Feb 15th

autonomous actions?

11.02.2003 16:24

Yep, gotta show anger. There's plenty o ways to escape the boredom of the sheepherding march. Like splitting away, or meeting someplace else with some friends and walking down a different street with banners, noise, drums etc - other people will soon join in. With up to (or more than?) a million of us, and less police than on an average Mayday, the potentials for really demonstrating are huge.

Krop

Anger?

11.02.2003 16:30

Very clever- so rather than having the bigget expression of public dissent in a decade we have a riot.
The elderly and those with young children there on the day will really appriciate that.

Comments like these are what leads to newspaper reports of "threats of violence" on the 15th which will help to keep people away.

have you ever considered a job with MI5? they always need people like you to spread a bit of fear.

Seriously- they do actually employ people to incite riots etc so as they can further criminalise dissent.

think about it.

If you are for real why not express you anger on your own on say Feb 14th,16th,17th,18th etc

or do you need the crowds for confidence?

tom

ground control to major tom

11.02.2003 16:48

Tom: 1) anger is not a riot, 2) a riot seems unlikely and counter-productive 3) you could be accused of being MI5 yourself.

Instead, anger can manifest as all sorts of things, but not marching around - constrained and herded - by barriers and stewards; civil disobedience isn't a riot is it? Or would you prefer the march to be imprisoned by barriers and lacking in conviction? That might answer my third point above.

Krop

Tom has your number

11.02.2003 17:07

Tom has your guys number.

This will be a peaceful and joyful demonstration. Praise him on the High Sounding Cymbals! Praise him on the Harp!

CthruSpex

link o war

11.02.2003 17:07

http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=52253

Krop

Riots or teddy bears picn

11.02.2003 17:25

who hopes "this demo will make the poll tax demo of '90 look like a teddy's bear picnic?"

Now if I remember correctly the 'poll tax demo' was more or less a riot, and the above poster wants to make that "look like a teddy bears picnic" so what conclusion am i supposed to draw?

I also draw your attention to the post a couple below this about PSY OP's- I think the tanks are probably there to be shipped to the Gulf- but apart from that I think he/she has a point

"The tanks at Heathrow, the military presence in and around London, the threats of terrorism, the rumours of confrontation on Saturday are all part of a Psy-Op against the antiwar movement in general, and February 15 in particular"

tom

as easy as 1. 2. 3.

11.02.2003 17:41

1. anger is not a riot but anyone who hopes "this demo will make the poll tax demo of '90 look like a teddy's bear picnic?"
IS asking for a riot- if I remember correctly the 'poll tax demo' was more or less a riot, and the above poster wants to make that "look like a teddy bears picnic" so what conclusion am i supposed to draw?

2. A riot seems unlikely and counter productive- agreed, that was the point of my orginal comment- to keep it that way.

3.Go ahead accuse me - i'll refute it

PS
I'm all for "not marching around - constrained and herded" (last time i had a sign saying 'obediently follow the police - that way we will change the world'{irony!})
But i intend to do so with a smile on my face- i also try to engage police rather than confront them (most of the time)

I also draw your attention to the post a couple below this about PSY OP's- I think the tanks are probably there to be shipped to the Gulf- but apart from that I think he/she has a point

"The tanks at Heathrow, the military presence in and around London, the threats of terrorism, the rumours of confrontation on Saturday are all part of a Psy-Op against the antiwar movement in general, and February 15 in particular"

Tom

on the subject of placards / slogans

11.02.2003 18:59

I just found these suggestions on the net:-

This sign is illegal

This is not a media stunt

This message cannot be spun

This sign will not be shown on TV

I am not a terrorist

This warning will go unheeded

(I like them anyway)

tom

the demo

11.02.2003 19:09

IF anybody remembers the sept 28th demo some of us lead(around 30,000) by fife and edinburgh marchers broke away from the main march and wandered up oxford street amongst other streets blocking traffic with great support from onlookers(apart from one guy who spat on me) ,bus drivers set there alarms off in support guys on building sites took placards and stuck them on scaffolding, it was peaceful and great fun and the police didnt have a clue what to do.
yes the troops have been moved into incite fear and try and divide the anti war movement but the movement is to big and they wont.Here in fife the demand is amazing about 10x the demand from the last demo we might in fact run out of buses to hire.(if you are in fife get booking now its a lot cheaper than going by train and more fun)

engelbert

11.02.2003 21:50

The poll tax protest had every right to be a riot, to stop the overlords raping the planet - anger? I'm screwin'

To add insult to injury, an unjust war will be declared on St. Valentine's Day.

All roads lead to London. Besiege the City.

Peace Corps

My anger brought me here.

11.02.2003 22:19

The government escalates a climate of tension and fear,
its agents generate conflicts between groups with differing ideas/methods, smears direct action/property damage as 'violent', the police cause then riots and mayhem, the liberals and moderates attack the most vocal proponents of direct action- who pick up the pieces and go back to doing much work for the creative autonomous side of the anti-war effort.

If we are effective- pacifist or not, we will be attacked by the governments thugs. there is no democracy here. no justice. I will not attack those anarchists who take actions i could not do myself, i wish them the best of luck, but be safe and choose good targets, think of the safty of those around you, and look after each other, because the UK government has declared you its enemy.

For Peace + Courage between all people and faiths.

raaji

This demo has every right to be a riot!

12.02.2003 08:27

Lets face it peaceful A to B marches, human body shields going to Iraq, petitions, die ins in Whitehall, and Lobbies of Parliament are not going to stop wars!!!! The only thing that will make any impact on helping to stop the war machine is if people use some direct action against the symbols of that war machine ie military recruitment offices and the American Embassy!

Here is an example - our governments in the use of war against Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries are as bad as terrorists themselves they are using extreme, brutal violence against largley defenceless people! Now how do you reason with terrorists - politley petition them and show your disaproval at their actions through mass public shows of disaproval or do you take them on and give them what they deserve as they are nothing but murderers!

Harlequin

which side are you on harliquin?

12.02.2003 10:59

so 'terrorists' only respond to violence?
maybe you should look for a job in the current administration-

tom

again...

12.02.2003 11:24

As I've said before, we're here to stop GENOCIDE. A few baton charges or arrests (not that I'm condoning) are nothing compared to the estimated deaths of 80,000 people. In all honesty, if there were a choice of 40,000 people dying to prevent the deaths of 80,000 then that would make moral sense - unless you value 'your own' more than 'others'. We're all human for fucks sake. More realistically, a few arrests to stop the deaths of 80,000 is nothing.

Krop

It's not easy or quick - sorry

12.02.2003 12:11

Krop I appreciate your point and agree that IF it was a choice between having a riot and stopping the war OR having a peaceful demonstration and not stopping the war then it would make good sense and you could count me in.
However I do not believe that faced with a rampaging mob in London Tony is suddenly going to see the error of his ways and call his mate Bu$h to call the whole thing off.
Even if he did, do you really imagine that Bu$h is going to say "OK then Tony mate, I'll call the troops home- I can see this riot is a bit inconvenient"
Bush does not give a shit about anything but his own re-election (and Oil).
The reality is that we are not going to stop this war- it's already planned and more importantly paid for.
We are working to stop the war on N Korea, Iran, etc…………
What is interesting is that many people have realised that our "democracy" is a sham and that people are looking for ways to build alternative social structures. If we can work together to create alternatives then there is a real opportunity for change.
What we cannot do is "impose" anarchism or any other "ism" onto an unwilling population and expect it to work- and let's face it, the reality is, and most of the population are fairly rightwing and reactionary.
This is the real challenge- to educate the rightwingers.
The revolution will not be Feb 15th and the state has infinitely more muscle that any rag bag group of anarchists.
Working for social change is a slow process, there is no quick fix solution.

Having said that, if you genuinely want to take direct action to damage the war machine then I understand and respect that, but why Feb 15th?
Why not go out to some US military bases at the dead night?
on the 14th, 16th, or any other day?
Why not make the 15th the one and only day that you dont act violently towards the state?

Tom

Because they are cowards

12.02.2003 14:32

The reason they want to do it on Feb 15th is that they are cowards and need a big crowd to hide in. I realise they are too thick to understand the damage they will do to the movement as a whole. But you'd have thought they could see the obvious inconsistency in their own arguments - they are not prepared to take responsibility for their own actions which contradicts their claimed 'anarchist' viewpoints.

Look at all the other posts on here where they are organising themselves into little 'blocs' with strictly defined guidelines for who can join in. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. They pretend they want a new society with equality and peace but if you analyse their pronouncements and actions they are just more of the same. Organising themselves into elite groups and marking themselves out as better than everyone else, putting others in harms way while looking after themselves. Now who does that remind you of?

Arseholes.

Nazgul

not cowards

12.02.2003 15:13

I disagree- I don’t think you can call anyone who is prepared to risk personal harm for the sake of others and without remuneration a coward.
I don’t think they are thick either.
I don’t think they are organising themselves as elite groups either.
I do think that many wanabe revolutionaries fail to grasp is that British society is a lumbering old beast and that 'disgusted of Tunbridge wells' wont be joining any non hierarchical collectives anytime soon.
It's not good enough to surround yourself with radicals and then to conclude that everyone is a radical- In any new society we need to have room for those who are currently in the police, Tories and Sun readers- anything else and we are just new totalitarians.
To all those on the March good luck - and look out for those around you.

Tom

avoid the false media stereotypes.

12.02.2003 16:18

Violence-direct action -rioting- Smear tactics in the run up to war- if you are anti-war, well you must be a rioter. If not- you better tell us where those pesky anarchists are right now or we'll smear you with the same shitty stick.

The 'violence-non violence' debate is a trojan horse meant to divide us. Pro-anti- can we just get on with concentrating on stopping this war!

The Police are equipped with full protection in any public order situation, these are the people who are trained and clothed for mayhem and violence.

hyyaukx

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