didn't you?



21.08.2008 18:36

Most political commentary is as insightful as any arm chair critic of football. I listen to my conscience, innner vision, instinct, logic, I observe peoples actions and listen to their ideas. Every action by some one that is done in the name of some hierarchical organisation whatever they claim their politics to be is an oppressive action, one against freedom. Because it always relies on the authority that some one else with the veil of an ideology knows best. 'We belief this, that's why we joined this, that's why we all adhere to this set of rules that these few people best articulate for everyone's needs and if we could all just see that these are the superior politics then we would all live in harmony. If you don't protect your person, your identity, your freedom, some one else will abuse it, use it and take it away. We're all the same and you can dress it up however you like with as much flowery language about revolutionary socialism or whatever your chosen belief system, you can say it's not belief, it's politics but you can not hide the fact that what you are aligning your self to is power politics. I was in the SWP for years, I have worked closely also with the RCG-Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! and numerous other authoritarian groups including being brought up Irish Catholic, going to an Imperialist Private school and if you take the time to observe the way any such organistations work you will see that it involves the more experienced and therefore more valid communists getting the young impressionable or simply less experienced in the ways of revolutionoary socialism to do the menial tasks and the dirty work. Industry is destroying our world therefore the way to save our world is obviously to take control of industry because once the working class has control we'll all be saved. They are reformists, they don;t want to smash the state they simply want its power and any one who supports this power struggle is a legitimate target for those who want freedom, it is a war after all, we all ignore the truth at our own peril. I will not die or be incarcerated because of the ignorance of any one however well meaning


Build up

21.08.2008 21:16

Myself sitting on the sidelines was a bit dissappointed by Antifa's response to the RWB. All of the build up they had and all that happened was a few scuffles with police at the entrance to the RWB. Why bother????

If I was a main player in Antifa, I would firstly have never have advertised in advance any intentions and secondly would never have gone for a mass public protest where people would have been on view and liable for police scrutiny, especially when the numbers could not have been mobilised. All that was needed was a dozen people breaking into the RWB at about 3am setting of a few thunder flashes and creating a bit of mischief, creating a shock and awe scenario where panic and mayhem would have set in.

All in all it all turned out to be a damp squib. Antifa really need to sort out their planning department, nice try but nothing to boast about.

Black & Red

Black and Red

21.08.2008 22:20

Interesting. So if the festival is not allowed in Denby next year I suppose you'll class it as a defeat then...?


be truthfull dont exagerate

21.08.2008 22:37

of course saturday was a failure for us .the fash claimed the moral high ground, they caused no trouble just had a family festival while we threw bricks at the police. we only have one supporter locally "john lumsden" (and i,m glad he is one of us ).
we need to look from the outside how this will look overall and maybe change our tacticts . uaf were ott on the march .
we should not of stood for this. we did all the work to get where we are then they came along and tried too take the glory.we need to try to get some locals on our side so we can claim morally we are from denby etc etc .then we will have more credit with the press they are dying to get more views from locals opposed to the fascists. (apart from john )
all we can do is grow from this but we need to put our heads together and grow.
and not let others hijack our movement
there are more of us out there but we need a catalist to move forward.some friends of mine are despondent at what happened on saturday we need to build before people leave ....act now

me at least i was there

Red & Black

21.08.2008 23:13

Red & Black if you thought it was such a good idea why didn't you get yourself over there at 3am and set off some thunder flashes?


black and red

22.08.2008 01:32

I would say that the tactics Antifa used were highly successful.

By making a big thing in advance about turning up in numbers and disrupting the RWB, they managed to get the police to stop supporting the licence. This then turned into a big police presence. Lots of marchers, vocal people and also antifa didn't need to bash the fash on the day. Because of all the agro it ain't going to happen again. Perception by the police and local community of lots of trouble goes a long way to making em twitchy.

To be honest I think the BNP will find it hard to find a council who will grant them a licence next year.

We don't always have to use violence in direct action to get results. Although I don't object to use of violence, this type of tactic has given us a victory. Where as news reports about protestors battling with police don't do us any favours.

red and black

lets build & cooperate & bring something good to Denby next yr

22.08.2008 12:20

bashing fash is not a tactic in public or on large demos doesnt work anymore as most people know, notts & derby stop bnp did a great job well done. The blockaders were brave& were peacefully blockading before police attack, but should have done something peaceful without flashes or bangers away from media glare on sunday or friday,simple & sweet.

Neo black


22.08.2008 15:17

Here's a few figures for you. Forget political correctness, ask yourself if this is the country you REALLY want to live in.

The immigration invasion has hit record levels. In 2006/7, a record 605,000 people moved here with plans to stay for a year or more — the equivalent of 1,650 a day.

The number of foreigners living here has risen by 1.1 million in three years — enough to fill a city the size of Birmingham.

More than one person in 10 now living in the UK is foreign born.

Soaring numbers of births to non-white foreign born mothers are adding to the population explosion.

The rising birth rate has fuelled an increase in Britain’s population to nearly 61 million last year — an increase over 12 months of 388,000, equivalent to a city the size of Bournemouth.

The Office for National Statistics said that the fertility rate in the UK is now at 1.91 children per woman — the highest level since 1973 — with 758,000 babies born last year.

Births to foreign-born mothers rose to 160,340, or 23% of all live births, last year. More than half of all births in some towns and cities, including London (54%), Slough (56%) and Luton (51%), were to non-UK born mothers. This figure peaks at 75% in the London borough of Newham.

The Annual Population Survey shows the number of foreign-born residents stands at 6.3 million, more than a tenth of the total population, up from 5.2 million in 2004.

Other figures released yesterday show National Insurance numbers handed out to foreign workers increased by 4% last year to 733,000. The influx of east Europeans has led to a leap in the benefits bill.

A total of 888,000 Poles and Slovakians have come here to work since the expansion of the European Union in 2004. But 185,573 of them are in receipt of or in line for state handouts costing taxpayers more than £211 million a year. The bill includes child benefit and tax credits as well as job seekers’ allowance, income support and housing benefit.



22.08.2008 18:03

human beings have always migrated around the earth pretty much since we could first walk. realist, i bet your own ancestors were immigrants themselves at some point, shock horror! instead of defining people by their origin, ethnic, cultural or otherwise, just see that we are all human beings. its simple really. no borders, no nations!


Admirable but misguided

23.08.2008 10:11

As much as i detest the Big Nazi Planks with every fibre of my being i can't help but feel uncomfortable about a protest that is effectively aimed at curbing there freedom of speech and assembly, whereas had the protests aim been to opose the BNP as oposed to stopping there pestival i would have felt more comfortable we should of course be providing an oposing opinion whereever they are what we should never do is opose there right to freedom of speech and assembly which is effectively the aim of this protest.

Surely what is more important here and what has not been pointed out is that these idiots are unbeleivably a legitamate political party, so instead of trying to curb there freedom of speech and assembly which regardless of our beliefs is something we all deserve the right to. why are we not at parliament protesting there legitimacy as a political party.


Freedom of speech

Freedom of speech

23.08.2008 20:56

Surely what is more important here and what has not been pointed out is that these idiots are unbeleivably a legitamate political party, so instead of trying to curb there freedom of speech and assembly which regardless of our beliefs is something we all deserve the right to. why are we not at parliament protesting there legitimacy as a political party.


So what your saying is that we should not be trying to stop them meeting in derbyshire, that would contravine their freedom of speech and assembly, but we should be trying to get them out of parliament?

"why are we not at parliament protesting there legitimacy as a political party."

- er, coz us oiks are not aloud in parliament, or did you mean stand outside and protest... hang on, last time i checked we are not aloud to do that either!

Also on freedom of speech, are you saying that you defend the BNP's right to have freedom of speech, and assembly which they use to curb other peoples freedom of movement and speech, and to incite hatred, but you don't defend us when we try to curb the BNP?

the reality is somthing completely different to how you see it:

Tony Lecomber (BNP Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

another man with connections to the BNP:

Martin Paul Gilliard, 31, from Goole, was charged with possession of material for terrorist purposes and collection of information useful to a terrorist.

He was also charged with possession of live ammunition and preparation of terrorist acts.

Police cordoned off an area in Goole last week while they searched a property. They found potentially explosive material.

Mr Gilliard was arrested in Dundee on Saturday and is due to appear before City of Westminster magistrates on Thursday.

and of course the most notorious man to have been in the BNP:

In my view NO ONE has the right to spout rhetoric which incites people to kill and mame other people for racially motivated reasons, and should be denied a platform.

Fly Posters

to realist

24.08.2008 12:01

"A total of 888,000 Poles and Slovakians have come here to work since the expansion of the European Union in 2004. But 185,573 of them are in receipt of or in line for state handouts costing taxpayers more than £211 million a year. The bill includes child benefit and tax credits as well as job seekers’ allowance, income support and housing benefit."

You have to look at the bigger picture here, labour want to spend 26 billion on replacing trident, the war in Iraq and afganistan has cost us approx 1 billion a year. This is where our tax money is being eaten, pales comparison with your 211 million a year. Also you have to consider that many of the many of the ultra rich who operate companies in this country are dodging tax through tax havens to the tune of billions, such as Rupert Murdoch ( pais no tax on his personal fortune in this country, although lots of it is earned here). It's no coincidence that Murdoch's media empire devotes a lot of it's space to putting the blame on immigration, and benefit "scroungers"
diverting attention away from the real theft going on.

I welcome people from other countries here, it's not there fault at all.

fly posters

just to clarify

24.08.2008 12:50

This is the problem with the extreme left it is no different from the extreme right just different sides of the same coin both believe they have more right to freedom of speech than the other when the truth is we all have an equal right to freedom of speech and if more effort was put into exposing these people for what they are instead of trying to shut them up they would slowly become a defunct minority.

Education not Suppresion



25.08.2008 09:35

"This is the problem with the extreme left it is no different from the extreme right just different sides of the same coin both believe they have more right to freedom of speech than the other when the truth is we all have an equal right to freedom of speech and if more effort was put into exposing these people for what they are instead of trying to shut them up they would slowly become a defunct minority."

O.K the point is it is not just about freedom of speech here, it is action, the BNP don't meet up in a field in Derbyshire to exercise their freedom of speech, they meet up to plan and action out fascism. handing out a leaflet in an area that has some racial tension to incite futher racial tension is an action designed to exploit that, and mop up the votes, it is also done so as to make ethnic groups - often muslims where the BNP are concerned, the target of harrasment and attacks. preventing this happen is also an action.

Also, there are a lot of groups who spend a lot of time and energy exposing the BNP, don't know if you saw the BBC infiltration documentary of the BNP? yet the BNP continue to rise in popularity. I say you have a lack of understanding of fascism and how it spreads. I also say you need to have a look at the history of fascism, where it has successfully been stopped, and how (cable street would be a good starting point for this), and times when it is left unfettered and the results. Can you provide us with a historical case of where a fascist organisation has been made defunct just by people exposing them for who they are?

Below is a link to the events at cable street, which successfully stopped a fast growing fascist party in it's tracks.

Fly Posters


25.08.2008 10:07

It appears i may be blinded by naivety and idealism i apologise for that and can see i may have misunderstood the aims of this action.

Fly i thank you for your tolerance and explaining my faults instead of flaming me like so many others here would have done.

Heading to the library ;)


Some facts for Realist to consider - the CORPORATE welfare state costs FAR more

26.08.2008 21:24

Some facts for Realist to consider: The corporate welfare state costs us FAR more than folks on the dole or immigrants.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to "realists" like Realist that the corporations who churn out an anti-immigrant message on a daily basis would never dream of exposing their own state welfare fiddling? (Rupert Murdoch... he's a nice, honest chap! He doesn't dodge any taxes... much!)

But then it's always easiest to blame the poor and weak with no voice - especially when you're a massive corporation with a huge voice and almost infinite resources at your disposal to bang home the same message every day.

So anyway "Realist", don't let reality stand in the way of your hatred of those at the bottom. Just keep believing what those at the top tell you, eh?

Looking for who's really ripping us off? You need look no further than US investment bank Merrill Lynch, who have just declared their entire worldwide losses ($29 BILLION DOLLARS!) through their UK subsidiary.

They won't be paying any corporation taxes here for something like 60 YEARS now!

"...Merrill has a UK operating loss of about $29bn it can carry forward indefinitely for tax purposes. At the corporation tax rate of 28 per cent, that means the bank will be able to offset losses against future profits, lowering its UK tax bill by as much as $8bn."

EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS!?!?!?!?! That's about £4.5 billion pounds, swindled from the UK tax payer, while Merrill Lynch bank will still walk away with a profit.

Have a guess who is paying their corporate profits, Realist!? (Hint: YOU ARE!)

And it's not as if they're even providing jobs here. They just made a shitload of people redundant in London.


The real swindlers are the businesses. Infinitely powerful with infinitely mobile finances, who can afford to have teams of lawyers, accountants and strategists permanently in the task of finding new legal loopholes to exploit in countries all over the world, so that a few fat cats can walk away with masses of profit year on year.

Meanwhile, hateful idiots - whipped into a frenzy by those same powerful corporations - blame the poor and weak for moving here under some mistaken hope of finding a better life!?

Here's some more figures for you to contemplate, sourced from:

Go there to see even more to put your figures in perspective. These are just the first few:

Contrary to the impression given by newspapers, corporate fraud and defence spending cost us far more than dole cheats.

The annual cost of welfare in Britain is about £100 billion. The tabloid media blame this high cost on the "workshy", but most of it goes on pensions:

Annual cost (£ billions)
• Job Seekers Allowance: 2.3
• Housing benefit: 4.1
• Income Support: 6.5
• Child benefit: 8.8
• Benefits for disabled: 10.8
• Contribution-based pensions: 42.1

(Smaller costs include winter fuel payments for the elderly, at £1.7bn, etc. Source: Department for Work and Pensions, 2003)

When it comes to swindling, "dole cheats" aren't the biggest drain on the UK economy:

Estimated annual cost (£ billions):
• Business fraud: 14
• Government fraud in Whitehall: 5
• Tobacco smuggling: 3.5
• VAT fraud on mobile phones: 2.5
• Total welfare fraud: 2
• Jobseekers Allowance fraud: 0.19
• Bulldozer smuggling: 0.15

(Sources, respectively: Guardian, 12/4/02; BBC Radio 4, 'Today', 23/8/01; BBC Radio 4 News, 1996; Guardian 17/12/99; BBC Radio 4, 'Today', 3/7/03; DWP, 2003; The Informal Economy, by Lord Grabiner, March 2000; Guardian, 25/8/01)

"A billion here, a billion there – sooner or later it adds up to real money" (Everett Dirksen)

The biggest "welfare leeches" are corporations. British businesses receive billions in handouts from the Department for Trade and Industry – the DTI is basically a corporate dole office. One of its many grants – Regional Selective Assistance – pays companies millions to "safeguard jobs". Nearly 1 in 8 companies receiving this grant are paid more than once, which according to the National Audit Office contradicts the aim of "helping firms become self-sustaining". It sounds like welfare dependency.

Back to me for the final word.

Sure the "welfare state" is fucking us all - the CORPORATE WELFARE STATE.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest of us. They gamble, we pay - and we lose, ALWAYS.

In case you missed it above:

• Corporate tax fraud is costing us twice what contribution-based pensions are costing us each year.
• Corporate tax fraud is costing us 42.5 times what TOTAL benefit fraud is costing us.
• GOVERNMENT fraud in whitehall is costing us 2.5 times what TOTAL benefit fraud is costing us.

I don't see the BNP up in arms about the high cost of bulldozer smuggling!!

Please wake up and stop being taken in by the bullshit coming out of the corporate media and racist, fascist bastards like the BNP.

That is, if you actually care, and aren't just one of those nutters who think you have a right to bash anyone with a different skin colour to your own...

The cost of things

the cost of things

27.08.2008 08:23

very well put mate,
I am really intrigued by something you mention, I am not taking the piss but was seriously wondering how somone/a company smuggles bulldozers?
just had a funny image in my mind of someone wheeling one through the "nothing to declare route"


Bulldozer smuggling

27.08.2008 13:01

Smuggler: I haven't got a fecking clue how bulldozer smuggling is carried out!

I think it's simply on those lists of figures to illustrate the ridiculousness of twats like the BNP who are so up-in-arms about "dole cheats", when in actual fact, bulldozer smuggling (which is surely an activity with a somewhat "limited" market, probably mostly corporate anyway?) costs us almost as much.

The point is: the BNP leadership aren't interested in the truth, or in helping struggling taxpayers. They are interested in stirring up racial hatred by creating scapegoats, in order to obtain power for themselves. It works with some degree of success, because enough people are taken in by their deception, without taking a closer look to see what is really going on.

It's the same with all authoritarians - SWP included! Never trust anybody who stirs up your anger and then dangles a "solution" in front of you which involves handing over your own autonomy. It's all part of the same kind of game - getting into power, by whatever means available.

Back to the BNP. A tiny handful of uber-rich are taking us for a far bigger ride than the entirety of the folks living on benefits (both legitimately and "illegitimately").

It's just that it's so much easier to direct anger about our own failings downwards onto the poor and powerless - especially when that's what the rich and powerful are encouraging us to do on a constant basis, everywhere we look. Plenty of people are so used to seeing it they don't even notice any more.

It's not rocket science, but then again it's hardly surprising that people are taken in by it either. It's just the easiest option, and appeals to those with a "quick-fix" mentality.

Killing a few scapegoats never solved anything though, did it!?

Ironically, society's problems are so deep, that even if the fascists did end up getting what they claim to want, absolutely undoubtedly, most of them would end up with a far lower quality of life than they have now. But I'm not surprised they can't see that, because to see that, you actually have to LOOK in the first place.

Fascism starts with a great deception - of YOURSELF. Which is probably why it's such a difficult thing to crack, because who enjoys admitting that they've been completely deluded, and that the main culprit was themselves?

We've got a lot of work to do, that's for sure.

The cost of things

Police doing what police do

27.08.2008 16:19

Thanks to Fly Posters for Cable Street link - the similarities are astounding including the use of barricade tactics by anti-fascists and the bit about Communist party attempting to draw people away from direct action by organising a demo! And good to be reminded that it was an action like Antifa's that resulted in Public Order Act in the first place - showing that govt & police are directly committed to preventing meaningful anti-fascist activity.

So the state is the threat whether it's from self-identified fascists or so called democratic government & very hard to see difference in Italy at the moment with their attacks on Roma and 'immigrants'...

For another example of police brutality and blatant fabrication of 'evidence' in the face of opposition to state control, this time from Italian cops in Genoa anti-G8, see Indymedia & BBC news:

No platformist

Whose Anti fascist Action

31.08.2008 18:09

The Article above denegrates the tradition of militant antifascism. The writer denigrates the trade unionsts and local unions organising the "legal" demonstration as opposed to the true anti fascism of Antifa.

Now I was on the mainstream demo and I was exteremly pissed off at Weyman Bennet and UAF hroughout the day, They acted in an entirely sectarian way against the Local stop the BNP campaign that had organised the demo. Bennet had blatantly negotiated with the police that only 30 hand picked UAFers and Allies would go near the "Festival" for a photo shoot while the police stopped the rest of us. This sums up much of what is wrong with UAFs strategy of collaboration with the state and proposing state bans.

Whilst all this is true, the author of the article denigrates the entire mobilisation as being completely irrelevent as opposed to Antifa's millitantcy. However who is that militantcy for and of?

A truly working class anti fascist movement must be militant and unafraid of phsycal confrontation if necessary, but it must be a movement of the working class. In short it must be under the democratic control of the working class.

Antifa while undoubtedly brave and militant are at the end of the day a tiny self selected group without any real link to the labour movement. The article above stinks with "we are hard" posturing, not serious politics. The best militant antifascist campaigns have been those born out of the organisations of the working class and always under democratic control of the workers movement. In very different ways both Antifa and the UAF fail this test. UAF fail this test because it is a sectarian popular front obsessed with strangling at birth true any true prolertarian militantcy. Antifa fail this test because they act as a elitist, macho & isolated club acting entirely without accountability or a wider political strategy. We need a democratisation of the use of phsycal force in the anti fascist movement, and to do this we need to build a militant, grass-roots prolertarian anti fascist movement worthy of the name.

Revolution Dave

antifa's tactics on the day might have been better supporting main demo

01.09.2008 05:59

against BNP,police & UAF control. Antifas UK core is from working classes & connected to it. RE history BUF & Mosley lost support after they stomped on freedom of speech at Olympia rally_night of long knives in Germany this led to them losing Lord rothermere of Daily mail's support. After that their numbers were weakened & they were smashed.
We have got them beaten culturally & intellectually, so a debate with good speakers to take the piss out of them is a good idea as well as stopping them by force where necessary. Billy Connolly & Mark Thomas or Will whats his name the Gaurdian journalist versus Nick Griffin& Mark Collete who would win?,easy their only saviour possibly could be the genius wit of Roy Chubby Brown or Prince Philip they'd be fush wise flip shit up poo creek with only a straw for a paddle