Hope this posting gets a more considered set of responses than your earlier one.

I still think the ISM should find stronger terms to condemn the bombing, though.

Best of luck with the unthinking folowers of Ben Gurion,
Bri.

ISM needs to confer with Matthew Hale on the proper method of denying violence linked to their group.

the presence of the ISM, along with independent journalists is vital to allowing Palestinians to realise they are not alone and the situation is not as black and white as islam vs. the west. the presence of the ISM and independent journalists is, as mentioned in their statement, vital to cataloguing and exposing (if not to the mass corporate media) what is going on throughout the Occupied Territories.

Israeli media is reporting that an indpendent British journalist has been shot in the head in the Gaza Strip and killed. We all know about the ISM activists that have been killed and wounded by "stray shots" of the IDF. if the ISM are being removed from the occupied territories then it will further expose the Sharon regime for what it is - an old style corrupt racist regime in the model of SA or Zimbabwe, but without the "international community outrage".

good luck to the ISM and Palestinian people in surviving the new way of things in that part of the world. i fear you'll need it.

People who go to Hamas rallies and burn US flags with Jewish stars on them are not "peace activists." People who help keep genocidal Islamic hatred on full boil are not "peace activists." At most, they are activists for a certain cause in which they believe; even if that cause in just (which in this case it isn't, since it involves the fervently hoped-for murder of millions of people), it's still not advocacy of "peace." The tactics of ISM have as much to do with non-violence as alligator wrestling has to do with ballet. The description of your "non-violent" activists running to the cover of the Arab gunmen to avoid arrest was precious. I don't think that Gandhi would approve.

By the way, your announcement is pathetic: it is a perfectly routine hysterical anti-Israel rant, with a phrase about "denouncing violence" thrown in.

If you really wanted to help the Palestinians you would explain to them that the suicide bombings are wrong. When they refuse to accept that, tell them that the suicide bombings make them look like primitive savages who don't know anything else other than running at their enemy screaming and waving their sword.

You might try to explain to them that terrorism is worthless against a strong military foe, and evil as a political application in that it targets unsuspecting civilians.

Finally, when they are staring at you blankly in their blissful lack of comprehension, you could tell them "Suicide bombing is terrorism. Terrorism equals no state."

ISMs myopic support of a sub-group of Arabs which the Arab world refuses to help is at best adolescent idealism, and at its worst a cover for terrorism. Shame on you.

we're aware you try to flood this wire and have seen your post on  http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php . this is not the ISM but UK Indymedia. please note our editorial guidelines and refrain from threatening language, otherwise your comments will be hidden. rational debate yes, spam no.

I take an issue with your first sentense. It's telling enough not to read the rest:

The International Solidarity Movement supports non-violent resistance to the illegal and brutal occupation of Palestine.

1. ISM supports an extremely violent bombing campaign directed against civilian targets, such as school buses, ice cream parlors and dance halls.

2. Well known for offering of material and moral support to the terrorists, harrasment of Israeli soldiers (who serve in the territories protecting their homes, families and public spaces) and stirring incitement among Palestinian Arabs, ISM members now appear to have a more direct connection to terror.

3.Get a grip. There is no illegal and brutal occupation of Palestine, unless you mean Syrian occupation of Lebanon.

I too have noted the interesting fact the left does not seem to be honest enough to allow any opinions to be seen here with which they disagree, even thought they have a comment section. The logical conclusion is that they are intellectualy bankrupt. Lacking the ability to formulate an actual logical argument, they simply delet what is inconvenient. And what they dislike seems to vanish with startling rapidity. As to the jolly fellows who are the subject matter of the article, why should the ISM or Indymedia have a problem? If the destruction of the bourgeois middle class capitalist oppressors is your ultimate goal, then what are a few bombings between friends? Free market culture is based on the principal of free choice, free trade and voluntary association. That the opposite requires murder, torture and terrorism should be clear to all. So what's the problem?

If the International Solidarity Movement supports non-violent resistance, will it please report members that belong to these groups?

Abu Nidal Organisation (ANO): The principal aim of ANO is the destruction of the state of Israel. It is also hostile to "reactionary" Arab regimes and states supporting Israel.

Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG): The precise aims of the ASG are unclear, but its objectives appear to include the establishment of an autonomous Islamic state in the Southern Philippine island of Mindanao.

Al-Gama'at al-Islamiya (GI): The main aim of GI is through all means, including the use of violence, to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state. Some members also want the removal of Western influence from the Arab world.

Al Qaida: Inspired and led by Osama Bin Laden, its aims are the expulsion of Western forces from Saudi Arabia, the destruction of Israel and the end of Western influence in the Muslim world.

Armed Islamic Group (Groupe Islamique Armée) (GIA): The aim of the GIA is to create an Islamic state in Algeria using all necessary means, including violence.

Asbat Al-Ansar ('League of Parisans' or 'Band of Helpers'): Sometimes going by the aliases of 'The Abu Muhjin' group/faction or the 'Jama'at Nour', this group aims to enforce its extremist interpretation of Islamic law within Lebanon, and increasingly further afield.

Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ): The main aim of the EIJ is to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state. However, since September 1998, the leadership of the group has also allied itself to the 'global Jihad' ideology expounded by Osama Bin Laden and has threatened Western interests.

Hamas Izz al-Din al-Qassem Brigades: Hamas aims to end Israeli occupation in Palestine and establish an Islamic state.

Harakat Mujahideen (HM): HM, previously known as Harakat Ul Ansar (HuA), seeks independence for Indian-administered Kashmir. The HM leadership was also a signatory to Osama Bin Laden's 1998 fatwa, which called for worldwide attacks against US and Western interests.Hizballah External Security Organisation:

Hizballah is committed to armed resistance to the state of Israel itself and aims to liberate all Palestinian territories and Jerusalem from Israeli occupation. It maintains a terrorist wing, the External Security Organisation (ESO), to help it achieve this.

Islamic Army of Aden (IAA): The IAA's aims are the overthrow of the current Yemeni government and the establishment of an Islamic State following Sharia Law.

Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU): The primary aim of IMU is to establish an Islamic state in the model of the Taleban in Uzbekistan. However, the IMU is reported to also seek to establish a broader state over the entire Turkestan area

Jaish e Mohammed (JeM): JeM seeks the 'liberation' of Kashmir from Indian control as well as the 'destruction' of America and India. JeM has a stated objective of unifying the various Kashmiri militant groups.

Jeemah Islamiyah (JI): JI's aim is the creation of a unified Islamic state in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Southern Philippines.

Lashkar e Tayyaba (LT): LT seeks independence for Kashmir and the creation of an Islamic state using violent means.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad - Shaqaqi (PIJ): PIJ is a Shi'a group which aims to end the Israeli occupation of Palestine and create an Islamic state similar to that in Iran. It opposes the existence of the state of Israel, the Middle East Peace Process and the Palestinian Authority.

Salafist Group for Call and Combat (Groupe Salafiste pour la Predication et le Combat) (GSPC): Its aim is to create an Islamic state in Algeria using all necessary means, including violence.


Thank you

Are your arguments so frail, and is your belief in your cause so weak, that you feel the need to delete any messages that contradict your stance? You claim to be about "independent media" that challenges "orthodoxy", but when people challenge your own orthodoxies you respond by deleting their posts!

The fact is that if the Israeli government were anywhere near as evil as you fellows like to make out, those ISM members would be already be dead or in some torture chambers as we speak. Instead, they are allowed to roam freely within Israel, obstructing the efforts of Israelis to protect themselves from murderers, and aiding and abetting the actions of killers of children and other innocents. How can you live with yourselves?

Before you write off my comments by accusing me of being a "Zionist", a "corporate stooge" or some other leftist nonsense, let me say here - I am not a Jew, much less a Zionist, not an American, and not even white. What I am, though, is a human being with a mind of my own, and a willingness to use it. If Israel had wanted to exterminate the entire Palestinian people, as is often claimed, they certainly could have done so a long time ago, but they haven't. The reality is that the Palestinians are where they are today because of a long history of violent rejectionism, dating right back to the 1920s (ever heard of the 1929 riots?) They rejected a state in 1947 that would have given them everything they ask for today and more. They and the rest of the Arab world chose war in 1967, again in 1973, yet again in 1982, and now we are all supposed to feel sorry for the poor Palestinians? Spare me the sob story!

The fact is that the Palestinians are neither the only, nor even the most, oppressed people in the history of the world, and yet they have continually preferred to resort to violence to achieve their aims. No matter how just their cause is, they forfeit their moral standing when they engage in suicide attacks on random strangers. Those who encourage them in such behavior, as you lot do, are no better than accessories to murder, and you sabotage the very cause of the people you claim to be wishing to help. Rather than engaging in cheap confrontationism in the West Bank, how about persuading the Palestinians to resort to nonviolent resistance instead?

If you believe you can support palestinian terrosism and keep your hands clean, you are useful fools. Otherwise, you are useful tools. Either way, the blood of Jews is on your hands.

Then again, it is sort of a tradition, isn't it?

Joe.

When have the Palestinians tried peaceful resistance? Seriously. If you can site even one example, I would be surprised.

Throwing rocks and blowing up, well, lots of different things, not to mention killing people, hardly qualifies as "peaceful" in the MLK/Gandhi sense of the word.

Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza, et al after the 1967 Six Day War. In 1972 you had the Munich Olympics incident. At best they about five years effort before they decided that terrorism was worth thirty years of effort.

When are the Palestinians going to give Peace a chance?

When have the Palestinians tried peaceful resistance? Seriously. If you can site even one example, I would be surprised.

Throwing rocks and blowing up, well, lots of different things, not to mention killing people, hardly qualifies as "peaceful" in the MLK/Gandhi sense of the word.

Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza, et al after the 1967 Six Day War. In 1972 you had the Munich Olympics incident. At best they about five years effort before they decided that terrorism was worth thirty years of effort.

When are the Palestinians going to give Peace a chance?

Sorry, mate - there's still a whole load of hate speech and ill-considered responses.

There again, what should one expect from the supporters of a terrorist state?

ISM still does good work, but I'd still like to see it condemn those two Pakistani (not British) idiots.

Bri.

zionist, you forgot the other occupation - the occupation of the real Palestine by Jordan.

still not deleted - did indymedia turn over a new leaf and start accepting dissent or were they just baited into keeping this post up, just this once to show they're not really all that fascistic.

Mikey Mike Mikey,

You are at it again my clue bereft friend. Those nasty little "JEWWWSS" are at it again. Controlling US foreign policy, stealing our money (Funny I thought Congress voted on foreign aid) and plotting the genocide of those peace loving Arabs who have attacked the Country 4 times.

You are sad. You really are. I have a movie for you. It is called "The Eternal Jew." Oh wait, you own that one already. On your shelf next to "Triumph of the Will" and "Meine Kamph for Dummies".

Mikey, I am not a jew. I am not even Christian. Now go and grow some balls. Post an e-mail address. I will give you mine. Be a man, not a boy.

---I wonder how long it will take the fine folks at ISM to Delete this post?

As far as I am aware ISM is completely nonviolent.

If any of those posting so rabidly can offer concrete
example & evidence proving otherwise, I would certainly
read it.

Full respect to IMC-UK for resisting the urge to censor
all this sickening stuff. The fact that these posts are
still up here is testament to the fact that this IS an
open publishing resource. Long may it remain so.