Sorry Freddie, but if you do a little research you will soon discover that Neturei Karta does not constitute a "significant" group even among the ultra Orthodox. Much larger groups of ultra Orthodox (groups perhaps hundreds of times larger) are agitating against ANY land being returned to the Palestinians. It's not among the "frum" that you'll find significant Jewish support for co-existence with the Palestinains but from the more secular left.

About the Israeli atomic bombs being a potential threat to Britain (or more to the point France of Gremany, etc.) -- OF COURSE THEY ARE. It's why the French (or you Brits, for example) can't force the Israelis into line by threatening to nuke Tel Aviv. Of course even if it stayed conventional like the Falklands, I believe the Israeli air force would be a tougher proposition than the Argentinians were.

...of the ultra-orthodox, Mike. Sad to hear that the little spark of reassurance the announcement gave me was misplaced. Never mind, I find there are still many, many fairminded and moral members of the jewish faith and race who are just as horrified at what is being done in their name. And nevertheless support the right to exist of both an Israeli and a Palestinian state, as I do.

On Israeli nuclear capability, I hope there is no question of us ever threatening to nuke Tel-Aviv. I don't think this sort of policy is likely to come except in a situation where religious fanatics get into power.

I think an enthusiastic push towards Armageddon by the uk govt is unlikely. Far less so than for the Israeli govt.

We should try to keep world threatening weapons firmly beyond the reach of death-desiring religious fanatics, christian, jewish and muslim.

No even marginally humane group of people is likely to happily murder millions unless they have been taught to believe in some stupid old book which they think tells them god wants it to happen. And that he will reward them beyond death for helping to bring it about.

Unfortunately it looks like some such persons are all ready dangerously close. As you seem to agree.

Look, you've got a right to an opinion as much as anyone, and believe what they tell you about nukes if you must, but your indignation is a bit misplaced when you talk about "crimes committed since it illegally broke out from the borders given to it by the international community at its creation". The land given to Israel by the UN is tiny, about 30% of modern day Israel. Israel accepted it, and then the Arabs (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq) attacked, blah blah blah, cease-fire lines became the '67 borders you so love and cherish. Ok? Good. Now carry on with your nuclear conspiracy, no one is going to stop you.

You seem to be saying that the existence of Israel's nuclear capability is a myth, the result of a conspiracy to malign its government.

Is that correct ? I have seen many, many postings - some from what appeared to be very reliable sources - all of which seem to agree in the 200-500 warhead range.

I have also seen responses, apparently from the Israeli govt, refusing to confirm or deny these reports, and asserting a deliberate policy to so refuse. A policy which apparently has a special name - something like "strategic ambiguity" or similar.

If you seriously think I have been misled, I should very much like you to assist me with some links or other reliable impartial information putting me straight.

If Israel has no such weapons, don't you think it might be a great help in defusing middle-east tensions if it so declared, and voluntarily opened up to WMD inspections to set all these fears and suspicions to rest ?

With such a huge preponderance of conventional military power, I cannot believe it necessary for Israel to pretend to have weapons it does not, nor can I believe that dispelling these false impressions would expose it to danger.

Submitting to inspections itself would surely enhance its security, by removing any justification for its neighbours to similarly refuse.

I do accept your point that Israel was attacked, and that the original Israeli state was perhaps too small and vulnerable. I have no access to any proper analysis, but I am willing to concede that this might well have been the case.

Although I am altogether unhappy with the palestinians being driven from their land, and the massacres and crimes that were involved, we have to move forward from where we are. The '67 borders seem to offer our only hope of agreement, and of two states living side-by-side in dignity, independence, and peace.

So, if you can accept this compromise too, lets hope together that things can move forward on that basis, and that both these suffering peoples can finally escape from their deadly embrace.

I'll toast to that !

I was puzzled that my posting has been radically curtailed, with the summary showing, but the posting itself disappeared (hidden ?).

To investigate, I first clicked to view hidden postings. The link seems to be broken.

I then looked in the features list, and found this:

Jul 03 12:13:08 ok let's try and find some wire article that looks
'dodgy'
Jul 03 12:13:19 some times you have to read them carefullly...
Jul 03 12:13:45 i tend to look suspiciously any thing to do with
palestina and especially with israel...
Jul 03 12:16:11 ekes if you haven't got to this posting yet, go to:
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/07/273551.html
Jul 03 12:16:52 Yep
Jul 03 12:17:04 thats abot the Neturi karta who are a sound bunch
Jul 03 12:17:07 i suggest we hide it
Jul 03 12:17:27 we can unhide it later if you don't agree with it,
shall we?
Jul 03 12:17:38 we just need to hide something :)
Jul 03 12:17:40 ok?
Jul 03 12:18:00 For the purposes of demonstration... lets keep going

I can't find any discussion of whether my posting was in fact deserving of being hidden, as it partially has been.
Just " i tend to look suspiciously any thing to do with palestina and especially with israel..." and
"we just need to hide something :) "

While of course people have to be shown how to do things, is it possible the teacher just forgot to reinstate the posting, or to evaluate it properly to see if he/she should ?

Or did the pupil practice further on it, with little skill, leaving it unintentionally in a strange state, half hidden, half showing ?

Of course you have absolute right to hide whatever you wish, but it would be nice if a bit more attention was paid to content than seems to have happened here.

The only attention seems to have been

Jul 03 12:17:04 thats abot the Neturi karta who are a sound bunch
Jul 03 12:17:07 i suggest we hide it
Jul 03 12:17:27 we can unhide it later if you don't agree with it,

which seems to have misunderstood. I was praising this groups announcement except for its call for the total dismantling of Israel, which surely no reasonable person would support ?

Normally I would think it quite wrong to try to argue with any of your editorial decisions, but is it possible that what happened here is that my article was almost randomly selected for a tutorial exercise, which was then accidentally not followed through ?

Hey, Freddie, as your second reply noted, what I was really talking about was your claims about the borders being internationally given. You conceded, and thats all I really wanted to say. Just as a further point, the '67 borders aren't necessarily perfect. They were the cease-fire lines from the war of independence in 1948, not well thought out strategic divisions, so for instance they go through the middle of some villages, which is not a good thing. So, while I'm all for giving the Palestinians a state of their own with secure and recognised borders, if a bunch of changes are made to the '67 lines that's cool with me -- land swaps would help out the overcrowded Gaza Palestinians.

I really know nothing about Israel's nuclear weapons. I know that theres a big 'textile factory' in Dimona thats heavily guarded. It seems to me that whether Israel has the weapons or not, it's to its advantage to have the Arab world THINK it has the weapons, and repeated denials seem to have that effect. Nukes are deterence, as every nuclear country bar the US knows, Israel would be fucked by radiation if it used it on any of the surrounding countries. But that's based on no facts at all, just my gut feeling, so I'm not arguing with you there. But there is no group in Israel today that is seeking Armageddon, there are racists and nutters, but no one talking about nuclear weapons, certainly not against Britain. So clean your trousers and don't you worry about them.

Josh