This is no good solo people on Indymedia don't want to hear the truth about Israel and the Palestinian situation they are only interested in hearing views with an anti Jewish bias. I suggest you go off and re-write this peace to show how it's all the fault of Israel and if you can throw in a little bit of anti-americanism as well (it needn't be accurate) so much the better.

Goodness, you are a sad little man, aren't you Dave?

Spending your days scanning a site which you clearly disagree with just to tap in your dreary "insights", most of which are as predictable as they are ignorant and DULL.

Always there. Never worth reading. Yawn.

"Dave - hard to ignore, but well worth the effort."

Glad to see my comments are making you think. Thanks, you have cheered me up.

If it wasn't for people like Dave we'd all get sucked into the Indymedia sheep mindset and end up believing all sorts of ridiculous shit, e.g.

Hating Jews is OK if you're wearing a keffiyeh instead of a swastika
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah etc give a monkeys about ordinary Palestinians
Flouridated water turns your brain to jelly, vapour trails are chemical warfare

... you can't handle the fact that one by one, the lies of the land grabbing occupiers are destroyed systematically. Instead you create for yourself the duel fantasies that you are a defender of truth fairness and accuracy and - sadly - invent identities to agree with yourself!

1&2 - the usual nonsense about who started what and who is honouring what.

3 - 'Great reluctance' !?! How did this reluctance manifest itself? By a huge, costly (for USA taxpayers) and organised building plan? By the existence of this plan early - or even before - the second uprising?!?

4 - Temporary my arse! Not even the politicians and generals involved in it make this claim seriously. Why do you?

5 - legal my arse! You have a poor grasp of that which everybody else sees for what it is - illegal, and bordering on a crime against humanity.

6 - Tortured logic this one, if the attacks for which the fence has been built to stop, haven't stoped and the fence stays until they stop - what does it actually do then?

Can't be bothered with the rest of this 'field guide to zionism for the hard of thinking'.

Square the circle if you must, make out that black is white and visa versa. Just don't bother us with remedial nonsense (or play near a zebra crossing).

Stop the Wall FAQ

2nd draft - February 10th 2004


QUESTION: So what's this wall then?

The wall is a fortified barrier that cuts through the occupied
territories of Palestine on the West Bank of the River Jordan. Israel
has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967, and illegally
established hundreds of fortified civilian settlements on Arab land.
Many settlements are in fact large towns with their own schools,
housing, synagogues, farms, factories and associated infrastructure.
The wall "protects" these illegal towns, which means most of it is
well outside the offical border of Israel, often called "the green
line," which was set up by agreement between Israel and Jordan in
1949. This border was undisputed until 1967, when Israel occupied the
entire West Bank.


QUESTION: So it isn't a border defence line?

No, the wall doesn't run along the green line for more than a short
distance. Instead it runs well inside Palestinian land.


QUESTION: What does it look like?

In some places, e.g Qalqiliya, it is a high wall made of reinforced
concrete slabs, similar to parts of the famous Berlin Wall (1961-
1990) of the Cold War.

In other places it is a series of wire fences made from coils of
razor wire and a 3m (9.8 ft) high main fence. In addition to the wall
itself, there are gun emplacements, observation posts, sniper nests,
checkpoints and other military installations built along it.


QUESTION: How long is it, and how high and wide?

The wall is currently incomplete, but if future plans are implimented
it will probably be about 730Km (457 miles) long. Some estimates say
it will be up to 1000km (625 miles) long. Israel refuses to show any
maps.

The concrete sections that are mainly in towns form a wall 8m (26 ft)
high while the main wire fence used in more open country is 3m
(9.8ft) high.

By comparison the Berlin Wall was a mere 155Km (96 miles) long with
an average height of 3.6m (11ft 8).

The width of the wall also varies from approximately 70 to 100m (227
to 325ft).

But the true width is deceptive, since Israel has insisted on
clearing vast areas of buildings, trees, shrubs, and anything else in
front of the wall that might obstruct the field of fire for the guns
behind it. If your home is "too close" to the wall, which in practice
can mean even a hundred meters away from it's outer edge, it will be
demolished and flattened. Likewise if your olive grove or plantation
is too close to the wall, it will be uprooted and leveled.

The width of the wire fence part of the wall is large because it
consists of at least one line of coiled razor wire, an anti-vehicle
ditch, the main 3m fence with electronic sensors, and a new military
road that runs just inside the razor wire. In some places there is a
sand trail so that anyone who approaches the wall will leave
footprints, and in other places there is an additional gravel or dirt
road for tanks and other tracked vehicles.

All this means its a lot wider than the word "fence" or "wall"
implies.


QUESTION: Sounds expensive, how much is all this costing?

It ain't cheap. An initial report in Washington Post back in 2002
said a "mere" $740,000,000. Since then the length and scale of the
wall have been increased, so most estimates range from somewhere
between $1,500,000,000 ($1.5 billion) to $3,400,000,000 ($3.4
billion) in constructing the wall. Palestinians whose homes and farms
are demolished for the wall will not get a single dollar in
compensation. The ongoing costs of manning and maintaining the wall
are unknown.


QUESTION: How on earth is a small country like Israel going to afford
that?

The USA will provide the cash. One third of the total US foreign aid
budget, as well as numerous intrest free loans, credits, and grants
means American dollars pour into Israel year after year, without any
conditions on how the money is spent.

For example, in 2003 the USA gave Israel 2.3 billion in military and
economic aid, in addition to 200 million for anti-terrorism
assistance in it's foreign aid bill. Then it added 9 million more in
loan guarantees.

In December 2003 Ariel Sharon asked for an additional 4 billion to
defray the costs of fighting the Palestinians, and 10 billion in loan
guarantees to offset economic recession, payable in 2004.


QUESTION: So why build it?

The Israelis claim it's a defensive measure that prevents suicide
bombers and other terrorists from attacking Israel. In fact it's just
another land-grab, enclosing yet more land that belongs to the
Palestinian people.


QUESTION: So what does it do?

The wall has four main consequences:

The area of land available for a future Palestinian state becomes
much smaller. Some estimates say a horrifying 43% smaller. The
viability of any future Palestinian state is seriously compromised by
the wall.

Palestinian villages close to the wall are seperated from their land -
the wall literally cuts off farmers from their crops and
greenhouses. Even worse, some villages are cut off from their main
source of water. In the Eastern Mediterranean, irrigation is
essential for most agriculture.

Some Palestinians now find themselves on the Israeli side of the
wall. They are cut off from friends, family and colleagues and makes
them effectively foreigners in their own land.

The wall encloses the Eastern side of Jerusalem. About 200,000
Palestinians live in East Jerusalem, already surrounded by a ring of
illegal settlements to the East. The wall will create yet another
further barrier to the East, and 15,000 Palestinians are already
trapped in a thin sliver of land between the municipality of
Jerusalem and the wall.

But the main consequences are just the most serious ones. Almost
everyone living in the West Bank will be affected by the wall. This
could range from short journeys taking hours. A lack of medical care
because hospitals will be cut off from patients. The creation of
thousands of more homeless people. More damage to the Palestinian
economy, which is currently struggling to provide more than a
subsistance lifestyle to most people. The list goes on.


QUESTION: But isn't the wall just a temporary measure?

The Israelis say its temporary. But the wall's elaborate design and
construction from durable materials suggest it is permanent. Remember
that Israel's occupation of the West Bank back in 1967 was supposed
to be temporary too.


QUESTION: Why do protestors often call it an "Apartheid Wall"?

Apartheid is the name given to a system of institutionalised racial
segragation and discrimination in which one racial group dominates
another by systemtatically opressing them. Apartheid is recognised by
international treaties as a crime against humanity. Several acts used
for purposes of control and opression are identified in the 1973
International Convention on Apartheid including the creation of
ghettos, land confiscation, denial of freedom of movement, and any
means preventing the development of the oppresed group. The wall
scores highly on all these counts.


QUESTION: What do you mean by "ghettos"?!?

We mean ghettos! For example the Palestinian town of Qalqilya has a
population of 42,000. It is now completely surrounded by nearly 9
miles of walls and fences. There are only three entrances in total,
one for people and material, two for agriculture only. Less than 20
permits have been issued for farmers to leave the town to work on
their land outside the wall. In addition 32 villages are now cut-off
from Qalgilya which the villagers use for heath care and education.
If Qalgilya doesn't qualify as a ghetto, what does?


QUESTION: But what about the gates?

Some gates have been built in the wall, but already agreements to
open these gates at regular intervals have been broken or simply
ignored. Even when the gates are opened, the guards often insist on
checking everyone one at a time, which means delays that can take
hours. Its clear that Israeli policy is to obstruct movement through
the wall as much as possible.


QUESTION: Even so, the wall prevents suicide bombers from entering
Israel doesn't it?

No way! It's only 20% complete at the moment (February 2004).


QUESTION: But hasn't the number of suicide attacks has gone down
since Israel started to build the wall?

Very true, and very welcome. But the reduction has got nothing to do
with the wall. The attacks have diminished for two main reasons:

A series of unofficial agreements between the Israeli government and
the Palestinian terrorist groups.

A Palestinian realization that every suicide bombing gives Israel a
gift-wrapped propaganda weapon which damages the Palestinian cause
and helps the Israeli one.

Instead the Palestinian people are desperately hoping for a political
solution. The current one is called the "Road Map" which has the
support of the International community, and (allegedly) both the
United States and Israel.


QUESTION: But hasn't the IDF also prevented some attacks?

Given the fact that the IDF is currently the fourth largest armed
force in the world, with well trained and highly sophisticated
intelligence, surveilence, and counter-terrorist units, it would be
astonishing if they hadn't.

But military power is a double edged sword. The building of the wall,
and the daily oppression of so many Palestinians has resulted in a
grim determination to endure. No barrier in history has ever proved
100% effective, and without a political settlement the Wall will be
no exception. Someone, somewhere will always find a way to get
through.


QUESTION: Even so, isn't the wall worth a try?

No. Everyone except for a tiny minority of Israeli and Palestinian
extremists realise that eventually there will be a political solution
to Israeli Palestinian conflict. By building the wall, Israel makes a
political solution harder to achieve. Palestinians become more
enraged and desperate, extremist terrorist groups get more recruits,
and a Palestinian State becomes harder to set up and run on a viable
basis.

Ironically the wall will prolong the conflict, there will be
thousands more deaths and suffering and cruelty inflicted on both
sides.

Even if by some miracle the wall did succeed, does Israel have the
right to sentence an entire people to life imprisonment for ever?
Only a lunatic could image a lasting peace in such circumstances and
accept Israel as a civilised Western democracy.


QUESTION: OK, so what is the ISM doing to prevent the wall?

Our volunteers, along with peaceful Palestinian and Israeli protest
groups are attempting to prevent the construction of the wall. As
always, we use non-violent methods of direct action against the wall.
No human will be harmed in any way by any ISM member. Generally we
try to obstruct any wall construction activities that are going on.


QUESTION: Where can I learn more?

Hopefully this FAQ is a good primer. But you can try these Internet
sites which provide much more information:

 http://www.gader.org/Main/engHome.asp

 http://www.stoptheWall.org

 http://www.btselem.org

 http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/index.html

If you'd like to learn more about the ISM, then try our main web site
here:

 http://www.palsolidarity.org

This FAQ was produced by the ISM's London group, our web site is here:

 http://www.ism-london.org


QUESTION: That lot looks way too heavy for me, isn't there something
simple and easy to read?

Then try this comic strip:

 http://www.ww3artsinaction.org/wall.html

You can print it and give it to anyone you like!

freethepeeps most of your above post is nonesense apart from stating that American aid is paying for the wall. Israel has been under attack on and off since 1948 - 56. It was only the onset of suicide bombings a few years ago which prompted the building of a security fence.

I didn't read enough of your obnoxious propaganda to see just how bad it was.

I did notice the extraordinary claim it was "temporary" - yeak - like a 32m high wall is "temporary".

Its just going to be a second open air Alcatraz - like Gaza.

 http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/

Quoting: "QUESTION: So it isn't a border defence line? [following meaningless explenation why it is not"

The fence is SUPPOSED to be a defense line.
Is it a defense line? a question that apperanatly is dealt seriously only in Israel:

Recently, the ICJ claimed that all of the fence that runs in palestinian land is illegal.

If the fence runs all the way within the green line, some Israeli cities are within range of Plaestinian attacks (snipers, mortarts), cities that were targeted in the past, where random civillians were killed (including children that indimedia passed as adults), cities that are still targeted (so claim palestinian "resistance" organizations), then Israel has the right to defend these cities even in the price of incrusion to the attacker's territory. this is still defense.

ICJ ruled that Israel has no right to build the fence in palestinian land even in such cases, i.e. ICJ rules that Israelies should sacrifice a certain number of civillians (as many as palestinians can murder) or be labled "criminals"

Meanwhile, the Israeli High Court, deals with this subject in a clean and honest way: the Israeli Court looks into each and every incrusion, and already forced the IDF to take down parts of the fence that annex land and can provide protection from within the green line.

The impotent ICJ can shove it, even the palestinians realise that, since they direct their activities to the IHC and mock the patethic ICJ.