O'Keefe's P10K another Cult Trip
Hakim N. Chainik | 07.07.2004 03:13 | Anti-militarism | London
We ( Ken O'Keefe's P10K)are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action....
O'Keefe's P10K another Cult Trip
by hakim • Tuesday July 06, 2004 at 01:26 PM
We ( Ken O'Keefe's P10K)are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action....
O’Keefe Deported
Printed From: P10K (Palestine 10,000)
Forum Name: Notices and Announcements
Forum Discription:
URL:
http://www.p10k.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41
Printed Date: 06 July 2004 at 4:19pm
Topic: O’Keefe Deported
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Subject: O’Keefe Deported
Date Posted: 03 July 2004 at 9:12pm
WHY HAVEN'T THERE BEEN ANY UPDATES TO THIS ARTICLE, NOW THAT KEN O'KEEFE HAS BEEN DEPORTED?
Is the the P10K Project doomed because Ken won't be allowed into Israel again?
I'm not sure I'd want to be "led" by someone who didn't recognize a "border control sign in English." Isn't he lucky he didn't get his ass shot off?
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Haaretz June 28, 2004
American peace activist ordered deported
The Tel Aviv District Court ordered American leftist activist Ken O'Keefe deported yesterday. O'Keefe was caught trying to cross the separation fence into the Gaza Strip near the settlement of Dugit after arriving in Israel three weeks ago.
District Court Judge Sara Gadot determined, based on intelligence reports, that O'Keefe was a security risk and had violated military orders by infiltrating an area controled by the army after he had been warned against it and stated his intention to retry.
The judge also determined that O'Keefe had ignored a sign in English indicating the location of the border. O'Keefe claimed that the border was not a recognized international frontier and the sign was misleading.
O'Keefe served in the Marines in the 1991 Gulf War and in Iraq, where he said his experiences had turned him into a peace activist. He said he had organized hundreds of Americans and citizens of other Western countries to act as "human shields" in Iraq. O'Keefe said he had come to Israel at the beginning of the 2003 Iraq war to advance peace between Israelis and Palestinians. His attorney, Yael Barda of Gush Shalom, noted that although her client was eccentric, he was not a security risk.
Replies:
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 5:11am
He didn't "not recognise" it he ignored it.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 12:58pm
Recognized or ignored in this instance obviously amount to the same thing.
No doubt the Israeli authorities interpreted that attitude as contempt for the existence of the state of Israel or as the misguided actions of someone who may be a "few bricks short of a load." Either way, our "univesal citizen" got deported.
And he and his "advisors" have had suspiciously little to say about it since then.
So to date he's been deported from Jordan and now from Israel. Chances are that from now on Ken will not be allowed to pass through broder control of either country. If he's unable to set foot in either country then what happens to this PK10 project?
Two more questions. What is Ken O'Keefe using for a passport these days, and what does he and this project do for money?
These may sound like critical questions, but I believe that they are important to have answered before I commit joining your movement.
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 3:02pm
hakimnchainik wrote:
Recognized or ignored in this instance obviously amount to the same thing.
Well one amounts to stupidity while the other amounts to principle. Hardly the same thing.
hakimnchainik wrote:
And he and his "advisors" have had suspiciously little to say about it since then.
I'm at a loss to imagine why this could be deemed suspcious. He's probably out celebrating his release from prison.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 4:55pm
Well if the "principle" as you put it was to demonstrate contempt of the borders of the State of israel then what was O'Keefe trying to prove?
If the advertised intention of PK10 is to seek "justice" for Palestinians, and the Israelis are presumably who O'Keefe and this "movement" are trying to get leniency from, then I must suggest that contempt is not a good founding premise of attempted negotiation.
If anything, this puts anyone who follows in Ken's path at a distinct disadvantage if they should try to use Israel as a entry point and have it be known that they are part of PK10.
Or, maybe this project is like the International Solidarity Movement which actually instructs their people on how to lie to Israeli authorities and so enter that country under false premises.
Who can tell me about the financing of this organization and the degree of contact it shares with Hamas and the Al Aqsa Brigades?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 7:16pm
I think this is a great deal harder and messier than Ken visualized it. The outlook of Israelis is not so purely about security as they wish us to believe, and their government clearly is not impressed with Ken's plan for Israeli security. They're not going to trust Palestinian-sympathetic essentially-non-Jew outsiders.
I don't know how or if we'll get into Palestine. I know we can be a bother trying to do so. And that, rather than actually getting into Palestine, probably is a more fitting objective. Also, I know that their repelling of us will cause still more decline in our regard for them - a positive outcome, because it brings us to a more accurate understanding of what we're dealing with.
There is great value in interfering with them, but beyond that expect the venture to be unscripted (and dangerous). As with many projects, not all the potential benefits are well foreseen. If not much else, it would be a convention in Jordan of justice-seekers from around the world, with many opportunites for interviews, solidarity-raising and economy-boost-through-spending-our-money* with Palestinian refugees in Jordan. And Israel will know - and be to some tiny or otherwise degree unsettled - that we're there.
*At least donate to the project, whether you go or not, so someone can.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 9:20pm
Let's face it. Ken's failed attempt to sneak across a border has compromised the future of the entire project. His open contempt of the sovereignty of Israel blows whatever good will the project could have expected there.
Another "small problem" is the ambigous descriptor: "Occupied Palestinian Territory." This can be interpreted as anything from the disputed lands seized and occupied by Israel in the 1967 conflict to Israel itself.
Hamas and Hezbollah, both extremist political movements that openly declare violent warfare as part of their modus, use the phrase "Occupied Palestinian Territory" to refer to ALL of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Therefore it appears to outsiders that the premise of P10K is exactly the same as these kinds of violent organizations. ...the violent destruction of Israel and the liquidation, pillaging, raping, etc. of this country's inhabitants.
Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement.
It's been a week since Ken's deportation. It's very strange that there's no news. Don't you think so too?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 11:14pm
"Ken's failed attempt to sneak across a border has compromised the future of the entire project. His open contempt of the sovereignty of Israel blows whatever good will the project could have expected there.'
To persuade the Israeli government that they should go along with Ken's plan is a monumental undertaking, and I think it could only be achieved at all by way of winning over first the Israeli peace community, then more and more of the Israeli public. So at best it would be a very long process. The attempt to walk into Gaza isn't a pivotal mistake, because it is just a characteristic expression of the whole project. The whole project implies that the Israelis are, to put it mildly, mishandling Gaza (and the rest of the Occupied Territories), that their policies pertaining thereto are unworthy, and so their ideas of access to Gaza are unworthy. But the Israeli government's very pursuit of Gaza withdrawal shows they recognize their managerial failure with Gaza (at least).
Gandhi walked to the sea in India to make salt, which was clearly a gesture of defiance and non-recognition of the rules of the British. But this is how to express that the rules lack legitimacy, and that the oppressor needs to rethink policy fundamentally.
"Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement."
Well, a different kind of peace movement, more a peace treaty 'movement' - but that's how wars are usually ended. If you don't get the actual warring parties to the table, you are not having effective negotiation.
"It's been a week since Ken's deportation. It's very strange that there's no news. Don't you think so too?"
I think so too. I have found in P10K a bold, but fledgling project (with a stupendous website that implies a much more developed, mature operation). When a month ago I suggested that the project needed to provide interested persons with more information, I was invited to go get it and I did!
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 11:36pm
Win wrote:
"...The attempt to walk into Gaza isn't a pivotal mistake, because it is just a characteristic expression of the whole project. The whole project implies that the Israelis are, to put it mildly, mishandling Gaza (and the rest of the Occupied Territories), that their policies pertaining thereto are unworthy, and so their ideas of access to Gaza are unworthy. But the Israeli government's very pursuit of Gaza withdrawal shows they recognize their managerial failure with Gaza (at least)...."
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If the (unsuccessful) attempt to unofficially penetrate Gaza defines the ethos of P10k (which broadcasts on the internet how open it is) then O'Keefe and this project, have in my view, a very large credibility problem.
You're either playing things above board, or you're a guerrilla activist. The two concepts, in the public eye are mutually incompatible.
Also, I'm concerned about the image that Ken projects. He comes off looking like some kind of "wild" cult leader charging, tilting at windmills like a modern day Don Quixote. The garish tattoos add to the effect. In LA, where I live, street gangsters like the Crips and the Bloods get teardrops tattooed under their eyes to signify that they have killed an opponent.
Add to this Ken's "photo-ops" with the likes of Arafat. This, I think, was also either a bad mistake, or a definitive gesture of solidarity with a fading political figure who has done more harm than good to the palestinian cause. To be polite, Arafat is obviously a brigand, a crook, a mass murderer and has been an oppressor of his own people. His wife and daughter don't even live in Palestine. They live in Paris! Arafat has stolen millions and millions of dollars in aid money from his own people..and not to better their fates!
Finally, you may have misread the Israeli move to attempt to disengage from gaza. It's unlikely that at this point they would do so for humanitarian reasons. Rather it's probably more likely that it's a consolidation move.
I hope this helps.
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 1:22am
"You're either playing things above board, or you're a guerrilla activist. The two concepts, in the public eye are mutually incompatible."
Well, what was Gandhi? A big troublemaker at the time, to the British. Only after it all did he broadly become a hero. And as far as bizarre appearance, a loincloth, of all things!
"with a fading political figure who has done more harm than good to the palestinian cause."
Arafat has definitely done more good than harm, whatever else can be said about him.
"It's unlikely that at this point they would do so for humanitarian reasons."
I certainly don't wish to imply they'd do it for humanitarian reasons. They simply find cost exceeding benefit. As the British came to see India, it's an over-extension without justifying reward.
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 4:16am
hakimnchainik wrote:
Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement.
You do not get an agreement from somebody without talking to them. If the Israeli government was interested in peace it could learn something from Ken. Why are you here hakimnchainik? Have you read the notice on forum_posts.asp?TID=26&PN=1&FID=2&PR=3 - trolling and the purpose of this forum ? And why do you have a username that means 'to talk rubbish' in Yiddish?
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 12:03pm
Dear Mr. or Ms. administrator, and the readers of this forum,
my postings were not "trolling," unless that is defined (by you) as asking specific questions concerning the activities and philosophy of this project.
If I was to choose to risk my life and finances to join this "crusade," don't you think these are reasonable questions to ask? If the participants of this forum are not allowed to ask questions, like "What happened to the project leader since he was deported a week ago?"
then you're not looking for participants in P10K, you're looking for blind cult followers.
Chainik is a Turkish name. I happen to be descended from Turkish ancestry. Are you making fun of my ethnicity?
Hakim
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 2:19pm
If you read the note on trolling you will see that the purpose of this forum is not to debate the fundamental strategy of P10K.
Since joining this forum you have done little but seed doubt and offer thinly veiled accusations about the integrity of this action and its organisers. And you've done so in a combative manner.
Those of us who organised the Iraqi human shield action, and who are now involved in P10K, know only too well the damage to be caused by those who purport to be on your side but are there only to offer barriers. This factor was the single biggest barrier to the human shield action and from my experience your style of debate and demeanor says you are probably one of these people.
We are not interested in having pessimists around to explain every reason why we won't succeed. We were told by literally hundreds of people that the Iraqi human shield action would be impossible to pull off. The reason we were able to pull it off is because we chose to ignore those people. If your aim is to seed doubt and pessimism we will quite happily ignore you too. The pros of ignoring such people outweigh by a large margin the cons of stiffling debate.
As for your name, hakn a chainik translates literally 'to chop a teapot' in Yiddish, meaning to talk rubbish. I'm sure you can understand my curiosity.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 2:39pm
Admin wrote:
If you read the note on trolling you will see that the purpose of this forum is not to debate the fundamental strategy of P10K.
That's fine. And I apologize. I guess I was out of line to ask what happened to Ken o'Keefe, who seems to have disappeared after he was deported.
Since joining this forum you have done little but seed doubt and offer thinly veiled accusations about the integrity of this action and its organisers. And you've done so in a combative manner.
Please Explain combative manner. I didn't receive any answers, therefore I was compelled to assume that this information was either being witheld without explanation or that Mr. O'Keefe has indeed disappeared and the project is over and I should make other plans for September 2004.
Those of us who organised the Iraqi human shield action, and who are now involved in P10K, know only too well the damage to be caused by those who purport to be on your side but are there only to offer barriers. This factor was the single biggest barrier to the human shield action and from my experience your style of debate and demeanor says you are probably one of these people.
If not following along blindly is a threat to your enterprise, then you are most welcome to your dogma; and I and I suppose others have been forewarned that this is nothing like a consensus-type peace movement. Nothing Gandhi like about it either.
I heard that most people bailed out of the human shield thing because 1) Saddam's people insisted that they guard "Strategic facilities" that were likely to get hit and 2) Because Ken got a little too Napoleonic. It must have been pretty stressful.
We are not interested in having pessimists around to explain every reason why we won't succeed. We were told by literally hundreds of people that the Iraqi human shield action would be impossible to pull off. The reason we were able to pull it off is because we chose to ignore those people. If your aim is to seed doubt and pessimism we will quite happily ignore you too. The pros of ignoring such people outweigh by a large margin the cons of stiffling debate.
Whatever. I just am reluctant to join or support movements with secretive agendas and half-thought out plans. If Suggesting that "sneaking across borders harms the credibility of P10K" is a threat to your scene, then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.
As for your name, hakn a chainik translates literally 'to chop a teapot' in Yiddish, meaning to talk rubbish. I'm sure you can understand my curiosity.
Whatever. Just don't give me a hard time because I'm Turkish American. If you're paranoid, that's not my problem. I hope you don't tease anybody else about their ethnicity or the way their names sound. For instance somebody who wants to join the movement may be from Phuket Thailand. In phonetic English it's pronounced "Fuck it." Would you give someone a hard time about that?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: deian
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 3:49pm
well, if you don't like it, us, the group, it's aims or ken then go away. cuz the only person round here who sounds paranoid is you.
there are plenty of other forums to gripe and moan on. just no this one eh?
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If you're not pissed off,
you're not paying attention!
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 4:50pm
hakimnchainik wrote:
I guess I was out of line to ask what happened to Ken o'Keefe, who seems to have disappeared after he was deported.
What was out of line was your insinuation that there was something other than wholesome about Ken's inability to jump when you said jump.
Quote:
Please Explain combative manner. I didn't receive any answers, therefore I was compelled to assume that this information was either being witheld without explanation or that Mr. O'Keefe has indeed disappeared and the project is over and I should make other plans for September 2004.
Maybe you should practice a little more patience.
Quote:
If not following along blindly is a threat to your enterprise, then you are most welcome to your dogma; and I and I suppose others have been forewarned that this is nothing like a consensus-type peace movement. Nothing Gandhi like about it either.
Adapting to a situation is anything but dogma. We learnt much from the human shield action, the primary lesson being the ability to identify and shut down those whose only skill is to get in the way and spread pessimism. We are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not. This is a strength, not a weakness. Take it or leave.
Quote:
I heard that most people bailed out of the human shield thing because 1) Saddam's people insisted that they guard "Strategic facilities" that were likely to get hit and 2) Because Ken got a little too Napoleonic. It must have been pretty stressful.
People left for all sorts of reasons. Many people stayed of course, and all those that did voluntarily chose which sites they were stationed at. Of course the whole idea was to protect sites that were likely to get hit! All sites were targetted and bombed in the 1991 Gulf War (two water plants, two power plants, a food silo, a communications facility and an oil refinery) while only the communications facility was bombed this time round (the day after the human shields pulled out of it). Saddam's henchman were nothing compared to some of the screwed up Westerners we had with us.
In all likelihood you heard that Ken went Mao on us from the very people I'm am talking about; misguided Western liberal moralisers who want nothing more than to improve their resume or sooth their conscience, usually by coming in on the coattails of other people's hard work and telling them they're doing it all wrong. Again, to suggest Ken, the instigator of the action, was a barrier is something approaching lunacy.
Quote:
Whatever. I just am reluctant to join or support movements with secretive agendas and half-thought out plans. If Suggesting that "sneaking across borders harms the credibility of P10K" is a threat to your scene, then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.
If such an innocent suggestion was all that you were offering we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you're reluctant to join that's fine, there are plenty of good apples for every bad apple. Just take your insinuations and pessimism elsewhere.
Quote:
Whatever. Just don't give me a hard time because I'm Turkish American. If you're paranoid, that's not my problem. I hope you don't tease anybody else about their ethnicity or the way their names sound. For instance somebody who wants to join the movement may be from Phuket Thailand. In phonetic English it's pronounced "Fuck it." Would you give someone a hard time about that?
I'm not in the least bit interested in this level of debate.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 5:36pm
Admin wrote:
What was out of line was your insinuation that there was something other than wholesome about Ken's inability to jump when you said jump.
If Ken's OK, then what's the big deal? What's there to hide?
We are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not.
Thank you.
This was the first clear policy statement that I have received in response to my inquiry. This is not a consensus peace group. One must swallow whole everything that one is told, presumably by Ken or his designated authority person(s), in this case an anonymous URL administrator, or leave. Democracy is not an option. Now I understand more clearly. Better to find out now than in an Israeli or Jordanian jail.
Saddam's henchman were nothing compared to some of the screwed up Westerners we had with us.
Then I must suggest that either your "pre-screening" was faulty, or that something serious happened to precipitate a mutiny, which I think is what you have just described.
....misguided Western liberal moralisers...
Hey, I agree! No room for liberals at this party!!! Phew!
...If you're reluctant to join that's fine, there are plenty of good apples for every bad apple. Just take your insinuations and pessimism elsewhere....
I'm Western, I'm liberal. Obviously that makes me a bad apple in your books. I can live with that.
Finally, Is the principle political orientation here anarchistic (International Socialist) or totalitarian? (Baathist? Hamas? Hezbollah?)
Cheers,
Hakim
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 4:49am
You know I've learnt how to identify your type but I don't think I'll ever understand why you consider your unconstructive opinions to be so important that those actively doing something should drop everything and listen intently to all your criticisms and pessimism.
If you don't like what you see go find something else. Better yet, go start something else. People who are getting on with it have got far better things to do than spend hours arguing with the likes of yourself.
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Posted By: freethepeeps
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 5:29am
Hakimnchainak is pro-Israeli and does not appear to understand the concept of justice for Palestinians.
I want to make one thing very clear, if you ask people to lay their lives on the line you HAVE to listen to what they say.............
admin wrote:
There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not.
If thats the offical line then I'm out of here.......
Can you confirm please?
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Until all are free, none are free
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 8:31am
Yes it's quite simple really. You either agree with the core strategy, in which case you might join, or you disagree with the core strategy, in which case you wouldn't join and you'd go do something else (you certainly wouldn't bug those who agree with core strategy). Bit like many decisions in life really. Couldn't be simpler. Bye.
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 8:49am
freethepeeps wrote:
I want to make one thing very clear, if you ask people to lay their lives on the line you HAVE to listen to what they say.............
Who says P10K is asking unconstructive people to join this action? If you're unconstructive you're not being asked to do anything but go away.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: deian
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 9:59am
read this my friend. it deals with Israelis who recently were demonstrating with Palestinians with regard to the 'security fence'.
I think this applies to ken and all in P10K.
"The Israelis who face the army went to the West Bank because
they know there is a law that is higher than the army's laws of
closed military zones: there is international law, which
forbids ethnic cleansing, and there is the law of conscience.
But what brings them back, day after day, is the new covenant
that has been struck between the peoples of this land, a pact
of fraternity and friendship between Israelis and Palestinians
who love life, the land, the evening breeze. They know that it
is possible to live differently on this land."
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If you're not pissed off,
you're not paying attention!
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 10:22am
Nice one.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 10:45am
Speaking as someone who helped organise the human shield action I think one of our mistakes was not making clear what we wanted to do and how it was intended to be achieved. This flaw was the catalyst for untold conflict and endless debate. If people had been clear about what they were joining much of this near-fatal conflict would have been avoided.
The admin is right in saying the non-debatability of the core strategy is a strength rather than a weakness.
Of course you are under no obligation to join P10K, or stay joined for that matter. Just please do everybody a favour and leave the rest of us to get on with it.
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by hakim • Tuesday July 06, 2004 at 01:26 PM
We ( Ken O'Keefe's P10K)are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action....
O’Keefe Deported
Printed From: P10K (Palestine 10,000)
Forum Name: Notices and Announcements
Forum Discription:
URL:
http://www.p10k.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41 Printed Date: 06 July 2004 at 4:19pm
Topic: O’Keefe Deported
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Subject: O’Keefe Deported
Date Posted: 03 July 2004 at 9:12pm
WHY HAVEN'T THERE BEEN ANY UPDATES TO THIS ARTICLE, NOW THAT KEN O'KEEFE HAS BEEN DEPORTED?
Is the the P10K Project doomed because Ken won't be allowed into Israel again?
I'm not sure I'd want to be "led" by someone who didn't recognize a "border control sign in English." Isn't he lucky he didn't get his ass shot off?
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Haaretz June 28, 2004
American peace activist ordered deported
The Tel Aviv District Court ordered American leftist activist Ken O'Keefe deported yesterday. O'Keefe was caught trying to cross the separation fence into the Gaza Strip near the settlement of Dugit after arriving in Israel three weeks ago.
District Court Judge Sara Gadot determined, based on intelligence reports, that O'Keefe was a security risk and had violated military orders by infiltrating an area controled by the army after he had been warned against it and stated his intention to retry.
The judge also determined that O'Keefe had ignored a sign in English indicating the location of the border. O'Keefe claimed that the border was not a recognized international frontier and the sign was misleading.
O'Keefe served in the Marines in the 1991 Gulf War and in Iraq, where he said his experiences had turned him into a peace activist. He said he had organized hundreds of Americans and citizens of other Western countries to act as "human shields" in Iraq. O'Keefe said he had come to Israel at the beginning of the 2003 Iraq war to advance peace between Israelis and Palestinians. His attorney, Yael Barda of Gush Shalom, noted that although her client was eccentric, he was not a security risk.
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 5:11am
He didn't "not recognise" it he ignored it.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 12:58pm
Recognized or ignored in this instance obviously amount to the same thing.
No doubt the Israeli authorities interpreted that attitude as contempt for the existence of the state of Israel or as the misguided actions of someone who may be a "few bricks short of a load." Either way, our "univesal citizen" got deported.
And he and his "advisors" have had suspiciously little to say about it since then.
So to date he's been deported from Jordan and now from Israel. Chances are that from now on Ken will not be allowed to pass through broder control of either country. If he's unable to set foot in either country then what happens to this PK10 project?
Two more questions. What is Ken O'Keefe using for a passport these days, and what does he and this project do for money?
These may sound like critical questions, but I believe that they are important to have answered before I commit joining your movement.
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 3:02pm
hakimnchainik wrote:
Recognized or ignored in this instance obviously amount to the same thing.
Well one amounts to stupidity while the other amounts to principle. Hardly the same thing.
hakimnchainik wrote:
And he and his "advisors" have had suspiciously little to say about it since then.
I'm at a loss to imagine why this could be deemed suspcious. He's probably out celebrating his release from prison.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 4:55pm
Well if the "principle" as you put it was to demonstrate contempt of the borders of the State of israel then what was O'Keefe trying to prove?
If the advertised intention of PK10 is to seek "justice" for Palestinians, and the Israelis are presumably who O'Keefe and this "movement" are trying to get leniency from, then I must suggest that contempt is not a good founding premise of attempted negotiation.
If anything, this puts anyone who follows in Ken's path at a distinct disadvantage if they should try to use Israel as a entry point and have it be known that they are part of PK10.
Or, maybe this project is like the International Solidarity Movement which actually instructs their people on how to lie to Israeli authorities and so enter that country under false premises.
Who can tell me about the financing of this organization and the degree of contact it shares with Hamas and the Al Aqsa Brigades?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 7:16pm
I think this is a great deal harder and messier than Ken visualized it. The outlook of Israelis is not so purely about security as they wish us to believe, and their government clearly is not impressed with Ken's plan for Israeli security. They're not going to trust Palestinian-sympathetic essentially-non-Jew outsiders.
I don't know how or if we'll get into Palestine. I know we can be a bother trying to do so. And that, rather than actually getting into Palestine, probably is a more fitting objective. Also, I know that their repelling of us will cause still more decline in our regard for them - a positive outcome, because it brings us to a more accurate understanding of what we're dealing with.
There is great value in interfering with them, but beyond that expect the venture to be unscripted (and dangerous). As with many projects, not all the potential benefits are well foreseen. If not much else, it would be a convention in Jordan of justice-seekers from around the world, with many opportunites for interviews, solidarity-raising and economy-boost-through-spending-our-money* with Palestinian refugees in Jordan. And Israel will know - and be to some tiny or otherwise degree unsettled - that we're there.
*At least donate to the project, whether you go or not, so someone can.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 9:20pm
Let's face it. Ken's failed attempt to sneak across a border has compromised the future of the entire project. His open contempt of the sovereignty of Israel blows whatever good will the project could have expected there.
Another "small problem" is the ambigous descriptor: "Occupied Palestinian Territory." This can be interpreted as anything from the disputed lands seized and occupied by Israel in the 1967 conflict to Israel itself.
Hamas and Hezbollah, both extremist political movements that openly declare violent warfare as part of their modus, use the phrase "Occupied Palestinian Territory" to refer to ALL of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Therefore it appears to outsiders that the premise of P10K is exactly the same as these kinds of violent organizations. ...the violent destruction of Israel and the liquidation, pillaging, raping, etc. of this country's inhabitants.
Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement.
It's been a week since Ken's deportation. It's very strange that there's no news. Don't you think so too?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 11:14pm
"Ken's failed attempt to sneak across a border has compromised the future of the entire project. His open contempt of the sovereignty of Israel blows whatever good will the project could have expected there.'
To persuade the Israeli government that they should go along with Ken's plan is a monumental undertaking, and I think it could only be achieved at all by way of winning over first the Israeli peace community, then more and more of the Israeli public. So at best it would be a very long process. The attempt to walk into Gaza isn't a pivotal mistake, because it is just a characteristic expression of the whole project. The whole project implies that the Israelis are, to put it mildly, mishandling Gaza (and the rest of the Occupied Territories), that their policies pertaining thereto are unworthy, and so their ideas of access to Gaza are unworthy. But the Israeli government's very pursuit of Gaza withdrawal shows they recognize their managerial failure with Gaza (at least).
Gandhi walked to the sea in India to make salt, which was clearly a gesture of defiance and non-recognition of the rules of the British. But this is how to express that the rules lack legitimacy, and that the oppressor needs to rethink policy fundamentally.
"Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement."
Well, a different kind of peace movement, more a peace treaty 'movement' - but that's how wars are usually ended. If you don't get the actual warring parties to the table, you are not having effective negotiation.
"It's been a week since Ken's deportation. It's very strange that there's no news. Don't you think so too?"
I think so too. I have found in P10K a bold, but fledgling project (with a stupendous website that implies a much more developed, mature operation). When a month ago I suggested that the project needed to provide interested persons with more information, I was invited to go get it and I did!
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 04 July 2004 at 11:36pm
Win wrote:
"...The attempt to walk into Gaza isn't a pivotal mistake, because it is just a characteristic expression of the whole project. The whole project implies that the Israelis are, to put it mildly, mishandling Gaza (and the rest of the Occupied Territories), that their policies pertaining thereto are unworthy, and so their ideas of access to Gaza are unworthy. But the Israeli government's very pursuit of Gaza withdrawal shows they recognize their managerial failure with Gaza (at least)...."
-----------
If the (unsuccessful) attempt to unofficially penetrate Gaza defines the ethos of P10k (which broadcasts on the internet how open it is) then O'Keefe and this project, have in my view, a very large credibility problem.
You're either playing things above board, or you're a guerrilla activist. The two concepts, in the public eye are mutually incompatible.
Also, I'm concerned about the image that Ken projects. He comes off looking like some kind of "wild" cult leader charging, tilting at windmills like a modern day Don Quixote. The garish tattoos add to the effect. In LA, where I live, street gangsters like the Crips and the Bloods get teardrops tattooed under their eyes to signify that they have killed an opponent.
Add to this Ken's "photo-ops" with the likes of Arafat. This, I think, was also either a bad mistake, or a definitive gesture of solidarity with a fading political figure who has done more harm than good to the palestinian cause. To be polite, Arafat is obviously a brigand, a crook, a mass murderer and has been an oppressor of his own people. His wife and daughter don't even live in Palestine. They live in Paris! Arafat has stolen millions and millions of dollars in aid money from his own people..and not to better their fates!
Finally, you may have misread the Israeli move to attempt to disengage from gaza. It's unlikely that at this point they would do so for humanitarian reasons. Rather it's probably more likely that it's a consolidation move.
I hope this helps.
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Winn
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 1:22am
"You're either playing things above board, or you're a guerrilla activist. The two concepts, in the public eye are mutually incompatible."
Well, what was Gandhi? A big troublemaker at the time, to the British. Only after it all did he broadly become a hero. And as far as bizarre appearance, a loincloth, of all things!
"with a fading political figure who has done more harm than good to the palestinian cause."
Arafat has definitely done more good than harm, whatever else can be said about him.
"It's unlikely that at this point they would do so for humanitarian reasons."
I certainly don't wish to imply they'd do it for humanitarian reasons. They simply find cost exceeding benefit. As the British came to see India, it's an over-extension without justifying reward.
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 4:16am
hakimnchainik wrote:
Also contact and interaction with Hamas was part of O'keefe's game plan. To appear to do so ends the appearance of a "peace" movement.
You do not get an agreement from somebody without talking to them. If the Israeli government was interested in peace it could learn something from Ken. Why are you here hakimnchainik? Have you read the notice on forum_posts.asp?TID=26&PN=1&FID=2&PR=3 - trolling and the purpose of this forum ? And why do you have a username that means 'to talk rubbish' in Yiddish?
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 12:03pm
Dear Mr. or Ms. administrator, and the readers of this forum,
my postings were not "trolling," unless that is defined (by you) as asking specific questions concerning the activities and philosophy of this project.
If I was to choose to risk my life and finances to join this "crusade," don't you think these are reasonable questions to ask? If the participants of this forum are not allowed to ask questions, like "What happened to the project leader since he was deported a week ago?"
then you're not looking for participants in P10K, you're looking for blind cult followers.
Chainik is a Turkish name. I happen to be descended from Turkish ancestry. Are you making fun of my ethnicity?
Hakim
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 2:19pm
If you read the note on trolling you will see that the purpose of this forum is not to debate the fundamental strategy of P10K.
Since joining this forum you have done little but seed doubt and offer thinly veiled accusations about the integrity of this action and its organisers. And you've done so in a combative manner.
Those of us who organised the Iraqi human shield action, and who are now involved in P10K, know only too well the damage to be caused by those who purport to be on your side but are there only to offer barriers. This factor was the single biggest barrier to the human shield action and from my experience your style of debate and demeanor says you are probably one of these people.
We are not interested in having pessimists around to explain every reason why we won't succeed. We were told by literally hundreds of people that the Iraqi human shield action would be impossible to pull off. The reason we were able to pull it off is because we chose to ignore those people. If your aim is to seed doubt and pessimism we will quite happily ignore you too. The pros of ignoring such people outweigh by a large margin the cons of stiffling debate.
As for your name, hakn a chainik translates literally 'to chop a teapot' in Yiddish, meaning to talk rubbish. I'm sure you can understand my curiosity.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 2:39pm
Admin wrote:
If you read the note on trolling you will see that the purpose of this forum is not to debate the fundamental strategy of P10K.
That's fine. And I apologize. I guess I was out of line to ask what happened to Ken o'Keefe, who seems to have disappeared after he was deported.
Since joining this forum you have done little but seed doubt and offer thinly veiled accusations about the integrity of this action and its organisers. And you've done so in a combative manner.
Please Explain combative manner. I didn't receive any answers, therefore I was compelled to assume that this information was either being witheld without explanation or that Mr. O'Keefe has indeed disappeared and the project is over and I should make other plans for September 2004.
Those of us who organised the Iraqi human shield action, and who are now involved in P10K, know only too well the damage to be caused by those who purport to be on your side but are there only to offer barriers. This factor was the single biggest barrier to the human shield action and from my experience your style of debate and demeanor says you are probably one of these people.
If not following along blindly is a threat to your enterprise, then you are most welcome to your dogma; and I and I suppose others have been forewarned that this is nothing like a consensus-type peace movement. Nothing Gandhi like about it either.
I heard that most people bailed out of the human shield thing because 1) Saddam's people insisted that they guard "Strategic facilities" that were likely to get hit and 2) Because Ken got a little too Napoleonic. It must have been pretty stressful.
We are not interested in having pessimists around to explain every reason why we won't succeed. We were told by literally hundreds of people that the Iraqi human shield action would be impossible to pull off. The reason we were able to pull it off is because we chose to ignore those people. If your aim is to seed doubt and pessimism we will quite happily ignore you too. The pros of ignoring such people outweigh by a large margin the cons of stiffling debate.
Whatever. I just am reluctant to join or support movements with secretive agendas and half-thought out plans. If Suggesting that "sneaking across borders harms the credibility of P10K" is a threat to your scene, then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.
As for your name, hakn a chainik translates literally 'to chop a teapot' in Yiddish, meaning to talk rubbish. I'm sure you can understand my curiosity.
Whatever. Just don't give me a hard time because I'm Turkish American. If you're paranoid, that's not my problem. I hope you don't tease anybody else about their ethnicity or the way their names sound. For instance somebody who wants to join the movement may be from Phuket Thailand. In phonetic English it's pronounced "Fuck it." Would you give someone a hard time about that?
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: deian
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 3:49pm
well, if you don't like it, us, the group, it's aims or ken then go away. cuz the only person round here who sounds paranoid is you.
there are plenty of other forums to gripe and moan on. just no this one eh?
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If you're not pissed off,
you're not paying attention!
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 4:50pm
hakimnchainik wrote:
I guess I was out of line to ask what happened to Ken o'Keefe, who seems to have disappeared after he was deported.
What was out of line was your insinuation that there was something other than wholesome about Ken's inability to jump when you said jump.
Quote:
Please Explain combative manner. I didn't receive any answers, therefore I was compelled to assume that this information was either being witheld without explanation or that Mr. O'Keefe has indeed disappeared and the project is over and I should make other plans for September 2004.
Maybe you should practice a little more patience.
Quote:
If not following along blindly is a threat to your enterprise, then you are most welcome to your dogma; and I and I suppose others have been forewarned that this is nothing like a consensus-type peace movement. Nothing Gandhi like about it either.
Adapting to a situation is anything but dogma. We learnt much from the human shield action, the primary lesson being the ability to identify and shut down those whose only skill is to get in the way and spread pessimism. We are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not. This is a strength, not a weakness. Take it or leave.
Quote:
I heard that most people bailed out of the human shield thing because 1) Saddam's people insisted that they guard "Strategic facilities" that were likely to get hit and 2) Because Ken got a little too Napoleonic. It must have been pretty stressful.
People left for all sorts of reasons. Many people stayed of course, and all those that did voluntarily chose which sites they were stationed at. Of course the whole idea was to protect sites that were likely to get hit! All sites were targetted and bombed in the 1991 Gulf War (two water plants, two power plants, a food silo, a communications facility and an oil refinery) while only the communications facility was bombed this time round (the day after the human shields pulled out of it). Saddam's henchman were nothing compared to some of the screwed up Westerners we had with us.
In all likelihood you heard that Ken went Mao on us from the very people I'm am talking about; misguided Western liberal moralisers who want nothing more than to improve their resume or sooth their conscience, usually by coming in on the coattails of other people's hard work and telling them they're doing it all wrong. Again, to suggest Ken, the instigator of the action, was a barrier is something approaching lunacy.
Quote:
Whatever. I just am reluctant to join or support movements with secretive agendas and half-thought out plans. If Suggesting that "sneaking across borders harms the credibility of P10K" is a threat to your scene, then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.
If such an innocent suggestion was all that you were offering we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you're reluctant to join that's fine, there are plenty of good apples for every bad apple. Just take your insinuations and pessimism elsewhere.
Quote:
Whatever. Just don't give me a hard time because I'm Turkish American. If you're paranoid, that's not my problem. I hope you don't tease anybody else about their ethnicity or the way their names sound. For instance somebody who wants to join the movement may be from Phuket Thailand. In phonetic English it's pronounced "Fuck it." Would you give someone a hard time about that?
I'm not in the least bit interested in this level of debate.
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Posted By: hakimnchainik
Date Posted: 05 July 2004 at 5:36pm
Admin wrote:
What was out of line was your insinuation that there was something other than wholesome about Ken's inability to jump when you said jump.
If Ken's OK, then what's the big deal? What's there to hide?
We are interested only in results and we will not be bullied by the likes of yourself waving the "democracy" banner. There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not.
Thank you.
This was the first clear policy statement that I have received in response to my inquiry. This is not a consensus peace group. One must swallow whole everything that one is told, presumably by Ken or his designated authority person(s), in this case an anonymous URL administrator, or leave. Democracy is not an option. Now I understand more clearly. Better to find out now than in an Israeli or Jordanian jail.
Saddam's henchman were nothing compared to some of the screwed up Westerners we had with us.
Then I must suggest that either your "pre-screening" was faulty, or that something serious happened to precipitate a mutiny, which I think is what you have just described.
....misguided Western liberal moralisers...
Hey, I agree! No room for liberals at this party!!! Phew!
...If you're reluctant to join that's fine, there are plenty of good apples for every bad apple. Just take your insinuations and pessimism elsewhere....
I'm Western, I'm liberal. Obviously that makes me a bad apple in your books. I can live with that.
Finally, Is the principle political orientation here anarchistic (International Socialist) or totalitarian? (Baathist? Hamas? Hezbollah?)
Cheers,
Hakim
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Why Spoil a Great Dream by Waking Up?
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 4:49am
You know I've learnt how to identify your type but I don't think I'll ever understand why you consider your unconstructive opinions to be so important that those actively doing something should drop everything and listen intently to all your criticisms and pessimism.
If you don't like what you see go find something else. Better yet, go start something else. People who are getting on with it have got far better things to do than spend hours arguing with the likes of yourself.
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Posted By: freethepeeps
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 5:29am
Hakimnchainak is pro-Israeli and does not appear to understand the concept of justice for Palestinians.
I want to make one thing very clear, if you ask people to lay their lives on the line you HAVE to listen to what they say.............
admin wrote:
There is no consensus on the fundamental strategy of this action. The consensus comes in agreeing or not agreeing and deciding whether to join or not.
If thats the offical line then I'm out of here.......
Can you confirm please?
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Until all are free, none are free
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 8:31am
Yes it's quite simple really. You either agree with the core strategy, in which case you might join, or you disagree with the core strategy, in which case you wouldn't join and you'd go do something else (you certainly wouldn't bug those who agree with core strategy). Bit like many decisions in life really. Couldn't be simpler. Bye.
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 8:49am
freethepeeps wrote:
I want to make one thing very clear, if you ask people to lay their lives on the line you HAVE to listen to what they say.............
Who says P10K is asking unconstructive people to join this action? If you're unconstructive you're not being asked to do anything but go away.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: deian
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 9:59am
read this my friend. it deals with Israelis who recently were demonstrating with Palestinians with regard to the 'security fence'.
I think this applies to ken and all in P10K.
"The Israelis who face the army went to the West Bank because
they know there is a law that is higher than the army's laws of
closed military zones: there is international law, which
forbids ethnic cleansing, and there is the law of conscience.
But what brings them back, day after day, is the new covenant
that has been struck between the peoples of this land, a pact
of fraternity and friendship between Israelis and Palestinians
who love life, the land, the evening breeze. They know that it
is possible to live differently on this land."
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If you're not pissed off,
you're not paying attention!
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 10:22am
Nice one.
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"The object is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
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Posted By: Shevek
Date Posted: 06 July 2004 at 10:45am
Speaking as someone who helped organise the human shield action I think one of our mistakes was not making clear what we wanted to do and how it was intended to be achieved. This flaw was the catalyst for untold conflict and endless debate. If people had been clear about what they were joining much of this near-fatal conflict would have been avoided.
The admin is right in saying the non-debatability of the core strategy is a strength rather than a weakness.
Of course you are under no obligation to join P10K, or stay joined for that matter. Just please do everybody a favour and leave the rest of us to get on with it.
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Hakim N. Chainik
e-mail:
hakimnchainik@eudoramail.com
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