This week's fantasy post from the Infantileada / BNP alliance. I suppose you think if you post the same lies each week somebody will believe you. What you seem to forget is other people come along and see the reality of your squalid little facist demo.

I will agree one thing with you an increase in numbers, this week you had three BNP thugs to come and stand with you rather than pair of losers you had last week.

I don't understand why you still bother with this. I suppose until one side backs down the other will not either. Bit sad really, typical men.

...typical bourgeois whore there a course!

"I suppose until one side backs down the other will not either."

This to me sums up the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a nutshell. You have two groups of people who hate each other passionately, always have, and probably always will. Palestine is the pet project of the left, Israel is the pet project of the right. The screaming match has been going on for decades, and all that it seems to accomplish is that both sides become ever more entrenched in their viewpoints. Most of the general public is not interested in stepping into the middle of this shit-slinging match, and why should they be?

its all very well taking a 'balanced' view that both sides mutually hate each other and always will - but its bollocks. One side is brutally occupying the territory of the other - the hate comes from somewhere.

The 'Palestinian' identity was invented in the 1960s, long after the Jewish people asserted their right to self-determination in their homeland. There is no occupation, only Arab fascism in action.

...A land full of people for people without souls.

It is not Arab fascism bulldozing people homes and building a wall inside another states territory is it?

It is all about the little right-wing war club of Bush Blair and Sharon. Israel gets supported by the US to the tune of millions of dollars. Business supports Israel, hence these protests and boycotts of m&$.


Support a Palestine free of zionist terrorism

 http://www.palestinecampaign.org/
 http://www.palsolidarity.org/

All national identities are constructed myths, usually channelled for negative purpose. The fact this particular myth is younger than others doest not detract from the very real oppression of one group of human beings by another. I'm not a nationalist, i don't think a separate 'palestinian state' alongside israel is a recipe for peace since segregation always leads to violence. The only lasting peace will come from a shared state (or non-state if you're anarchically inclined).

That's the end of 'one ethnically pure state' zionism though - the cries of 'they will outbreed us!' sound like a BNP line. It is disturbing that apparent defenders of israel cannot tell the difference between left-wing anti-imperialism and bonafide nazi antisemitism - surely you are aware that many in the palestinian justice movement are also militant antifascists?

Clearly, Israelis want to live without the threat of being blown up. But occupation is providing a pool of hope-devoid converts to extremism. I have an israeli friend, a hip hop dj, who tells me that Tel Aviv is pretty much like London. Young people go out clubbing. Others sit in cafes. Its a 'western' consumer city. He mentioned the fear at the back of his mind that the next bus he catches could be his last, but said it really didn't enter into his mind that much. On the other hand, its pretty hard to ignore the occupation of palestine as a palestinian. Checkpoints everywhere, long waits in the sun, guns pointed at you.

Imagine Hamas gunmen roaming the streets of Tel Aviv backed by tanks and air support - looking for 'Israeli military' - trying to 'prevent home demolitions by known israeli terrorists'. Naturally Israelis, particularly young men, resist the Hamas forces. Hamas kill many of them, and many civilians in dissproportionate 'retaliation' which many suspect was pre-planned. The homes of known bulldozer drivers are demolished - sometimes with their families inside, other times with a few minuites notice. Tel Aviv is put under curfew while Hamas forces look for Israeli soldiers. Rubbish pile up in the street. Food supplies run low and people go hungry. The water supply is cut off, probably deliberately.

Israeli appeals to the international community for assistance - a peacekeeping force - anything. The international community wants to end the suffering of Israelis, who have suffered far more casualties than Palestinians. However, the US blocks any action insisting that Hamas has a right to self defence in occupying Israeli territory. Furthermore, arms shippments from the US to hamas are the biggest single act of US 'humanitarian aid' whilst Israel is in ruins. Worse than this, Ariel Sharon is busy playing power politics and hording a personal fortune. Sharon sometimes seems more interested in defiant postruring, and his history hardly reveals a man of peace. Israelis say the same of the democratically elected Palestinian leader.

The US, the most powerful state in history, continues to back Hamas's occupation. Hope in Israel starts to dissappear after fruitless years of talks. Support for previosly marginalised militant zionist groups surges. The 'Martyrs of Barchuch Goldstein and the glory of Yaweh' claim responsibility for bombings of illegal palestinan settlements killing children as well as armed settlers. The group carries out suicidal attacks inside palestinain territory - shootng til the last man is killed. Even those uncomfortable with the groups targeting of civilians are impressed by their selfless devotion to the cause of israeli liberation. And the sides become more and more entrenched. . .

The situation is Palestine is disgusting, the involvement of M&$ in supporting the state of Israel is worthy of protest . . . . .. however I will never support this protest as long as its involvement with the Far Right continues. Support from the BNP should be completely unwelcome and to form an alliance with them on this issue is out of order.

The picket involved with the Far Right? If this was true I would agree with
your comment, but the many times I've attented the pro-Palestine picket I
haven't met anyone remotely right wing or heard a single racist remark from
any of the activists. Have you been to the picket and seen anything
contradicting this, or have you just read the lies posted by the Zionist
about the "3 BNP thugs" and taken their word for it?

Sadly there is always a risk of anti-semitic morons trying to join
anti-Israel protests for their own twisted reasons, but in the case of the
M&S pickets, I reckon that if any of these sick and disgusting individuals
turned up, they would soon either be kicked off the demo or would leave of
their own choice. I don't think anyone from the BNP would be able to stomach
standing on the picket for long, surrounded by Muslim, Asian, Black South
African, Spanish and Jewish people (just some of the diverse mix of
activists I've met there). I don't think they could stand there while a
paper entitled FIGHT RACISM! FIGHT IMPERIALISM! was being sold on the stall.
And I don't think they could stand there and happily listen to people
talking on the megaphone about the crimes of British imperialism against the
peoples of the Middle East, and chanting "We won't let racists get their
way!"

I think it's really ironic that someone from the pro-Israel side is making
accusations about the Intifada picket being involved with the British Far
Right. On their pro-Israel demo I've seen some of them waving Union Jacks
and calling out at passers by "Are you proud to be British?" Hmmm, I'm SURE
I've heard that line before- in a party political broadcast by the BNP!! If
there are British Nationalists at work, it's not on the pro-Palestine stall.

Rea, wake up. The involvement of the far right (they may or not be BNP) is well known at the M&S protest as it is at other pro-Palestinian events. It was the reason I sopped going and I know others feel the same.

You seem to be working on the basis of 'repeat it enough an it becomes fact'. I have never encountered right wingers, let alone the far right on pro-palestine stuff in years of campaigning. Many of the pro-palestine activists i know are also active in antifascism, some militantly.

If you can't produce any evidence beyond 'everyone knows...' readers will have to conclude you 'no to zionism' are just another zionist troll who's exchanged the standard 'you are all antsemites' slur for the slightly more sophisticated 'i know you are well meaning and not antisemitic, but 'they' are antisemites so don't go to protests'.

Put up or shut up mate, if your accusations have any truth then just identify the far rightists and they'll get kicked off demos. simple.

Please do not pretend this protest had not been given extensive evidence about those in your group. Were you there when I received a punch in the face for pointing at a known BNP member and asking why he was allowed to be with you (Tony Simmonds of Bradford).

Why has your group ignored every e-mail sent to it with pictures and full details of BNP members attending the demo on a regular basis ?

Why did you ignore the arrest of Ricky Walters at the Trafalger Square demo by police for non payment of fines relating to a race attack in Lewisham ?

Why have some protestors who stand with you been allowed to stand
"away from those Muslims" ? A request heard loud and clear by a number of people, some of whom at the guts to object.

These people are not our allies. You should choose your comrades better.

Oi might not have personally 'encountered right wingers, let alone the far right on pro-palestine stuff in years of campaigning' but he/she must know that the far right have continuously infiltrated and taken advantage of pro-palestinian groups. If we fail to distance ourselves from the fascist fringe problem (both traditional european nazis and muslim extremists) the cause will suffer.

those picks are of the german npd, i'm talking about the uk, where I have experience. Why don't you contact antifa re far right people at the M&S picket, if this is true.

There have been members of far right organisations that have protested alongside pro Palestinian groups. This occurred several times in 2002 in the US, where Ku Klux Klan groups protested together with Palestinian groups.

In Canada and the US, the far right have idolised Rachael Corrie as a white Aryan martyr who was murdered by Jews and their campaigning against Israel has focused on this.

I can understand why the distinction between left and right is blurred in matters pertaining to Israel. Both far left and right wing activists have used and cited works by Israel Shahak and Robert Fourisson (both have been discredited). This is not the first time I have heard that about the BNP protesting with Palestinian groups in this country. However, I doubt that any collusion would have been arranged intentionally.

Is it likely the far right activity is endemic to Germany alone?

Instead of relying on individuals to point out known fascists, why aren't groups working together to ensure they are excluded, proactively?

contact antifa  http://www.antifa.org.uk/ - militant left-wing antifascists.

I agree with zion 1 (for once) that its unlikely to be deliberate, people hardly show up and say 'Hi I'm a card-carrying fascist antisemite, can I join and therefore discredit your picket'. The palestine solidarity movement should have nothing to do with fascists, and I'm sure very few would tolerate it if they knew (and if its true).

I'm aware of the the german npd, and i have heard of (though not seen evidence) the 'rachael corrie - aryan martyr' nazi bullshit by US fascists. I'm less clear of UK links, but do publicise them if they exist. Fascists will always be opportunists and should always be restisted as *everyone* suffers if they gain power.

The problem we have at the moment is not that BNP memebrs are turning up and announcing their membership at the M&S demo. The problem is that having been identified on numerous occasions and with detailed evidence by ANL members among others the organisers of the protest are turning a blind eye to their involvement to ensure extra bodies at the demo.

Members of Far Right organisations are routingly attending the protest and nothing is being done about it, as a consequence a number of people are unwilling to support the event. We heard first denials, then a promise to expel them and finaly another denial, none of this is good enough.

You lot are nuts. I can't speak for the Manchester M&S picket, although I am sure the comrades will speak for themselves, but I can categorically state that there are no BNP members or supporters on the London one. Ironically we spent a while accusing the Zionist counter-demo of being BNP (they were flying a union jack and making anti-communist, anti-Muslim comments which seemed pretty in keeping with the BNP, whatever their differences on Israel). This is all bollox and not even clever bollox.

How this does relate to Germany is that because of that country's history, this kind of stuff has been more successful and left wingers there are scared to support Palestine for fear of being labelled anti-Semites. But it is garbage. The Victory to the Intifada group which organises the M&S pickets is anti-racist and would chuck anyone off for being anti-Jewish or otherwise racist. If some secret nazi once came on the picket to check us out, they were under deep cover and not distinguishable from the secret zionist and the secret cop who may be there too.

The posters who claim they came and saw lots of fascists and left are lying. They have never been and no-one has ever said they were leaving for that reason.

I see you have returned to the denial tactic again !

Face up to the evidence, deal with the problem and expel these people. People will return when the Far Right scum are gone but not before.

The claims by supposed supporters of Palestine that fascists and BNP members are regular attenders of the M&S Pickets is just Zionist disinformation. In Manchester the only fascists that have been near the Picket recently have been with the Zionist thugs attempting to intimidate us off the street. For the supposed ANL person who posted about BNPers she should contact her Manchester SWP comrades who identified known fascists amongst the Zionist thugs attacking us on 24 July.

Poster 'Dave' is a BNP sympathiser and agitator. Please do not let these neo-nazis interrupt an reasonable and measured debate about confronting the fascist hijack of a just cause.

This thread runs straight into the problem of differentiating between evidence and proof.

There is a certain amount of evidence that points towards the USE of the issues surrounding Palestine/israel by facist groups - specifically openly racist facists like the bnp.

This evidence (so far) consists of a few photos from germany (hardly specifically or even roughly related to the M&S picket!) and a few comments made by virtually anonoumous people NOT backed up with either detail or source.

Thus, there is no proof, and those with an eye for such detail would say VERY POOR evidence!

But lets look at the underlying issues here:

It would certainly suit elements from the zionist camp if strong links could be found indicating that the outward stance of anti-racism, anti-facism & anti-zionism found among the attendies of the picket was tainted with the very ideals that these groups oppose.

Unfortunately (for the zionists) this is simply fantasy. As much as there maybe calculations by the far right, that 'my enemies enemy is my friend' - this is unlikely to be even slightly efective in securing any kind of working relationship with the M&S picket.

The reason?

Nobody likes either the politics or the manners of bnp scum!

Having said that (and disregarding the pathetic attempts of SOME in the zionist camp to insist - against all known sympathies - that this is the case), it has to be said that the larger point made has some validity.

Divisions of left and right are often mere convienience for those that wish to control and dominate and it is no suprise that lower level operatives[sic] often fall for the rhetoric.

It is very important that we - as people as well as a 'movement' - purge ourselves of the residual feelings of hatred towrds ANY group religious or ethnic. Which is to say that such feelings DO exist in some if not all people!

It is no use pretending that the feeling covered by the words 'anti-semitism' is either a thing of the past, or a thing that other people experience. Everybody experiences these feelings towards each other and might better be called xenophobia. The problem arises when groups start to attempt to rationalise these feelings as a political outlook.

To say that the 'left' is immune to such phenomena is as stupid and self-serving as saying that jewish people are immune to the feelings of xenophobia, or that god told them it was alright for them alone to experience and indulge in it.

I think it is about time all those that can, take a step back from confrontation.

Take a ddep breath, feel alive and take a look at the issues one supports and why. From there, lets try and find common ground and universally acceptable language to outline the problem.

Here is my small attempt:

Jews and arabs and christians and non belivers have a right to live where they want.

Israel has a right to exist.

Plaestine has a right to exist.

In between that, there must be way that we can move forward together, and lets not get bogged down in fighting each other.

(Zion 1 - I shall look upon your words with respect from now on - although I might disagree with them on occassion. I think I have been WRONG with regards to the issues that you and others raise and in my treatment of you and others. Hubris and arrogance don't make for rational understanding and peace.)

I think what you might find is that in the US and Germany, there is a problem with the Far-Right jumping into any opportunity to attack Israel including Palestine solidarity, largely because in both countries the Left are unwilling to, because of (understandable if misguided) fear of accidental anti-semitism.

Whereas in the UK much of the Left have maintained a clear position that anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism, hence have got involved in Palestine solidarity in sufficient numbers to deter the Far-Right from coming anywhere near.