What a washout the anti-war actions were!!!

I agree

01.11.2002 10:08

Yeah, I agree—that 400,000 a couple of weeks ago was really small as well. I've had more people than that in my front room.

sad boy

You have to remember that most people are at work and many don't live in major metropolitan areas. I got out of work at 7pm last night and as I don't live or work in a city, it was impossible to get down to London. Therefore, it's mainly students, pensioners and others who are not working who have the time to go on these demonstrations. If you held the demonstration on a weekend, you'd get far larger numbers. The trouble with protest movements is their Londoncentric focus, although it was good to see other cities taking up local actions this time.

Dan

I agree too

01.11.2002 11:18

"LSE occupied"?

One lecture theatre taken over for rants to the converted. Sorry, but 1968 it ain't and I'm old enough to remember.

Most people think the Iraq war isn't going to happen. Even most Americans don't want to get involved (and who can blame them? Would you sacrifice your life to save Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Jordon and Israel from a "possible" threat?).

Anti-war protests are the hobbyhorse of committed activists and anti-American Islamicists. But the hobbyhorse has become a dead horse. We should stop flogging it and move on to more relevant issues.

Only a year ago we were on the streets fighting globalisation? Then Globalise Resistance / SWP got involved. Dare I say the word "hijacked"?

Dirkie

We are all in denial

01.11.2002 11:20

Are you suprised that "only" a few thousand took action.We are living in a society where everyone with half a brain knows that Climate chaos is happening, our water is polluted and our food chain is being manipulated by corporations. But everyone is in denial! Cars (or should they be called SUVS now?) are bigger and more gas guzzling than ever before thus leading to more oil wars and more health risks.

So dont be suprised if no one turns up to protest anymore..i think we need mind doctors to work out why people are not going absolutely bonkers about the threat to our futures.

Looking into the future, when it comes to the crunch i feel that most people will just roll over and play dead or go into a coma!

Change your mind coz you cant rely on anyone else to change their habits.

undercurrents

I hate to agree with a such a whinger but...

01.11.2002 11:55

I went to a 'rally' in plymouth and the numbers were embarrasing, not even a stop the war banner, just a SWP
paper stall and a UNISON banner.

But I can't complain, I could have gone and done a real action but lunched it out so felt I should go and support somebody elses initiative.

However, the fact remains that the anti war movement (or any resistance movement in the UK) fails to attract mass involvment of the public. Human nature? I don't think so. I think the current apathy is a result of media brainwashing that creates a climate of disempowerment.

People don't well they make a difference or are listened to. People don't feel anything maters anyway. We are in the minority.

ben

polls

01.11.2002 12:33

Most Europeans oppose W-ar. Most Australians oppose W-ar. Most Americans oppose W-ar.

We are in the majority.

critical mass

really?

01.11.2002 13:19

There has never been such militant anti-war activity by such large numbers of people before a war has started. There is also a very strong aversion to this war by increasing numbers of people in Britain and the US. This war can be stopped!

It was fantastic to see Manchester find its voice last night, it almost brought a tear to me eye. Brilliant action causing citywide chaos. On the march from Oxford Road up to Piccadilly Gardens we had *everybody* out watching what was going on. Every pub, every restaurant, supermarket, late night shop, the yuppies in their newly gentrified real estate looking over their balconies, everybody was either out on the pavement or had their faces pressed against the window, as I passed Boots all the staff were stood on the pavement talking about it. Not a car moved on Oxford Road for over an hour, with this being such a strategic artery it meant that much of the city's traffic was at a standstill.

Things can only get better.

beg to differ

Wrong time, Dan?

01.11.2002 13:34

What Harlequin seems to be hitting on, in his/her endearingly naive way, is the fact that a few students occupying something is NOT going to stop this war taking place. To be sure, the student movement of the 1960s had some impact, but the Vietnam war ground on into the mid-70s.

Dan, you're right that people couldn't make the protests because of work commitments, but this fact could also be an opportunity. In fact, the ONLY surefire way we can halt this war before it begins is through widespread industrial action: We heard that Whitehall was concerned that the necessity of covering the FBU strikes would divert troops from any planned assault on Iraq - similar actions must deny the government the ability to prosecute their war.

This kind of organisation within the workplace is necessarily the most difficult task facing activists, and will not have the immediate payoff that is so emotionally sustaining for those who want to occupy ANYTHING! NOW! EVEN IF IT IS JUST ME AND MY MATE MILO! but the only alternative is the symbolic, tokenistic and parochial protest advocated, sadly, by the majority of the British left, Trot and anarchist alike. It goes without saying that it also involves entering into a dialogue with that apparently lumpen mass we all prefer to ignore: the working class.

Robin Cock

Wrong time?

01.11.2002 13:59

What Harlequin hits upon in her/his usual endearingly naive manner, is the fact that a few students occupying a lecture hall is NOT going to stop this war. To be sure, the student movement in the 1960s has some impact, but the Vietnam war ground on for many more years.

Dan, while correct that most people couldn’t attend because they were working, fails to see that this could equally be an opportunity. The ONLY way this war will be stopped before it begins is through a programme of mass industrial action. We heard Whitehall mandarins quaking in their brogues at the threatened FBU strikes, since the need to cover them meant diverting troops from training for war to comically playing with crap wooden ladders outside their barracks. It is imperative that we deny the state the means to prosecute a war (troops, ammunition, etc, etc). The emphasis now, therefore, needs to be on action WITHIN the workplace.

Admittedly this kind of organisation is the hardest task facing activists, yet it is equally clear that the only alternative is the kind of parochial, symbolic and ultimately ineffectual action we saw yesterday. This tactic may not endear itself to those who favour the quick emotional fix of the superficially radical but ultimately vacuous OCCUPY NOW! ANYTHING! EVEN IF IT IS JUST ME AND MY MATE MILO! approach sadly favoured by both the SWP and most anarchists, but it’s the only way anything will really change. (NB. It will also involve getting involved in a dialogue with that apathetic lumpen mass we all prefer to forget about: the working class.)

Robin Cock

Yes it was everywhere but it was shit

01.11.2002 14:08

Yeah, yeah, the protests were everywhere and in places i've never heard of etc etc.
But they were still crap weren't they?

Until the left wakes up and realises that real direct action means burning the universities to the ground, not occupying them, we're never gone get anywhere.

sad boy

everyone is crap!

01.11.2002 14:57

Yes, the anti-war protests were crap. But equally, whatever you do instead is also crap. Everyone and everything is crap. You might as well stay in bed.

Oh, except I agree burning down universities is a good idea. Best do it when the firefighters are on strike. They're crap too, of course.

a nonny mouse

most boring demo I have ever been to

01.11.2002 15:11

The Edinburgh demo was one of the most boring demos I have ever been to; everything totally predictable; same route as always, same style of boring, but theatraical speeches and so on. There is only one solution to this misery: do it yourself and ignore this police-cooperating SSP leadership!

eulalia

doesn't oil cause climate change?

01.11.2002 16:29

Loved the comment that war against Iraq is just some hobbyhorse game for saddos and we need to tackle serious things like Climate Change and the environment. Isn't this a
war about oil, which if my memory serves me correctly when used in cars etc causes climate change. And ask the Iraqi people about the state of their environment after all the depleted uranium the west so kindly donated to them during the last Gulf War.
Some demos were good - some crap. I think if you spoke to people in Brighton, they would say there's was at least exciting, with free pepper spray and batons from the police for having the cheek to stop the City's traffic.
It would be great if all the 400,000 people who went on the anti war demo came to direct action - but that's usually a failure of politicos to engage with people without a/belitting them
b/boring them to death
c/scaring them shitless.
It's so easier for us self rightous politicos to tell everyone they just don't come up to scratch with their muddled views of the world, but as Sussex Action for Peace showed in Brighton last night, if people forget their petty differences and get together and organise stuff they can get five hundred on the streets, and let people in the City know the massive anti war feeling there is in this country.
The group alsodo everything from stalls, to anti war singing classes, not everyones cup of tea, but fuck it, let people get involved with what they feel comfortable with.
The last contributer was right, if something is crap, organise something yourself but stop fucking moaning.

answers on a postcard

doesn't oil cause climate change?

01.11.2002 16:31

Loved the comment that war against Iraq is just some hobbyhorse game for saddos and we need to tackle serious things like Climate Change and the environment. Isn't this a
war about oil, which if my memory serves me correctly when used in cars etc causes climate change. And ask the Iraqi people about the state of their environment after all the depleted uranium the west so kindly donated to them during the last Gulf War.
Some demos were good - some crap. I think if you spoke to people in Brighton, they would say there's was at least exciting, with free pepper spray and batons from the police for having the cheek to stop the City's traffic.
It would be great if all the 400,000 people who went on the anti war demo came to direct action - but that's usually a failure of politicos to engage with people without a/belitting them
b/boring them to death
c/scaring them shitless.
It's so easier for us self rightous politicos to tell everyone they just don't come up to scratch with their muddled views of the world, but as Sussex Action for Peace showed in Brighton last night, if people forget their petty differences and get together and organise stuff they can get five hundred on the streets, and let people in the City know the massive anti war feeling there is in this country.
The group alsodo everything from stalls, to anti war singing classes, not everyones cup of tea, but fuck it, let people get involved with what they feel comfortable with.
The last contributer was right, if something is crap, organise something yourself but stop fucking moaning.

answers on a postcard

I think the problem was it was ona weekday!

01.11.2002 18:23

Sad boy, there weren't even 400,000 people on the anti-war demo a few weeks ago. I was on both the anti-war demo and the countryside demo a week before and the countryside demo was far bigger. For a start that march started at 10am in the morning!!! and there were two branches to that march and it took until 5:30pm for the last marchers to finish the march. The anti-war march on the other hand didn't start off until 1:30 pm and the last people arrived at Hyde Park at 6pm so no way was the anti-war march 400,000 strong at would say 150,000 the same as the offical estimate!

As for yesterdays demo I think the main reason was that it was held on a weekday! There are millions of people of people in Britain who would have loved to have taken part in those actions because they are strongly against this coming war but simply couldn't because they were working that day! We should also hold the Mayday actions on a Saturday as well. Holding actions on at the weekends also means that the police are less likely intimidate demonstrations when there are loads more people. For example look at how the police keep a low profile at massive events like the Notting Hill Carnival!

Harlequin

Yesterday was great!

01.11.2002 19:55

I disagree! I thought the London demo yesterday was very lively and despite the time and weather conditions it went very well! Turnout was good despite what you're all saying! and the timing created problems. I remember from yesterday that the procession seemed to piss off one particular driver of a range rover at Trafalgar Square!!!! Anyone remember him? He got out of his petrol guzzling monster, started arguments with the protestors (one guy shouted back "MR TOAD!, YOU'LL HAVE TO DRIVE AROUND US MR TOAD!" hahahahaha brilliant! The guy then had words with the police, got back in his car then tried driving past the protestors sitting in the road, had his car suurounded by protestors, was bailed out by a swarm of police who came to his aid and promptly pissed off at top speed towards Picadilly giving a one finger 'salute' to the protestors as he left! WANKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was there right up to the stage when the march got as far as the LSE, having witnessed the police man-handle some people at the start of the Strand and pulling some girl off her bike as she tried to divert off one of the side streets! The police were a disgrace yesterday!!!!!

Anyway we made a shit load of noise at Parliament Square, along Whitehall and pissed off that bastard in his car at Trafalgar Square!!!! Well worth it!

Yesterday was a top demo!

Mr Toad is a cunt

Yes the police were a disgrace on 31/10

01.11.2002 20:39

god they were charged-up and arsey, even by usual standards - but more importantly, did anyone else notice how by the time we got to Trafalgar Sq. (maybe before too?) very few of them had their P.C. no. on their uniform, like they're supposed to? I and a few others asked them why they had made themselves unidentifiable in this way, and each of them looked straight at us and claimed their numbers had been "ripped off" their uniforms by "you protestors", back in Whitehall. They all had the same story ready. When I commented that this was, strangely enough, exactly what those rough cops in Seattle had claimed, when people asked THEM where THEIR numbers were, they just responded with sarcasm/facetiousness (of course...)and one said: "You want numbers?I've got numbers, look - "and proceeded to pull down outer jacket to reveal the jacket underneath, which was also minus its number. When I said "there's nothing there" he just laughed; very blatantly not giving a fuck that he was letting me know he had nothing by which I could identify him. Just wondered whether others noticed this as it's pretty worrying (though obviously wouldn't be the 1st time)especially togther with their incredibly aggressive/provocative behaviour as we all entered the Strand...Are they legally allowed to do this numbers thing?cos if not I'm going to be straight on the phone to Blunkett...
also, where was all the mass civil disobedience that was supposedly the point of the event?

Jo

Harlquin = disinformation

02.11.2002 11:06

Well those of us who were on the streets on Sep 28 and Oct 31 know the truth: they were fucking successful events. Harelquin's remarks about the countryside march vs. Sep 28 are typical of the disinformation he is trying to spread. The countryside march was actually about 200,000 people with the figures pumped up by the organizers and accepted by the police. The Antiwar march on the 28th was a river of human beings stretching from the Embankment all around London to Hyde Park-- I've been on big demos before both here and in the US and this was the biggest, my cool and considered estimate is 5-600,000.
October 31 was a fantastic success-- it showed the national reach of the antiwar movement, and its capacity, even without actual bombing begins to stop business as usual. In 1963, when the US Congress voted the Tonkin resolution there was no anti war movement on the streets, neither in Gulf War I, nor Kosovo, nor Afghanistan were there thousands of people throughout the country taking action. The comparison with LSE in 68 is bullshit-- this is now the equivalent of 1963 and we are ready. You can bet the registers on the radar of the military planners

Ghost Buster

For fucks sake

02.11.2002 13:21

Has there ever been such wide spread direct action attempted in recent years? I don't think so. Here in Oxford I thought the day of action was well worth it. The local paper had a front page headline along the lines of 'Anti war protesters cause disruption'. The anti war march a few weeks ago was the bigger than the famous Grovsnor Square demo, yes that had a different social impact, but the war hasnt even started yet! The day of action helped to keep up the momentum. Why are people whinging. Isnt this typical of our consumer society, you want your coffee, bagel and your revolution to go. There will be no prepackacked, mass revolutionary movement devivered into your lap, if you belive this war is wrong then stand your ground and put the work in.

Marvin

disappointing

02.11.2002 13:48

problem is, as ive said before, the motivations of the main socialist groupings are a bit suspect; i deduce that they're not really trying to oppose Labour at all, merely shift slightly to the left thereof, and fill the shoes of Harold Wilson ("old Labour"), defunct years ago now. Trotsky once said it was rather pointless to keep talking about peace when wars are all around, indeed with the prospect of more and bigger to come.
in the square that evening, there were even people leafleting in support of Labour, perhaps unaware that it was their own party in power and preparing to endorse this war. when i questioned the irrationality of such a position, the leafleter began a highly subjective discussion in the style of how grim it was up north, dismissing the criticisms of 'southerners'. this spoke volumes; any concerns for the wider issues of the class struggle in britain or the new imperialist project overseas, are to be subordinated to the local, personal wishes of Labour party campaigners. personally, i doubt if a shepherd in the Kabul hills cares very much about whether we are from the north or south of the country !

doshfokwonfu

stepping up and stopping war

02.11.2002 18:09

Organising direct action against a war that has not started yet is not an easy task and we did very well. What the day and the build up to it achieved was 100's of events across the country. The many meetings and groups now organised in workplaces provide the basis for the mass workouts we must work for if they do start the war. It would have been great to have them now, but we can't make people strike against the war. At the same time 1000's of people did take various forms of direct actions. The Parliament square protest was brilliant with many of the best aspects of Mayday but more focussed. It did not have the publicity or the build up of Mayday but I think over 5000 people took part as a lot of people left outside downing street when it looked tense, and some people arrived late. We also kept the police on their toes, without descending into a fight we would have lost. I think the police although aggressive did not apply the sectioning or disperal tactics that would have ensured more media coverage. Although I left when we got back to the LSE, so I am not sure what happened then. They are scared how popular the movement is. In the US the previous week the protests were massive and included many good size protests in small towns and cities. And of course the movement does connect with the antiglobalisaton movement, the links are repeatedly made, with many more people now seeing the military as the armed wing of globalisation. This raises the stakes, it highlights the problems for reforming the system or creating autonomous spaces within it. At the same time the involvement of the more militant unions (RMT and FBU) in the antiwar movement makes the possibility of revolution more realistic.

James

Another point from me!

02.11.2002 18:31

I personally didn't notice any police numbers on display although i remember at one stage, when the march had just passed the Easy net cafe on the Strand that there was some pushing and shoving by a couple of officers. One of the guys i got chatting to, as we walked, was stopped from walking up one of the side streets, was pushed back by a copper and told to "go away" by the said officer when he complained about being pushed (funny how the police tried to keep ahead of the march and failed, particularly as we walked up the Strand!). No, all officers are supposed to display their numbers for members of the public. I'm going to write the newspapers and Sir John Stevens and i suggest you do likewise!
The civil disobidience? That's just the usual tough talk form those black bloc arseholes some of whom i spotted walking down Whitehall. The whole point of the evening was really to make a noise (the band was superb on the way back along Whitehall! a brilliant atmosphere!!!!!), get people on the streets, cause a organisational headache for the police and reap the publicity! I think, judging from Thursday, we managed to do that and not just in London! From i can gather from reading the reports on the IMC site and from some friends of mine were took part in action in other cities we achieved what we set out to achieve! I was impressed with Thursday and proud to have taken part!
The political aspect is complex. Obviously the nature of the 'day of action' brings into play a variety of other connecting issues. But there was a real spirit of unity on Thursday! On top of that the looks on the faces of the motorists at Trafalgar Square/The Mall turnoff was well worth it (including that cunt Mr Toad in his range rover!)!!! and those bastards on the left hand side of the Strand.

Just to note usually at these big demos you get handed a variety of leaflets and free newsletters from loads of different groups. I was given a leaflet by some girl from the Lib Dems against the war group! Now if that's not an indication of cross-political cooperation then i don't know what is!

Mr Toad is a cunt

Anything is better than nothing

05.11.2002 17:17

I attended the march in Brighton.What I saw was a bunch of people I didnt recognise, mostly students, all very enthusiastic and energetic. I have got used to seeing the same old Brighton anachist cronies at local marches, which I have always found a bit dishartening. This time I saw a whole load of new people, ready and willing to tak part in a very neccesary set of direct actions.

With the police being the bully boys they were, and assaulting a number peacefull attendees (gas and battons), I was expecting the usual media coverage (eg 10 people attended an anachist anti capitalism march where they punched in McDonnalds windows and were arrested) instead, the truth was told both in the normally biased Argus (3-500 people in anti war demo faced heavy handed police) and even more surprisingly on the local ITV news who even screened a fair interview an organiser!

I dont think this was in vain. depite blocking roads, most of the reactions to us were positive, the only negativity was a driver who suddenly appeared on a street where we had not been blocking the trafic, who tried to run people over (rather suspicious behaviour). I think that it has spurred people on down here to do more, and the reaction of the police (and its reporting) has brought it home to some how much the state wants to quosh the movement.

It is still early days, and right now it is a bit of a quiet time in Bush's push. I think we just have to keep pushing the other way, more will get involved as they realise the situation.

sqoo

Opinion poll following nationwide actions

05.11.2002 20:09

Support for attack on Iraq falls to new low

Support for military action against Iraq has slumped to its lowest since Tony Blair first seriously raised the prospect of war in August, according to the results of this week's Guardian/ICM tracker poll.
Approval for a military attack on Iraq has fallen six points, from 38% to 32%, in the past week demonstrating that support melts away as the prospect of war appears to recede.

Opposition to the war has, however, increased slightly over the past week - up one point to 41%. The main swing in opinion has been the move from those who support military action to those who are sceptical. The proportion of those who replied to ICM that they "don't know" whether military action is justified is up from 21% to 27%.

The weekly Guardian/ICM tracker poll, which started on August 23, shows a longer term trend of support for military action settling down at around one in three of the electorate, with approval peaking at 42% in the aftermath of the Bali nightclub bombing.

Opposition to the war started at 50% but has settled at around 40%, which it has maintained for three weeks.

The gender gap continues. Women split 43% to 27% against war, while opinion among men is more evenly divided, with 39% opposed to military action and 38% in favour.

While backing for the war remains "soft", this may be a lull before the storm as the UN is expected to agree its resolution on Iraq later this week.

The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, yesterday pledged zero tolerance to any lapse by Iraq in complying with a new UN weapons inspection regime, and said a decision to go to war could come within weeks.

In an interview with the Guardian and other international journalists, Mr Powell said Washington could make up its mind on whether to go to war before the 30-day deadline for Saddam Hussein to provide an exhaustive account of his military arsenal.

"We will know early on whether or not Iraq is intending to cooperate or not to cooperate," Mr Powell said. "It could be within a few weeks after the resolution is passed. If Iraq... starts to place all kinds of conditions on the UN resolution then we would know in a very short period of time that Iraq is not planning to cooperate and that would say something to the security council."

Guardian.co.uk

Harlequin is confused....

06.11.2002 10:15

Harlequin, now either there is more than one person posting as Harlequin or you are very confused, last week you put in comments about the green movement and signed it off with the Socialist Party website, so assume you are a Socialist (who supports Lenin as you said in an earlier posting).
But in the posting above you say you went to the Countryside Alliance march. Why are you supporting an organisation bank rolled by the aristocracy and whose support is mostly Conservative and on the march only 4% were manual workers?
Please explain....

Miss Point

UK Indymedia

What a washout the anti-war actions were!!!

Comments

I agree

Wrong time

I agree too

We are all in denial

I hate to agree with a such a whinger but...

polls

really?

Wrong time, Dan?

Wrong time?

Yes it was everywhere but it was shit

everyone is crap!

most boring demo I have ever been to

doesn't oil cause climate change?

doesn't oil cause climate change?

I think the problem was it was ona weekday!

Yesterday was great!

Yes the police were a disgrace on 31/10

Harlquin = disinformation

For fucks sake

disappointing

stepping up and stopping war

Another point from me!

Anything is better than nothing

Opinion poll following nationwide actions

Harlequin is confused....

Global IMC Network