oh dear commentator, your simplistic comments are just antagonistic - they'll provoke a range of posts countering you when you well know it's not that simple, and that your attitude is contrary to future peace and understanding *for all* in Israel and Palestine.

Haven't you got something better to do than bait people, and waste our time replying! Get a grip/life.

to 'oh dear',

instead of criticising the 'commentator's' response, without due intelligence, why don't you acknowledge his/her comments? with acknowledgement comes talks, solutions, and eventually peace...

but i suppose you know this already? and choose to NOT appreciate that there are two sides to every story? now who is the pot and who is the kettle?

could it be that your 'hollow' and 'propaganda-filled' response is as vapid as what is contained between your left and right ear?? i welcome an intelligent response, but that will likely not come from you...

am yisrael chai!

Yes there are two sides to every story. You're on one and we're on the other.

Its a bit precious of you to defend masturbator's typically childish post (which is so one-sided as to defy belief - do you really think that the international court hasn't THOUGHT about the issue?) and then accuse others of being "simpletons", isn't it?

The wall has been effective in stopping the movement of terrorists into Israel, this is a fact. As to the question as to if the wall should have been built, that's a very different one.

There is much nonsense talked by both sides about the situation in Israel and the OT's. Let us settle one myth straight away, there has not been widespread seperation of people and their land, yes there has been some but it is not common. The wall is understood by many of Arab descent, indeed some Arabs living in Israel support it because they too have been affected by suicide bombs.

The majority of Israeli and Palestinian citizens are not hurt by the wall and mostly don't care about it. I have seen on many occasions journos (always Western) setting up the type of shot they want their viewers to see. These consist of a child or woman crying in front of the wall and wailing about their 'lost land'. The going rate for an interview of this type is currently $25. These shots are carefully framed to avoid showing the many gates and openings in the wall to give the impression of a solid barrier.

The majority of Palestinians are not (as some would have us think) all working toward the overthrow of the Israeli state and spend their time on the streets in protest and demonstration. In fact they tend to live their lives in parralel with their Israeli neighbours and friendships between them are more common than may be realised. They simply live the same sort of lives we all lead with a far greater interest in a friends wedding, new baby, death in the family, new job, etc. The majority of protests are now very short lived as they tend to fade away once the TV crews (and the money they bring to start them) get their pictures and leave after 20 minutes or so.

The exception are those protests where Western activists are involved, these now consist of Israeli soldier baiting (shouts, catapults, stone throwing etc) with a view to obtaining the more extreme photos which sell for more money.

On balance the wall is working, I don't like it but I find it difficult to argue against its success.

I am cynical about all those involved in protest throughout the area, too much of it is staged and most of it is driven by TV crews.

The wall doesn't lie on the border and steals Palestinian land and water resources. If it was on the border, it would be shorter and easier to maintain, and thus be more secure. The route of the wall alone shows it is not simply about security, but about taking yet more land from the Palestinians.
Peace can never be forged by building walls. By following this path, you sow the seeds of hatred and division, and they will be reaped when the geo-political situation changes. If by building this wall, the whole world condemns you, and the Arab world is inflamed, is the position of Israel any safer? It is short-sighted and cruel.
In general there cannot be peace if you artificially divide peoples into the 'Jewish state' and the 'Palestinian state'. Zionism is anti-semitism, because it states that Jews cannot live with the other peoples of the world, and have to hide behind apartheid walls and oppressive armies. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if followed to its conclusion. The only solution is to take steps to integrate Palestinians and Jews together, to live in the same country as brothers and sisters, and to tear down all the walls.

"The wall has been effective in stopping the movement of terrorists into Israel, this is a fact."

It isn't complete yet, is it? so, how does that work - if it's a "fact" you miust be able to show a correlation between a partially built wall and a reduction in the number of attacks.

"Let us settle one myth straight away, there has not been widespread seperation of people and their land, yes there has been some but it is not common."

Its extremely common - do you not read the accounts?

"The majority of Israeli and Palestinian citizens are not hurt by the wall and mostly don't care about it."

It seems to me that Israelis care deeply about the wall .... witness the outpouring of wrath over the ICJ ruling .......... it's already started - Palestinians have made their position on the wall VERY VERY clear - thats why they took it to the ICJ


"I have seen on many occasions journos (always Western) setting up the type of shot they want their viewers to see. These consist of a child or woman crying in front of the wall and wailing about their 'lost land'. The going rate for an interview of this type is currently $25. These shots are carefully framed to avoid showing the many gates and openings in the wall to give the impression of a solid barrier."

Well, now we get to suspect that you are an Israeli....... NIS111 for a photo sounds like good money - so, how many ocassions, and where can we see the photos that you saw being set up?

"The majority of Palestinians are not (as some would have us think) all working toward the overthrow of the Israeli state and spend their time on the streets in protest and demonstration. In fact they tend to live their lives in parralel with their Israeli neighbours and friendships between them are more common than may be realised. They simply live the same sort of lives we all lead with a far greater interest in a friends wedding, new baby, death in the family, new job, etc."

Heh, thats fantastic, all the years of restriction of movement, checkpoints, siege, curfew and closure have had no effect on the Palestinians!!

Me and you appear to have a very different experience of Palestine - normal life was nigh on impossible in nablus 15 months ago and by all accounts its worse now.

I'm beginning to suspect that you have an agenda which is less than honest......


"The majority of protests are now very short lived as they tend to fade away once the TV crews (and the money they bring to start them) get their pictures and leave after 20 minutes or so."

Now, this is fantastic - so these Palestinians whose lives are totally unaffected by the grim conditions of occupation, manage to tear themselves away from an endless round of parties to earn pocket money staging demos against a wall that they don't care about .... just so that western journos (WHO NEVER SEEM TO LEAVE THE AMERICAN COLONY HOTEL IME) can mirepresent the situation back home........

"The exception are those protests where Western activists are involved, these now consist of Israeli soldier baiting (shouts, catapults, stone throwing etc) with a view to obtaining the more extreme photos which sell for more money."

Give it a rest woncha..........

"On balance the wall is working, I don't like it but I find it difficult to argue against its success."

Me thinks that despite your protestations to the contrary you cares very much about it - and that you even go onto internet sites to write lies in support of it.......



"I am cynical about all those involved in protest throughout the area, too much of it is staged and most of it is driven by TV crews.

Journo "

I am extremely cynical about you...........

Interesting reaction . . .

No I am not Israeli, neither am I Jewish. As a working journalist I try to give a balanced view of events, however like all all those who work in media our reports are to an extent influenced by our views and opinions.

The paying of people to stage protest is well known, as someone who claims to have been in Nablus recently I would be speachless if you had never seen it let alone heard of it. Try visiting the Hamblan cafe on a Friday evening after prayers. The CNN guys tend to pay the most although for some reason Austrian TV crews have always been known as top payers.

You're right the wall is not a complete barrier and perhaps that itself is telling. The Israelis placed the parts of the wall close to those routes used by the teams that bring the suicide bombers to Israel.

Extremists on both sides of the divide try to portray Arabs and Israeli as at each others throats on a daily basis whe the reality is the majority of those who live near the border areas get on well, trade, and live their lives in relative calm.

The Western TV crews and peace activists have moved from being just part of the problem to very often the cause of it.

The Wall and Israel's Aims
Posted by Noam Chomsky
If the goal were security, Israel would have built the fence a few km inside its borders. It could then be a mile high, patrolled on both sides by the IDF, mined with nuclear weapons, utterly impenetrable. Perfect security.

The problem would be that it would not take valuable Palestinian land and resources (including control of water), drive out the population, and lay the basis for still further expansion as Palestinians flee from the dungeons that are left, like the town of Qalqilya. So to interpret as a land grab seems appropriate.

Doubtless a side benefit is to increase a narrow form of "security," while probably in the long run seriously increasing insecurity not only because of the regional impact but because sooner or later it is likely to inspire terrorist acts against Israelis abroad in revenge. But terror and security are not driving concerns, any more than they have a high priority in the planning of "the boss-man called `partner'," as more astute Israeli commentators describe Washington.

Sharon's strategic thinking seems straightforward enough. There are excellent descriptions in recent books by Tanya Reinhart and Baruch Kimmerling. It is also not radically different from that of Rabin and Peres. The goal is to take over the valuable parts of the West Bank (Gaza is mostly a burden), and to leave the population that remains under local administration, to rot and decline.

The basic principle was explained to the Cabinet of the Labor Government 30 years ago by Moshe Dayan, perhaps the most sympathetic to the Palestinians among the Israeli leadership: we should tell the Palestinians in the territories that "You shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes, may leave, and we shall see where this process will lead."

The occupation should be "permanent," he believed, in one or another form, and to the objection that Israel must consider its moral stand, he responded that "Ben-Gurion said that whoever approaches the Zionist problem from a moral aspect is not a Zionist."

There have been differences as to how these principles should apply, but a fair consensus among leading political echelons that if they can be applied, that's fine. Sharon's basic conceptions were outlined years ago, and he is pursuing them systematically, relying on the material and diplomatic support of the boss-man.

Across the spectrum, the "ideal" solution might well be something like Ben-Gurion's expansive vision that goes far beyond anything currently considered even within the realm of dreams.

Journo, probably the only point you raised I agree with was that about the media portraying the sides at each others throats, when in reality there was a lot of friendy trading etc going on. AT least it used to. I was in Qalqilia, which is a town Israelis used to visit a lot, and I spoke to Palestinian farmers who had good business relationships with their Israeli counterparts. Until the wall. Now the wall completely surrounds Qalqilia. It is one giant ghetto. If you've been there, I'm sure you know this to be true. There were days it was impossible to enter or leave from the only checkpoint into the town. The Palestinians have been divided from their Israeli friends and counterparts, and instead the voices which have gained dominance in Qalqilia are those of Hamas, and the extreme religious elements.
Peace has been stalled, and the conflict has been inflamed. When you surround cities with walls, who knows what frustrations and anger start brewing behind them.

Your argument is self-consistent, but shortsighted, and fundamentally flawed. If you intend to steal a people's land, and carry out a crime, then in order to ensure safety, you have to undergo security measures, like occupying armies and concrete walls. It is impossible to carry out the crime without these measures. Therefore, I agree with you that the wall stops suicide bombings. However, this is only so the Israelis are free not to make a just settlement with the Palestinians, and so they can steal more land. It's like mugging someone with a gun. It is logical that I will be more successful if I mug somebody if I bring a firearm with me. I am, it appears, safer if I do so. But it doesn't change the fact that mugging someone is fundamentally wrong. And in fact, to do so with a gun is a more serious crime, and if I am caught out, the consequences are more severe.

And that is why I believe, that Israel following this criminal path, using ever harsher and harsher measures to protect itself as it does so, will lead ultimately to terrible consequences, and if you really care about the Israelis, and the Jewish people, you will work to turn them away from this path.

I don't know if this woman was paid to pose, but it bears out what journo was saying.

freethepeeps, you can't win an argument by being aggressive towards anyone who challenges a two-dimensional perception of the question.

to commentator and am yisrael chai -

commentator's comments were antagonistic - it didn't take much intelligence on my part to see that, or the bait you are laying and I am now falling for by replying!

"with acknowledgement comes talks, solutions, and eventually peace... " - was I not doing that by saying peace & security for all in Palestine & Israel?!
Nice ploy to come over all "two sides to the story" - well, my above comment was, d'oh!

Nice you are familiar with the concept of dual narrative, that until two sides (& to see it as just two sides over there is simplistic in itself) accept that there are different and contradictory truths, and that they are the truth for the other, then there is no hope for peace (eg South Africa's Peace & Reconciliation Commission). Pity you don't follow what you preach, except to have a go (at me), and descend into nonsense about my brain (or lack thereof). If there was any propaganda in my post, it was of the 'positive hey we have to listen to all sides' variety, hardly a threat to you, so why the nonsense? I do not see it as simply as 'I'm on one side, you're on the other' as [sigh] seems to.

PS can you tell me what "am yisrael chai!" means?
PS Journo - if I kill you, you won't potentially write untruths like all you journos do!! I am not advocating that, but do you see the parallel with your pro-wall argument? I've been involved in protests there & know others who have first-hand observed or participated - they were not driven by TV crews or payment, ya wally! If you really want to about the long history of peaceful resistance and protest over there, by Palestinians and now foreigners (like me), not to mention the separating of lands and Palestinian people, never mind the wholesale destruction of orchards and land, check out the International Solidarity Movement. You talk about peace activists being part of the problem - you can't have talked to many Palestinians who've had contact with them (of course the Israeli media and anyone who relies on its info has been very antagonistic to us "terror tourists" for a long while now. It tends to be Israeli army killing that brings many protests against the wall to an end these days, nothing to do with journalists (not) present. Many gates and openings?!? Maybe you went to a different country or are confused? Do you think Palestinians are allowed through any that do exist? If you do, then your argument about stopping terrorists is scuppered again. And tell me what the moral difference is between a terrorist and an organised army, if they both kill and maim civilians?

by the fact that she cannot travel without checkpoints, stop worrying about the lives and happiness of her children and family in a warzone, live without knowing that Israelis have stolen water and land and turned Palestine into a huge armed camp, know that her family cannot farm to bring any other money into the household because they cannot get through the wall, know that Palestinians have no right to return to Palestine (no Palestinian passport, effectively, legally, no Palestinian nationally) whereas Jewish people born across the world have a right to live on this land, which becomes a right to build settlements on Palestinian land and defend the settlements with guns.

So what if people are posing for pictures for money? I'd do it if it meant bringing money to my family in these terrible circumstances and it shows a complete lack of understanding of humanity and utter hypocrisy to argue that she should not do so.

Especially given that it was clearly absolutely necessary for the protection of the Israeli state that students had to be shot in the head and run over with bulldozers.

Ah, but posing for the media is so much worse than the occupation and consequent oppression of an entire people

isn't it?

journo is HH is realist is jamie is sceptic

is fuzz is mossad

won't be fooled again

Some telling comments from all posters.

First let me make clear I do not support the fence / wall / barrier. My comment was that it stopped attacks, as we all seem to be in agrement on that we can move on.

There has been widespread exploitation of Palestinians by TV crews, this is mostly driven by the demands of Producers ( I know I used to hear them when I worked in the mainstream media) for 'sobbing women pictures' or 'child with doll' video. I mentioned this as a warning (as usual) not to believe all you see.

Activists from outside the country DO contribute to problems, their experience of Western news gathering has led them to set up the sort of shot they know crews want. The story about Palestinian farmer laughing and joking with an Israeli soldier does not make the news in Paris, London or Berlin (or for that matter Tel Aviv). Schoolboys throwing stones at tanks does.

On balance I would say the place would be better without Summer holiday activists.

you can call ISMers "Summer holiday activists"

but before anyone else judges and generalises people's motivations and actions without experiencing them, try to:

ask the Palestinian organisers of ISM who invite people over to get trained to help non-violent resistance to the occupation, ask the people ISMers have stayed with in refugee camps giving them some limited protection, ask those who's houses are about to be demolished that ISMers go to, ask those released from 'adminstrative detention' into a curfew that they'll get shot dead in if not accompanied by foreigners, ask those who can't get medical care from the Red Cross or Red Crescent because they get stopped by the Israeli army but can get medical supplies and care from trained ISMers, etc etc

and let them be the judge.

Read Palestine and Israel Indymedia, read ISM reports, rather than the mainstream media, and you will get your cross-cultural hopeful reports as well. That is what "Summer holiday activists" focus on - what the mainstream reports unfortunately is of their choice.

I think sometimes people have gone out to Palestine with no idea of what is going on, and haven't been of help. I've seen it myself, the crazy lady who shouts at the soldiers. But I've seen some fantastic work done as well. I think the ISM played a huge part in bringing the issue of the wall into the media, into public consciousness, and eventually to the Hague, and this ruling has incredible implications, because even though Israel will ignore it, like they have ignored numerous UN resolutions, the court holds a lot of authority and legitimacy, and people will question just why is it Israel can ignore it.

General Assembly resolutions have been safely ignored, because Israel just talks about the large 'Arab bloc', even though only Israel, the US, UK and Micronesia ( for some reason) ever vote against a resolution condemning Israel. But a ruling from the International Court of Law has resonance.

The ISM played a seriously large part in bringing this about, as well work escorting ambulances, delivering medicines etc. But it is also of benefit to the activists themselves, because they get to see what the situation is in reality, not the way it is lied about and spun, and report back to their friends and family. When so many 'reporters' self-censor, or are thrall to large media corporations, we need to do some investigation of our own.

BUT, I do think the ISM has caused some problems, due to the fact that so many people go out there, for a short time, and start doing things before they really know what the situation is all about. I don't think it is good for people to simply go out there for their 'summer holidays', as you put it, and expect to take part in demos and direct action. Having said that, the IDF has a tendency to simply deport older, more experienced activists, so it's a difficult balance to strike.