throwing fire extinguishers at people sounds pretty brutal too.

these links don't appear to be working

spraying em is waaaaaay funnier

Nobody threw a fire extinguisher you liberal fluffy blind as a bat shithouse.

to the person that thinks throwing a fire extinguisher BACK is equal as firing live rounds killing someone at piont blank and running over they body in a land rover.

1. why was the cop untrained?
2. why was he then armed?
3. why was the gun loaded?
4. why was a land rover with arms personals in the middle of the crowd?
5. why later did the cops attack sleeping people in a school?

anser, it time to wake up those desitions were not taken in 'the heat of battle' they were planned in advance by leaders of the police and state. and I mean on a euro level,that why a boy got shoot in Gotemburg in a very similal way.

Equal? throwing a fire extinguisher
I do not think so.

to the person that thinks throwing a fire extinguisher BACK is equal as firing live rounds killing someone at piont blank and running over they body in a land rover.

1. why was the cop untrained?
2. why was he then armed?
3. why was the gun loaded?
4. why was a land rover with arms personals in the middle of the crowd?
5. why later did the cops attack sleeping people in a school?

anser, it time to wake up those desitions were not taken in 'the heat of battle' they were planned in advance by leaders of the police and state. and I mean on a euro level,that why a boy got shoot in Gotemburg in a very similal way.

Equal? throwing a fire extinguisher
I do not think so.

Well those pix are pretty interresting, but they've been posted about a thousand time on every Indy website...
What would be more interresting to explain is the context in which it happenned. I wasn't there, but lot of Indy-comrades told me about it.

What part of the demo was it? What was that police car doing isolated in the middle of a crowd? What was demonstrator's attitude before and after police actions at that time? And so on...

I think answering those questions would be far more interresting...

In response to the last post, sorry , but u should think , obviously......
The demostrator's attitude after the police action was -DEAD :(
You might find it interesting because yer indy-comrades are all mailing each other-
hey, I do too -
but let's face it ! -
the only diference for the vast majority of people is that this tragic but banal brutality took place in front of indy & corporate media camera

shit keeps happening -
la lucha continua

no war but the class war

venceremos =:-)

no, I don't equate throwing fire extinguishers with shooting people. But if you put people who have guns in fear of their lives, then you be all that surprised if you do get shot. And why do the police carry guns? Because people throw things like petrol bombs, scaffold poles and fire extinguisheres at them.

Hey Sceptic.

What the fuck are you talking about? Those 'scared' doves with guns threw a fire extinguisher at Guiliani in an act of provovation. Presumably they weren't too scared to initiate violence, then. And they were far better equipped to deal with it when it came. Bloody 'liberals' never change, do they.

where have these pictures been until now. have they been out there and i've just not seen them or did they just get put together like that recently. they explain a lot of questions. like how carlos was wearing three different outfits after he died.
but there are a lot of questions about other things that happened at genoa that i would like answered. when i was in the media centre on the saturday night two body bags were removed from the diaz school along with people on stretchers. at the time we told ourselves they were trying to intimidate us but does anyone actually know now? since ive been home i have heard a lot of rumours about missing people and bodies that were found near genoa of people that were last seen at the protests.

I don't care if these pictures have been shown "thousands of times before", as someone's suggesting. Everyone needs to see this images, just to get a true piture of what it is we're really up against. How the fuck people can get all self-righteous about people chucking fire extinguishers is beyond me; LOOK at these pictures; he's holding it in front of his face, NOT THROWING! In any case, chucking a fire extinguisher at a moving armoured vehicle can NOT IN ANY WAY be equated with shooting a man in the head and then running over his fucking body, leaving it for fucking hours in the street. WAKE THE FUCK UP!

I don't believe that anyone needs to be defending actions of demonstators, making analysis of what actions are equal or not equal to other actions (i.e. shooting vs. throwing a fire extinguisher). The truth is we need to expect that this is what the state will do to defend itself. This is what we are fighting. It is sad, but if (and when) we threaten the state, they will kill us. Until we overthrow them.

jesus fucking christ. this shit is happening today in a civilised world. and then the fucks who run the the police wonder why we riot.
take note politicians and corporate puppets:

there will be more bloodshed.

there will be more death.

but you bastards will rue the day you crossed the people.
without us you are all nothing.

we will have our day.

....What history really shows is that today's empire is tomorrow's ashes, that nothing lasts forever, and that to to not resist is to acquiesce in your own oppression. The greatest form of sanity that anyone can exercise is to resist that force that is trying to repress, opress, and fight down the human spirit.

- Mumia Abu-Jamal.

Someday, somewhere, today's empires are tomorrow's ashes.
Make that day come soon to all.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, ARM YOURSELVES.

Completely unrelated, but I must say this. Today I was sitting in by business and managment class - boooo hissss - don't ever ask why i take it, very complicated. I am 17 in my final year of school.
Never in my life have I understood so much of what we deem as 'knowledge,' but never felt so stupid. I sat there not understanding the reason how, even though voicing our discontent, we allow things as they are in the world to continue as they are.

I smoke myself to sleep because I'm losing faith that any of us will ever amount to anything more than reluctant human subsidies, the moving parts of a death-machine, protesting their complicity, but waiting for somebody else to throw theor body on the churning gears.


For the sake of humanity, rise up.

Lloyd Baker is right when he says that these pictures show "a true picture of what we're really up against."

These pictures show a group of people, ostensibly demonstrating for justice and equality, attacking another group of people with sticks and stones. Their aim appears to be to cause them as much alarm and physical damage as possible. The targets of their attacks are outnumbered and largely immobile because their vehicle is trapped. We all know that the demonstrators are the good guys, on our side, and can do no wrong. Even when they appear to step over the line, there's some good justification for it. Conversely, the police are the bad guys, evil agents of the state, the enemy. Regardless of their individual behaviour, they are automatically targets for as much violence and abuse as can be practically levelled at them the second they put on their uniforms.

In the course of this action, one of the group attacking the police car is shot dead by one of the policemen inside. He is holding a large, heavy fire extinguisher in his hands. We will never know whether he intended to throw it into the car, but the caption for photo 6, which says that he was using it to defend himself, is a rather generous judgement at best. Regardless of whether he intended to throw it or not, the fact is that he was part of a group of people attacking the car. If he was scared of the people inside the car, he would presumably have run in the opposite direction. However, the overall context of his actions is aggressive, not defensive.

On a simple level, we might feel that someone attacking someone else with sticks and stones doesn't deserve to be shot dead. This appears to be an injustice. But on a moral level, there is little difference. The people attacking that car were aiming to use as much violence as they could muster against its occupants. Sticks and stones, and even fists and boots, are not trivial weapons when wielded by a large group against a smaller one. The fact that one of the police responded with the most violent option to hand and killed one of the demonstrators doesn't show a moral difference between the two groups, but a moral equivalence. They were both there for an all-out fight, and the ones with the greater firepower "won".

Different people will draw different conclusions from this.

If you think that shooting Giuliani was absolutely unjustified, that he was a victim, possibly a martyr, then you probably think that attacking the police car was fair protest and the shooting was police brutality. You might have allied yourself to a cause which you feel has some general validity, but in the end it comes down to being just another partisan group struggling for power "by any means necessary". I ask myself whether I'd want to live in a society run by the kind of people attacking that police car. The answer is that I wouldn't; I know this because *I already do*. It is a brutal society where the rich exploit the poor, the strong oppress the weak, and order is maintained ultimately by the powerful using as much violence as necessary against those that oppose them.

The logical extension of this is that you are fighting a war, not a war of ideas or a war for justice, but a war of arms simply for power. If that's what it comes down to, then why not get yourselves guns and bombs for the next demonstration? See how many police you can take out before they take you out. You will be able to know who's won by counting the number of dead on either side, or estimating the amount of territory held after the battle.

However, I know that most people wouldn't go this far. They like to cling to a shred of moral high ground. They like the confrontation, they like the violence, just as long as no-one's too badly hurt and they get to go home at the end of the day. When someone gets really hurt, or killed, or when the state cracks down and locks you up for 20 years rather than a couple of days, then that's brutality, violence, dictatorship. This might be very diverting in its own right, but you have to ask yourselves, has anything really changed as a result of this? And what are you aiming towards, the day when there'll simply be enough of you to beat the police in an all-out fight? Then what?

If you fall into either of these two categories, you're going nowhere. The state is laughing at you. You're playing their game, and they're much bigger and better at it than you are. Wars are what they're good at. They've got the training, the technology, the personnel. You're just the canon fodder, and you lose twice: you lose the fight, and you lose the argument. You haven't offered anything new.

Alternatively, you could struggle for real change. For you, morality is a principle, not a tactic. Peace and democracy are just as important as justice and equality, in fact, they're inextricably linked. Your self-respect leads you to conduct yourself with dignity and show respect for others, even those that don't appear to "deserve" it. Your struggle might lead you into danger or even death, but you wear no uniform or badge, and you carry no arms. You don't debase yourself by responding to the brutality of others with that of your own.

Your methods will be varied: sometimes you'll be on the streets, but often you'll be less visible, working in your local community, working behind the scenes in campaign groups or working through the democratic institutions, as imperfect as they are. The violent, unjust, unequal state has no defence against you as you're working to undermine its authority by changing the way people view themselves and their relationships with others, rather than confronting it on its own terms. Your successes won't be dramatic, but incremental. The old cliché is very true: if you want to change the world, change yourself. Right now, many of you look just like the people we're up against. Different uniform, same hatred in your eyes.

"I ask myself whether I'd want to live in a society run by the kind of people attacking that police car. "

Yet another fluffy liberal reformer misses the point...

We don't want to live in a society run by anybody....that is why we are ANARCHISTS....Surely this concept isn't that hard to grasp?