Also, almost beyond belief, Secret documents have recently surfaced that show the U.S. Government has
been giving in excess of 4$ Billion (!) a year to the Israeli government. And (hard to believe!!!) is now poised to give an EXTRA 10 $ billion.

RE: 'MORE FUNDING'

Someone named Fred wrote in to say that it's
'beyond belief' that the U.S. Government has been giving roughly $4 Billion in aid per year to the Israeli government. (And by the way Fred: this information is easily available - you don't need mysterious 'Secret Documents to access the figures -- which in reality are closer to $3 Billion).

Well don't lose your head, Fred, but I'm going to tell you something that's even more 'beyond belief': the U.S. Government gives $2 Billion in aid per year to Egypt - a fertile breeding ground for Islamic Fundamentalism and anti-Americanism of the worst kind.

And did you know that the Palestinian Authority (unanimously denounced as a corrupt organisation by the Palestinians themselves) receives $66 million per month; $10 million from the UN and $55 million from the EU. The U.S. Government (despite the fact that Palestinians not only cheered and celebrated on 9/11, but were the the only Arabs to openly support Sadamn in the Gulf War), continue to give between $300-500 million a year to Yassar and his yes-men.

Now that's not only 'beyond belief' - it's suicidal.

The PA has an annual budget of $1 Billion dollars in aid. Do you ever wonder where all that money has gone - because it clearly hasn't trickled down to the Palestinians themselves.

And just because the news-wires reported yesterday that Israel might ask the U.S. for $10 Billion in aid, doesn't justify your premature pronouncement that:
"And (hard to believe!!!) the U.S is now poised to give an EXTRA 10 $ billion. "

First of all, Israel hasn't even asked for it yet, so how can American be poised to give it? Secondly, Israel muted that it might be condering a 'total' figure of $10 Billion, which mean an extra 7 Billion - not an 'EXTRA $10 Billion'.

I've never understood how people can condemn the U.S. for providing financial support to Israel, but saying nothing about the Arab/Muslim world's financial support for the Palestinians. If Sadamn can give gift vouchers to the proud parents of suicide-bombers, why shouldn't the United States be allowed to help support the only democracy and the only remotely sane nation in the Middle East?

Of course while America is always willing to dole out billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians and numerous other Arab clans that wish its destruction, god forbid that the Arabs would ever provide aid to any Western infidel nation - let alone Israel.

No...what's 'beyond belief' Fred is that there are still actually people like you out there who refuse to accept that there's nothing inherently noble about the 'noble savage', there's nothing peaceful about Islam, and if you hope to have the personal freedom and the advances in technology that allow you write your limp little letters on the internet, you better hope that America
and Israel join together in a stronger alliance than ever before.

Merry Christmas,

Peter



Also, almost beyond belief, Secret documents have recently surfaced that show the U.S. Government has
been giving in excess of 4$ Billion (!) a year to the Israeli government. And (hard to believe!!!) is now poised to give an EXTRA 10 $ billion.

As an American, non-Arab, non-moslem, I do not support Zionism, nor the State of Israel.

In the aftermath of 9/11, the Saudi Prince offered NYC a check for 10 Million dollars. Rudy Guilliani, then mayor, turned it down, so I wouldn't say Arab countries have offered no financial support to us. For the record, I did not see the state of Israel offering a ten million dollar check. As a matter of fact, several months later, our annual disbursement to Israel was delayed a bit, and loud squawking, hoots and hollers ensued. It seems that aid to Israel is done at the beginning of the year, unlike our other foreign aid disbursements which are done quarterly. A portion of the money is loaned back to the U.S. with interest. Furthermore, your aid figures regarding to U.S. aid to the Palestinian Authority is off-base. The aid is less than 100 million annually, and does not include military support.

Certainly Arab countries are helping us in other ways too. They are helping us in our war against terrorism. Israel is a democracy only in as much as Apartheid South Africa was a democracy. It has no provision for civil marriages, and citizenship is not afforded Palestinians in the W.Bank, and it has two sets of laws on the books: one for Israeli Jews, and one for Israeli non-Jewish Citizens. All the important civil functions: marriage, divorce and death/burial are controlled by the Rabbinate.

The increased aid to Israel will undoubtedly pass, in whole or part. As in the past, loan guarantees are routinely forgiven.

Our foreign policy has been hijacked by AIPAC (American Israeli Political Action Committee) and the Christian Far Right, of which our president belongs. Incidentally, by a bit of legerdemain, AIPAC is not listed as a political action committee, but rather “a lobby group” and as such does not have to list contributors. I leave this implication to your imagination, but I have my suspicions that in part U.S. tax dollars funneled back from Israel, fund what is generally regarded as the strongest lobby group in the U.S. Recently two congresspersons who crossed paths with AIPAC did not get reelected (Earl Hilliard and Cynthia McKinney).

Israel is not remotely sane, and nowhere near a true democracy. Islam is NOT a barbaric or evil religion as many seem to believe, its like saying democracy is barbaric and evil because there are facists who try to get in or something. There are a few extremist muslims, who want the end of America's imperialism and oppression, and the end of the Israeli state as it is, two demands which many people share, but they are prepared to harm civilians in it. We kill 1000s of innocent civilians when we invade other countries. The IRA targets civilians, does that make all Irish people evil? Israel is an evil nation in my opinion, im not saying that many Arab countries aren't, but to claim Israel is a friendly democracy is a complete lie. Also on claiming that Islam is evil, because there are some parts in it that say you should kill your oppressors or enemies or something like that, well when there is the Second Coming of Christ (or the first coming) Judaism/Christianity believes that he will set up an Empire, ruled by him, and he will lead this great Empire and kill all others not in it. So when the Messiah comes he's gonna set up an Empire in Israel and kill all the rest of us, which shouldn't be too hard considering how many nukes Israel's got.

there are no innocent Israeli citizens

This is BEFORE any Palestinian suicide bombing in infitada II!

Deaths in Sept., 2000: Palestinian 19 ; Israeli 1
Deaths in Oct., 2000: Palestinian 130; Israeli 11

(over 1/3 of Palestinian deaths are minors)

www.btselem.org

To define Islam as an evil religion because of the acts of some radical fundamentalists is equivalent to portraying all Christians as evil because of the acts of some radical Christian fundamentalists in America, for example those who kill doctors who work at abortion clinics.
And speaking of Israel - it has weapons of mass destruction including nuclear weapons, and has been breaking UN resolutions for years, as well as invading neighbouring countries and violating the human rights of its citizens. Send in the weapons inspectors!

..is whether it bears the fingerprint of al Qaida or Mossad

I beleive religion is fundamentally wrong, in that it is a form of thought control, and increasingly a scapegoat for extremism.
Be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Jewdaism as a form of represion, as it usually is, religion is immoral.

Earlier on in this lively debate, someone mentioned that Israel, was to receive an amount close to $10 billion in aid from the US.

I find this interesting, and just wonder where the information is from?

Peter mentioned that the palestinians were cheering in the streets upon learning of the disaster of 911, peter are you american?

I learned shortly after watching the scenes of people celebrating in palestine, that the footage used was actually old footage, nothing to do with 9-11 and was blatant propaganda by us intelligance and media, although I can't confirm this.

I have to say peter, I think you a little on the pro-american side of ignorant, your countries admin are pretty muich the biggest threat to humanity, in the history of humanity. To back them up is short sighted, if not worse.

Throughout modern history your country's intelligence services have interefered with democracies all over the world, in the name of U.S. interests, and fort benning in California's WHISC (western hemispheric institute of security co-operation) recommend among other things blackmail, extortian, kidnapping of victims families, in order to get the information they want.

Your country is evil.
Go hit the books and you will learn my child.

Amazing. Just one little letter and look at the outpouring of ignorance, racism, and cyber-bile that I can bring forth from the lunatic liberal fringe.

Where to begin? Let’s start with Vince.

My point about financial aid was that while America is willing to give support even to its enemies, the wealthy Arab nations are only willing to give to their allies. (In fact, the Arab nations have been notoriously delinquent in actually sending the funds that they have pledged). The fact that the only example of Arab charity to the West you can cite is the $10 million offer from the Saudi Prince to NYC undermines your argument before you’ve even begun. Clearly the ‘charitable’ gesture was a desperate bit of PR damage control by the Saudis who had just discovered that 15 of the 19 hijackers were home grown talent. Guilliani rejected the offer (which was really just pocket change to the Prince) because it was prefaced with an aggressive condemnation of America’s Mid-East policies. The Prince was basically giving with one hand and slapping with the other and Guilliani was absolutely right to decline the offer. (The fact that Israel hasn’t made financial donations to USA is as irrelevant as the fact that the Palestinians haven’t made financial donations to Saudi Arabia).

The fact that Arab countries ‘are helping us in our war on terrorism’ is as unimpressive as it is unsubstantiated. (And who are you referring to exactly: Saudi Arabia who are still funding Al Queda? Syria, who still insist on officially sheltering Hezoballah?) Praising a country for helping to combat the slaughter of innocent civilians is like praising a policeman for stopping a rape in progress. It’s not a moral decision – it’s a moral duty. I’m sorry but no points rewarded to the Arab side on that point.

As far as your knee-jerk analogy between Apartheid South Africa and Israel, all I can say is that you’re deliberately twisting the truth in a most irresponsible fashion. The ‘facts’, if you can bear to face them, are this:

- 18 percent (1.1 million of 6.3 million) of Israel's population is non- Jewish. There are 945,000 Muslims and 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze living in Israel

- Arabs in Israel have equal-voting rights (something that Blacks in South Africa didn’t have), in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 10 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's Consul-General in Atlanta. Ariel Sharon's cabinet includes the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who serves as a minister without portfolio. The Knesset recently welcomed its first openly gay member.

- Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attended Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.

- Israeli Arabs have the right to live and work anywhere in the country, again, something that was never the case for black South Africans.

- Arab citizens of Israel are not required to serve in the military. Israel is sensitive enough not to require Arabs to take up arms against other Muslims. Even in the U.S. being a Muslim would not defer you from serving in Afghanistan or the Gulf and taking up arms against other Muslims - but if a Muslim was a citizen of Israel he would not be forced to do something he may not want to do. This is a greater right than he has in the U.S. or anywhere else.

Of course you choose to ignore this undeniable proof a democratic system that is inclusive of all its citizens, including Arabs – and the likes of which can be found nowhere else in the Mid-East, and instead focus solely on the apparent lack of rights granted to Palestinians in the West Bank. Well yes Vince; at this point in history I suppose Israel is not prepared to extend voting rights or provide health benefits to people who are openly calling for their total annihilation. Is that really so surprising? Is it not possible that you judge Israel with a heightened moral and ethical criteria that you apply to no other nation on earth?

Even that perennial Israel-basher Robert Fisk recently wrote an article praising the openness and honesty of the Israeli press:

"Thank God, I often say, for the Israeli press. For where else will you find the sort of courageous condemnation of Israel's cruel and brutal treatment of the Palestinians?"

It’s not pretty, but it’s proof of a democratic tolerance that you won’t find in any Islamic country.

In the meantime, nobody’s told me where Arafat has infested all those billions designated for his Palestinians brothers and sisters.

Who is next? Jobo.

Tell me Jobo; have you or any of your little Islamo-apologist friends ever actually read the Koran? I sincerely doubt it, because if you had you wouldn’t be gushing forth with so many inane analogies, all intended to defend something that is clearly guilty. I suggest we forget about the past; forget about the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Crusades, the Holocaust, the IRA – let’s forget about everything except what’s happened in just the past year:


1. Bali: Death and destruction with a disco beat.
2. Chechnya: theatrical invasion in Moscow.
3. The Philippines: terrorism with a more tropical feel.
4. Pakistan: murders in the cathedral.
5. Kashmir; only the Muslims could drive Hindus to homicide.
6. Yemen: From the USS Cole to the French Freighter.
7. Happy New Year: Muslim maniac strikes at the EL AL ticket desk in Los Angeles.
8. The Shoe-Bomber; as evil as he was inept.
9.Stoned Again: strict Islamic codes that called for the stoning of the Nigerian 'adulteress'.
10.Naughty Girls: strict Islamic codes that trapped Saudi schoolgirls in a burning building.
11. Nigeria Part 2: When one line from a second rate journalist can inspire the random torching of Christian churches and Christian neighbours, you’ve got to wonder about that ‘religion of peace’ claim.
12. Kenya: More evil, but fortunately, more ineptitude.

We won’t even mention 9/11…..

All of these acts were committed in the name of Islam. This represents more than a ‘few extremists Muslims’. Can you find anything near that number of examples of religiously inspired acts of aggression emanating from Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists in the past year? Of course not. So how long do you want to play the moral equivalency and moral relativism game? When will you acknowledge – even to a minor degree – that there is perhaps something wrong in the house of Islam, and that all the woes of the Muslim world are not the result of Western culture?

Next is one of my favourites, ‘Samavro’, who wrote in with that old chestnut of a conversation opener: ‘There are no innocent Israeli citizens’. Obviously the comment is too pathetic to even waste my time on, but what I find fascinating is that all of you freedom-fighters out there; those who were so concerned that I might have
been insensitive by not distinguishing between Islamic extremists and Islam in general – not one of you objected to such a sweeping, racist, and hateful condemnation as ‘There are no innocent Israeli citizens’.

At least I know who I’m dealing with….

Joe…you’re next.

When people distort facts the way you do I can never tell whether they’re evil or just ignorant. Please write in to let me know. Here is the truth about casualties since the ‘Intifada’ began:

The following is based on the official fatality figures presented in the international media up until 29 August 2002:

603 Israelis killed, compared to 1596 Palestinians.

But such numbers hide as much as they reveal: They lump combatants in with non-combatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian "collaborators" murdered by their own compatriots (roughly 150), as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian non-combatants killed by Israel, compared to 471 Israeli non-combatants killed by Palestinians. While Israelis account for 27 percent of the total fatalities as generally reported, they represent 43 percent of these non-combatant victims.

While Israeli fatalities in the al-Aqsa conflict have consisted of 80 percent non-combatants (and over 80 percent before the substantial IDF casualties suffered during the Jenin incursion of April 2002), Palestinian fatalities have consisted of more combatants than non-combatants. The proportion of combatants among Palestinians killed has increased significantly over time, from around 40 percent to its current value of 54 percent

The proportion of females among Israeli fatalities was relatively low in the early months of the conflict, and gradually rose to a level of around 30 percent; since June 2001, this proportion has remained fairly stable. Palestinian fatalities, in contrast, have been consistently and overwhelmingly (over 95 percent) male

In absolute terms, many more Israeli females have been killed than Palestinian females. If we include combatants and fatalities for whom responsibility is unclear, 70 Palestinian females have been killed; the corresponding Israeli figure is 190.

Think about it Joe; every time you see or hear a news report about Palestinian fatalities, you’re told that ‘Israeli troops killed x amount of Palestinians’, or ‘Palestinians killed by Israeli army helicopters’. The Israelis are always soldiers wielding weapons, the Palestinians are always innocent citizens, just caught in the crossfire. If you think the Israelis are guilty that’s one thing; but please don’t pretend that the Palestinians are innocent.

As far as the number of children killed…. it’s truly a tragedy…But as the father of a three year old girl, I can only suggest that one of the best ways to protect your children is to resist from shoving them into the street during a gun battle. Forget the martyr bull-shit, forget the fact that Sadamn or the Saudis might send you a gift-certificate- and think only of how precious your child’s life is. If you’re a parent that really wants to see some stones thrown pointlessly at tanks in the hopes of appearing on CNN, then I suggest you do it yourself for a change.

Last but not least, Andy. Firstly, a little question: was your misspelling of Judaism as ‘Jewdaism’ an intentional (albeit ineffective) attempt at racial mudslinging, or just tangible proof of your otherwise blatant ignorance.

Yes Andy Pandy, there was an initial attempt to discredit the footage of Palestinians celebrating after 9/11. But this desperate attempt to discredit was quickly discredited, and supplemented with numerous other examples of morbid Muslim celebrations. We’ve seen Palestinians cheering in the streets and passing out candy after the most deadly suicide-bombings in Israel. We’ve seen Palestinians cheering as the drag the headless bodies of accused (and convicted without trial) conspirators. We’ve seen hundreds of thousands of Iranians and Iraqis marching in the streets chanting ‘Death to America’ and burning the American flag. We’ve seen British Muslim Clerics and their followers celebrating the anniversary of 9/11 by declaring it as ‘A Towering Day in History’. When the leading Indonesian Muslim Cleric was asked – after the Bali bombing – if he had any words for the victims’ families, he responded: ‘Yes; convert to Islam as soon as possible’.

So why can’t you just accept that the majority of the Muslim world actually might take pleasure in the suffering of Western, democratic nations – especially America?

Of course the Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11. As the man who wrote the sentence; ‘America is the biggest threat to humanity in the history of humanity’ how can you doubt that the collapse of the Twin Towers might bring a little smile to anti-Westerners everywhere.

You, Andy Pandy, like all the rest of the moronic mob that roams this site, have been trigger-happy when it comes to denouncing the unforgivable evils of America and Israel. So I’m just curious: what people, places, or belief systems do you all hold up as a moral model for Western infidels like myself?

That’s it for now, and in the immortal words of Lenny Bruce: I’d like to piss on each and every one of you.

Cheers

Peter