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removed at the author's request | 14.08.2007 13:28 | Analysis | Palestine | Terror War | World

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Discussion about this post

18.11.2007 10:16

There has been, and still is at this time, a long discussion about this post. Information and links  https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkModerationDiscussion#Atzmon_article

imc'er


Comments

Hide the following 24 comments

Goliath always loses

14.10.2007 18:30

Balanced. Meaty. Useful. It is a feature of class society
that the ruling elite persists in its delusions about the
underdog, and hence becomes stupid and less reliable at
maintaining superiority. This happens to all classes and (in the case
of Israel) self-constituted racial elites.

Israel's implosion is now imminent - within a generation, since a colonial society
is incapable of cultural or political renewal. Can it be achieved without bloodshed?
No.

However the Palestinians can in their present disarray
take heart from such an analysis.

Paul Grenville ( paulgrenville@hotmail.com)

Paul Grenville
mail e-mail: paulgrenville@hotmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


Don't Publish Apologetics for Hitler and the 3rd Reich

17.10.2007 23:51

It seems Gilad Atzmon has excelled himself in this review. The anti-Semitism of what passes below is blatant and outrageous. Indeed even worse, it provides a justification for the barbarities of the Third Reich and German fascism. In particular:
i. ‘The tendency to personalise and concretise history is rather common amongst Jews.’ Really? I could have sworn that when Anthony Eden described Nasser as another Hitler, or when Bush did the same to Saddam Hussein or when Livingstone was pilloried by the Sun, for his support for Sinn Fein as ‘the most odious man in Britain’ or Scargill and Benn in their times were subject to similar attacks, that none of the above were Jewish. Maybe I’m wrong and Eden, Bush, the Sun editor etc. were all part of the world Jewish conspiracy theory. Or maybe Gilad Atzmon is simply sinking deeper into the mire of anti-Semitism and justification of fascism.
ii. But the really outrageous part of this review is the following:
‘Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the destruction that may be awaiting them in the future.’
iii. Israel, which terms itself a ‘Jewish’ State is indeed unpopular, and for much the same reasons that South Africa was unpopular when Apartheid was around and US imperialism is unpopular today. It is the actions of the Israeli state vs the Palestinians, the occupation that they impose, the racism and massacres that they perpetrate that cause this unpopularity. It has nothing to do with a ‘Judaic worldview’.
iv. Atzmon demonstrates that he is not only an unreformed anti-Semite and racist, but pig ignorant too. Jews were not exterminated in the Final Solution because of their unpopularity but because a fascist movement, with a core integrative ideology of anti-Semitism, saw the Jews as the source of Bolshevism and believed that the creation of lebensraum (‘living space’) was only possible with the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and from then on the Slav peoples. Indeed if Atzmon were to actually bother to do some reading around the Holocaust, as opposed to taking his version of history from the neo-Nazi nut Israel Shamir, he would understand that anti-Semitism was on the decline in Germany from 1918 onwards. It was only the economic and political crisis that ensued, coupled with the defeat of the German revolution that projected the Nazis to power. He would also understand that from 1930-33, the Nazis consciously played down their anti-Semitism in order to win power, hardly something that would have happened if the Jews of Germany had been so unpopular. Were he to read the most authoritative books on popular opinion in Germany re anti-Semitism, Ian Kershaw’s ‘The Hitler Myth’ and ‘Popular Dissent and Opinion in the 3rd Reich’ he would know that far from anti-Semitism being popular, it was regarded with distaste and more by the majority of Germans, most of whom had never voted for the NSDAP anyway. Most Germans reacted with revulsion to Kristalnacht, including a majority even of the Nazi Party itself.
v. For Atzmon ‘the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place’ are that Jews should stop being unpopular. In other words the Jews and gays and other victims of Nazism were responsible for what happened to them. In this Atzmon demonstrates once again that far from being an anti-Zionist, he is merely the other, anti-Semitic, side of the coin of Zionism. Because his thesis exactly echoes that of the appalling Zionist author, Daniel Goldhagen, for whom all Germans were ‘Hitler’s Willing Executioners’, a book described as ‘worthless’ by the late Raul Hilberg. Atzmon merely gives a different twist to this same thesis.
vi. There are many anti-Semitic sites which would no doubt feel themselves privileged to publish this kind of racist trash. I sincerely hope that Indy Media, when it realises what has been posted, will quickly take down this apologetic for the Hitlerites.

Tony Greenstein

Tony Greenstein
mail e-mail: tonygreenstein@yahoo.com


Tony vs Gilad - a long running battle

18.10.2007 07:55

Its been going on a while now, no?

 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/06/gilad-atzmon-tony-greenstein-debate.html

Having failed to get Gilad thrown out of the PSC, you're trying to get him banned from here.

Its not new:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/03/364493.html?c=on#comments

and personally I don't think calling him anti-semitic is clever either.

¡No pasarán!


Don't Publish Apologetics for Hitler and the 3rd Reich

19.10.2007 17:40

I also don't think it's clever to adopt the slogan of anti-fascists in the 1930's to whitewash someone who is intent on defending fascism in that period.

If the anonymous 'no pasaran' had bothered to check the motion at PSC was aimed at Deir Yassin Remembered, led by people some of whom (Eisen, Shamir) are open holocaust deniers. The meaning of the passage below is quite clear:

'Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place.'

The reason for the extermination of much of European Jewry in the 1930's was because the Jews were unpopular. If this is not a justification of what happened then words lose all meanings. Leaving aside there is no comparison between the Israeli state, backed to the hilt by the USA, and European Jews in the 1930's, although it repeats the Zionist canard that the Israeli State is a continuation of the Jewish communities in Europe and elsewhere, the logic being that an attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews and therefore anti-Semitic.

Or maybe Atzmon's belief that the lack of success of the Palestine solidarity movement is due to the Jews is also not anti-Semitic and racist? Clearly there are some people who believe that racism can only be fought with racism.

Tony Greenstein
mail e-mail: tonygreenstein@yahoo.com


Should those in Glass Houses Throw Stones, Mr. Greenstein?

21.10.2007 18:28

Here we have Tony Greenstein once again attempting to renew his long-standing personal vendetta against the legendary jazz musician and lightworker, Gilad Atzmon.

The problem for many of us however, regarding Mr Greenstein's credibility is that he has a criminal record for stealing someone else's credit card, and using it to make various purchases of "toys". He also has a record of physical and voilent assaults on Jews.

Shall I provide the links for these escapades, or will you, Tony?

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


An amendment of Atzmon's text especially for Greenstein....

22.10.2007 02:41

An amendment of Atzmon's text....

"the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Ethnic Jewish Campaigners and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place."
knuckles | 10.22.07 - 3:43 am | #

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


Tony's popularity at the PSC AGM

22.10.2007 03:36

Tony, why don't you tell the readers about your disastrous mission with Rance to Scotland earlier this year, to the PSC AGM, and how the carpet got pulled out from under you by Atzmon. This really is a very PERSONAL vendetta for you, isn't it? By the way, in the 1930's there was no "Gay" identity. There were homosexuals, of course, not 'popular', and there was a despised Jewish identity, also rather ... er....'unpopular', just as you turned out to be at the PSC AGM :) not so?


knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


The Israeli Army

22.10.2007 14:18

Assuming Limor and Shelah are correct, it sounds to me like the Israeli army should spend a lot more money on their armed forces. They should make sure they have a decent army to stop the terrorism.

For real man.

George

George Jackson
mail e-mail: Geoge@soledadbrother.com


Gilad Atzmon - an open comment to JSF

22.10.2007 23:04

Gilad Atzmon’s open comment to JSF

 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/10/gilad-atzmon-open-comment-to-jsf.html

editor’s note: on the Jews Sans Frontieres blog, they have finally discovered an article that has been widely circulated on internet for many months now, on Peacepalestine, Tlaxcala (in 5 languages), Dissident Voice, Information Clearing House, Indymedia, Palestine Chronicle, Redress, Al Jazeera Magazine, ISM, Amin, and dozens of blogs and other sites in many languages. The discovery of this article has lead to a feeble attempt at labeling Gilad Atzmon – for the sake of variety – as a dangerous or mad anti-Semite. This is Gilad’s response to the post and the comments:

What a bunch of silly tribal Jewish ethnic activists you are,

My views are circulated all over the net, my books are translated into 22-24 (I lost count) languages not because I am a saxophonist, but simply because I have something to say that other people want to read. That is the way it works…I really think that maybe you’d better learn to accept it once and for all.

As you know perfectly well, my writings are circulated in the most interesting left circles. There must be some reason for it. I think it probably could be because I am one of the first to expose the ugly notion of Jewish political tribalism. I exposed and defined the notion of the 3rd Category Jew, i.e., Rosen, Elf, Greenstein as well as Sharon and Wolfowitz.

I clearly identify a line of ugliness that is stretched between Zionism, Neocons, and the Bund, a line of racially orientated discourse that is stretched between Jaz (a group that calls itself Jews Against Zionism) and ADL (a group that claims its aim is to “stop defamation of the Jewish people to assure justice and fair treatment for all”). Both of them are radical groups, radically oriented towards putting Jewish identity first. And what is Jewish identity? To those who have read my articles, it is more than obvious that I believe it has nothing to do with racial category (which I’ve never even dealt with in my writing) but rather with racially-orientated politics. That is the tendency which I obviously disapprove of, and over the years I’ve expressed the reasons why.

For my readers and myself, it is absolutely clear that every form of Jewish secular politics (no matter where they find themselves located, Left, Right or Centre) is based on racial orientation. This is quite simply and clearly NOT universal and wrong to the bone.

However, in the paragraph that Elf and others are attempting to dissect, there is not a single justification of the Nazi Judeocide. I am suggesting that the only way to internalise the meaning of the Jewish Holocaust is to teach Jews how to start looking in the mirror, to teach Jews to ask themselves why conflicts with others happen to them time after time. Rather than blaming the Goyim, the Germans, the Muslims, the Arabs, it is about time the Jewish subject learns to ask the 6 million $ question: “why do they pick on me?” The Jews who already doing that are known as self-haters, yet they are a million moons ahead of the Jewish tribal discourse. They clearly see the conflict between universalism and Jewish tribalism. And you had better start to believe it, the chasm is massive.

It is indeed easier to build some strange narrative in which 5 or 9 London Diaspora Jews are wonderful and the Israelis are a bunch of murderers. Yet, reality is slightly more complicated. As we can see in London for instance, all Jewish activism is totally racially segregated and JSF is a good example that demonstrates it. It isn’t any better than the Zionist cyber grouping either in style or in substance.

Unlike Elf, Rosen and Greenstein who believe that they are quite a lot better than other Jews just because they use a slightly different recipe for their Gefilte fish, I believe in a severe form of critical self-reflection. I insist upon finding the evil within. As you know, I am a proud self-hater, very much like Spinoza, Weininger and Jesus, yet far less gifted.

Unlike you righteous Jews, I would always start with myself, but somehow you are all intelligent enough to realise that my self-reflection exposes your Judeo-centric politics as a severe form of moronic self-loving.

Last night we were headlining a massive concert for Palestine in Nottingham, the place was completely sold out, 2 weeks ago we did the same for MAP at the 606 in London. Again it sold out 2 weeks in advance. We are now becoming a household name and you seem to become nothing more than a bunch of racially-orientated assholes.

I wish you luck. Don’t ever stop celebrating your revolting symptoms in public. Please don’t stop fighting me, you are the best glimpse into Jewish self-loving and Zionism in particular.

ATB
Gilad Atzmon

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com


Deconstructing Tony's 'argument'

23.10.2007 12:31

It's amazing that Greenstein, a delinquent with a criminal record, has the chutzpah to continue throwing stones at others.....however, here are some comments on his piece:

Tony: 'The tendency to personalise and concretise history is rather common amongst Jews.' Really? I could have sworn that when Anthony Eden described Nasser as another Hitler, or when Bush did the same to Saddam Hussein or when Livingstone was pilloried by the Sun...

knuckles: Greenstein, concentrate. "Common amongst Jews" doesn't mean "solely amongst Jews". Atzmon was pointing out a Jewish political trend that may also be apparent in some other degraded political cultures.

Tony: But the really outrageous part of this review is the following:
'Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the destruction that may be awaiting them in the future.'

knuckles: Greenstein, concentrate. You forgot to say what is so outrageous.

Tony: Israel, which terms itself a 'Jewish' State is indeed unpopular, and for much the same reasons that South Africa was unpopular when Apartheid was around and US imperialism is unpopular today. It is the actions of the Israeli state vs the Palestinians, the occupation that they impose, the racism and massacres that they perpetrate that cause this unpopularity. It has nothing to do with a 'Judaic worldview'.

knuckles: Greenstein, concentrate! Please explain to the indy readers why it is that Israel's unpopularity with its neighbour is categorically different than it was for the Jews in the 1930s, and even before that. Greenstein, have you realised that Azmon differntiates between
'Jewish' and 'Judaic'? He admires the 'Judaic' (Torah Jews), and it is the 'Jewish' (Greenstein, Wolfowitz, Sharon etc.) which he ctiticises.

Tony: Atzmon demonstrates that he is not only an unreformed anti-Semite and racist, but pig ignorant too. Jews were not exterminated in the Final Solution because of their unpopularity but because a fascist movement, with a core integrative ideology of anti-Semitism, saw the Jews as the source of Bolshevism and believed that the creation of lebensraum ('living space') was only possible with the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and from then on the Slav peoples. Indeed if Atzmon were to actually bother to do some reading around the Holocaust, as opposed to taking his version of history from the neo-Nazi nut Israel Shamir, he would understand that anti-Semitism was on the decline in Germany from 1918 onwards. It was only the economic and political crisis that ensued, coupled with the defeat of the German revolution that projected the Nazis to power. He would also understand that from 1930-33, the Nazis consciously played down their anti-Semitism in order to win power, hardly something that would have happened if the Jews of Germany had been so unpopular. Were he to read the most authoritative books on popular opinion in Germany re anti-Semitism, Ian Kershaw's 'The Hitler Myth' and 'Popular Dissent and Opinion in the 3rd Reich' he would know that far from anti-Semitism being popular, it was regarded with distaste and more by the majority of Germans, most of whom had never voted for the NSDAP anyway. Most Germans reacted with revulsion to Kristalnacht, including a majority even of the Nazi Party itself.

knuckles: Perhaps Greenstein would be better off learning history from proper historians from the amateur archivist, Lenni Brenner, who no doubt is good at collecting documents, but who also excels at failing to understand them. How are Greenstein and Brenner measuring the decrease in anti-semitism after 1918? Was this fall a general German feeling or a sectorial issue? Please present a basic social argument here, Tony! If Greenstein was familiar with the history of European Judeocide he would probably know that the role of the German people in the act itself was relatively minor. The people who prepared the transport and conducted the killing were local clerks and ordinary murderers. According to Arendt and others, Judocide could not have happened unless local Jewish leader themselves were collaborating with Nazis all the way through the war. However, maybe Greenstein can tell us whether or not Jews were involved with Bolshevism....or was it just a Nazi fantasy? If Greenstein doesn't know the answer, perhaps he will find the time to read the invaluable "Jewish Century" by the Harvard Prof Yuri Slezkine.

Tony: For Atzmon 'the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place' are that Jews should stop being unpopular. In other words the Jews and gays and other victims of Nazism were responsible for what happened to them. In this Atzmon demonstrates once again that far from being an anti-Zionist, he is merely the other, anti-Semitic, side of the coin of Zionism. Because his thesis exactly echoes that of the appalling Zionist author, Daniel Goldhagen, for whom all Germans were 'Hitler's Willing Executioners', a book described as 'worthless' by the late Raul Hilberg. Atzmon merely gives a different twist to this same thesis.

knuckles: How exactly, Tony? By suggesting that Jews look into their endless tale of destruction and try to understand what is it about them that doesn't agree with the world? Atzmon suggests that this is the only way to save the Jews and stop others from wanting to harm them. More to the point, Tony, why not implement this practice yourself, as you seem to be one of the most unpopular people the British left has ever seen. Is it because you makes a lot of noise and say so little? Is it because the ratio between your loudness and your stupidity is infinite, or is it because we do not want a petty criminal to teach us ethics? Who knows...it is up to you to ask yourself these questions, and the sooner the better!

Tony: There are many anti-Semitic sites which would no doubt feel themselves privileged to publish this kind of racist trash. I sincerely hope that Indy Media, when it realises what has been posted, will quickly take down this apologetic for the Hitlerites.

knuckles: There are many anti-Semitic sites that may be able to help people like Greenstein understand why they are making themselves into a joke... but so far I have never seen a single respected site publishing Greenstein, while Atzmon's writing is everywhere, and translated into something like 24 languages.

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com


Playing for the Palestinians

24.10.2007 07:38

One question - while the Greensteins, Elfs, Rances, Maccobys, Rosens, David ts and Lenins of this world are sitting on their fat asses longing for the days when the Jewish Identity will become more "popular", and screaming for the crucifixion of anyone who offers an alternative reality, where is Atzmon and what is he doing?

 http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13323

Playing for the Palestinians
Over 250 people attended a concert with saxophonist Gilad Atzmon’s ensemble in Nottingham last Sunday in support of twinning with the Palestinian city of Jenin.

The show also featured Adel Salameh, a fantastic Palestinian oud player. The concert went down a storm.

Gilad waived all his fees and donated all profits from his CDs sold on the night to help provide the funds for the twinning links, which are being used to support facilities in the main hospital in Jenin.

The concert was supported by the East Midlands region of the Unison union. A UCU union executive member from Nottingham has just travelled to Palestine to help develop links.

Richard Buckwell

Matthew
mail e-mail: matthew@gmail.com


Knuckles Atzmon

24.10.2007 23:01

How interesting. Gilad Atzmon is now masquerading under the name 'Knuckles'. This is from someone who deplores violence no less! I suppose it makes a change from Yocheved!

Interesting that a man of such high 'ethics' has to adopt so many names. Just why the need for these disguises?

Tony Greenstein
mail e-mail: tonygreenstein@yahoo.com


knuckles is not atzmon

03.11.2007 10:32

It has come to my attention that Tony Greenslime has been working overtime to try and get Gilad's article banned on Indymedia, on the basis of comments made by me, whom Greesey is accusing of being Gilad.

Just for the record, I am not Gilad Atzmon. My IP address is located in South America, while Gilad is in the UK. The Indy web admin can easily check this.

For more info about the gatekeeping activities of this credit card fraudster Greenslime, go to Censorship and “Hiding” Texts: Big and Little Gatekeepers of the World UNITE! at  http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


Tovy Greencard and the emperor's new clothes

08.11.2007 00:41

 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/11/moishales-new-suit.html

Moisha’le’s New Suit
by Hans Christian Underdog

NOT THAT MANY years ago, at the hub of the Kosher Palestinian solidarity cyber ghetto lived a Marxist emperor named Moisha’le, who thought so much of new clothes for the progressive cosmopolitan chosen people that he spent all his time in trying to obtain them; his only ambition was to make his very people look as important and righteous as he mistakenly believed himself to be. But in fact, he did not truly care for his two and a half obedient Gefilte soldiers, and the Palestinian reality did not bother him either........

Matthew
mail e-mail: matthew@gmail.com


Gilad Atzmon's letter to Indymedia UK (as yet not online)

13.11.2007 10:04

Posted by knuckles, from the link
 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/11/whats-it-all-about-indy.html

GILAD ATZMON'S LETTER TO INDYMEDIA UK (AS YET NOT ONLINE)

Dear Indymedia list members

I think that you are now having a close range opportunity to learn about the world of aggressive Zionist lobbying. You are a subject to some major assault led by ethnic campaigner Mr. Tony Greenstein. I understand those amongst you who feel as if their private lives had been torn apart. I am totally familiar with this man’s lack of manners and lack of respect for others’ privacy. I know all about it. The man has been stalking others and me for years. As a rule, I would suggest to you that if you decide to address Greenstein’s ranting seriously, you better follow the links he kindly provides and read the original quotes within their context. As far as my writings are concerned, I always do my best to differentiate between people and ideology. I do harshly criticise Jewishness, yet I avoid any form of criticism of Jewish people or of Judaism.

As you are probably aware of by now, Greenstein and his ilk have been trying to cleanse me from the Palestinian Solidarity discourse for three years. So far all they managed to do is to marginalise themselves probably beyond repair. The reason is simple. Although they insist upon suggesting that I am a “racist”, in the entirety of my work there is not a single reference whatsoever to race. I oppose any form of racial categorisation and I restrict myself to politics, ideology and identity. Indeed, I do oppose any form of secular Jewish politics and Jewish ideology in general. It may be important to mention that unlike Greenstein, who was banned from several institutes for accusations of anti -Semitism as well as violence against Jews, I have never been banned from anywhere nor have I ever criticised Jews as people or a race! As you may realize, Jews do not form a race, yet Jewish identity is somehow racially orientated.

In my writings I am highly critical of Jewish politics (Left, Centre and Right) just because I am against any form of Jewish politics because it insists that it is racially orientated. I wonder whether you realise the devastating fact that the gentiles amongst your Indy media moderators cannot join Greenstein’s ‘Jews Against Zionism’ (JAZ) because you are not ‘racially or ethnically qualified’. As well, you are not welcome at ‘Jews For Palestine’ or any other exclusive “Jewish Progressive” political group just because you fail to be listed amongst the ‘chosens’. If you find the time and energy to do it, just ask Greenstein how many Goyim or Palestinian members he has on his JAZ list… So as it seems, a bunch of five subjects who operate solely in a racially segregated political cell are calling me a racist. I honestly cannot make up my mind whether this is funny or sad. I would say both.

However, I indeed believe that Zionism and Israel are just part of the problem in Palestine. I do believe that if Israel would be left alone to face its very many enemies in the region it would be very, very quick to change its spot and become a peace-seeking nation. However this is not going to happen because some very powerful lobbies around the world support Israel. It would be fair to say that Israel’s regional power is the outcome of its support by the majority of institutionalised Jewish political bodies. Hence, if we genuinely want to address the Palestinian suffering we must scrutinise that which makes Israel so powerful. We must learn in detail the amalgam of Zionist pressure groups. But then what a miracle, once we try to do that, a group of so-called ‘progressive Jews’ insists upon silencing the topic. I think that by now you know a bit about the subject. You know how this mechanism works: a tiny group of irrelevant ethnic campaigners, people who didn’t contribute a single intellectual text to the Palestinian discourse for decades have managed to put pressure on you. They are trying to split you, to make you do things against your beliefs; this is very depressing to see; yet this is how the Jewish political world operates. Being myself an ex Jew, I am rather embarrassed to admit it.

I will try to open your eyes with a very simple analysis of the Jewish political identity. Let us assume that X is a Jewish political entity. X obviously feels free to act politically under a Jewish banner e.g. Jews for peace, Jews against Zionism, Jews for Zionism etc’. Yet, X would refuse to be criticised as a Jew. In other words, X assumes a lucid identity with a meaningful content yet he doesn’t allow anyone else to criticise this very identity. Isn’t it bizarre?

Dear list members, if you didn’t get it yet, I may make it very simple for you. This is the real meaning of Jewish ‘chosenness’; this is the essence of Jewish racial supremacy. It lets the political Jew believe that he is indeed better and far beyond criticism: Greenstein and his clan are operating as Jews, assuming that there is something in their Jewishness that allows them a special exclusive entitlement e.g. Jews against Zionism or Jews for Peace. This is obviously fine, yet once you criticise them as being an exclusive racially orientated setting they outrageously accuse you of being racist. In Short: Greenstein entitles himself to act as a Jewish political activist but he insists as well upon banning anyone else, whether a gentile or even me (an ex Jew) to question what his Jewishness may stand for.

Questions concerning Judaic Worldview

I was rather surprised to learn that Greenstein, once a religiously educated boy, fails to know what the Judaic worldview is all about. Seemingly, I will have to remind him as well as enlighten you about the subject. In the ‘Judaic worldview’ there is no room for grey areas. Instead there is a clear black and white division between: RIGHT and WRONG, KOSHER and TAREF. God and false idols. In the Judaic worldview clear binary oppositions are set to differentiate between Good and Bad: One God/many idols; Truth/false; West/ the rest; Left/fascists; Us/the others. Within the Judaic worldview it is always us who are right and they who are wrong. As I mention in my paper, the Judaic worldview is an ideology, it is a mindset. Many Jews do not succumb to this ideology, thank God for that. It is rather concerning to find out how many non-Jews succumb to this ideology. For those amongst you who fail to see, it is this very element of self-centred righteousness that made Neo-conservatism into such a threatening movement.

Along the years very many Jewish intellectuals and humanists stood against the Judaic Worldview and the 3 first names that come to mind are obviously: Jesus, Spinoza and Marx. Astonishingly enough, Greenstein and his ilk are nothing but orthodox followers of the most extreme manifestation of Judaic Worldview in its ugliest form. As you can read, Tony Greenstein ‘knows what Racism is’ if you do not agree with him, you are nothing but a racist and a fascist. As his ideological twin Roland Rance wrote in an offlist email to FTP, if you are not with us, you are not in the ‘left’ - as if five British racially orientated political activists know better than you what left is all about.

As we all know, the extreme form of this very binary opposition leads towards crucifixion. As sad as it may sound, the group of people who assault you at the moment are doing nothing but nailing intellectuals and Palestinian solidarity institutions to the wood. They did it to Jeff Blankfort, one of the prominent American Palestinian Solidarity activists, they do the same to Mary Rizzo, probably one of the most adorable activists in Italy, they did it to Paul Eisen and Israel Shamir, these people have managed to crush DYR, probably the most successful Palestinian gathering in this country. These people had tried to divert the Palestinian solidarity movement and to turn it into a Judeo centric witch-hunt crusade. They believe that fighting anti-Semitism is a Palestinian priority.

I myself believe that 70% starvation in Gaza is the real issue to address. If this turns me into a Holocaust denier I can easily live with it. A few months ago this bunch of people were spat out humiliatingly at the PSC AGM ( http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/03/report-on-2-failed-motions-by.html). The Palestinian solidarity movement around the world is a dynamic fueled by genuine empathic feelings. It changes and shapes by events. It is now concerned more and more with the tragedy that is taking place in front of our eyes rather than the Jewish Holocaust, which occurred more than 60 years ago. I do realise that the Greensteins of this world are devastated by it. It seems as if their racially exclusive political identity is losing its validity.

Blaming The Jews

“You useless piece of shit. And you complain of bullying tactics whilst betraying a woeful ignorance of racism. What a wanker you are, whoever you are.”

(Mark Elf Jews Sans Frontieres, on an offlist email to Indy media Moderator FTP)

The above leads us to the Holocaust and questions concerning its real meaning. What is its real meaning? Is there just a single meaning? Within the Zionist worldview in which Greenstein, Machover, Rance and Elf apparently succumb to, ‘European Jewry were a bunch of wonderful innocent subjects who fell victims to a vicious regime who picked on them out of the blue’. In fact I do not aim to interfere with such an interpretation. Instead I suggest that every historical event (Nazi Judeocide included) may entail far more than just a single interpretation and meaning.

I, for instance, would expect Jews to learn a lesson from their destruction. I would expect Jews to ask themselves how come people employ so many vicious tactics against us, why is it that people hate us so much? As sad as it may sound, the abuse performed by Israel in Palestine is no different categorically to the abuse performed by Mr Mark Elf, against FTP. Indeed FTP survived it while a Palestine kid is probably far less lucky, yet it is the ultimate negligence of the Other that strikes me. I may admit that I’ve been living in the UK for 14 years, and it is only the Jewish cyber cells (which I monitor regularly) where I find the ultimate possible violent verbal expression.

As I learn from reading your thread, Greenstein has being assaulting each of you for the last days interfering with your privacy. May I suggest that is this very vicious campaigning and total intolerance that makes Zionist lobbies so hated and this applies to Zionists as well crypto Zionists such as JAZ (who aim at silencing any criticism of the Jewish Lobby in America). For me, every Historical chapter is a message in a bottle. We have to open and re open the bottle, we have to let the historical chapters reshape themselves and we have to let ourselves be reshaped by them. History is meaningful as long as it reflects on our present and future. If Greenstein would exhaust his limited intellectual capacity and read the entire paragraph (that he wants so much to hide) he may have learn something:

“Clearly, the Zionist interpretation is engaged with nothing more than the concrete symptom, with the simplest manifestation of the animosity that surrounds it rather than with the core of the problem itself. Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place…” (Gilad Atzmon The Hunters of Goliath)

And here is the lesson: Would Tony Greenstein understand the real meaning of the Holocaust, he and his 5 Racially exclusive comrades would prevent themselves from the humiliation that occurred to them a few months ago at the PSC AGM.

“Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded Greenstein & Co from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their growing unpopularity.”

Would mark Elf understand the meaning of the Holocaust he would stop himself from calling an innocent Indy media moderator he doesn’t agree with a “Wanker” and a “Fuckwit”. Sorry for mentioning it, I just can’t get over it. The meaning of the Holocaust is preventing the Holocaust in Palestine and Iraq. The Meaning of the Holocaust is preventing the already planned Holocaust in Iran. Yet the AJC (American Jewish Committee) and the Israeli Lobby are promoting a war against Iran and it is the Greensteins of this world who try to prevent us from dealing with the issue. This says it all. Some racially orientated Jews who for some reason call themselves ‘progressive’ indeed learned nothing.

It is never too late
Inshallah they get it right soon.
All the best

Gilad Atzmon

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


What's it all about, Indy?

13.11.2007 10:33

I highly recommend that indy moderators and readers read Gilad Atmon's and Mary Rizzo's very coherent, clear and ethical response to the accusations being levelled at them by Tony Greenstein and his small bunch of trtibal racketeers and mobsters:

Posted by knuckles from this link:
 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/11/whats-it-all-about-indy.html

What's it all about, Indy?

Is it just for the moment we live?
What's it all about when you sort it out, Indy?
Are we meant to take more than we give?
Or are we meant to be kind?
And if only fools are kind, Indy,
Then I guess it's wise to be cruel.
And if life belongs only to the strong, Indy,
What will you lend on an old golden rule?

Yup, I suppose some thought I would be able to finally post about events in Palestine. I even thought I would finish my study on racism issues in Italy and how it all relates to maintaining an established order of things so that power remains in the hands of the few and everyone feels insecure. I even had some other things on the back burner, Palestinian poetry and an analytical piece. Nope, it seems that those who would censor and determine the agenda for all "solidarity campaigning" have been working fulltime. As they say, the Devil never sleeps. That means that those who are committed to Palestinians, but are being vilified by this motley crew either have to allow their names to be slurred and their ideas to be buried, or they are in some way compelled to react. So, react we must.

Indymedia's discussion list has been the latest setting of a long series of ritual hangings of Gilad Atzmon, of Peacepalestine, of DYR, of the SWP, of any person, venue or container that does not cave into the pressure of a small and noisy lobby. As pointed out in previous posts on this blog, Tony Greenstein has instigated his pathological pressure (throwing the kitchen sink in there as well, with references to David Duke, the KKK, NeoNazis.... anything he can pull out of his magic hat, as if Gilad or I have EVER had any affiliation or shown any support for these entities, knowing FULL well that is is libellous bullshit, but hell, he'll try anything to get his way, hoping no one will EVER investigate) on the Indymedia list. While he as yet has not been able to have the post he and Moshe Machover have decided must be pulled taken down, despite trying to somehow influence people by the presence of "absolute solid Jewish Anti-Zionists" like Lenni Brenner, he's busy as a bee in trying to involve even other boards in the IM network. It also is sad to see the attempts at some sort of name dropping, and the fautly orchestration of it all that somehow rather than strengthening his case, makes him look more desperate.

I'd like to point out a blog that captures the highlights of the proceedings: Saying NO to the hunters of Atzmon by Ftp, one of the Indy moderators who is bravely dealing with this madness, obviously, not used to it quite yet. This is the first post, of which quite a few follow. This first post of that blog is probably the best place to start in order to follow the situation.

In addition to that, I would like to present the letter Gilad Atzmon posted to Indy, which has decided to moderate right now all the discussion on the issue, and by freezing it, is not allowing the response that someone who is being attacked at least should be granted out of courtesy. I can't determine how they run their board, but it does seem a bit odd to me that the protagonist of the dispute is not being given his chance to discuss. It's not the most regular of ways to run things. Following that, is a link to the Nov archives where some of the discussion continues, and in the end, one of my posts to their board which was sent after their freeze imposition, which asks them to investigate this Tony Greenstein and to wonder if this is the kind of person who should be telling Palestinians what is good for them. In my view, he is certainly the last person I would want "in a solidarity campaign". In coming days, some other "campaigners" will be exposed by their own words. Nothing needs to be invented. We have the truth on our side, we have their own words. They have lies and slander, and the distortion of our words and a disinformation campaign that seems to be closer to the ADL than to the PLO. May the truth prevail.

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com


MARY RIZZO'S POST TO INDYMEDIA (AS YET NOT ONLINE)

13.11.2007 10:52

posted by knuckles from the link at:

 http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/11/whats-it-all-about-indy.html

INDYMEDIA ARCHIVES
 http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/date.html

MARY RIZZO'S POST TO INDYMEDIA (AS YET NOT ONLINE)

Tony Greenstein says: "And just one final point. I’m not going to reply to the ramblings of Mary Rizzo, though I would certainly stand by my opposition to suicide bombings in Israel, even if that means criticising Hamas."

I say. Of course he isn't going to respond, because he'd have to come out being the most inconsistent being on the planet and it's pretty difficult for him to defend what he said and come out looking respectable. The fact that Tony has written that he does not respect, nor should he, the Palestinians, that he gives a toss about their vote, that Fatah "at least" was secular, (therefore, they would have been better, a choice that -ahem- only the electorate is able to determine), that the victory of Hamas should be equated with the victory of Hitler in Germany.... it's pretty amazing, and I would love to see him say this on a board or site run by Palestinians. Secular or not, they would run him out of the room. This is why he confines his activities to the Jewish or UK cyber spheres. Not only is it outrageous and completely insulting to a people that is FAR more politicised than Tony himself will ever be, and would know better than he would what suits them, it is a-historical and wrong.

That he was endorsing violating a cultural boycott he was even promoting, that he most certainly knows what is good for Palestinians, and what is good, obviously, is what will be accepted by a faction he identifies himself with in Israel. As if the Palestinians are puppets who must earn respect, respect which has a set of conditions around it. That he does not campaign for the Right of Return (I can't remember him ever calling for it) makes one wonder if he understands the Palestinians' situation and aspirations at all. All of this alone should be reason enough that those of us actively involved in Pro-Palestinian actions and campaigns have to keep him well beyond arms' length. He is precisely the WORST sort of person to be dictating what should be happening in "the world of solidarity". Most activists have gotten wise to him, and this is a relief, but his litany, repeated ad nauseam just like the Queen of Hearts "Off with their heads!!" makes him a character that is almost as laughable as he is disgusting. Both sensations compete for predominance. When one is, like I have been for ages, subject to his abuse, one simply gets used to it, but has to remind oneself that not everyone else is prepared for the disgusting rain of verbal abuse and plain uppityness that he unleashes. Other people have to be warned about what he is.

Again, referring to this single phrase of Tony, no one is promoting terrorism or suicide bombings, and Tony instrumentally links Hamas with suicide bombings. If he knew any STATISTICS, he'd see that they are not directly implicated in them! That they have also distanced themselves from them, and that it was indeed the Hamas that had held the truce longer than any other political party, including the Israelis. His disinformation is straight out of the annals of the neocons, if not straight into the laps of the theories of the Islamophobes. What's Tony's Agenda? To isolate the Gazans and Palestinians even more from a resolution to their problem? Is this the way he's going to spread socialism to the Arabs who he doesn't respect for their political illiteracy, when they are not outright religiously oriented.

They should have caved in long ago, according to Tony, and voted for a party that has NO consensus and no nationalist vision, because the value of their socialism was intrinsic and "of course" the Westerners in the far left parties of Europe would have defended them. What a load of steaming crap.

If all of his intolerance of Palestinians and lack of respect for them weren't enough, he denies there is a lobby, he attempts to shut up anyone who dare mention this FACT, he smears and distorts in order to push his own very grey agenda of some kind of socialism that is not relevant to Palestinians. Why doesn't he spend his time better, trying to improve the Israeli society? That would be at least a target he could reach. I'd let him go any way he wanted with his harebrained schemes if that was his campaign. Our paths would never cross either. I don't bother with Israeli progressives. The best ones are those like Dorothy Naor who when I asked about the boycott said, "boycott me, please". They aren't looking for internal consensus among the "progressive Israelis". They have realised that the victims are our priority and the victims are the Palestinians. Whatever it takes to support them, that is what we have to stand for.

Indymedia moderators caving in to someone like that would be quite a pity, because it would have resonance in internet, where the Palestinians are at some level respected and supported with passion and dedication. It would put Indymedia on "the other side" of the Palestinians. And, obviously, he wonders why his letters aren't given major space. It is so self-evident, that it's not even worth questioning why. Why is Tony never published anywhere? Because his stuff is unreadable, contradictory and venomous. It is only print-worthy in minor jewish leftist things like Socialist Unity, or CIF, where the Zionists seem to dictate what goes up. I think Tony is the only one that is oblivious to this.
mary

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://none


Saying NO to the JAZ hyenas

15.11.2007 09:59

Posted by knuckles.....

Saying NO to the hunters of Atzmon

An introduction by Gilad Atzmon:
The following is another shocking glimpse into the activity of the Zionist ADL within the Palestinian solidarity movement. This article was written by FTP who acts as the administrator of IM UK. After two weeks of non-stop harassment FTP said enough is enough. He started a web page with the full catalogue of tactics employed against him and his colleagues at the IM UK. He probably believed that it is his duty to inform others. He thought that it is important to make sure that the next time Moshe Machover or Tony Greenstein call you a “racist” or a “fascist” you realise that you are actually in very good company. FTP put it up just to make sure that the next time Mark Elf (Jews Sans Frontieres) calls you a “wanker” or a “fuckwit” that you shouldn’t be intimidated, just keep up with the good work. We are facing a cell of 5 racially orientated subjects who for some reason call themselves anti-Zionists, but in practice they operate as crypto-Zionists - defending deep “Jewish Interests”. They do whatever they can to silence any meaningful criticism of Zionism and its vast support amongst world Jewry.....

Read in full at...
 http://freethepeeps.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/hello-world/

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com


What are these anti-semitic rantings doing on IMC??

20.11.2007 19:56

Atzmon is a notorious anti-Semite. It is a mark of utter political confusion to not have deleted this racist crap immediately!

Tim Vanhoof


Atzmon interview by Indymedia

05.12.2007 13:28

This took place on Fri 30 Nov. Be sure not to miss it.

 http://www0.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/387155.html

knuckles
mail e-mail: knuckles@gmail.com


23 Comments went down MiniTruth's Memory Hole?

10.02.2008 23:38

Comments

Display the following 23 comments

1. Goliath always loses — Paul Grenville
2. Don't Publish Apologetics for Hitler and the 3rd Reich — Tony Greenstein
3. Tony vs Gilad - a long running battle — ¡No pasarán!
4. Don't Publish Apologetics for Hitler and the 3rd Reich — Tony Greenstein
5. Should those in Glass Houses Throw Stones, Mr. Greenstein? — knuckles
6. An amendment of Atzmon's text especially for Greenstein.... — knuckles
7. Tony's popularity at the PSC AGM — knuckles
8. The Israeli Army — George Jackson
9. Gilad posts an open comment to this — thecutter
10. Gilad Atzmon - an open comment to JSF — knuckles
11. Deconstructing Tony's 'argument' — knuckles
12. Playing for the Palestinians — Matthew
13. Knuckles Atzmon — Tony Greenstein
14. Lot's of sites have this article — Searcher
15. knuckles is not atzmon — knuckles
16. Tovy Greencard and the emperor's new clothes — Matthew
17. Gilad Atzmon's letter to Indymedia UK (as yet not online) — knuckles
18. What's it all about, Indy? — knuckles
19. MARY RIZZO'S POST TO INDYMEDIA (AS YET NOT ONLINE) — knuckles
20. Saying NO to the JAZ hyenas — knuckles
21. What are these anti-semitic rantings doing on IMC?? — Tim Vanhoof
22. Taking a look inside the matrix of Jewish Tribal Politics..... — Matthew
23. Atzmon interview by Indymedia — knuckles

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