Respect Sex Segregation

well yes of course

01.06.2004 19:07

Well yes of course lets suddenly ask everyone to become just like you in their views, what a wonderful way to go about politics. Women's rights cannot just go overiding entire cultural sets of values in 20 minutes at a political meeting - you're mad to make this even a point. When you travel are you the, when in rome do as the roman's type or the fuck them they should be like us type? If it's the latter I got no time for you, if it's the former how would you like to be forced to eat a raw animal you consider a house pet just because it's the right thing to do in Rome...some balance please. The homophobic thing was a cock up for sure though.

LOLA

No actually

01.06.2004 20:29

Actually this does matter... one of the principles of the left has been to struggle to advance the rights of the oppressed including women. All organised religions are patriarchial including Islam.... no gods, no masters and absolutely no Respect!

RG

The thing is Lola...

01.06.2004 20:37

...There's a big difference between respecting (or at least accepting) cultural diversity and actively asking people to vote for a 'coalition' that includes social conservatives who would clearly NOT respect certain things that many of us see as fundamental freedoms.

Galloway and his SWP mates have got to be having a laugh if they really think that they're going to be taken seriously by the left while they're playing electoral politics with anti-gay, anti-women's rights conservatives!

Poon

George Galloway eats babies shocker!!

01.06.2004 20:39

Here we go again with the "Life of Brian syndrome"!!

I mean christ, that original article could have been written for the Sun, or the Telegraph even!! You'll be saying he was on the payroll of Saddam next for f***s sake! Really, does an article like this really have a place on the IMC?? I'm sure if you sold it to the Sun they would print it for you and give you a nice big fat wad of money for the effort!! Come on! I thought the IMC was supposed to be different to the corporate media, not just follow their smeery gossip style (comment not aimed at the editorial of course!)??

As far as I'm concerned Respect is probably the best thing to happen in British parliamentary politics for the last fifty years!! Do we really need to launch some pathetic smear campaign to bring them down?? I am sure the tabloids are doing a good enough job of that already...

Goliath

I'm with Goliath

01.06.2004 20:54

I reckon you two actually want to see Respect go tits up just so you can remain trendily marginalized.
ha ha - principles with politics your off your heads, politics is about compromise ...even when you dont like it.

LOLA

...and another thing

01.06.2004 21:08

Surely the most important aspect of this meetin was the fact that 400 people attended, and most of those attending were Muslims (just checked the article:

http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=271&rlid=11). I mean think about it: How long ago was it since nearly 400 muslims attended a political meeting in the UK?? This is a remarkable acheivement and Respect deserve credit for this! I think your original article completely misses the point and merely amounts to tabloid gossipy smeering. Go write for the Sun if you're bored!!

RESPECT Respect!

Goliath

excuse my ignorance, but...

01.06.2004 21:42

...is segregating men and women in mosques the norm?

Whether it is or not, it would be helpful to know whether the requests from the stewards came in turn after the same request from the mosque "staff" (for want of a better word), or even from Muslims present themselves.

thoughtyoushouldknow

With Goliath

01.06.2004 22:13

I've just come back from a Respect launch meeting, and it was great. Their was good discussion, and a wide range of people (race, religion etc).

Now while these Anarchists claim Respect isn't in the interests of the working people, the 'masses' or whatever, surely a party that is supported by Muslims, working men and women, and different religions, is a reflection of society as a whole. Respect IS left wing, although not revolutionary, it is by far the furthest left party...I know people will vote greens simply because they are anti-swp and anti-galloway, but those people will be voting for a party that isn't as left wing as Respect, and should be ashamed of themselves!

r.e.s.p.e.c.t.

The SUN +sexist crap

01.06.2004 22:36

Why would I want to write for the Sun? Do you suppose everyone who disagrees with Respect is right wing?

I accurately reported what was a reasonable meeting spoiled by sexist accommodation to religious practice.

To all indymedia readers I ask: "What would you have said if you'd been on the platform" would you have ignored such blatant sexism or would you have at least made a comment or stayed silent? What if the room had been divided on the basis of peoples race or religion or sexuality?

Sexist crap is sexist crap whether it occurs in the workplace, in the mosque or in the community centre. Respect should condemn this otherwise they are not fit to receive our votes.

Gustav

.

01.06.2004 23:14

And just where would you draw the line in the name of cultural relativism?

.
mail e-mail: .

Ghost of Dr Verwoed

01.06.2004 23:23

There was a name for separating people into arbitrary categories. I think it was "apartheid".

There is no justification for compromising on issues of equality. "Respect" deserve to do badly in the elections. What is the point of principles if they can be bent and distorted to accomodate bigotry in the name of "coalition" building.

Widening your support base at the expense of core-values is about power, nothing else, so let's not pretend that "Respect" is about principles.

How would the stewards have responded if a woman had refused to be segregated?

Brett Lock

makes me sick

01.06.2004 23:36

I can't believe the double standards of Respect supporters making excuses for such backward religious bigotry. The world is blighted enough by the religious fundamentalists in the White House without the so called 'alternative' selling out to and being swayed by intolerant types

Andrew

Respect??? Don't make us laugh

01.06.2004 23:36

A vote for these power hungry turds or any other power hungry turds is to disrespect yourselves and all life on your planet and to deny our own free will as a people.

You like being pushed around? Told what to do? Told what to think? You like witnessing the devastating aftermaths of the mistakes these fucking pricks make once in power and control?

Go and play somewhere else. Your uniform does not impress me ...

LoneStar

a womans opinion

01.06.2004 23:46

I would like to know who decided that the men and women were segregated at this meeting which it says was at an Islamic centre not a mosque.I do know that mosques are supposed to provide separate areas for men and women to pray in although some smaller mosques do not have a womens room but this seems odd to me.

I attended a social meeting once at a Muslim centre not a mosque and there was no seperation,
Im afraid if I had gone to this meeting I would have refused to be segrgated but it may be that this was how the Muslims wanted it and it is their centre,

Please could someone from Respect or the Muslim community pref someone who was there and knows why comment.

I feel angry about this but perhaps the truth may be different?

Perhaps the women wanted it this way?

a woman not a muslim

Interesting

02.06.2004 00:17

..to see Brett Lock of 'OutRage' dissing Respect on Indymedia......again!

?

Iraq's on Fire - Let's attack Respect

02.06.2004 00:40

More than 400 people turn up at a meeting in Leeds. No lets not celebrate. Lets not support them in there opposition to the war, new labour and the BNP. Better we attack Respect.

Visit www.respectcoalition.org for meeting photos.

Vote Respect on June 10th

what sort of absurd logic is that?

02.06.2004 00:47

So because Iraq is in a disastrous state, all other discussions or criticisms are barred?? How very convenient. You might perhaps inform George Galloway of this given that he recently launched a bitter attack on the Green Party...

Andrew

not good enough

02.06.2004 01:28

come on Respect
WHY WAS THE MEETING SEGREGATED?

Is respect going to insist next that women have to have their hair covered up at their meetings next?

By the way I do respect Muslim women who choose to wear a scarf but I also know Muslim women,many of them, who would not stand for this sort of thing,the same sort of women who also resist arranged marriages.Its just not good enough to not give a proper reply.

a woman

stop whining goliath

02.06.2004 02:13

You don't like the content you come across on indymedia, contribute something better.

!INDYMEDIA IS WHAT WE MAKE OF IT!

> You'll be saying he was on the payroll of Saddam next for f***s sake! Really,
> does an article like this really have a place on the IMC?? I'm sure if you sold
> it to the Sun they would print it for you and give you a nice big fat wad of
> money for the effort!! Come on! I thought the IMC was supposed to be different
> to the corporate media, not just follow their smeery gossip style (comment not
> aimed at the editorial of course!)??

forfucksake

why not form an alliance with the pope as well?

02.06.2004 03:52

Respect you are a load of utter wankers if this story is true
The Catholic church is also against the war
are you going to join with them and ban abortion and birth control too?

If this had been a meeting of the Muslim community and they had invited Respect speakers then it would be ok to go by their rules but to tell women they had to sit separately from men??!!!!!!

This is utterly disgusting and those non muslim women who participated are just as bad as all those people at the labour conference who clapped Tony Blair

Baa baa baa baa

feminist and proud of it

More of this discussion:

02.06.2004 07:47

I made the case against all political parties and supporting the system of elective-oligarchy known as 'democracy' here:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/05/292469.html

By the way I am not an 'anarchist', but I still do not accept political parties. My arguments are in the link above anyhow. As to segregation - if it was optional and chosen by the members of the audience themselves then thats up to them, if it was dictat enforced by stewards then thats authoritarian nonsense in my opinion.

Tom

Latest SWP hypocrisy

02.06.2004 09:15

The SWP will shag anyone who pays cash. We're not all amnesiacs: we remember well how they marched down Piccadilly alongside Serbian right-wing nationalists in full nationalist regalia, for the demos against NATO bombing Yugoslavia.

They usually justify their outrageous hypocrisy by accusing anyone who criticises them of being xenophobic, racist, splitters, defeatist, whatever. No change here, then.

And remember: the only way to defeat the BNP is to ally yourselves with right-wing, misogynist, religious bullies, who oppose everything you stand for. Thanks for your vote!

Ian

Interesting? Really?

02.06.2004 09:32

"..to see Brett Lock of 'OutRage' dissing Respect on Indymedia......again!"

Yes, most interesting. Perhaps you could point to any other occasion where I've "dissed" Respect because I certainly can't remember any.

Besides, what's so special about Respect anyway - are they beyond "dissing" and if so, perhaps they shouldn't be doing things they deserve to be called on. Ad hominem attacks on legitimate criticism and hostility to questions is the sign of political immaturity and a troubling totalitarian tendency. Why not simply address the the issue, huh?

Brett Lock

Racism

02.06.2004 11:51

I cannot believe the amount of racism on this thread.

To say that the SWP are working with these horrible people is an outrage. I can't remember all your lovely adjectives of Muslims, but it is not short of Kilroy-Silks observation.

Muslims are a persecuted sector of this society. And the SWP and socialists aim at working with, and standing up for, people who are oppressed. And RESPECT is aiming at giving these people, as well as anti-war activists and socialists, a voice in the mainstream.

respect

I Won't Vote for Respect

02.06.2004 11:58

I won't vote for Respect and here is why:

A political party that makes an alliance with ANY religiuos organisation (be it Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindi or whatever) will NEVER get my vote.

Religion has for coutless decades caused strife and suffering with its doctirnes about women, homosexuals, and other religions. Their fixed inflexible ideologies have no place in the 21st Century, religion is a tool used to divide and conquer, from the crusades, to the caste system of India, to the slavery of black people, to the modern day fundamentalism of George Bush and Osama Bin Laden.

Fuck all religions and start thinking for yourself instead of following our religious leaders...

There is no god, just us!

Miss Point

Racism?

02.06.2004 12:30

Look, if you're going to try to censor people by accusing them of 'racism', the least you can do is to explain yourself.

What race are Muslims?

Are they the same race as Buddhists, Scientologists and Wiccans?

Are Black African Muslims the same race as Chinese Muslims?

By all means watch out for and confront Islamophobes, but don't go screaming racism every time you hear the word 'Muslim' because it detracts attention from genuine problems.

rick

Um, um... amnesia

02.06.2004 12:53

You "can't remember" all the "lovely adjectives" used by "racists" because they aren't any. It is franky pathetic to object to words you apparently "can't remember" when they would be in front of you on your computer screen - if they were there at all.

Brett Lock

Predictable as always

02.06.2004 13:17

I was wondering how long it would take before someone cried racism. It has nothing to do with that, it's about outdated bigotry and intolerant religious beliefs influencing political policy.

Andrew

by deception.....

02.06.2004 13:56

Sounds like 'Outrage' ought to change their name to 'Inflame'

What ever next ?

Huh?

02.06.2004 14:16

"Sounds like 'Outrage' ought to change their name to 'Inflame'"

What's this issue got to do with OutRage!?

Brett Lock

Respect, Muslims and sexism: questioning assumptions

02.06.2004 15:32

(report from Respect / PJP meeting in Brum)

On Sunday 16th May John Rees and Salma Yaqoob spoke to people about RESPECT in a joint meeting with local People's Justice Party and received overwhelming support and pledges of votes at a meeting in Alum Rock Birmingham. The meeting at which the documentary 'Persons of Interest' was shown was so large that there were over a hundred people who could not get into the venue!

In the discussion one Muslim man stood up and attempted to heckle by shouting that international issues such as the war should not be discussed and that women should not be on the platform. Salma Yaqoob responded by stating that local issues were linked to the international ones (our taxes pay for the bombs which rain down on others) and that it was the duty of everyone – men and women to stand up against injustice. Anything less – from an Islamic perspective - was cowardly and hypocritical.

The man left, and the meeting continued with renewed vigour – such interventions help to sharpen the discussion and debate which has begun to take place – not least within the Muslim community itself. Many old attitudes and misrepresentations of Islam are thus being challenged, with overwhelming support for a confident and inclusive faith response.

reporter

ignore muslim invitation? like fxxk

02.06.2004 15:36

the first time i ever put my foot inside a mosque was 2 weeks ago in streatham. RESPECT members spoke to 150 people men and women.we were intived into their mosque on their terms.

we could have told them to fxxk off and say i refused to discuss politics because of the segarated policy. instead we said thank u for inviting us ,we talk about imperialism, we talk about how we fight back against new labours racist policies and talk about the RESPECT campaign pointing to the fact that we have excellent muslim and non muslim female candaidates and we are proved to be working with our muslim brothers and sisters .

if we did anything else i would have been quite rightly been accused a sectrian.

i was told that in most mosques men and women sit seperately whilst having prayers, in this meeting they sat together. i would still have enjoyed the meeting even if it was segerated.

the point is that muslim people are coming fast to being the most opressed people in britain. the shit they receive not only comes from the likes of new labour but also so called liberial, lefties, anti racist and people who read indymedia.

in france some parts of the left called for the banning of the hijab ,in december that will be reality. this will increase anti-muslim feeling further and will force segeration to the women who refuse to attend school. thanks a bunch.

if we in britain slag muslims people religion they will quite rightly tell us to fuk off. we need to be united. the fact is their are muslim women who are in the for front of the RESPECT campaign they are standing as candidate (which my mess up your racist prejuicices) and have the support from the male family ,friends and community.

i think brett and the like can go fuk there racist stereotypes.

red letter

Racist stereotypes?

02.06.2004 16:21

"i think brett and the like can go fuk there racist stereotypes."

And what "racist stereotypes" are you talking about? Blah blah blah this, blah blah blah racist that.. but not a single example cited to back up your statement. Why? because there aren't any.

Brett Lock

answer pleaseer

02.06.2004 16:35

Why cannot anyone from Leeds give an explanation as to why the meeting was segregated?

Actually I thought that MAB was not actually a member of Respect but said they would support it which is OK

I am not a racist and am tolerant of people with religious beliefs whether Christian Muslim Buddhist Jewish or whatever however their religious beliefs should not dictate the policies of respect

The report someone gave of a meeting in which Respect were invited to talk to the mosque is ok
but the Leeds meeting was a Respect meeting

This is sooo depressing

The left has always only paid lip service to womens rights.This is why loads of women left SWP and other groups years ago.

What would have happened if anyone ,man or woman had objected to the segregation?

I respect the beliefs of Muslims but as far as I know it is only at prayer in the mosque that segregation is the norm.What do Muslims think about this issue?Was the segregation because some of the women would not have been allowed to go to the meeting by their fathers,husbands and what has this to do with Islam?

a woman

Hidden Agendas

02.06.2004 16:57

Honestly, you guys should watch Monty Pythons "The Life of Brian", you might learn something!!

Respect hold a meeting in Leeds in a Muslim community centre. 400 people attend. 2 women speak on the platform -oh but it's more important to focus on the fact that the audience were segregated on gender. Do you think Respect should have cancelled this meeting because of religious sexism?? Get real!!

Let's get a few things straight: Respect are holding political meetings in mosques and Muslim community centres accross the UK. Now, correct me if I am wrong but NO political party has managed to acheive this yet in UK history. Are any other political parties acheiving this?? I think not! This is a remarkable acheivement and should be aplauded by you people, you know, credit where credit is due??

Also, Respect is not a political party, it is an electoral coalition. Any electoral coalition will be a political mish mash. It is no more a political party than the indymedia centre is and beleive me, I have read a few homophobic and dodgy remarks on the IMC of late!! So do we now boycot the IMC and start some big smeer campaign against it?? Stupid suggestion eh??!!

Another point goes right back to the original point I made: Indymedia attracts various people from different backgrounds but unfortunately many appear to thrive on simply criticising other "political groups". This discussion proves this -there are many important postings on this website yet this one has attracted the most (I counted 29 last!). Most of the postings are of this nature too! There are clearly people operating on this website who aim to smeer Respect. This is very sad I think, but it also reflects another unfortunate aspect of left wing politics. Sectarianism. How can we attract anyone to left politics when we spend all our time slagging each other off?? A very sad state of affairs if you ask me (I think several people involved in this debate have agendas of their own too, but won't admit to them)!! SHOULD WE NOT BE DISCUSSIONG HOW WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AND CARRY THE MOVEMENT FORWARD INSTEAD?? Or did Seatle/Genoa never happen??

I still think the original posting amounts to nothing more than a smeer campaign and that it should not have a place on the IMC. I thought we were above all this tabloid crap??

Just for the record, I am not a member of Respect but I do think they have acheived much more than any of the mainstream parties could dream of, in terms of getting their message accross. Respect will get the Muslim/ant-war vote and they deserve credit for this. I wonder if all the other people involved in this debate could be honest about their political agendas too??

Oh and NO MORE SMEER CAMPAIGNS!

Leave this for the gutter press!!

NUFF SAID!

Goliath

Evidence

02.06.2004 17:38

"the only way to defeat the BNP is to ally yourselves with right-wing, misogynist, religious bullies, who oppose everything you stand for"

Here is the evidence. And Mr Lock, I couldn't remember because when you right a response, you don't have the other posts on your screen...

Respect voter

Evidence? Of what?

02.06.2004 17:55

"the only way to defeat the BNP is to ally yourselves with right-wing, misogynist, religious bullies, who oppose everything you stand for"

Um, kindly explain to us how those are "racist" adjectives.

Brett Lock

...

02.06.2004 18:06

because claiming that all Muslims are right-wing etc etc IS racist!

...

Reply to Goliath

02.06.2004 18:12

Goliath asks "should the meeting have been cancelled because of the segregation" my answer would be -maybe.

I would like to know what if any attempts were made by the platform speakers to oppose this forced segregation -none. What comments did the platform speakers make about this in their speeches -none.

It seems that Respect is happy for this to occur if it means they can address a larger meeting than normal.

Maybe after trying their hardest to argue with the meeting organisers that anyone be allowed to sit where they want, but failing to get a result the platform speakers should have refused to take part, but they never bothered to ask about this.

I ask again what would the speakers have done if the room had been forcibly divided on the basis of race, religion or sexuality? What would you have done if you'd been at the meeting?

Coming on the heels of the Birmingham leaflet, the anti-abortion stance, and the refusal to stand for open borders this sort of pandering to backward religious bigotry suggest that only straight-white-men are entitled to respect.

Come on respect -disassociate yourselves from these ugly incidents. One press release would win you many more votes on the left than your bland accomadation to the mosques

Gustav

fuck'n brilliant

02.06.2004 19:12

to see such a discussion here, real passions and mostly relevant stuff, wish that some of the more sensible questions were answered though - how did this situation come about and did anyone object at the time?

another woman - and no fan of 'respect' (swp/george galloway's survival party)

Confusing race and religion

02.06.2004 19:50

"because claiming that all Muslims are right-wing etc etc IS racist!"

Firstly, no one said "all" Muslims - you added the "all" yourself for rhetorical effect.

Secondly, and perhaps most importatntly. Islam is a religion, not a race. A religion is a codified set of beliefs which should be subject to scrutiny and criticism - in the same way a political philosophy or other manifesto is.

Thirdly, in common with most other religions, particularly the so-called "Abrahamic" ones, Islam IS conservative on most social issues: women's rights, gay rights, etc. It is hardly "progressive", as this instance of gender segregation shows. Hardly a left-wing value.

Still, if the original post is a "slur" (which would mean it was substantially untrue) then it is Respect's duty to answer the allegations and refute them rather than attacking those who question their stance based on the information provided by the original poster.

- Did Respect go along with gender segregation even though it was a political, not a religious event?

- Are they against the 'pro-choice' position, a women's right to choose an abortion?

- Did Respect co-publish/endorse a homophobic pamphlet?

Just some simple answers and clarifications will do. There is no need to attack the people asking the questions with ludicrous accusations... unless you think the answers themselves will be damning.

Brett Lock

...

02.06.2004 21:14

Look. He said that "aligning yourselves with right-wing blah blah".

Now, that therefore means that he thinks that those people, Muslims, are right-wing?!?

I personally find that very offensive. And I personally don't know what happened at this meeting, so I cannot comment on this issue.

...

"Muslim" is not a race

03.06.2004 08:41

"Muslim" is not a race - it's a religion. Like most religions it is neither liberal nor progressive, hence the poster was perfectly reasonable in using the term "right wing" which, as far as I know, is not a racial epithet.

Brett Lock

get real!

03.06.2004 09:49

Come off it, if you heard someone saying 'I hate f***ing Muslims' you wouldn't suspect them of being racist in any way? Stop nit-picking and be serious!

type

This is serious

03.06.2004 10:19

The poster's comment was not "I hate f***ing Muslims" but that Islam - the religion - is right-wing. This thread is about the gender-segregation demanded by the Muslim group on *religious* grounds (certainly not a left-wing value). All criticism has been directed at, and in the context of, Islam as a religion, not as a colloquialism for race. These spurious cries of "racism" are a distraction from a very serious issue: does a party sacrifice it's pro-women and pro-gay stances in order to attract support from a particular religious group. "Race" does not even come into it.

Brett Lock

Diversion tactics

03.06.2004 18:02

This has been going for days, and STILL 'Respect' supporters are refusing to address the actual issue at hand, using diversion tacticts to avoid answering the important questions

Andrew

...

03.06.2004 21:10

I am a Respect supporter, but I don't live anywhere near where this happened, and so cannot comment on this. If you are so worried (I don't know why you should be, because you are not going to vote for them), email Respect at

office@respectcoalition.org.

...

on the swp

10.06.2004 16:30

While the SWP's opportunism has long since ceased to amaze, it baffles me that its apologists on a left-wing website are so quick to publicly abandon the tradition they claim as their own. It is true that Muslims are a persecuted minority in this country, is it not true that the only adequate leftist response to the persecution of minorities is to highlight, not the particularity of said minorities, but the shared 'persecuted' status of the majority, the working class?
At least in the seventies the SWP had the balls to split punk over the issue of racism and facsism, now it can't confront the reactionary tendencies in ancient religions! The problems posed by the BNP are not confronted but merely inverted by the actions of the Socialist Bhurka's Party.

Danny

Historic Election Results

11.06.2004 20:00

Well well all you leeds and bradford Naysayers. We've proved you wrong big style.

The votes are in. German on the Assembly, Galloway and Rees to Brussels, Kath Owens in the town hall.

Thankyou and good night.

Lindsay Bhurka

Global IMC Network