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This is scary

a scared person | 10.08.2002 23:45

An article from today's Guardian about the religous Zone created in North London so Jews can entertain a myth. Describes something which would be more at home in the Dark Ages than 2002.

Testing the boundaries of faith

Zoning to permit tasks otherwise forbidden on the sabbath is being fought all the way

Steven Morris
Saturday August 10, 2002
The Guardian

The plans have been finalised and the contractors briefed. Splashes of yellow paint have begun to appear on pavements in north-west London where the boundary posts will soon be erected. After a bitter battle a proposal to set up an eruv - an area within which Orthodox Jews can carry out tasks otherwise forbidden on the sabbath - is to be realised. Over the next few weeks workers should begin to erect dozens of 30ft high poles connected by fishing line to enclose the six-and-a-half square mile area.
The United Synagogue, the leading Orthodox wing of British Judaism, claims the scheme will benefit thousands of observant Jews who are not allowed to carry out tasks, including pushing prams or wheelchairs or carrying keys and prayer-books, on the sabbath if they are not within an eruv. But opponents fear the eruv could be divisive and make the area, which includes Golders Green, Hampstead Garden Suburb, Hendon and Finchley, a target for racist violence.

Others believe the scheme is a claim for territory which will lead to the area being "invaded" by Jewish people. They are angry that the poles and wire will form "gateways" into their neighbourhoods. Some are puzzled as to why the followers of a faith which imposes such restrictions go to such lengths to find loopholes. Many Jewish people believe the eruv makes them seem ridiculous.

The controversy is stoked by three motivated groups. Elizabeth Lawrence, of the Barnet eruv objectors' group, said: "It is a physical claim of territory which the majority of people find inappropriate. We should try to live together, not split the community. This has been a harmonious area but the eruv will cause trouble."

Elizabeth Segall, convenor of the forum against intrusive eruvs and a committee member of the eruv boundary opponents group, said: "We feel that our human rights will be affected. It's a monstrous thing, an affront to civil rights." Mrs Segall and husband Jeffrey are incensed that the frontage of their house is part of the boundary. When they objected to the chief rabbi, they were outraged to receive a reply saying they were at liberty not to use the eruv and indeed to demolish their house if they wished, "thus causing the frontage to cease to exist".

The United Synagogue eruv committee claims it will benefit 10,000 people who observe the sabbath but campaigners claim only 600 observe the restrictions. The committee points out that major cities around the world, including Sydney, Washington and Venice, have successful eruvs but the protesters reply that they do not use purpose-built poles and wire.

The committee sought permission for the eruv in 1992 but was turned down by Barnet council on planning grounds. During a public inquiry the following year residents including Lord McGregor, the first chairman of the press complaints commission, and the late Lord Soper, a president of the Methodist conference, expressed reservations but in 1994 the scheme was approved by the government.

Under plans finally approved by Barnet council in 1998 most of the 11-mile perimeter is to be made up of boundaries such as the M1, the A1 and the Northern line of the underground. But to maintain a continuous boundary - so the eruv can be considered a "private domain" posts connected with 1,000 metres of fishing line will be erected. Since then campaigners have expressed concern that damage could be caused to trees on Hampstead heath by the poles. They worry that birds could be caught in the wires. They suggest that safety could be compromised where the wires cross busy roads.

The present hurdle - the colour of the poles - is typical. The eruv committee has suggested painting them sage green. But though in truth the campaigners do not care about the colour they have discovered that the council's public works committee decided that the colour ought to go out to consultation and have used this to try to delay the scheme again.

When this hurdle is surmounted by the eruv committee, the campaigners will try a new tack, perhaps trying to get the proposals referred to the court of human rights in Strasbourg - where incidentally there is an eruv - arguing that it could impinge on their right under article nine of the human rights act to "freedom of thought, conscience and religion".

Against
The neat house which is Lorna Noble's home and the base for her successful advertising business is part of the southern boundary of the eruv in Child's Hill.

Two streets on either side of the terrace where Ms Noble lives will be framed by poles and wire. On one side the street which will be bridged leads directly into an estate, which Ms Noble says will make the structure look like a gateway. On the other side it appears the pole could obstruct the window of a private, two-bedroom flat.

Ms Noble said: "I don't think we ought to be made to live for seven days a week with this boundary so that a minority can push a pram." She is angry that she has no choice that her property is being used to mark the line."Nobody has asked us if we mind. I don't see why I should put up with this."

Ms Noble says that most people in the area have no idea what the yellow marks on the pavements near her home signify. "But when they realise that poles with wire strung across them are going to be put up beside their front doors and in front of their houses they will be angry."

For
Because Millie Sampson's chronic asthma makes it difficult for her to go more than short distances without her wheelchair, it is forbidden for her to go to the synagogue on the sabbath with her eight children.

The eruv, she says, would improve her life. She said: "For more than 10 years I haven't been to synagogue with my children on the sabbath. They go off in the morning and come back at lunch but we can't go out as a family together."

This week Mrs Sampson has been preparing for her son's bar mitzvah. Because of the restrictions it must be held at their home in Hendon.

"The eruv would definitely improve the quality of my life dramatically. I don't see why it can't happen. It's a technical boundary which doesn't impinge on anybody.

"What's the difference between it and a parish boundary? There are parish boundaries all over the place and nobody thinks they affect anybody. I'm not sure why the opponents of the eruv are frightened. I think it's because people don't like change.

"I don't think anybody should be afraid that suddenly a whole load of religious people are going to move into the area. That won't happen."

Facts and figures
· There are more than 200 eruvs in cities around the world. There is one in every town in Israel and most major cities in the US.

· The eruv in Sydney, set up in June, has been created from cliff faces, a golf course and fences along Bondi beach. The Washington DC eruv includes the White House and supreme court. The Toronto eruv worked with the railroad company to use its fences as a boundary.

· Eruvs date from biblical times. Under religious law, Jews are not allowed to carry any item in a (public domain) on the sabbath.

· The north-west London eruv will not be the first in the UK. The residents of a street in Temple Fortune, north London, made one in the 1990s.

· Many Jewish homes are set up as eruvs to allow families to perform tasks which would otherwise be forbidden on the Sabbath.

· The eruv committee says the cost of construction and maintenance will be met by voluntary contributions and sponsorship.

a scared person

Comments

Hide the following 26 comments

Hysteria

11.08.2002 11:01

What's the problem with an eruv? It's not goign to cause any long-term problems, unless you are afraid of a "flood" of Jews in North London (a bit like a Daily Mail reader fearing the "flood" of refugees).

There are eruvim in other cities, such as Venice and Boston, and there is no big problem with them. The Jewish community will be paying for it, so no funds will be taken away from social services.

I think the fear many have is of funny looking people moving into their area. I can understand the concerns of many Jews that they may be ghettoed by an eruv, that the creation of Jewish boundaries will inspire anti-Jewish feelings and from a feeling of separateness that an eruv could bring, undermining the aims of multi-culturalism. Yet, the eruv won't stop people from walking down streets or buying houses in Hendon or force people into accepting the Jewish religion. It's a wire on a series of telegraph poles and if that makes a few people in a community happy, then so be it. It means they can push prams, carrying umbrellas and take their prayar shawls to synagogue on the sabbath. So what? And why should anyone fear the response of anti-Semites? Should we always change the way we do things in fear of the reaction of violent racists?

Dan


I agree

11.08.2002 11:55

We should all support the right of peoples everywhere to practice their religion/culture (within reason).
I agree wholeheartedly with Dan

Antonius Cliffus Jnr.


More

11.08.2002 12:00

Some of these residents are blatantly reactionary anyway!

Near where I live a man wanted to set up a home for people with learning difficulties.
The local residents on the same street were up in arms (afterall this could lower the value of their property).
Rumours were flying around - these people could be rapists and criminals - and the residents had a big petition. Even the Labour Councillor supported them, even though the source of their complaint was bigotry.

Antonius Cliffus Jnr.


Hysterix

11.08.2002 12:43

What a load of old bollox, religion being the root of all evil and the cause of millions of deaths suffering and misery. not surprised Dan is in favour being a middle class
jew, why wouldn't he be. Of course any critism will get the usual barrage of of abuse.

not surprised to see that the White House is also in an Eruv,
otherwise most of the American Media and all powerfull jewish Lobby groups would be out on their ear'oles on saturday ..

The eruv in Sydney, set up in June, has been created from cliff faces, a golf course and fences along Bondi beach. The Washington DC eruv includes the White House and supreme court. The Toronto eruv worked with the railroad company to use its fences as a boundary.

O Laf


As Rabbi Blitzstein once said...

11.08.2002 13:20

What are you getting so worried? I don't imagine if the Hare Krishnas decided to set up a few seperatist compounds near the airports we'd be all that worried about it. Just because one objects to religion doesn't entitle one to hector those who practise it. I doubt, however, that the objections are purely the result of some antisemitic revulsion.

lenin
mail e-mail: lenin138@yahoo.co.uk


house demolishing?

11.08.2002 15:17

'Mrs Segall and husband Jeffrey are incensed that the frontage of their house is part of the boundary. When they objected to the chief rabbi, they were outraged to receive a reply saying they were at liberty not to use the eruv and indeed to demolish their house if they wished, "thus causing the frontage to cease to exist".'

i think that quote kinda points to the nature of some of the people involved in the Eruz....
that's not anti-semitism,all religious extremists are equally intolerant....& then we're told we ahve to tolerate them...

lp


To Olaf

11.08.2002 16:24

You've conveniently pigeonholed me as a "middle-class jew", although you know nothing about me, and used that as an argument against the eruv. That is a pitiful, bigoted argument, but sadly representative of many ignorant people. Are you a friend of John Tyndall?

Regarding the North London eruv, most of it follows "boundaries" such as the A1 and the northern line. However, in order to delineate it properly, there has to be a marking of boundaries across roads, etc, so the idea is to put up some telegraph poles and fishing wire. Big deal. There's a lot more worrying issues in London than the position or colour of telegraph poles.

Anyway, many religions have practices that are publically displayed: the muezzin calling Muslims to prayer, Hare Krishnas dancing in the middle of Oxford Street, etc. It's what makes London a wonderfully attractive, cosmopolitan and multi-cultural city. Why shouldn't people regard the eruv with the same pride - maybe even making it an attraction for non-Jews? Why the hostility?

All this crap about it obscuring the view of people living in houses is ridiculous. If that is a legitimate argument, then we should demolish street lights and telegraph poles for telephone lines.

As for house demolishing, yes, I agree that's a stupid thing to say - if, indeed, it was said in this way. If the Chief Rabbi did say it, he should issue a public apology.

Dan


Lots of practice demolishing houses

11.08.2002 22:45

I bet every one of the 600 fanatics who practice this support Sharon's disgusting policies. If they interpret judaism to mean you can't use a wheel chair or car on the sabbath, even if you're sick, then they're fundamentalists and deserve no support at all for these twisted rules.

I'm with the all the jews who think strict adherence to this pre-medieval totalitarianism is bollox. Apparently thats over 90%.

This sucks


religious mumbo jumbo

12.08.2002 01:38

If the eruv is no different than a parish boundary then I see no reason at all why it should be necessary to paint it on the pavements or erect poles down the streets. If the relevant authorites decide where the boundary runs then the nearby synagogues can simply issue maps to its brethren so that they know when they are inside this magical barrier. The rest of us can stay none the wiser thank you very much.

Marcus


the original religion

12.08.2002 01:50

Hey, if we're painting mystical lines based on really ancient religious beliefs can we get ley lines marked out again?

Amy


are you mad?

12.08.2002 09:25

Some of the replies to this are unbelievable. Lefty looney politically correct bollox gone stark staring mad. What you stupid people have to ask yourself is this- would ANY other 'religeon' be allowed to erect a 6.5 sq mile fence, ANTWHERE in the UK? This is just yet another example of the power the Jews have EVERYWHERE in the western world. Wise up, idiots.

muzikin


What the fuck is this all about

12.08.2002 10:31

me religion is culture hand ganja, thus me is not alowed to work any day hof da week, can me raise a fence around me ass so dat me don't ferget wot me duty is . Is it coz I is black? Seriously dis fence thin is dig sayin to da rest hof london "Yo, me Uncle Jamal guys arn't jews, our religion is based on education hand knowledge, me Uncle Jamal people is ignorent, we don't want to live wif me Uncle Jamal guys. me can understhand dis jew point hof view whun he meets a typical English socca fan, but dis is kind hof a shame me think. These Orthodox extremists feel way to superior to da rest hof humanity, as all extremists do. In all religions there is 90% hof moderates dat defend da actions hof 10% hof illuminated lunatics 'coz they ave da same religion. Lets brake their ankles.

Vinceslas
- Homepage: http://www.greenei8ht.com


Hostility

12.08.2002 11:31

Take a look at the hostility towards Jews in this thread:
- "not surprised Dan is in favour being a middle class jew, why wouldn't he be"
- "I bet every one of the 600 fanatics who practice this support Sharon's disgusting policies"
- "This is just yet another example of the power the Jews have EVERYWHERE in the western world."
- "These Orthodox extremists feel way to superior to da rest hof humanity, as all extremists do ... Lets brake their ankles."

This is not about Israel/Palestine or feelings of superiority or even Zionism. Eruvim are not "medieval" -they have been built all over the world since the time of King Solomon. Yet, some have deliberately twisted the issue to suit their own prejudices and backed this with blatant lies - for instance, the lie that it is a 6.5km fence. It's evidence of a neo-fascist mentality that has been allowed to surface too often on IMC, without too much of a challenge.

I back Muslims having the right to have the muezzim calling them to prayer across loud speakers. I back the right of Christians to toll bells in their churches on a Sunday. I back the right of pagans to celebrate solstice at Stonehenge.

Accordingly, I back the creation of eruvim, which are hardly more intrusive than any other bit of street furniture. I would imagine any decent, liberal-minded person, even atheists, would defend freedom of worship, so long as it does not grossly infringe on personal liberty. In my mind, an eruv would involve a minute sacrifice (if there is any at all) in return for enabling people to worship their god.

Dan


Kosher pavements next ?

12.08.2002 11:41

oh yeah sure it's fine for the middle class affluent jews to show approval, while the rest of us can hardly believe it ..
de man on de last comment have it on lock ..
what would happen if some other group tried this, UPROAR !!

Why not go for Kosher pavements where lesser mortals are banned from putting their dirty paws, after all the orthodox jews won't eat from a plate that a non Jew has eaten from why should they be forced to share the paths with us !!!
(any dayy of the week )

LOADA BOLLOX !!!

adam an eve it


Left-wing anti-semitism

12.08.2002 13:01

It seems that the opposition to the eruv by some people in this thread is guided by anti-Jewish hatred, particularly towards orthodox Jews. This is more than a debate over the merits of an eruv, it is about Jew-bashing. Yet, it is tolerated and excused by the left because the Jewish race is identified with the oppression of Palestinians as well as appearing in the minds of bigots as conforming to the Nazi stereotypes of being affluent and forming the establishment. In many of the statements above, the characterisation of Jews is untrue, spiteful and racist. The fact that this racism is tolerated here is even more depressing.

Dan


not quite

12.08.2002 13:52

Imposing a medieaval mind-set zone on an area is wrong

anti-dan


secular jews are opposed to it

12.08.2002 15:43

an important thing which has been ignored is that many secular jews are opposed to the eruv It is supported mostly by the fundamentalists so they can honour bizarre rules. As I see it, this is a religious cop out. Either you believe working on the sabbath is ungodly or you don't. Creating an artificial 'private space' in London with a perimeter of 11 miles is bizarre. And if disabled orthodox jews really want to go to a synagogue on the sabbath then they just have to get permission from their rabbi.

I sincerely hope that these fundamentalist aspects of religion are a final gasp for air before they sink beneath the waves of a new spirituality.

jp


Distinction

12.08.2002 16:51

It's important to distinguish between "fundamentalist" and "strict". A strict orthodox Jew is not necessarily fundamentalist, as the pro-Palestine, ultra-orthodox Netauri Karta have shown. Fundamentalism should be eradicated, but an eruv is not about fundamentalism but adherence to talmudic scripture. You might not understand it and you may argue about whether it bends the rules, but the fact is that the eruv has been around for millenia and has not posed any problems to anyone apart from bigots.

An eruv does not impose any rules on non-Jews, it does not force religion on anyone (Judaism is not an evangelical religion), it's a bloody pole with fishing wire attached to it. Beyond concerns that a telegraph pole might be inconvenient, I really can't see the problem.

Dan


rofl

12.08.2002 18:39

nice response so far

i feel sorry for the people who hang out on indymedia who have such a backwards mindset- dan and co.

dan you talk utter shite in an educated manner - you go on about people being anti-jewish, it is infact you who is the one playing the anti-semitic card by accusing people of this. Thats been done before. Now fuck off.

How is this thing even religious.. the whole point of teh sabbath is your not meant to jack off on satrday or whatever else people do, by excluding this law which has been oh so holy up till now surelyyou are disregarding the religous aspect of the whoel thing

HERES A BETTER ANSWER - INSETAD OF FUCKING AROUND WITH WIRE AND POLES SO U CAN COME OUT OF UR HOME ON SATURDAY **JUST FORGET RELIGION****** wouldnt that be a whole lot easier??

The whole concept of religion and eruv's and whatever teh fuck else is just stupid, people who like to complicate life invented it all just like they invented jebus

a scared person


Scared

12.08.2002 20:40

Scared person: The only scary bit about this whole debate is fascists like you who would probably enjoy burning down synagogues if you had half the chance. You got no respect for religious diversity and, from what you've written, probably have a deep contempt for and distrust of Jews. Underneath for revolutionary facade, you are an insulting and dim-witted little Hitler.

Dan


!

12.08.2002 20:47

!

!


I have a Question

13.08.2002 19:13

Duhh... what is a eruv?

dub


dan - the real fascist!?!

15.08.2002 12:54

Dan Dan Dan ... what can we say to you?
Would we really enjoy burning down your synagogues?
I like a nice fire, I detest cultural/religous bullies and vandals. The whole point of all the god-fearing religions is to instill the fear of god in you ... do as god says or you will suffer, oh and by the way, er god told me to do it, so do as I say or suffer.
No I don't have any respect for religion or its diversity (what ever that is) and yes I do have contempt for and distrust jews along with all the rest of the fascist mentalities that pose as higher authorities.
Dan you are a sad man if you think that to highlight the absurd ways in which[jews] delude themselves is in any way comparible to supporting hitler (same class of arguement as god told me to do it!).
Oh come the day when those people who thought of themselves as jews finally realise that they are in fact just people with an opinion - people who don't think like you are not dirty unbelievers, goyim, cattle, hitler lovers or any other [lower]class of being.
'we will never be free until the guts of the last banker are used to hang the last priest/rabbi/iman'

jackslucid
mail e-mail: jackslucid@fsmail.net


"don't be scured"

16.08.2002 00:29

God the world would be so much better if everyone was exactly like me! Why can't the rest of the world be more like me, and think what I think!?? You're so stupid, stupid!!

"BOO!" scare you?


The truth about Eruvs

29.12.2002 06:01

The bland descriptions of an Eruv given here are I am afraid misleading.

The exemptions from religious restrictions were meant to apply within a household, and then extended to a "family compound" with a definite walled boundary.

Attempts to avoid the restrictions lead over the years to this concept being stretched further and further until it has now reached a pitch which, to the lay observer, seems an utter perversion of the original concept.

Whole areas of cities around the world are now included in these religious zones, sometimes covering several square miles.

In order to preserve the fiction of an enclosed compound an actual physical boundary has to be put together, partly from existing boundaries, and partly by constructing them. However fragile in places, this boundary must be physical, and it must be continuous. Every Friday it must be physically examined along its entire length by a rabbi and certified intact and valid for the coming weekend. This authorises the breaking of certain sabbath rules, for that particular weekend. The authorisation must be promulgated each friday to the faithful, whether by telephone, email, or in person.

If a break is found which cannot be repaired in time, then the rules may not be broken that weekend.

The boundary must span across every roadway, railway, path etc with a lintel and uprights to form a pretend doorway.

These features are usually constucted of thin "fishing" line. The boundary elsewhere may be fishing line slung between post of religiously approved size, spacing and colour. Other parts of this religiously consecrated boundary will be parts of the property of unknowing local residents - a wall of your house, part of your garden fence, etc.

In order further to underpin the fiction of a single domain, there is a need for the entire area to be under the ownership of the Jewish community which will use it. This is obviously a problem, which is usually resolved by the local council drawing up a legal document transferring to the jewish community a special sort of ownership (limited to religious purposes) of the entire area. In creating one recent central London eruv, the council held a ceremony in which this certificate of ownership was presented to the Rabbi.

Eruvs now exist in practically every major city of the western world, and more are being created every day.

Frequently local residents form groups to object to their own building being consecrated in this way without their permission for purposes of which they disapprove, but nearly always they are defeated by accusations of anti-semitism, and arguments that this is a trivial matter, of no concern to anyone but the jews involved.

My personal view is that Eruv proponents can't have it both ways. If things of the spirit are trivial, then they don't need an Eruv. If things of the spirit are significant, then others are entitled also to take these consecrations and pseudo-purchases as having spiritual significance - a significance which they may find deeply disturbing, and a threat to their own spiritual possession of their property.

I do not think it likely that any other religious group would be allowed to create such a physical/spiritual zone, even to positively support the practice of its religion. To do so in order to assist in avoiding the burden of a set of self-imposed and archaic rules seems even more difficult to accept.

I am afraid that this religious group achieves this astonishing special treatment only by continuing to trade on a sort of group guilt for events in germany half a century ago, to which they appeal with cries of "anti-semite" whenever they are denied special privileges.

Please be clear that the majority of racial jews, and probably even of religious jews, are (I think and hope) as unhappy about this state of affairs as you and I. It is the busy vocal extremists (as usual) who raise these issues which cause dissent.

Commentator


Fishing wire?

28.05.2004 10:19

So once again the Chosenites, get their own way. Because if you disagree you are an anti semite.

I have read all the comments here, and every one has missed a very valid point , and that point is , what about the wildlife? Yes London does have wildlife.

I wonder how many birds will be killed each year by getting caught up in these fishing lines. Left to dangle and starve to death. But so long as the Jews have their zone nothing else matters. Much like the Israel.

I hope the birds cause a stink about this , and learn to perch on these lines and crap on the heads of these inconsiderate people. Then watch as the Jewish media denounce these birds as anti semites.

Cornelius


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