Trivialize of the Nazism on Indy Belgium and France*

... the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the fights who will have expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.

A revisionist in Indymedia Belgique

One of the administrators of Indymedia Belgium and Indymedia France published on the list [indy-France-EDITO] of June which is use to the coordination of the editorial team a speak openly revisionist. This text published on the 7/06/02 provoked the departure of three persons Massalia, Astala and Tatahari of the editorial team, the other Indymedia France's members, Belgium and Europe which expressed themselves, supported globally this (revisionist) administrator whose nickname is Red Kitten.

For Red Kitten: " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive... they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. " (To see text joined below).

A big part of the administrators who expressed themselves, supports and show they solidarity whith Red Kitten. Indymedia seems to fall in a trap: the support of a companion who (in the best) is delirious, then the coming together with those who support this companion, as the Internet user " Do ", "Dominique", " himalove "; (look at:http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast) who uses in their publications texts of people for a long time crossed to the fascist enemy (in France, Faurisson and Garaudy who are close ideologically to the National Front).
If this trap closes, the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the ideals expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.

This alert on the revisionist "drift" of one of Indymedia's team members was passed on on various Indymedia mailing lists. So I join the various answers of condemnation or support.

The author of the revisionist comments should be thrown out of the Indymedia team, his comments should be denied clearly and publicly. Everything should be made to prevent that Indymedia Belgium falls under the influence of revisionists.

That does not seem to start to be done.

Mathias
One of the Founder members of france.indymedia.org

The revisionist text:

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000161.html

Indy-France-EDITO ] Article on israeliens concentration camps
Red kitten imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Fri, 07 Jun on 2002 16:20:07 0700

On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing...

Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler, whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet)

There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most height
level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)

ChEErz
///R e d. k i t t e n///

The article to which Red Kitten makes reference
Our detention camps are similar to German concentration camps
By KA
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20338&group=webcast

Trivialize the Nazism
By Laurent 12:09pm Mon Jun 10 ' 02 (Modified one 12:01pm Tue Jun 11 ' 02)
http://www.france.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=20521&group=webcast

Being seen on indy-France-EDITO

Article on israelians concentration camps

On the 8/06/02, red kitten has ecrit:

" On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing... "

Why do not to compare with the other camps then. As the one of Sangate, the one that the americains have in Cuba...
This comparison does not aim to compare the camps, but the processes.

" Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler"

You make a mistake, in the antifascist fight, we are numerous to beat against this mixture (and a lot of with the Nazis), because it is extremely important, it plays totally in against us. One of the reasons, especially uses by the extreme-right-hand side, to compare staline to hitler, is not to obtain the same refusal of staline and hitler, but on the contrary, to obtain the same impunity for hitler (and of the Nazis) than for Stalin (I shall not discuss if it's just or not).

" whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet) "

I think that you go on one hillside very slippery. It's again exactly the same argument uses by the extreme-right-hand side. The war does deaths, and it is true that we forgets a little bit fast the 20 millions of soviet died at the moment where we receives Bush for the celebration of the landing in Normandy.
But the mechanics of extermination systematics, industrial, - the final solution, organized by the Nazis has nothing of similar . It has not to compare the number of what is not comparable. The final solution is the most abominable thing which was thought, as regular as clockwork, in our history. It is what give a particular character to the shoa.
And the question of the figure is a false question.

"There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)"

The abomination Nazi went effectively at the end of the capitalist logic, by making soaps, clipboards... with men, women and children.
There is nothing of such in Israel. Once again, we can't agree to compare what is not comparable.

It is for that I would join Massalia.

" I do not know if we have to see in these answers some "angélisme", some naivety or the other thing. For me, all this makes me jump up and roar. "

All these false arguments are against the Palestinian cause and make the games of ALL the extremists: they trivialize the Nazism; they show the ignorance on the subject (Nazism) of the one that spreads them, and consequently, he risks to not be listening on the problem of the Palestinian.

I don't understand why it is necessary always to add excess to support the Palestinian people. The reality, all the reality, is already sufficient for that. These people aren't they so not convinced of the correctness of the fight of the Palestinian that they are obliged to used these doubtful comparisons.

To beat since a lot of time against the extreme right ideas and the négationisme, I would say carefree that this text is an anti-semitic dirty. To avoid attacks, he hides by using the word Zionism, but indeed to say Jew. The Jews behind the big capital, it's reminder me of things.

We are anti-capitalist, and to fall into the trap from this fellow me made me concerns. The great man of the fight against the muslim after the 11 september is not a Jew, it is G. Bush.

That one uses the palestinian cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Let us not fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD)** supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews.

Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. I recognize as friends refuzniks (objectors of consciousness) who are Jewish israelians (being I the same objector).

Defends the Palestine, attacks the Sharon government, the methods of the army and the supports in France to these fascists is an things. That this was an occasion for the racists and the anti-semites to express themself under the cover of a pro-Palestinian label is another things in which I don't want to participate.

Astala imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Sat, 08 Jun on 2002 12:14:52 0200

Red Kitten the administrator concerned " persists and signs " directly on the alert launched on Monday , June 10 as follows:

Red kitten persists and signs
By red kitten 1:21am Mon Jun 10 ' 02
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast
Redkitten@indymedia.be

I confirm the sentence " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. " And I waits that some one explains to me in what it would be revisionist.
-----
1- The concentration camps (generaly of work) and extermination camps are not the same thing.
Concentration camps serve to concentrating a population given in a small space generaly accompanied with a wild economic exploitation.
An extermination camp aims at exterminating by some means a population given.
The difference adorned me clearly, even if in the practice, both concepts can be coexisting or additional.
-----
2- The extermination camps are unproductive in the sense that, contrary to the labour camps, they produce nothing, and on the contrary, need some contribution of workforce, energy and material which produces nothing (but destroys the life)
While one explains to me in what this is revisionist, while I don't speak about their existence, or, when and in which quantity.
-----
3- The purpose of this demonstration was to clarify an used terminology (too often) and everywhere, and also to remember the economic dimension of the Nazi concentration camps.
Refugee camps in the Europe of Schengen, for example, are concentration camps (because there locks a type of population) but are not extermination camps.
-----
Finally, this method to display the internal problems of a collective Indymedia, by avoiding the dialogue and explaining publicly arguments in a one-sided way seem to me very remote from Indymedia's principles...
[ And as for my pseudo, no problem, name, first name, address and registry office known for the editorial staff, it is noway a protection]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The administrators who left the Indymedia France team:

---> Tatahari: departure of indymedia because of the revisionimus
" Noticing that in the name of the freedom of expression (let say, let do, the Internet user will make the sort out) indymedia France tolerates within the editorial team a revisionist individual and favors the broadcasting of texts.... "
Continuation:
http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20541&group=webcast

---> Astala: Article on israelians concentration camps
"... That one uses the palestiniene cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Don't let us fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD) supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews. Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. ... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000168.html

---> Massalia: Article on concentration camps//Desolation
"... As for me this small discussion brings me to a point of not return, it is the limit which I can not exceed if the majority of the persons here think in this way. I clarify that I am of Arabic origin, to avoid any misunderstanding on my last messages... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000162.html



The administrators who support Red Kitten:

---> Wilfrid (France Indy): Fw - enchanted
"... At first, I see effectively nothing of revisionist in the text of red Kitten... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003354.html

---> Gilles Klein (France Indy): [dh - rezo] revisionists in France Indymedia?
" A friend, an antifascist activist, intervened in the internal mailing list of indymedia to express himself by saying... ...What I think of it: the message ((which accuses Red Kitten of being a revisionist)) which you quote is only a dirty and nauseous charge. "
Continuation:
http://dh-rezo.org/archive_dh-rezo.html?body=1919&forum=archive_dh-rezo

---> Gustave Rozoy (France Indy) Re - [imc Revisionist France within France Ind
"... It seems to me really exessif to accuse this text of revisionismus....
At least, that does not justify to publish on-line a "denial", irrelevant besides... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003353.html

---> Arno (France Indy) (the 11-th comments) on the text: Censorship on indymedia by Cathar
" Anti-semitic, Fascist... Mathias, you were too far. If some friends on indy (I think to Gilles and my pal red kitten), in a concerns of respect, but especially to advance, to create and to impulse dynamics (in brief to contribute to the free media), tolerates your muck, it's not the same for me... "
Continuation:
Http://france.indymedia.org / front.php3? Article_id =...

And also: " the revisionism and indymedia " by arno 6:31pm Wed Jun 26 ' 02 (Modified one 4:44am Sat Jun 29 ' 02)
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=22124

---> Yannic Meerbergen (France and Belgium Indy): Tatahari, allocates indymedia because of the revisionismus
"... RedKitten, a follower of Garaudy and Faurisson? Inquire little before saying bullshit... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000193.html

Yannic Meerbergen is also a problem, look at:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=27645

---> Han (Belgium Indy): If you want to read the artickle
" The allegations towards Red Kitten are totally wrong"
Suite (1er commentaire) sur:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25780&group=webcast

---> Bart (Belgium Indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...The mail you send in from Red Kitten isn't negationist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000863.html

---> Blicero (Italia Indy): Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...I haven't followed the france imc situation but I can totally be sure of the fact that redkitten is neither a revisionist nor a third positionist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000862.html

---> Maulwurf (Germany indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...i totaly agree and support to bart's opinion..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000864.html

*Indy France is at present closed, because an organization against the racism (SOS Racisme) threatened it to raise a complaint.

**GUD: a group of Fascists in France

Continuation of the information in French on: membres.lycos.fr/razor22