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Is IndyCymru the People's Media?

Tom | 22.04.2004 11:54

What is the deal with IndyCymru and why is it not in the Indymedia family?

If you go to any Indymedia site, you'll notice that on the left hand side is a column listing and linking to all the sites in the Indymedia family - from Bristol (UK) to Chiapas (Mexico) to Ontario (Canada): There are IMCs in every major continent on the planet (expect Antarctica!) and the list is growing. But if you look at the European list you'll notice a missing site - IndyCymru is not there. This begs the question - why has IndyCymru become estranged from the rest of the family?

At the heart of the issue is the idea of open publishing - Media 2.0 if you like - this is the attempt to decentrailise and de-mystify the media. To change the very idea of media from the preserve of the few to the right of the many. The global IMC endorses the following definition of this idea: Open publishing means that the process of creating news is transparent to the readers. They can contribute a story and see it instantly appear in the pool of stories publicly available. Those stories are filtered as little as possible to help the readers find the stories they want. Readers can see editorial decisions being made by others. They can see how to get involved and help make editorial decisions. If they can think of a better way for the software to help shape editorial decisions, they can copy the software because it is free and change it and start their own site. If they want to redistribute the news, they can, preferably on an open publishing site.

This idea of 'contribute a story and see it instantly appear in the pool of stories publicly available' is important, for while all IMC retain the ability to 'hide' stories from the newswire, the basic and enshrined approach is to attempt to interferes as little as possible. That's not to say that there are not editorial guidelines - and this is where the transparency idea in the definition above comes in - you need to be able to see the guidelines, and get involved in shaping them. No IMC is perfect - far from it the fractious and sometimes chaotic nature of much of the IMC movement is a reflection of many of the people who are building this movement. That aside the movement is growing and growing - and most importantly - it is a parallel structure where, in the on 60s jargon, the workers own the means on production - as well as that of distribution! As the IMC Membership Criteria draft states:

- Have a committed membership substantial enough to sustain a functional
IMC.
- Have open and public meetings (no one group can have exclusionary "ownership" of an IMC).
- Work toward developing a local Mission Statement or Statement of Purpose. Network Mission Statement may be adopted or used on an interim basis.
- Establish and publish an editorial policy which is developed and functions through democratic process, and with full transparency.
- Agree to the use of Open Publishing as described in the NIMC Editorial Policy.

IndyCymru does not follow either of these fundamental principles. It is not an open newswire for several reasons - first you need to register to be able to contribute (something other IMCs do not ask for) and each post goes to a moderator to approval before it can enter the newswire (again, something that other IMCs do not do - article go straight to the newswire). I have searched the site in vain to find a copy of the moderation guidelines (they may be there, but it does not bode well if a visitor cannot see them!) Even if I did find them, how would I get involved to influence the path of the site? I also could not see any mention of where an up and coming meeting for the site is - the only reference I could find was a post on Sunday, October 12th 2003 - where prospective IMCers were invited to submit their details - which is not really akin to an open meeting.

Some at IndyCymru are looking at the 'Portuguese Statement' as a model for operation (if this related to how the Portuguese IMC operates, then they do thing very differently from IndyCmyru as they do not require people to be members to submit articles and do not moderate the articles before they are posted) - though I have been unable to find a reference to the Portuguese Statement, if anyone know a link to it - that would help (If IndyCmyru is following this approach, surly a link to the site to it would be a good idea?)

As a test I submitted an article on IndyCymru - the submissions page warned me that 'Be advised that not all submissions will be posted.' I could not find any reference to guidelines that would tell my what criteria this moderation operates on. This is preparation to submitting this article – hopefully it will get though the moderation barrier.

Make no mistake - there is a global and local media war going on, a battle for hearts and minds - to fight this battle using the tools of the enemy - centralisation and control - it to loose it before we have begun.

Part of the reason I have written this article is in annoyance at the IndyCymru moderator Ilyan who posted and added to an article which insinuates that Bristol IMC is being run either by MI5 or Politically Correct Fascists. This type of unfounded and unhelpful lashing out at a supposed fellow IMC has spawned other (or possibly the same) posters who see IndyCymru as some kind of martyr/s for a cause: "I don't know...Ilyan, and have no particular brief....but I think that Indymedia should have been more transparent and given an explanation on the UK Indymedia front page when the Indycymru link was removed." I know Bristol IMC is not perfect, and I’m writing this in a personal capacity – but wtf is this paranoia trip going to achieve? BIMC is moving forwards, is transparent, is doing well and I feel we should be proud a the achievement.

Tom

Comments

Hide the following 12 comments

An outsider's impression

22.04.2004 12:24

I think this article gives a false impression about the Cymru site. Let's look at two of the major points/criticisms.

1) "registration" required ---
In order to post or comment, you must first create an "identity" (register). This is not a violation of anonymity in the sense that there is nothing to connect this persona to your real existence. If this is seen as a nuisance let us at least consider the problem which it addresses.

Most Indy sites do not require "registration" and allow FORGED "from" information. In other words, nothing prevents person B from putting up a posting pretending to be from person A and thus interfering with A's ability to post (credibility issues). We have SEEN examples of this with enemies declaring meetings cancelled, etc. Requiring every poster to have (at least one) unique "identity" prevents this abuse since nobody else can register a persona already in use.

2) "moderation" ----
Somehow the statement "not everything might appear" has been taken to imply that htere is PRIOR RESTRAINT ("moderation") without any evidence being presented to that effect. Now I can't say for a fact that intiial postings are not "moderated" (since I never put one on this site) but it does not appear that comments are moderated. How about TESTING before saying things like that.

Don't just about ALL Indy sites operate under "not everything will appear" in the sense that they sometimes remove postings? Guidelines for some sites are clearly worded, for others not, but even that means nothign without what these terms mean IN PRACTICE. I have my own ideas about how "hidden" material should be handled and like the way "my" own site does it (Western Mass) with a clear indication of which editor and why when material gets hidden > BTW -- this seems to work very well in practice with little posted that needs to be hidden. Apparently giving a clear indication WHY seems to discourage abusers who, since everybody elase can see why, cannot effectively howl "unjustified censorship".

Mike
mail e-mail: stepbystpefarm mtdata.com


reply

22.04.2004 13:10

>1) "registration" required ---

Membership - You do need to give an email to join, which is fine for many sites - but not IMHO, IMCs. This is a barrier to participation, for while anyone coming across an IMC site in a Library or something can easily start using the site - with a membership system, this is harder. Any barrier between the users and use of the site should be examined hard - What I don't understand is why is the system used for just about every IMC in the world - not used here?

>2) "moderation" ----
>Now I can't say for a fact that intiial postings are not "moderated" (since I never put
>one on this site) but it does not appear that comments are moderated. How about TESTING
>before saying things like that.

I can say it for a fact, because I did test the site and any posted articles do go to a moderator, who then says yes/no to the article. There is no indication about what criteria are used (it says it will be posted if relevant and/or interesting - relevant to whom and interesting to whom?)

>I have my own ideas about how "hidden" material should be handled and like the way "my"
>own site does it (Western Mass) with a clear indication of which editor and why when >
>material gets hidden > BTW -- this seems to work very well in practice with little
>posted that needs to be hidden.

That sounds cool, as it is transparent - my point with IndyCmyru is that is is not transparrent how any process happens at all.


tom


Agreeing with Tom's critique

22.04.2004 14:15

There has already been one thread about the decision to drop Indycymru from the IM front page, and you will find a response from an IMC-ista as to the reasons why here:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/04/289087.html

To be fair to those who took this decision, the reasons offered were exactly the same reasons given for Indycymru not being considered a complete member of the global IM network, articulated in a message of support from over two years ago when Indycymru was initially set up - the question of openess and a mission statement. You will find the message here:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/04/289087.html

Speaking as an activist in Wales, it is a matter of regret that we don't have a fully fledged IMC running here, for there is certainly a need for it, not least demonstrated by the fact that people have so quickly noticed I/C being dropped from the IM front page. It has, in my opinion, been a matter of complaint on more than one occasion from fellow activists that you have to register to post on the site. People I know who post on IMUK have stated that they are deterred from using I/C for this very reason. Now this might be a matter of laziness, but as Tom pointed out, it does not contribute to the sense of openess. This complaint (about necessary registration) was most recently voiced at the Rising Tide day in Cardiff, and Ilyan's response was that registering cut down the amount of work required from the moderator(s), and allowed for the weeding out of unacceptable posts & obvious trolling. Mike critises Tom for assuming that there is *prior* moderation in place, but it is clear from anyone who has ever posted on I/C that there is prior moderation, not least in the sense that the articles submitted have to get past a mod before they hit the front page.

I don't know how many people are actively involved in running I/C, but I know that there was a period a few months ago where every single story published seemed to come with a comment appended on the front page newswire from a mod. Now regardless of who was writing these comments, it certainly gave me the impression of the site belonging to one person who couldn't allow others to have their say without adding their own point of view. As I write there are 10 stories on the front page centre column of I/C's newswire, and 4 of them have comments editorially added to them, on the front page - not in the fashion that I am adding this comment to this thread. At the same time, Tom suggests that I/C mod Ilyan "insinuates that Bristol IMC is being run either by MI5 or Politically Correct Fascists" - if he is referring to this article: my opinion is that he is rather over-reacting to Ilyan's typically idiosyncratic take on affairs.

Speaking as an activist and someone who considers themself a "natural" IMC user/reader, I would love to see a full Welsh IMC on the go, but personally I would find it difficult to have the time to contribute to this happening in a meaningful way. I have no idea about web publishing, and cannot even begin to imagine what it would take to get a Welsh IMC up and running. Perhaps the decision to drop I/C from the front page might prompt my fellow local activists into thinking about starting this process...?

Buendia
mail e-mail: buendia at lycos.co.uk


clarifying

22.04.2004 14:48

The second link in the above article should have been this:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/05/30255.html

And there was a link missing in the paragraph about the MI5 allegations, but the original article is here:

 http://www.indycymru.org.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=538&mode=&order=0

and upon reading it it strikes me that Ilyan's comments were perhaps somewhat ill-judged.

buendia


reply 2 outsider

22.04.2004 16:10

registration + moderation = control

There is no need to have either of these things.

mmmark


at least we have undercurrents now in wales

22.04.2004 19:35

Undercurrents launch their latest wicked video in swansea on saturday...you all gotta see it.

 http://www.undercurrents.org/unn

jo


Make your own media

22.04.2004 22:22

Who needs to meet all this criteria and who needs to fit in where exactly? There are plenty of free open source content management systems out there that can create a platform for open publishing without the admin/user needing to know vasts amounts of php or html. To create substance, to be something real you don't have to fly a flag or hide behind a logo, come on!

oiyoi


Abuse

23.04.2004 06:18

I think a registration system would reduce ease of access to IM, however i do wish some users would be a little less silly. On bristol IM I have been trolled for 2 weeks, and posts put up in my name in an attempt to discredit me.

This is unfortunate and makes the site look very daft.

If registration was adopted it could be made secure through the use of PGP encryption.

Zaskar
mail e-mail: markdwatson@blueyonder.co.uk


Abuse / Multiple name ?

23.04.2004 13:02

As I under errr stand it your now a multiple, Mark.....

Luther Blissett


rubbish on that point

23.04.2004 14:42

You said:
Part of the reason I have written this article is in annoyance at the IndyCymru moderator Ilyan who posted and added to an article which insinuates that Bristol IMC is being run either by MI5 or Politically Correct Fascists.
That's quite clearly rubbish as Ilyan was quoting the response from Tony Gosling at the following url:  http://www.indycymru.org.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=538&mode=&order=0

Bullshit Detector


It is me......

23.04.2004 22:47

How does UKindymedia compare with this on open publishing?

Indycymru has now published every submission sent in that I have seen bar one, and someone, believed to be then active on indymedia, deleted that out of existence.

No comment has ever been deleted that I know about, there are about six people with editorial rights who appear never to exercise them. I have only met one of the old ones, and one I empowered after the Aberystwyth Peace March.

Funding was raised by an Anarchist from North Wales way, The software and website by a Green Party member.

Editing is presently done by an old fool, -he must be to do it - who was the second person questioned by Special Branch after the Temple of Peace in Cardiff was blown up. Years later the same Officer, much promoted, turned up alone in the interview room with questions while the bomb squad were searching the house for incendiaries and timers - and documents that they kept.

That was an interesting talk, Special Branch knew about the Conspiracy to make Socialism impossible in the UK. I did not then know that a Labour Party member had damaged his hand making an explosive, owned a copy of "Explosives", and had photographs of a dam under construction or we would have had a lot more fun.

The sad thing is that no one in indymedia believes in conspiracy. Accurate reports on the planning of the opposition disappear. The Oligarchs are winning.

Skilled agents out to destroy the efficiency of an organisation will not be prime movers. They will whisper in the ears of the gullible and get them to do the dirty work so that they themselves are able to continue the work of emasculating any organisation that might be a threat to their Principals, without coming under suspicion themselves. They themselves will be intent on climbing to the top to control the organisation.

In the 1930s the two men who did the real work of running Moseley's Blackshirts in the UK were Special Branch Officers. They knew everything that went on. Does anyone think the Establishment does not have agents planted in indymedia? And they are amost certainly too well trained to be detected. May well be the indispensable people who keep it going. Competent, conscientious, reliable.

Ilyan
- Homepage: http://www.indycymru.org.uk


Nonsense

25.04.2004 17:53

Ilyan says:

"Does anyone think the Establishment does not have agents planted in indymedia? And they are amost certainly too well trained to be detected. May well be the indispensable people who keep it going. Competent, conscientious, reliable."


It's always good to be aware of the possibility of planted agents in every political group, but this kind of ungrounded rumour-spreading certainly does not help to deal with this unpleasant possibility.

spy-consultant


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