Tazaar, if you care about the Palestinian children portrayed in these pictures, you will know the history of desperation and occupation. But you don't actually give a shit about these kids at all.
Photographs can be seen by some as propaganda on both sides but you ignore the fact that the power behind the atrocity of occupation is unequal. Unequal is too small a word for the level of oppression that Palestinians live (and die with) daily.

Desperate people under attack, with no means of defence, do desperate things. When you have seen your father and brother killed by helicopter gunfire, your house bulldozed, your school bombed and your mother humiliated and bereaved, nothing is too extreme.

"Tired" is completely missing the point. When you make excuses, you are really not doing anything to help. You're simply perpetuating the suffering of these children, by turning a blind eye to it under the auspices that it's "ok" to abuse children in this way, providing there's a "reason" for it. Is that what they call activism these days?

Remember, it's not the kids who are willingly taking part in these "peaceful" rallies. They are being indoctrinated to hate, encouraged by vile PA propaganda, on a daily basis. Most of those children don't even know what's going on, so please don't tell me they're doing it willingly out of desperation. You have to be TAUGHT to do the things they're doing, it isn't genetically pre-programmed into their brain.

Quit with the ostrich syndrome, because your excuses are not helping anyone, least of all these children. As an activist, you should help put an end to this despicable child abuse!

I've never found anything more hypocritical then a jew calling an ARAB a parasite.

There are those that would prefer us not to think for ourselves.

There are those who would prefer it if we didn't make connections.

I don't know the motivations for some who write here - I can make guesses, but will not be distracted that way.

The issue here is the abuse of childrens rights.

There is no use equivicating about it either ... children are entitled to a life free of opppression, war, famine, death etc etc.

The question that should be asked by all honest people is .. what actions, conditions, beliefs are interferring with these rights.

There are those who would have us believe that the reaction (of Palestinian/Arab populations) came before the stimulous. Not wishing to be bogged down by philosophical discusions of dualism, relativity or other rarified scinces - lets just stick to the clear and everyday idea that a stimulous PRECEEDS a reaction.

Smeone walks into your house and shoots your children. They leave, but might come back at any moment. You have some more children - this time you protect them with your own weapons, but woorried you might be shot before you can use them, you instruct your new children on how to protect themselves.

A deplorable situation agreed - the childrens lives wasted by being centered on death and warfare, focused on resistance and solidarity. Still, perahps it is better than having some more dead children, or at least gives a small opportunity to ensure no more dead children.

Various zionist and their apolgists would like us to forget that these images come dirrectly from societies that have seen their children mowed down, have experienced the humiliation and pain of exile, theft and death.

The reaction FOLLOWS the stimulous.

Unless you would have us believe that the reaction is pathological and no other people on earth would react in such a way!

Those americans, europeans and russians currently occupying arabs lands are the stimulous.

The destuction of over 450 arab villages, the total wiping out of existance of Palestinian culture and history are the stimulous.

The targeted[sic] assasinations, property destruction, tree loping, stillborn checkpoint babies, are the stimulous.

The response might not look pretty, but nobodies out to paint pretty pictures - war is hell, always has been always will be.

If you want, you can do a search on child soliders (throughout history) you might see how the empires of the west were built.

No double standards please - do you care about these Palestinian children, or do you care about those who stole the land keeping it at the expense of those Palestinian children ...averaging 8 deaths of children a week by the brave israli army - you saying they were all armed?

None of these images of Palestinians invalidates the power of Latuff's original cartoon. They are all presented without context, as a fait accompli, as if they mean anything on their own.


I notice one of the images is cartoon-like. It resembles the extreme propaganda distributed by USAID in Afghanistan; the textbooks which encourage this kind of thing.

It hardly needs pointing out that the responses to Latuff's cartoon are extremely biased and one sided. It is well known that Israeli extremeists similiarly indoctrinate thier children into extreme anti-arab/amtipalestinian sentiments. By the arguments employed here, such practices are also 'child abuse'.

The question we must then ask is, why does the situation lead to the indoctrination of kids on both sides, and what third party elements or what common evil is stirring up this kind of behaviour. Just shouting about the percieved Palestinian 'child abuse' and ignoring the corresponding Israeli behaviour, and using this to call Palestinians names is a discourse which is going nowhere.

... Yet again, another apologist misses an oppotunity to reflect on the nature of reality ...

You have nothing to say on the in-escapable link between the behaviour of the oppressor with that of the oppressed.

Your continual avoidance of the responsibilty of the invasion, occupation and ethnic cleansing of the land of the Palestinian people, speaks volumes though.

To deny the link between the actions of those that created the reality and everyday experience of a displaced people - regarded as little more than insects by the displacers - is to deny the [limited] workings and responses of the frail human heart and mind.

Yes of course you, I, anyone can find images and stories to discribe the way in which humiliation and enslavement distorts people (findout the history of the 'jewish' terror gangs that first began the ethnic cleansing - they were the bastard child of hitlers monsterous world veiw and that of the insular, closed and relentlessly xenophobic rejection of tolerance and diversity that is so closely allied with religions of all types), the point here though is that THAT IS THE REACTION ... the STIMULOUS is, looks like being for the immeadiate future and has been the unaceptable actions of zionist fanatics/supremacists.

Their actions have literally (and in some cases exactly so! - but that is another debate!) created the enemy before them.

Also, I see no mention of the actions of the IDF/israeli political establishment and the absolute and incontrivertable link to the violent deaths of thousands of Palestinian children (and who knows how many lives blighted by injury, bereavment, displacement, mental stress, lack of opportunity or, unbelievably so, the increasing incident of distitution and malnutrition and lack of access to adequate medical care.

Are you to have us believe that none of these crimes happened? That no one from the zionist enclave need address them? That even if they did happen, that they are not important or worthy of your interest - let alone pity?

You would like us to not join the dots and cross the t's - but you do a miserable job of it - your obvious hatred and contempt for your fellow humans writes a different message for us to read.

You play games with the notions of guilt, responsability and compassion - never once actually indulging in them.

Do you really believe that such a neive attitude convinces those with even half a brain?

Citing the propaganda of a waring faction as proof of the collective nature of a entire people is about as dumb and infantile a conjecture as it is possible to make without disengaing from reality completly. That you should have manouvered your mental outlook into such a confinment should betaken as a warning to yourself that your ideas are failing and unsustainable. Understanding this is one of your last escape routes to humanity and peace.

Take it.

Tazaar....

If you see Arabs as suicidal loonies hell bent on murdering Isralies...

Did you ever actually stop to wonder why they would be like that ?

It wasnt so long ago that the hanagah and stern gang were murdering the british to create your home on that distant pile of sand.

I have no doubt that theres nothing I could say to make you at least think about your attitudes on the Israel/Palestine issue but perhaps if you spent a few days in the shoes of a palestinian you'd maybe have a more balanced and better understanding of the subject.

Unfortunately, its unlikely that that will happen.

Has anyone else reading this thread been hearing.....

"Wont Somebody think of the children!" being screamed in the background.

The only reason that israeli children (who are, after all , conscripted into the army anyway (when they are young adults) - arent seen like this is that they have a powerful army to protect them and are lucky enough to have the possibility of a "normal" life.

Who will protect the palestinians from the Israelis ?

Ahhh, I see.

Its all an Islamic conspiricy to take over the world.

Silly me, should have spotted that.

Thanks Emo.

Thats the joy of dehumanising a race. It allows one to hate so much more easily.

The germans did it very well in the forties.
You'd think that Israel would be more cautious of doing so than anyone else.

Bigoted hateful people are so easy to pick holes with.
This will be my last posting on the matter because only the acquisition of great wisdom will allow you to change your opinions - let alone permit you to accept that their might be a contrary opinion to your own - and i'm pretty sure that that aint gonna happen anytime soon.

So, here goes.

I've no idea if you really think this is a religious thing from your point of view (or just a bigoted attack on a people you refuse to understand) - but if you are religious - does your religion condone your attitude ?
I suspect not. Which makes you, no better than the "other lot" that you are moaning about.

You also rattled off a whole list of unrelated fracas that took place where some of the residents of those countries happen to be muslims (and guess what, the others dont).

Does that mean that ALL WARS ARE ABOUT RELIGION because pretty much all countries of the world have more than one religion ascribed to by their people.

What was the first and second world war all about then.... - Hitler says:My version of christianity is better than yours - lets annexe the Sudentenland !

I suppose the falklands war erupted because the Argentine Junta were fed up with catholic oppression in northern ireland and decided to do their bit !

You are so obsessed by religion that you see it as a justification for everything.


If a war does happen between an muslim people and a non muslim people, who's to say that its not the non muslim people's fault and its not actually driven by religion anyway.
Religion is always used as an excuse for war, but is rarely the cause.

I wont go through all the countries you mentioned because i'd be wasting my time and I cant really remember the overly long pointless geography lesson but
You mention Kosovo (I think you forgot Bosnia).
In both these places Muslims have lived peacefully for years but were then attacked, outgunned and brutally oppressed.
Albania (many of the kosovans were of albanian descent) has christians and muslims and they all get along just peachy (well, as far as you can in Albania - its a dump)

Afghanistan ? I seem to remember that they were perfectly happy until invaded by Russia (this time around). Anything else was a civil war between muslim people - same religion, may be different sects - and a whole bunch of zealots (and sure, we only ever find THEM in muslim countries (yeah right).

Palestine: Just how badly were the muslims getting on in palestine before 1946 exactly ?
until they were driven off land that they'd lived on for thousands of years.
Damn. Israelis keep forgetting that dont they. After all, you have a god given right to be there dont you.

Iraq: Who did Iraq invade on their mission to create a muslim world. Oh yes. Kuwait another muslim country and is thus irrelevant to your arguement.

Sudan
Eritrea
Dagestan

I dont know enough to comment about off the top of my head but based on your other rantings i'm sure their situations are not as simple as you imagine.

Chechnya : I seem to remember this is more of an independence from Russia thing (or did the chechens invade russia and demand that the russion orthodox church turn muslim !?!)

Kashmir: Well, whos to say who's at fault here. India or Pakistan. Probably my own country (Britain) for making such a fudge up of the end of the Raj.

Phillipines
Nigeria
East Timor
Indonesia
Thailand
Bangladesh

Again, Cant be bothered or dont know enough about the situation to comment. But I can be sure that each of these stories has at least TWO sides.

Anyway, You just label me as an Arab lover and I'll just label you a zionist and we can go round and round for another couple of thousand years if you like.

Bubba, make of it what you want, but you can't deny the plain and simple fact that the ONLY thing that links ALL of the conflicts I mentioned above... is far right Islamist imperialism.

Please note that Islamism is not the same as Islam.

Your point about there being two sides to every conflict is facile. On one side, all of these conflicts are clearly homogenous (i.e. they are the expression of Islamist imperialism). On the other side, there is no common theme - no religious, ethnic or political common ground.

Islamists do want to take over the world. They don't hide it - in fact, they're proud of it and they say so to anyone who will listen.

If the major cause of war in Chechnya is the wish for independence from Russia, why are Chechnya and Dagestan over-run with Saudi jihadi fascists? Remember the theatre siege? Most of the terrorists were the widows of Saudi men killed trying to 'Islamise' the conflict, trying to enforce Wahhabi fascism on the people of Chechnya.

If the people of Palestine were more interested in say, Sufi Islam than extremist Wahhabi Islamism, they would already have a secure, independent state and the hundreds of Palestinians that have been killed blowing themselves up or trying to shoot Israeli children dead would still be alive.

... and I know groups like the PFLP are nominally secular, but we all know who has the power in Palestine, and where the money comes from. If you don't follow the Islamist line, you get lynched as a collaborator.

"Its all an Islamic conspiricy to take over the world."
No one has said that in this thread, except you.

"Thats the joy of dehumanising a race. It allows one to hate so much more easily."
Doesn't it just. See above pics.

"The germans did it very well in the forties."
That's my point. The PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Murderers, Hezb'allah are also doing a remarkable job of it right now. Coincidentally, against the same group of people that the Germans did it against.

"You'd think that Israel would be more cautious of doing so than anyone else."
Can you show me evidence of where Israel has done this?

"This will be my last posting on the matter because only the acquisition of great wisdom will allow you to change your opinions"
I'll hold you to that. And why do you want me to change my opinion of PA child abuse? Surely any civilised person would want to speak out against child abuse, wouldn't they?? Why are you defending the indefensible? Methinks it's not me who needs to change my opinion of it.

"Which makes you, no better than the "other lot" that you are moaning about."
I'm 'moaning' about PA child abuse. Shame on me! You're moaning about me 'moaning' about PA child abuse. How liberal.

"Hitler says:My version of christianity is better than yours"
Hitler said "Kill Jews!". Remarkably, the guy in picture 1 above says something similar.

"After all, you have a god given right to be there dont you"
No, they have a UN-given right to be there. For your information, I'm not Jewish, or American. I'm British.

"Anyway, You just label me as an Arab lover and I'll just label you a zionist"
I won't label you as anything. I simply question your need to defend bone fide child abuse.


Your excuses are not helping anyone, least of all these children.

Do I really have to post images of palestinian children with limbs missing or that have been shot by Israeli conscripts or run over by Israeli tanks - just for balance you understand.

If your concern is simply about the "child abuse" going on then why are you so wrapped up with the islamist argument.

The funniest thing about your whole argument is the conviction that you have some kind of tacit UN agreement.

There has been more condemnation of Israels behaviour at the UN than in any other forum in the world.

So you claim you're british. Then "whats it to ya".... couldn't be a racist thing by any chance could it (he wonders aloud).

balls. That really is my last word on the subject.

If the land is occupied, it's being occupied by Arabs, not Jews.

Yesha [the "West Bank"] is not an 'occupied Arab land' but in fact an area of the Mandate which are to be dealt with in accordance with the terms of the Mandate. [That means that according to International law all Jewish settlements are legal as they are built according to Mandate's provision of "encouraging the close settlement in these areas by the Jews"].

The Mandate does not provide for a separate Arab state to be created in Yesha. [Israel has much more right to Yesha than anybody else, according to International law, since Jordan, which captured Yesha in 1948 in an aggressive war against the young Jewish state, officially renounced all claims to Judea and Samaria in 1988].

In November of 1947, UN General Assembly resolution 181 was issued, recommending a "Plan of Partition" of Palestine. The Arabs rejected the resolution outright and Azzam Pasha, secretary-general of the Arab League, proclaimed that "the partition line shall be nothing but a line of fire and blood." The terrorist operations that began against Jewish targets on the day after the UN vote escalated into a full scale aggressive war against the newborn state. It was Jordan, and not Israel, that occupied the land of Judea and Samaria as a result of this war. Like the Romans, who changed the name Eretz Israel to Palestine in order to obliterate the name of the Jewish state from the memory of mankind, the Jordanians introduced the term "West Bank" trying to convince the world that they had always owned both banks of the Jordan river. When Israel liberated Judea and Samaria in 1967 justice was restored -- the only lawful owner of the land regained possession of it. It is ridiculous to say that Judea, Samaria and Gaza are "occupied territories" as these areas are, in fact, areas of the Mandate, where the Jews were and are encouraged to settle.

"oh this is so dull"
That's just your opinion on this terrible child abuse.

"Do I really have to post images of palestinian children with limbs missing or that have been shot by Israeli conscripts or run over by Israeli tanks - just for balance you understand."
Go ahead, nothing is stopping you apart from the fact that you won't find any. I could, however, post pictures of many Israeli children who've been left maimed after being blown up by suicide bombers.

"If your concern is simply about the "child abuse" going on then why are you so wrapped up with the islamist argument."
I'm not. My concern is simply about child abuse (why did you put it in quotes?). That's why on this thread, I've posted only pictures of child abuse.

"The funniest thing about your whole argument is the conviction that you have some kind of tacit UN agreement."
That's not my whole argument. My argument is about child abuse. But as for the word "conviction", try seeing the UN resolution on that created Israel. www.un.org

"There has been more condemnation of Israels behaviour at the UN than in any other forum in the world."
Yes, that's true. In 1994, when there was a genocide going on in Rwanda, the UN passed just 4 resolutions condemning it, and took no action against it. In the same year it felt that Israel, which isn't committing genocide, warranted 20 condemnations. This general unbalanced pattern has repeated itself for many years, and one can only assume it's because the UN has been institutionally biased against Israel for many years.

"So you claim you're british. Then "whats it to ya".... couldn't be a racist thing by any chance could it (he wonders aloud)."
I am British. As for "what's it to me?", I find the child abuse shown on this thread to be abhorrent. You seem to disagree.

"balls. That really is my last word on the subject."
That's what you said last time, remember? But if "balls" is what you think about child abuse, fine, thanks for your input and concern.

This thread has become pointless for two reasons:

1. Someone at IMCUK - acting with the best of intentions no doubt (see road to hell) - has gutted this thread by removing some of the comments, and yet leaving the replies to them. Thus, as a historical document, this thread is about as useful as one of Stalins show trials. It beggars belief that the intention and the outcome are so divergent - does anyone at IMCUK (specifically the person or persons who made 'the cut') really expect that by silencing one voice, the other can expect to make any impression. You might as wel jack the whole thread in.

I understand the need to be vigelent against the hijacking of this site by rightwing types and trolls (this is an electronic frontier, we don't need simply minded scrawls reminding us how 'the media' has always functioned - bow to the lowest common denominator).

What I don't understand is how anyone can justify removing one set of comments whilst leaving the [sometimes] reasoned reply and rebuff of those comments. What meaning can anyone take from that? The whole notion smacks of 'nanny-ism'. There were several of [us] ready, willing, & able to return the thread back to a discussion of whatever facts and ideas have been raised, some had already. Their ability and right to do so has been superceeded by unknown, unaccountable individuals, acting on behalf of 'us' rather than acting in accordance with 'us' (or whatever unsteady consensus could be reached/acknowledged).

2. Certain zionists, acting and portraying themselves as individuals, but actually acting on behalf of organizations such as Bet-tzar (a militant zionist supremicist group), have used this thread to propaganderise.

Having made an extensive trawl through several other IMC sites and other sites holding similar discussion boards, I find almost identical assults on truth - indentically worded and timed.

OK. Fair enough if it was just a case of an organisation using whatever medium to broadcast their news/messages. But it is more fundamental an plan than that.

These groups are not interested in news, truth, facts, fairness compassion equality or justice.

This thread has become a means to obtusify and distort the picture that readily emerges from observing the actual goings on of that region in the Middle east recently colonised by various european, russian & american adheirents to a particular branch of a patriachal, god FEARING, supremicist, racist, bigoted and xenophobic religion (apart from those odd million or so Russians pretending to have jewish ancestry to qualify for an all expenses paid trip to the state of israel!).

No fact can remain a fact. No distortion is too big or too small to inact. No amount of pleading, reasoning, presentation of solutions equitable to all or appeals to the notion of a common humanity will prevail.

These fanatics will not listen. They will not abide by any rule of law, business, curtasy, decency or equitable exchange.

You are wasting your time on people who think that Palestine was empty when the jews started arriving there in the thirties and forties.

They believe that a divine phantasmorgoricall sky ghost gave them the leasehold - dispite the fact that between them all, they have not one ounce of spirituallity (their 'god' is a vengful 'god' that requires sacrifice and obedience, and is not looking for advancement or progress - the world is an 'evil' place, non-jews are cattle and no words signatures or asurances are worth squat in the face of their secret covenat with their all powerful suprem being).

Take for example Tazaars claim that you won't find any pictures of Palestinian children murdered by the israeli military forces occupying their land - patently ridiculous a claim, easily countered by dragging those sorry images up here for everyone to see - but what would be the point of that? Tazaar et al would then claim they werekilled by Palestinians for the sake of publicity, or that hey were taken elsewhere at another time.

Such circular, insular be3lief systems do not allow the facts to intrude.

rathewr than wasting our time trying to convince those that won't be, lets instead respond to our own desire for knowledge and interaction.

There are an enourmous amount of groups working in israel and out - both jewish, mixed and non-jewish - that we could formulate relationships with, exchange ideas information experience. Perhaps we might even correct whatever fallacies either of us still carry with us (no one is free of them!).

By continually trying to keep up and refute issues not directly relevant, already extensively covered or of a nature that excludes meaningful conclusions, we fall into the trap set for us ...

Divertisment. Propaganda. Fallacy.

We know islam, like all the male-god religions, can be poison to the free thinking mind.

We know that there are those who follow all these religions that will enact any reason to get what they want (religion is very attracted to ex-post-facto rationalisation).

We know that war is hell, produces a myriade of cascading injustices, that it dulls the heart and the spirit, that it gives far less back that is expended and that the limits of human frailty find their most grotesque expressions in its grip ...

We can not allow ourselves to be distracted from the bigger picture - which is a very great injustice has been done to a whole people.

They have had their identity, their land and their hope snatched away from them. Thieves have profited greatly from this situation, and have sunken back into the relative safty of obscurity whilst leaving the front lines to be filled with those largely innocent of any wrongdoing (though less innocent when it comes to wrong-thinking) to face the backlash of the disposessed.

Tazaar and [his] ilk must have their space to crow - let them. Let us concentate on the bigger picture, use our hearts and minds like we know we should ... for the advancement of us all.