Ulla Roder Confirms Leuchars Tornado "Out of Action"

Well done!

12.03.2003 22:18

Well done Ulla!

Hopefully the first of many Ploughshares actions to stop this war....from people much braver than I, I must admit.

Matt

Matt S

I will not remain in silence...

12.03.2003 22:55

Reminds me of the song "With my Hammer" by Seize the Day...

http://www.seizetheday.org/hammer.htm

no-war
Homepage: http://www.seizetheday.org/hammer.htm

Oh grand job. A plane that won't be dropping bombs on Iraq! How marvellous. Only thing is, it never could have - Leuchars is a FIGHTER base not a BOMBER base. The only Tornados there are fighters and have no capability whatosever to carry bombs. RAF Tornado fighters have never so much as fired a shot in anger against the Iraqis and probably never will.

Yet another utterly pointless act of vandalism from a total idiot. Let's hope after she gets out of jail for this crime she is deported back to her own country.

bobthecob

the ''tornado'' is the the MRCA

13.03.2003 15:35

if the aircraft in question is actually a tornado, then it is specifically designed to act in a variety of roles, hence its original title, the MRCA, (Multi- Role Combat Aircraft) which means it is perfectly able to function as a bomber, apart from this particlar wreck, of course.. Im surprised you (bobthecob) didnt know that.

in reply to 'bobthecob'

Leuchars Tornado F.3 damaged

13.03.2003 19:01

The sooner the same signs as seen at US bases in the States go up around Military installations in the UK, the better,i.e. "Deadly Force is Authorised" Once 1 or 2 of these stupid people have a neat little hole in their forehead for their troubles the better. And the Tornado F.3 is not equipped to carry bombs, only air-to-air missiles.

FODACDEN

MRCA?

13.03.2003 19:05

The Tornado family is multi role however the F3 model at Leuchars does not have the physical or electrical hardware needed to carry freefall munitions, what you called bombs.

You're confusing this model of the Tornado with the GR1 and GR4, a totally different version of the airframe.

Tonka

protest hobbyist

13.03.2003 20:19

What nonsense..won't do a single piece of good for the poor buggers in Iraq...the B52s and B2s are presumably out of range of the magic hammer. This sort of crap is about making that Danish lady feel good and get noticed as much as giving a toss about anyone else..she's got her war story
to tell and a lot of backslaps ahead of her at the next day out. Ego massage,nothing more.

brian

Quid pro quo

13.03.2003 20:38

I'd bail her on condition that she go and do exactly the same in an Iraqi miltary installation. That will surely relieve the British taxpayer of any further burden of this harridan.

Charles

soloutions

14.03.2003 08:23

Do you really think bombing yet another third world country is going to help anyone apart from the warmongers on both sides? The war should be opposed wherever possible. Well done that woman!

mark

fighter or bomber, same thing really

14.03.2003 15:12

since WWII, its been clear that the distinction between fighter and light bomber, or cargo-plane and heavy bomber, is not absolute, and can be adapted with little effort. all you ''airplane monthly'' freaks forget that bomber, cargo, or fighter, are all part of the same war, and whatever type of plane ulla put out of order, well done indeed !

bye bye

Tornado F3

15.03.2003 19:24

hmm. very brave but very misquided methinks. The Tornado F3 is a fighter plane. it cannot drop bombs, only fire air to air missiles. They're probably the only type of jetfigher that the RAF should actually have, their only use is the defense of this country.

That said its an easy mistake to make and certainly a very brave action and a symbolic one. perhaps a better target would have been the Tonrnado GR4s at Marham and Lossiemouth. Details are on the RAF web site, which is easy to find.

To FOCACDEN who said he wanted to see protesters shot, you are a twat. if you support the war so strongly join the army and go fight it, and we'll wait for you to not come back.

Love Jay

Jason Juliet

useful !

15.03.2003 20:57

I believe that any act of sabotage against war is usefull.
The fact that so many people are getting all het up about this shows that the symbolic value outshines the actual material one...
keep at it!

Mockturtle

What the planes do is irrelevant

16.03.2003 01:56

It's completely fucking irrelevant what the fucking planes can do! The point is it is an act of symbolism in defiance of this unjust and illegal war. A David vs Goliath symbol meaning we the people of the world who this war is being committed against can stand up and defeat those corrupt leaders of the world, and corporations that are waging this war against us, with just hammers.
What this woman did is an act of bravery no soldier could ever muster in his pea brained mind, sheeplike follow the leader mind. They only act within "authority's" approval, this woman acted against it. Her valiant efforts against the evil minions that wish to murder innocent civilians (you know US. We the People, Citizens of the United States and other nations with our tax dollars that they stole from us and misappropriated to make themselves even richer) should be rewarded.
These idiot morons, these house slaves, who bend over like servient dogs and lick the asses of their masters who are traitors to their countrymen and women in their support of this war and criticism of the brave citizens like this woman should meet the same fate as the nazis.

An American

Heroic Women

16.03.2003 02:16

All I have to say is, when my little girl grows up and asks me to tell her some women who were heros (heroines) for a paper she has to write I am going to tell her Joan of Arc, DawAung San Su Kyi (who has successfully waged a resistance movement against the US backed military dictatorship occupying Burma (Myanmar), or this great woman.

Proud Father

doesn't help anti-war movement

16.03.2003 06:41

Protest should be about convincing people with facts and appeals to reason. This act will not change anyone's views on the conflict, it will have zero impact on the practical operations of any war. The only real outcome of this action will be that the woman involved in the destruction of this airplane will most likely spend a few years in prison.

agnostic

Ineffectual

16.03.2003 06:43

how does this help convince anyone in power not to go to war?

agnostic

BRAVA

16.03.2003 09:11

This was a brave action. We can hit all the american and british terrorist targets by any mean. This is an act of heroism.

CHRIS FROM ATHENS,GR

Technical Quibbles

16.03.2003 09:34

I just read on the Janes defence website that the Tornado F3 is being or is going to be adapted for an air defence suppression role ie. shooting radar homing missiles at anti-aircraft missile batteries, something Britain and the US have been very busy doing in the Iraqi "no fly zones" for the last 12 years. So technically a warplane that might bomb Iraq has been put out of action. But lets be serious. Real an action as destroying a single warplane is, it is still a symbolic action, and a very powerful one at that. Good work

Geoff Farrell
mail e-mail: lanugo@netidea.com

more news !

16.03.2003 13:33

Press Release: 14th March 2003

Thirty B52 Support Vehicles Disabled at RAF Fairford

Last night at RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire two Trident Ploughshares activists disabled no less than thirty vehicles which provide essential support to the US B52 bombers stationed there.

Freelance writer Margaret Jones (53), from Bristol, and Quaker activist Paul Milling (58), from Birmingham, planned to stick labels onto all the vehicles to warn they had been tampered with. They carried with them bags of sugar to contaminate the fuel, grinding paste and treacle to add to the oil systems, spikes to puncture the tyres, and crowbars & hammers to damage the vehicles. They reasoned the bombers would be very closely guarded but guessed the “Achilles Heel” might be the fleet of specialist support vehicles which are used to service, refuel, and load bombs onto the aircraft. The bombers have been recently moved to the Gloucestershire base and in the event of war will be used to “carpet-bomb” Iraq. Last night a group of the aircraft took off from RAF Fairford on an exercise and were refuelled in the air over Northumberland.

In a phone call from Stroud Police Station early this morning Margaret Jones said: “We managed to carry out our planned action very successfully. We evaded the police patrols, cut through the perimeter fence, and got into the garages which were unguarded. We managed to disable some thirty vehicles. With our politicians out of democratic control it is up to ordinary citizens to stop the war machine. I could not bear the thought of these bombers taking off from our country, flying thousands of miles to Iraq, and dropping their cargoes of death on ordinary people. We felt we personally had to do what we could to stop them.”

The spectacular disarmament action comes just three days after Trident Ploughshares activist Ulla Roder inflicted severe damage, estimated in millions of pounds, to a Tornado jet at RAF Leuchars in Fife.

mayler

well done. thats one plane that wont bombing

17.03.2003 01:16

well done lady.

at least we have one less plane that
will be bombing, murdering, and killing
iraqi woman and children.

snail

Thank you for your sacrifice!

17.03.2003 04:17

This woman has made an awesome and inspiring sacrifice. Beating swords into plowshares. I wish I could help her do the time. This kind of action inspires the sane among us and helps us to keep going during this time of almost unbearable grief.

Many people in the US feel helpless while our government engages in a ruthless and immoral attack on another country. I feel unbearable sorrow and anger. I don't know how I can continue. But knowing that there are people with such strong convictions, who are willing to sacrifice so much of themselves to change the world around gives me a little more hope.

Let us all make sure and support this brave person. Write letters and tell your friends!

Jeff

okay...

17.03.2003 05:41

Looks like maybe i was wrong. I have had it confirmed about the radar surpression role. not sure it was exactly the right thing to do but certainly very brave. i'm totally unsure about this issue. All i know is were all opposed to the war and on the same side

Love jay

Jason Juliet

Thoughtful Action!

17.03.2003 12:09

Gee some of you British Trolls sure are ignorant of your own countries history! (Editor's note: toll comments now hidden)

Good for Ulla for wreaking the killing plane!

Ploughshares is an inspiring group, they have accomplished many signifigant and sucessful direct actions such as this against various killing organisations (the military)

These airplanes are phenominally expensive and the damage is very likely to run in the hundreds of thousands of pounds if not millions.

The purpose of direct action is of course to do something directly against or for a problem. It is not about symbolism primarily though of course that is a factor which you can't escape.

The song with my hammer by seize the day is more than just a little bit similar to this incident. The song details a peaceful direct action by a group of several women against a similar fighter plane destined to bomb East Timorese people under Indonesian Occupation. Of course selling arms to Indonesia illegally occupying East Timor is something that your government should not have been doing anyway but of course the law is different from the law in this type of situation where profit and empire are concerned. There was previous to the destruction of the plane of course years of other various actions of the same issue, letters, speeches, marches, fundraising, blockades etc etc. The reason for destructing property direct action should be obvious, it is a step taken after other more legal and less desperate actions have been exhausted.

The seize the day song details how these women destroyed very peacefully this killing machine. They had to call the police on themselves after they were done because of course the super high tech always alert security that our military provides hadn't actually noticed them. [conspiracy theorists say that it was unbelivable that the USA let down its guard on september 11th, they fail to see the reality of how stupid the military mind is - the best solution for the military to deal with someone is to kill them - they really are that inept!]

And after fighting a long court battle after being arrested these women actually won and charges were dropped. Unusually they were able to argue [usually a court won't listen to such arguements] that the killing jet was defying international law and UN resolutions banning military support for the illegal occupation of East Timor. They argued they were as citizens committing a lesser crime [damage to property, tresspassing] to prevent a greater crime [perpetuating mass killing and war crime in East Timor] They were right and surprisingly the judge agreed.

This case is extremely similar given the breif summary I have read. I think even the Ploughshares group may even be connected to the other group. As well the usual reactionary apologists with their excuses made them that the planes were not really evil military jets [they said they were trainers not possible to use against innocent civillians - yes, that is why they bought those military gets with guns and missiles, to train and educate!] or that this was some kind of angry badly planned and violent action [denying the extensive year planning and actual documentation of the events] Of course the facts speack otherwise but there are facts and then there are facts. Of course nowadays the facts of requiring UN justification under international law (a legal system set up to serve the needs of postwar USA and UK especially) to go to war are irrelevant to our 'leaders' and war is the only answer allowed.

War is insane. Ulla and the hundreds and thousands of people standing up against war are brave and heroic.

Solidarity from Vancouver BC, Unceded Coast Salish Territory!

rusl from Canada
Homepage: http://www.bikesexual.org

Well done!

17.03.2003 13:41

Thank you Ulla! If more people would do this, there would be no chance for the monsters to commit the mass murders they call ``war''. The way to work for peace is to make war *impossible*.

Harq al-Ada

The New Terrorists

18.03.2003 21:26

It has disturbed me lately going through the "peace" websites that such groups are engaging in what could easily be called terrorsit activity to further their "cause." What gets me more is the nerve that they have to call their actions "non-violent and peaceful" when such actions truly are not. Purposefully sabotaging a military aircraft built at public expense is non-violent? Cutting holes in fences and trespassing onto military property is peaceful and non-criminal? NOT! These actions, and others I have been seeing on the web, are simple terroristic activities for a "cause" which is nothing less than terrorism. Damaging military property, private property, etc...are forms of illegal activity and I'm glad that people are rightly jailed and imprisoned for such acts. Another poster here left a remark about Use of Deadly Force Authorized...which is true, especially on U.S. bases....in this time of near war the balls to trespass onto a military installation and sabotage military vehicles or property is very dangerous to the individual...and soon some could find themselves justly shot for their stupdity. Look at the girl who was standing in front of a bull-dozer in Israel...in a combat zone where she did not belong...to MAKE the Israeli's bow down to HER way of thinking....wrong..what happened...you know. One who lives and works for peace can NOT engage in such criminal activity like sabotaging military property...it's dangerous at the very least and is sign of the new terrorist threats that will be taken very seriously by government. Stay assembling in peacful manners...shout all you want...carry your signs...but do not sabotage government property....you are branding yourself and your peace movement as the new terrorists that the world needs to watch out for and protect themselves against. For one, I would'nt be surprised if very soon that people who are arrested for damaging (sabotaging) military aircraft or other property see very STIFF prison terms of at least 20 years with no parole. Watch it...you're treading on very dangerous ground and could land in prison with a large portion of your life locked away...you freedom stripped from you....all for your "cause." Stay peaceful people...stay peaceful.

GriffinWolf
mail e-mail: griffinwolf@hotmail.com

why war despite motivations is good for Iraq

18.03.2003 21:47

Does Iraq post a threat to the United States or any European nation? no. Can Saddam even threaten the nations around him? Not really. What Saddam can and does do is oppress a nation of over 20 million individuals. He is responsible for the murder of well over a million people during his reign. The high estimates, in fact the highest estimates as far as civilian casualties that I have seen are between 50 and 100,000 lives. In truth these estimates are EXTREMELY high. But let us assume for a moment that they are accurate. I mourn for those people and pray that the actual number be as low as possible. However if we remove an individual that kills his own people at a rate of 20 thousand a year we're actually saving more Iraqi lives over the long run. That does sound callous but unfortunately this is a callous world. Additionally removing Saddam will result in a removal of the economic sanctions placed upon Iraq, improving the standard of living for everyone else in the country. In addition to the increased standard of living, the fact that the Iraqi citizens will be able to walk the streets and sleep at night without the fear of being abducted and meeting an untimely death or similarly displeasing torture, is reason itself for removing saddam. We know as a matter of fact that Saddam has used chemical and biological weapons on his own people in the past. It is a far greater sin to stand on the side of apathy and allow a tyrant to destroy a people's innocence than to stand firm on the side of justice and risk personal injury. All of you are welcome to bash the "greedy" motives of the US and UK, but whether their hearts are in the right places does not change the fact that their actions are. May all of you read this objectively and gain some insight into the good that can be produced from armed conflict.

In peace when possible In arms when necessary!

Jeremy

Bomber or Not..!!!

19.03.2003 09:26

Well Done Ulla!!! Good to see/hear that this direct action is taking place. In my view it don't matter if that plane is a bomber/fighter/supply aircraft... etc. It is one military 'vehicle' out of action. Good Work!

ORange

the funny thing

19.03.2003 10:38

The funny thing is i bet the damage is either repaired by now or well on its way to being repaired. its not like a few dents and broken windows will actually put plane out of commission... only delay it. the military has alot of people trained to fix things like that.

now the bit about the sugar in the gas tanks... thats an expensive fix, but I'm willing to bet they get replaced pretty quickly. Its not like Either government is lacking for funds to support the war.

so all the vandals are doing is delaying the inevitable.

justathought

Vandals

19.03.2003 12:32

So what we need is more vandals!

Meanwhile:
A possible defence for aggravated trespass at Fairford (etc.)under international law by Matt Sellwood, New College, Oxford. The introduction states - "The most common charge for breaking into a military base is that of aggravated trespass. Under this charge, the police have to prove that you were impeding other persons 'going about their lawful activity'. It is clear that, under international law, the preparations for what will be a war of aggression do NOT constitute lawful activity."

Mark

Congratulations!

19.03.2003 13:40

I take my hat off to you. Well done!

Paul Drew
mail e-mail: pauldrew999@yahoo.co.uk

Legal stuff

19.03.2003 21:43

That's the exact tack the Sea Shaperd Society took after ramming and sinking an illegal whaling ship. It worked for them.

Good protest.

Whatever

Nicely done. Only 100s more planes to go!

19.03.2003 23:20

Well, well, well. Cosmetic damage to one, single Tornado. Someone call the Nobel Peace Prize board!

Colt

Please support the Iraqi people

20.03.2003 01:34

Hi everyone. I am an ex-Iraqi citizen whose family (what is left of it) was forced into exile by the Ba'ath regime in 1989 when I was just 15 years old. My uncle was an Iraqi army officer who was critical of the conduct of his superior officers who were giving orders to murder civilians. My uncle was tortured to death by being sliced into pieces, which were then delivered to his family's door. His wife and 6 children were forced to eat his remains and then they were murdered by being nailed to lamp-posts and signs in the street. The rest of us escaped across the border to Syria from where we flew to the UK and we were granted asylum by this wonderful country. So far, nearly 1 million of my fellow Iraqi families have suffered a similar fate as mine.

I still count myself as Iraqi, as I did not leave Iraq of my own free will, and would one day love to return and open a general practice surgery, which is my profession. I would like my children to be able to play in the Tigris as I did with my sisters when I was a boy.

Now, on with the discussion about this wrecker-of-aeroplanes. Although I respect her for acting according to her beliefs I can only say that she is helping the man who murdered my uncle's family, namely Saddam. This war is not about killing innocent women and children as these groups will not be deliberately targetted, although several thousand will die at the most by being used as human shields by Saddam. Compare this though to the at least 25 thousand of my fellow Iraqis who are tortured to death each year and you will see that it is worth it to go to war to free my people from the terror of the current Iraqi regime headed by the despicable sadist Saddam. My noble people have a chance of freedom and welcome the efforts of the Americans and British to free them. For the first time in two generations my people will be free from torture and murder. Please listen to the Iraqi people before deciding what is good for them. My people want this war to happen. They want to be free. They are not interested in the so-called "peace activists" using this war as cover for their anti-capitalist and anti-American agendas.
If you care about the Iraqi people, like you claim to, then please support this war and if you want to do some good then go to post war Iraq and help them rebuild the country, instead of sitting here trying to stop something which in reality is truly good, which is the liberation of my people. Maybe I'll see you in post-war Iraq?

Iraqi exile living in the UK

To iraqi exile

20.03.2003 02:58

We had a dictatorship here in Greece during the 70s
(supported by the CIA btw)
and thousands of people died in the hands of torturers.
But we gave our blood for our democracy.
Many people died in protests and in prisons,
but we liberated ourselves without foreign "help".
If your people can't do the same
then they simply don't deserve their freedom.
They won't have struggled for it
and they won't appreciate it.
They'll probably have a new dictator in a few years,
when Mr. Bush will have his oil assured.

In the meantime, your country will be flattened
and many women and babies killed
and everybody else will have to pay for rebuilding it.
Why?
Cause the oil companies' directors were fucking idiots
and invested on a country as unstable as Iraq.

So, see you in postwar Iraq?
Don't think so.
My people earned the right to their peace.
We just support those that make their own stand.
Like that brave woman.
Ulla, let her name be remembered.

Alex
mail e-mail: akranidis(at)hotmail(dot)com

From Iraqi Exile to Alex

20.03.2003 22:06

To Alex: Please re-read my post, as it seems that you didn't read it at all.

You state that if a people cannot throw of the rule of their regime then they do not deserve freedom. It is impossible for my people the Iraqis to overthrow Saddam without foreign help. His security apparatus is too strong. The Iraqi people welcome outside help in deposing Saddam, so it is not YOUR choice whether there is foreign intervention: it is the choice of the Iraqi people. And the Iraqi people choose that the Americans help them.
You think that the Iraqi people have not struggled for their freedom? I tell you that they have struggled every day for the last 20 years. They deserve their freedom.

Your comments are stupid and uneducated and I wonder if you are genetically stupid or if you were maybe just dropped on your head as a baby. Either way, you have the pity of every thinking man and woman who has read this. And like we say in Persia, "A fart be on your beard".

Iraqi Exile

To iraqi exile

20.03.2003 22:57

It's ok, you can call me names,
I don't give a shit what you think about me.
But what I say is true, and truth hurts.
I don't doubt their suffering,
only their will and determination for freedom.
You see, freedom cannot be given,
it can only be gained.

I won't continue this discussion here,
it's not the place for it.
You can reach me through my email if you want.

Alex

Concern over violence

21.03.2003 04:07

As an American I am concerned by the levels of anger expressed in some of these replies. I know from my medical rehab. practice in London that it often has to do with alcohol and other drug consumption, aspartame and other additives and often with a diet of violent US TV.
I tell victims is to breathe deeply and think of a peacfulscene andtry to avoid anger as it detrimental to health.
Well done Ulla. Whether this plane has killed or will kill is irrelevant of course. I don't want my tax Pounds Sterling to have to pay for it.

Art Blinkin

Admirable action

21.03.2003 11:23

As a Danish citizen, I am very proud of Ulla Røder taking such an action in defence of human decency and international law. Under the Geneva Conventions we, as citizen, have a responsibility to act to prevent war crimes, as the one now being perpetrated by the US/UK govt. alliance. It takes a lot of courage and integrity to act on that principle, and in that, Ulla Røder serves as a model for us all. Well done!

Jens

Jens Nielsen

Back to Alex

21.03.2003 13:42

It doesn't matter whether or not you care what I think, as you have demostrated in your posts so far that you are, how should I say, at least a little stupid.

Freedom CAN be given, as it is being done now by the brave soldiers who are prepared to lay down their lives so that my people can live free from torture, rape and arbitrary murder.

You will oppose everything that America does, as you are not a "peace activist", you are simply an "America-hater". If you were a peace activist then you would be helping oppressed people all over the world to gain peace. Instead you oppose peace for oppressed people. You are simply one of those who choose to hate. Why don't you learn to love instead?

Iraqi in Exile (but not for long)

very good job!

21.03.2003 14:01

very well done! the tornado is indeed capable of crriyng out many types of attacks: air to air ; air to ground ; reconnaissance for tactical missiles and bombs... this woman is to be honored, i think... she needs a medal! taking out a modern bomber/fighter with just a HAMMER ! WOW! i`m very impressed. its like to take out a tank with sugar!

kartoffel/potatoe

Resist!

21.03.2003 16:18

Surely terrorism consists of actions designed to instill fear? The actions of Ulla and similar protesters are intended to prevent war and death. They aren't acts of terrorism, but rather of peace.
Our responsibility to the international community of human beings is more important than our duty to be loyal to any particular state.
Sometimes, as in the case of illegal wars and oppression, we have a moral duty to do what we can to resist.
The USA shows very real and alarming signs of sliding into fascism. Many Americans are resisting this and need the world's support. The best way of showing this support is to resist the war effort by all means possible. And take advantage of opportunities to display solidarity with the growing numbers of US citizens who are realising that the real threat is the startlingly rapid undermining of democratic institutions in their country.

Matthew

i feel no good will come of this

21.03.2003 23:30

I think I'm rather happy Ulla's done what she's done.

The Iraq exile who said "His security apparatus is too strong. The Iraqi people welcome outside help in deposing Saddam, so it is not YOUR choice whether there is foreign intervention: it is the choice of the Iraqi people. And the Iraqi people choose that the Americans help them.
You think that the Iraqi people have not struggled for their freedom? I tell you that they have struggled every day for the last 20 years. They deserve their freedom." put me in mind of Abdul Farak, Sandhurst trained no less and part of the group that's meant to take up the reigns of power in postwar Iraq, assuming the US gets its widescreen happy ending. In a recent interview he stated he was grateful for current US help in deposing Saddam, but seemed deeply suspicious of America, not trusting their motives and pointing out they'd even warned Saddam's security apparatus of attempts to overthrow him thru the 80s. Maybe not all Sandhurst graduates are as barking, or as evil, as we think...

And I really agree with Matthew's comment that the USA shows very real and alarming signs of sliding into fascism. Resistance does need to be supported; the scary faith in the rightness of US actions seen on prowar sites like 1itt1e green f00tball5 is reminiscent of nothing less than the way Serbs and Croats were manipulated by their nationalist movements' propaganda to believe they were wholly good and everyone else was monstrous. There was resistance in those countries; surely it's not too late for the US?

Delphine

How to gain peace (to alex/iraqi)

22.03.2003 15:37

Ignoring what might seem as falsehoods in the iraqi statements concerning people eating their relatives and being nailed at posts/signs, which in any case is recounting events that had taken place 15 years ago - a time during which Saddam was still supported by the US... there is one thing you should always keep in mind. Something that has been spoken about in many times in the past. A well-known general rule concerning conflicts. It is this simple thing:

Whenever you wish to fight against an enemy, do not call for the assistance of someone stronger than you. For your new ally is bound to take for himself whatever you wish to gain.

History is full of such examples. Do you know of any single nation that had been 'liberated' through a foreign power and then that foreign power let it 'free'?

Even if the foreign power would let them free in thend, such a thing can never ever work. Why? Because The people must liberate themselves, for only then they will be strong enough to actually *keep* their freedom. If the US invades Iraq, destroys Saddam, selects someone for a leader and leaves, the country is fucked. There will be too many groups that could govern, none of which having sufficient power against any other..... Hey that just reminded me of Afghanistan...

Christos

To Alex and Christos

22.03.2003 20:28

Alex,

You are wasting your time here. I've spoken to many people like you and most of them never learn. Your best bet is to just go back to school and hope for the best.

Christos,

You don't seem to believe the account I gave of my relatives having to go through what they went through. Maybe you are a Holocaust denier too......
My people are thankful to anyone who will come and save them from Saddam. We don't care if it is the Americans, British, Turkish, Indians, as long as Saddam goes. The Americans are the best bet as they are the least likely to install a dictator in his wake. They certainly don't want another Saddam.
You ask for examples of countries which have been left alone by their liberators? I give you France, Germany and much of Europe. These countries are not ruled by American generals are they?

Will the Iraqis waste their chance of freedom? Maybe, but at least we will have the chance to make a go of it without Saddam. It's the chance we want, that's all.

You can keep on coming up with reasons why you don't want the Americans in Iraq and all of them will be false. What I want to hear is the real reason why you hate the prospect of us being liberated by America. I have already mentioned that the Iraqi people want them there so there is no justification for you to oppose their wishes. Come on, what's your real reason?

Iraqi in Exile

project for mad, mad, mad world order

23.03.2003 06:43

Mr Angry would be frightening if he wasn’t so bonkers:

“Where were you during Saddam's reign of terror?”
Um....not supporting him with material and with advance warning of attempts to depose him...???

”Until I see the protesters crying for their previous inactions, I will treat them just as they should be treated: like useless, unwashed, dissatisfied, angry kids who need a serious ass-whopping to put their spoiled little bratty ideals into a more realistic line.”

I’m guessing Mr Angry works in childcare. :)

--

On a more serious note,

“My people are thankful to anyone who will come and save them from Saddam.”
This we get; and I point again to Abdul Farak, wise if callous in saying “we don’t mind who helps us get rid of Saddam, but we certainly don’t think the US are doing it for any particularly good reasons.” The only thing that scared me about this interview was that it had been crafted by the US PR-type people as the best way to sell the planned postwar government to Europe and the saner people of the world.

“The Americans are the best bet as they are the least likely to install a dictator in his wake”
Yup, they just want to give you the freedom to buy big, buy American. Not the freedom to disagree with you, mind – if you do that any time in the next 60 years they’ll call you ingrates, seeing as they liberated you – and then go round you and any other inconvenient international process of justice to get what they want anyway...

“They certainly don't want another Saddam. “
Nope, but they probably wouldn’t show much displeasure if there was an Iraqi Bush.

Project for a New American Century, right? Charming.

Delphine

Liberators

24.03.2003 14:13

As regards to the reply to my comments:

1. Probable falsehoods: I do not have a reason to believe what you say. On the other had, I do not have a reason *not* to believe what you say. As a matter of fact, I will just accept the fact that there were and still are atrocities committed, as happens in all dictatorships. For me, their precise nature is currently irrelevant.

2. While I can agree that the US had played an important role in the 2nd world war, you can hardly argue that Europe was 'liberated by the US'. You seem to be forgetting that the Nazi army was crushed by the Russians and was thus depleted, and that their airforce was similarly weakend by their fights with the British. Constant bombarment by the was detrimental to their infastructure and caused difficulties in maintaining the war engine. Furthermore, the resistance in occupied European countries had become organised and managed to deliver significant blows to the occupying army. Do not forget that at the end of the war, the US army was able to operate from bases in southern italy - which was a direct result of an italian revolt.

And it also depends on what you mean by 'ruling over'. If you mean economic dominance and political dependence, this was exactly had had hapenned after the 2nd world war. Western europe entered the US sphere of influence and Easter Europe entered the USSR. Remember the Cold War?

So, what have we here? We have a bunch of weak nations, with actual resistance forces against the Germans, which needed the help of the US and Russia to crush the enemy. In the end, half of Europe 'allied' with the US and half with Russia. Do not delude yourself that it was any kind of alliance worth its salt. It was a split of territory between the two emerging powers. All of it is Realpolitik. Remember the Cold War? It started immediately afterwards.

Christos Dimitrakakis

To iraqi exile

25.03.2003 14:44

I'm really *sorry* for being that cruel. I know it doesn't make much difference and I'm not even sure you are who you say you are, as I know now that fear for our homes and our food on the table makes us do strange things sometimes.

I really hope we'll all get to know a little bit more about our "enemies", and thus about ourselves, through these paths of communication (as I did the last few days since my first post here) and give ourselves a chance to stop this madness before WW3 knocks on all our doors.

As Albert Einstein said not so long ago "I do not know with what kinds of weapons the Third World War will be led, but the Fourth World War will be fought with sticks and stones."

Alex

Iraqi In Exile

10.08.2003 22:24

The idea that Alex needs to go back to school and that he needs better teachers is a little stupid really.

I don't doubt that Saddams regime was as evil as you said however the point needs to be made that if it wasn't for the USA, UK and other nations supporting Saddam as a "friend against Iran" then he would never have got into that position. The chemical and biological weapons that were the "reason" for this war would all have "made in America" or "product of the USA" on the side (makes you proud don't it?)

Maybe it is you that needs a history lesson with better teachers, another good example are the Taliban and Bin Laden both of them were "freedom fighters" in the 1980's when the were killing Russians, however once the kill the wrong people ie: our people they become "terrorists".
The fact that Saddam has gone from Iraq is undeniably good but do not be fooled, if he had towed the American line and stayed useful then they would not have come and "liberated you". The fact is that any dictator, no matter how cruel his regime, is tolerated as long as they are useful. Once they stop being useful then the govenment and the media suddenly remember how evil they really are.
Also remember that it wasn't Saddam that put sanction on your country, which have probably killed more than Saddam and his hench men managed in how many years?
So IRAQI in Exile say "Viva USA" as loud as you can, but those of us who remember history know your shouting "Viva Saddam" each time.

Anyway back to Ulla, what she did may not have completly sucessful, it is more than likly that the jet she attacked is ready to use again however the symbolism can not be ignored.
As far as it not being helpful to the anti-war movement again that is debatable, the protest on Feb 15th had between 1 million and 2 million people (depends who you belive the cops or the organisers) and yet Power did not listen.
So the question is, if peaceful protests don't work does violence directed against the machine of war not the people (Kill the jets not the pilots) work? I'm not sure, but if when people feel that they have no voice, that if they ask nicly they will be ignored anyway then they will act violently.

As for all those people who say that Ullas action are terrorism you might have a point but isn't war just terrorism with a bigger budget?
When an army kills thousands of innocent people and calls it "collateral damge" is that not terrorism? The only thing these people have done is to be born into the "wrong" nation.
Maybe if there were more "terrorists" who attacked the machines of war then there would be less terrorists who feel it is better to attack people.

We have been put into the situation time and time agian where we have to support the murder of one people to stop the murder of the same people: Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq.
Yet most of these situations have in some part been caused by our leaders. If anyone needs to go back to school with better teachers it is the likes of Bush and Blair, if they really are trying to do the best thing for everyone which is the front that they attempt to put across (that i personaly don't beleive) then they should learn that supporting a bastard now will only mean fighting a bastard later.

One final thought: How many regimes are we supporting now so that they would agree with a war? Today we are creating how many new Saddams?

Marcos

Editor's Note:

24.08.2003 12:22

Several offensive comments on this article have now been hidden, but some other comments may still refrer to them.

Tom

Should be locked up

15.04.2004 18:17

I served to protect my country against foreign enemies, I do NOT believe in war. However the criminal act of this person goes against the grain. The damage caused in inexcusable, tax payers money went to purchase this aircraft to defend us!

War is not a pretty thing. We must however protect ourselves against those countries who believe that the west is a decadent society...would Ulla like to go to Iraq and damage some of their tools of war, I am sure that they are using them to greater effect that the UK and the USA.

One thing for sure, if she is caught over there doing this sort of damage, she will get more than a charge of criminal damage.

Sure, nobody wnats to have these weapons of war and destruction, but come on, this is a world where more than one person feels that they have a right to cause heartache and mayhem.

Our current servicemen deserve the best that our government can provide, and no-one, no-one has the right to damage property.

She is no more or less a terrorist herself and should be deported....

UK Ex serviceman

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