If you are so sure that "Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history", I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:
When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?You are lamenting the "low sinking" of "once proud" nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?
And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?
I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won't work here.
The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively?
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a "nation" -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the "Palestinians'" murderous motives. I am afraid however that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.
Comments
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Challenge:
26.10.2003 11:06
This person who appears do define himself EXCLUSIVELY by his race ("JEW") rather than by any common humanity is a git of the highest order and ought to be banished to the outer reaches of whatever scummy NYC Zionist publication he has slithered out of.
If he wants the Crusades fighting again he can fuck off. And he ought to recall that during the last one it was the Muslims who protected the Jews from the murderous, hairy-arsed "Christian" yobboes rampaging around the Middle East.
Mad Monk
hairy-arsed
26.10.2003 12:03
sceptic
Just one thing...
26.10.2003 12:10
what's the matter, u can't address the issues so u try to divert and distract by shooting the messenger, rather than the message?
Jamie
Ah, Jamie
26.10.2003 12:20
But no - I won't answer any of the "points" in your original, ignorant, anti-Arab posting. You ask a silly question and I won't dignify it with debate.
And yes - if you act like a nasty little bastard you will be abused like one.
As for "sceptic" (oh no - not you again, arsehole). Why are you never sceptical of the mainstream? You've got the wrong name, that's for sure.
Your point about Muslims in Europe is as ignorant as it is facile. Just visit the many beautiful towns and cities in southern Spain and Italy to see the massive cultural benefits that the Muslims brought to Europe at the time, encouraging art and architecture and protecting the Jews (again) at a time when "Christian" Europe was too busy living in shit, thinking filth "kept disease away" and setting fire to "heretics" to consider such things.
I repeat, Jamie. If you want to spread disinformation about the Middle East then fuck off somewhere where such nonsense and deceit is tolerated - that is after you've looked up the word "tolerate" in a dictionary.
Losers. The pair of you.
Mad Monk
Distraction, distraction
26.10.2003 12:50
I ALWAYS use my real name. I didn't post the original article. What were u saying about paranoid?
> But no - I won't answer any of the "points" in your original, ignorant, anti-Arab posting.
What's ignorant about it? can u dispute ANY of the FACTS in the article? no, didnt think so. that's why u're trying to distract from it.
> I repeat, Jamie. If you want to spread disinformation about the Middle East then fuck off somewhere where such nonsense and deceit is tolerated.
The only place I can think of where "disinformation about the Middle East", "nonsense and deceit" is tolerated and indeed encouraged, is in the Arab press, every single day. And quite often, Indymedia, of course.
Can't u say anything apart from 'fuck off', 'wanker' or some other obscenity? Is this the zenith of your argument? Please tell me u can compile even a vague argument that addresses the points and facts raised, rather than just being plain rude and expecting us 'Zionists' (who simply agree with Israel's right to exist in peace and security) to go away?
Jamie
Distractions, distractions
26.10.2003 12:59
I ALWAYS use my real name. I didn't post the original article. What were u saying about paranoid?
> But no - I won't answer any of the "points" in your original, ignorant, anti-Arab posting.
What's ignorant about it? can u dispute ANY of the FACTS in the article? no, didnt think so. that's why u're trying to distract from it.
> I repeat, Jamie. If you want to spread disinformation about the Middle East then fuck off somewhere where such nonsense and deceit is tolerated.
The only place I can think of where "disinformation about the Middle East", "nonsense and deceit" is tolerated and indeed encouraged, is in the Arab press, every single day. And quite often, Indymedia, of course.
Can't u say anything apart from 'fuck off', 'wanker' or some other obscenity? Is this the zenith of your argument? Please tell me u can compile even a vague argument that addresses the points and facts raised, rather than just being plain rude and expecting us 'Zionists' (who simply agree with Israel's right to exist in peace and security) to go away?
Jamie
political organisation is not a prerequisite for a life free from persecution
26.10.2003 13:24
It is not necessary for them to have set up political institutions of this type for them to enjoy all the rights and dignities which we should all be fighting to extend to every person.
No lack of such institutions give another group of people the right to occupy the territory in which such people live.
If your position is that property rights can only be asserted through legal documents issued by some political power which at some point had the brute force to subdue the region, I reject that also. But if that is your position, then you should be objecting strongly to Israel's daily rejection of such documents, which many palestinians possess, and which were issued by the Turks and/or the British.
fred
collected from all over?
26.10.2003 13:45
"And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination......?"
This is astonishing. If taken seriously, it demolishes the rights of Israelis to be in the area far more effectively than those of palestinians.
Are "Israelis" anything but generic Jews collected from all over ?
Or even thrown out ?
The "collecting from all over" is still continuing - see the official Israeli web sites offering subsidies to jews anywhere in the world - even the poverty stricken and skill-less - offering right now to move them onto land which will be taken from the palestinians.
If the right to self-determination comes from a "genuine ethnic identity" where does that leave the people of Israel who have no such identity, but are bound together only by a religion? Individual conversion is allowed today. And probably 50% of Jews are descended mainly from a huge central European empire which converted to Judaism on the arbitrary decision of its ruler (following a competitive "tendering process" in the 13th century). No genetic connection with the area at all.
Do the people of multi-cultural Britain have a "genuine ethnic identity" ? Does this mean we no longer have the right to self-determination ? How about the USA ?
The whole posting is arrant racist rubbish. A knee-jerk propaganda response with no considered or rartional thought behind it whatsoever. The poster does harm, not good to his cause.
fred
pro-natives and other anti-white racists
26.10.2003 13:46
What was the capital of the native american America?
What was their currency?
When was it founded and by whom?
What was it called?
etc etc.
[sarcasm]
fadgfg
Fred and fadgfg - thank you
26.10.2003 14:31
These people cannot understand that others have the same right to peace as Jewish people, particularly if they bloody well happen to LIVE on the land in question and are a bit Middle Eastern and haven't just been bussed into illegal settlements under armed guard from Russia and New York due to some spurious "right to return" doctrine.
Return? RETURN?
These people are Europeans, Russians and Yanks and the minute they realise this and stop trying to act like all Jews are the same and are all mystically linked to the Mid-East then the better for everyone.
But no Jamie. As I said before, crap of the sort you and the original poster spout can and should be met with abuse.
I note that you have ignored the fact that I am clearly an intelligent and erudite person with a knowledge of art, culture and history (observe my delightfully twee comments on Moorish architecture) and have chosen instead to focus on the fact that I feel better for abusing twats like you on a Sunday.
So, here it is again: Fuck off Wanker
If you don't like it then I suggest that you hang around websites that don't annoy you quite as much and do us all a favour.
Tatty-bye.
Mad Monk
cultural benefits
26.10.2003 14:56
And they really are doing a good job now of protecting the Jews. I don't suppose the name of Klinghoffer means much to you either. But then, neither did the Germans do a good job. Which might just possibly be why the Jews are now so fierce about holding on to what they now have.
sceptic
Septic Wank
26.10.2003 15:37
You do not counter any of my arguments simply by listing *other* achievements in NORTHERN Europe (which the Muslims never got to anyway) which have nothing to do with the point of the discussion.
Yes Austria had Beethoven. So what?
All you do in fact is condemn yourself again as the kind of Eurocentric white-supremacist racist tosser that we all knew you were. And one who doesn't have a clue, at that.
Enough of your septic wank. Do you think that anyone is fooled?
Twat.
Mad Monk
countering your arguments?
26.10.2003 15:52
Eurocentric? Well, yes, given that most of the things I referred to were European in origin. Perhaps you'd like to give us an equivalent list from elsewhere in the world.
sceptic
Sorry Septic I can't
26.10.2003 16:10
You're so right Septic! Let us go forth together and rid the world of these evil, ignorant darkies!
Twat.
Mad Monk
sceptic...
26.10.2003 16:30
-Ottomans permitted freedom of worship in areas they controlled. Greek Orthodox Christians worked with the Ottomans because the other Catholics were, unlike the Ottomans, denying them their freedom of worship.
-Around the time we're talking of Christians were still doing their millenia long quest to kill every Jew in the world, something that continued right into the 20th century you may want to note
-the genocide of the native americans- over a 100million people- was less time ago than the periods you are basing your racist arguments on
-unlike in Christian Europe, where Christianity strangled and silenced science, literature, culture, etc, for a long while these same things actually flourished in the Islamic world
I think you'll find that white supremecy in America, European imperialism, etc has been a hell of a lot worse than the Ottoman Empire was, and their atrocities have also been far more recent.
As far the original Palestinian thing, its like saying that (assuming Palestinians are just Arabs as you claim) if a race of people from all over the world came to North England and settled there, expelled the North Englanders, and then said 'What are you talking about 'North Englanders'?? There are no 'North Englanders'!! They are just English!' to justify what they did.
fadgfg
nothing like ....
26.10.2003 16:33
Don't attribute motives to other people unless you know what you're talking about.
sceptic
rascist arguments
26.10.2003 17:17
ummm ... like the Ottoman Empire? "-unlike in Christian Europe, where Christianity strangled and silenced science, literature, culture, etc, for a long while these same things actually flourished in the Islamic world" - not centuries ago?
"-the genocide of the native americans- over a 100million people- was less time ago than the periods you are basing your racist arguments on" - populatiuon of continetal America in 1500 estimated at 1.5 million.
Mad Monk: "murderous, hairy-arsed "Christian" yobboes rampaging around the Middle East."
And I'm the racist one?
Find me one racist argument I've ever made.
sceptic
........
26.10.2003 17:37
So you are allowed to denounced muslims and islam and say they have never made any positive contribution in the world or the world of culture and that they're evil islamic conquerors- based on stuff from centuries ago- and yet I am not allowed to refer to stuff centuries ago that refutes that??
"populatiuon of continetal America in 1500 estimated at 1.5 million."
Did the evil anti-white racists inflate it? Just like the evil anti-white racists inflated the holocaust figure because it never happened and in fact only 1 million died?
I don't know the population figures for 1500, but at a later date, which I cannot remember, it was over 100 million, and then about a century and a half later, it was a mere couple of million.
"Find me one racist argument I've ever made."
If I were to say that blacks are rampaging around our country, that their culture is rubbish and I listed loads of white culture to prove it, would you not consider that maybe a bit racist?
I will repeat- unlike in Christian Europe where science and culture was strangled by Christianity, for a long while culture and science flourished in the islamic world. Many important scientific things- such as for instance the discoveries that fuelled the industrial revolution- were discovered by islamic scientists.
fadgfg
You tell 'em Monk
26.10.2003 18:19
Good point Mad Monk! I'm sure we could all think of lots of examples of a non-white person or culture producing something of note.
Sonic
dear fagdfd
26.10.2003 18:38
give me a [reputable] source for the population of N America as being 100million in 1500, and 1 million a century and a half later. Since quite a few were huntergathers, such a population is not sustainable.
since when have I mentioned "blacks are rampaging around our country"? quote please.
where did I say "their culture is rubbish"?
"Many important scientific things- such as for instance the discoveries that fuelled the industrial revolution- were discovered by islamic scientists." Name me one.
sceptic
.....
26.10.2003 19:49
I never said you said blacks were rampaging around the country, that was an analogy.
You questioned the idea that Muslims ever contributed to culture, then listed a whole bunch of white European cultural things which you consider successful, and made a point of pointing out that muslims came up with none of them.
The islamic world:
-took the paper making art from the chienese, introducing many innovations turning it into a cheap industry (at beginning of 8th century), and by the 9th century paper was widely used
-turned mathematics into the language of science (where you think we get our number system from?)
-invented/discovered algebra
-developed trigonometry and spherical geometry
-introduced distillation of water
-realised that the human body consisted of complex chemical processes and reactions
-developed technology for distilling crude oil for its many uses
-created the water wheel
-Ib Sina's (d.1037) The Canons of Medicine was a standard medical text in the West for 700 years
etc, etc
fagdfd
inventions and discoveries
26.10.2003 21:28
"-turned mathematics into the language of science (where you think we get our number system from?)"
number system - not according to
and not science as we know it today.
"-invented/discovered algebra" indeed. and algebra itself is an arabic word.
"-developed trigonometry and spherical geometry". try
"-introduced distillation of water" source?
"-realised that the human body consisted of complex chemical processes and reactions" chemical processes as such were not understood as such by anyone at this date.
"-developed technology for distilling crude oil for its many uses" oh? How did they get the oil out of the ground?
"-created the water wheel" rather older than islam, I suspect
Oh, and to quote you again: "You're basing your racist arguments on stuff that happened centuries ago."
Umm .. isn't that what you're doing? And if my arguments are rascist, then aren't yours?So now how about some modern examples?
sceptic
reply
26.10.2003 22:17
My source for all of that was a book called something like beginners guide to islam, which was part of a beginners guide series not pro-Islam propaganda.
dsfdf
good grief sceptic
26.10.2003 22:55
Even more importantly, could those posting in favour of the original posting by Jew, actually tell us whether they believe that God is preferentially involved with the Jews, and wishes them to possess certain territory ?
Because, you see, anyone who actually believes this inhabits a radically different reality from the rest of us. No rational discourse is possible. Such a viewpoint is the enemy of any world view based on the ultimate desirability of equality and of equal dignity and rights for all humans.
Any group which truly believes that it has some inherent superiority or divine preference over the rest of the human race makes itself a danger to us all, and deserving of at the very least sanctions and isolation, and ultimately deserving of being compelled by international intervention to respect the dignity and rights of any other group unfortunate enough to fall under its power.
So I ask again - who here believes that God has a special relationship with the Jews ?
Or are you embarassed to admit it ?
fred
rascist
26.10.2003 23:07
"to base your racist arguments on stuff that happened centuries ago, but I am not allowed to refer to stuff centuries ago to refute them."
No, I'm not talking about stuff that happened centuries ago. How about the jet engine, penicillin, microprocessors, the Internet?
sceptic