that's really cool. any news yet on how the health and safety people are following up the report about them continuing to work during the last roof occupation?

Attack the workers because they have to work. That's sooo cool!
Everyone loves a middle class dropout.

... and the workers at death camps should be protected from bad labour practices ...

Got anymore incredibly stupid points to make?

DON'T PICK ON THE BOSSES NOW!

Hate the workers!
Hate the workers!

I can't see any evidence of workers being attacked by the protesters in this article, all it says it that their workplace was blockaded.

Seems like "m" likes to create facts out of air...

d - not sure about the health and safety issue. The police were telling people to go in and stay in during the May 20th rooftop occupation so they didn't think it was an issue. We're actually trying to help any workers with a conscience to find alternative work;

Thursday 7th October - Get a Proper Job (one that doesn't involve destroying people)!

SmashEDO will be holding a jobs fair for the benefit of EDO employees who may be experiencing a troubled conscience. There is plenty of employment for skilled precision engineers that doesn't involve blowing people up. The fair will be held opposite EDOs Home Farm Road Site from 11am onwards. This is NOT a protest! see  http://smashedo.bpec.org/

Frankly, the employees who don't give a shit are complicit in war crimes. We've informed the staff what they are involved in, so they can no longer plead ignorance. Its one thing worrying about keeping your job to put food on the table - but that shouldn't stop you either looking for another one or getting unionised and agitating for EDO MBM to focus on civilian industry (to which they supply some stuff already).

Stop the war crimes, smash the arms trade, shut down EDO!

"We're actually trying to help any workers with a conscience to find alternative work;"

"Frankly, the employees who don't give a shit are complicit in war crimes."

"We've informed the staff what they are involved in, so they can no longer plead ignorance."

Can you see yet TomA?

1. Who decides if workers have a conscience or not?

2. The workers are now complicit in war crimes?

3. The workers have been enlightened by who exactly?

m, you still haven't explained how campaigning against a huge multinational arms company is an 'attack on workers' - your 'class analysis' looks like a weak attempt to hide the fact you are just midlessly trolling this post. Nonetheless, you've raised some questions which i'll deal with:

"1. Who decides if workers have a conscience or not?"

You have to make a judgement on the facts - in a welfare state is it even morally permissable to to something immoral because you 'need' the money? The human brain is very good at rationalising immorality - everyone tends to think they are doing the right thing otherwise they couldn't do it. You're free to consider support for war crimes moral even when alternative employment is available - do you? I don't, hence the reference to employees consciences.

"2. The workers are now complicit in war crimes?"

Well, Kofi Annan, the majority of the world's population, numerous legal scholars. In fact everyone except the perpetrators and a small circle of apologists. Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court has some definitions of war crimes. What do you think Paveway bombs do to people? The war crimes comitted by the coalition are too numerous to list, but include deliberately targeting journalists, deliberately targetting ambulances, cutting electricity and water to civilian populations (Fallujah and currently Sammarah), use of cluster bombs in residential areas, 'incedental' bombing of civilians without military excuse (eg. war is illegal so no military excuse), depleted uranium munitions . . . the list goes on and on.

"3. The workers have been enlightened by who exactly?"

Nobody said 'enlightened', you're hyperbolising. Activists have, via leaflets and blown-up (no pun intended) Robert Fisk pictures "informed the staff what they are involved in [quoting myself from above]" - the war crimes summarised in the previous paragraph. We have made the staff aware of the consequences of their actions - that is not an 'attack' as you earlier charged - unless of course you have some kind of ignorance cult going where thinking about the consequences of your actions is prohibited?


If 'm' thinks its attacking the working class and defending the bosses to protest a multinational arms company that is aiding and abetting mass slaughter in Iraq (and elsewhere), then 'm' is perfectly entitled to that opinion. I suspect it is not widely shared. I would be interested how far this extends, not wishing to deploy a 'deductio ad absurditum' argument of course; most of the worst crimes against humanity have been comitted by 'workers' under orders - the holocaust being the obvious example. Perhaps we should campaign for better conditions for North Korean concentration camp guards (our working class comrades), since the inmates are just 'middle class dropouts'?

'm', your faux class war rhetoric fools no-one, and if you're not going to say anything beyond sarcastic 2-line spam it would appear you're just a troll in idiots clothing.

Wrong . . .

You are not attacking a huge multinational arms company you are attacking people who work for that company. Using your logic all workers should be targetted because they work for capitalists.

1. "You have to make a judgement on the facts - in a welfare state is it even morally permissable to to something immoral because you 'need' the money? The human brain is very good at rationalising immorality - everyone tends to think they are doing the right thing otherwise they couldn't do it. You're free to consider support for war crimes moral even when alternative employment is available - do you? I don't, hence the reference to employees consciences."

While you might think it is immoral you have no right to impose your own moral code on other people. You do not know what is best for other people. You're talking the language of imperialism, cultural imperialism.

2. "Well, Kofi Annan, the majority of the world's population, numerous legal scholars. In fact everyone except the perpetrators and a small circle of apologists. Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court has some definitions of war crimes. What do you think Paveway bombs do to people? The war crimes comitted by the coalition are too numerous to list, but include deliberately targeting journalists, deliberately targetting ambulances, cutting electricity and water to civilian populations (Fallujah and currently Sammarah), use of cluster bombs in residential areas, 'incedental' bombing of civilians without military excuse (eg. war is illegal so no military excuse), depleted uranium munitions . . . the list goes on and on."

You are calling ordinary working people war criminals. The war criminals are those who start the wars and reap the profits from them. Ordinary working people do not start wars or reap the huge profits from them the capitalists and politicians do.

3.
"Nobody said 'enlightened', you're hyperbolising. Activists have, via leaflets and blown-up (no pun intended) Robert Fisk pictures "informed the staff what they are involved in [quoting myself from above]" - the war crimes summarised in the previous paragraph."

No pun taken. What's this [quoting from myself] rubbish. Do you talk like that in real life or have you gone in to school essay mode?

" We have made the staff aware of the consequences of their actions - that is not an 'attack' as you earlier charged - unless of course you have some kind of ignorance cult going where thinking about the consequences of your actions is prohibited?"

Now you're really starting to lose it. WTF is an ignorance cult? Maybe you have them on campus. You've never had a real job in your life. You've never had to worry about money at all and chances are you never will have to. Fact is you are the ignorant one not the workers.

"If 'm' thinks its attacking the working class and defending the bosses to protest a multinational arms company that is aiding and abetting mass slaughter in Iraq (and elsewhere), then 'm' is perfectly entitled to that opinion. I suspect it is not widely shared. I would be interested how far this extends, not wishing to deploy a 'deductio ad absurditum' argument of course; most of the worst crimes against humanity have been comitted by 'workers' under orders - the holocaust being the obvious example. Perhaps we should campaign for better conditions for North Korean concentration camp guards (our working class comrades), since the inmates are just 'middle class dropouts'?"

You just don't get it. If you want to protest against the arms trade or anything else target the bosses. That way you might find you get some support from the workers!

"'m', your faux class war rhetoric fools no-one, and if you're not going to say anything beyond sarcastic 2-line spam it would appear you're just a troll in idiots clothing."

Is Daddy a boss by any chance?

Smash The Rich Bastards Who Own EDO!

Although I can understand and sympathise with the notion that the bosses carry the lions share of 'blame' in regards to weapons production, it is not enough of an excuse to relieve 'the workers' of their share.

They are conscious[?] adults, have enough of a brain to carry out their functions, for the capitalist system that employs them to make these weapons, to understand that bombs kill people and should have enough access (whether they choose to use it or not) to the sad and disgusting results of capitalists dropping bombs on third world women and children, to realise their part in the process.

They are not innocent, nor entirely wage slaves. They have made the decision that, the morgage, a new car, a second video for the bedroom etc etc is more important to them than the rights to life of the intended victims of their productive[sic] work.

And what the fuck is all this work ethic rationalisation?

...'Get a job' ... is not a pancea for al ills in society, and there are plenty of people who are very active (in supporting their communities and the people in them) who recieve very little in the way of support , either from the state or those communities. In fact, many 'economically inactive' people lead busier lives than those working the production lines of capitalism.

Skirt around the issues with moral relativism if you must, the point that making weapons for bossess who kill other workers is wrong stands.

This is called ethics - as distinct from morals, which are socities imposition of codes of behaviour, and often at variance with each other.

You can not promote an ethical argument for weapons production because there is none.

The workers at the nazy death camps were only doing their job right?

Abdicating responsibilty and aborogating involvement to the 'system' is the main weapon of all systems of control and produces all the very worst results.

Brecht once commented that 'a baton is a piece of wood with a worker at each end' and went on to demonstrate that fascism is the only result of ignoring this relationship.

"Using your logic all workers should be targetted because they work for capitalists."

This technique is called 'deductio ad absurditum' (or similar, I don't speak latin), taking an argument to an extreme in order to discredit moderate statements. The sum of actions taken by various groups and individuals against EDO is:

Road blockade, rooftop occupation x2, 5-day peace camp, noise protests, red paint on windows and (non-violent) home visits to the bosses (directors).

Of these, only perhaps the road block and the noise protests can be seen as targeting the workers. As a result of the roadblock, most of the workforce gladly had the day off. All were fully paid. So only really the noise protests could be construed as targeting the workers . . . am i a class traitor for blowing a whistle outside a factory? I don't think so. So 'm', how do you campaign against a company without what you class as 'targeting the workers'? Please share your wisdom, it'd be much appreciated.

"you have no right to impose your own moral code on other people"

I agree. That is why our action is purely defensive - EDO have no right to impose their capitalist morality (killing for profit = OK) on the people of Iraq, who even according to coalition polls want the troops out and the bombing to stop. We are not being coercive, but defensive. To call this 'imperialism' is to invert reality - to call self-defence murder, life death and freedom slavery. The reader can judge who are the imperialists, the British State and their lackeys or the anti-EDO campaign (or both, if you like). Your argument employs orwellian logic and is detached from reality: taking direct action against imperialism, is in your book, imperialism. I will let the reader judge.

"The war criminals are those who start the wars and reap the profits from them. Ordinary working people do not start wars or reap the huge profits from them the capitalists and politicians do."

The nuremburg trials established that following orders is no defence. NOWHERE have we blamed the workforce over the bosses or politicians. Nonetheless, people living in a welfare state with alternative employment prospects have to take some responsibility for the consequences of their work; making bombs for capitalists to kill other workers. You seem to be arguing that workers are blameless by virtue of their class, I am arguing that regardless of class people must take *some* responsibility for their actions, including 'just following orders'.

"What's this [quoting from myself] rubbish. Do you talk like that in real life or have you gone in to school essay mode?"

er, clarifying where the quote came from to demonstrate your exagerated misquote.

"Maybe you have them on campus"

Not a student. Sorry to dissapoint you.

"You've never had a real job in your life. You've never had to worry about money at all and chances are you never will have to. Fact is you are the ignorant one not the workers"

Suppostion, slander . . . do you have an argument?

I am honestly interested to know how you suggest we "Smash The Rich Bastards Who Own EDO!" - physical violence against the owners? Directors addresses are a matter of public record. Nobody's stopping you taking action in keeping with your class anaylsis. EDO Corp (EDO MBM's parent corp) is a PLC, so is probably largely owned by pension funds, i.e. workers. Personally, i am an anticapitalist, but what concrete action are you suggesting by "Smash The Rich Bastards Who Own EDO!"? I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment. Nonetheless, if EDO were an egalitarian workers co-op, I would still take issue with their profiting from war, which has no ethical justification.

Karen, I very much agree with this; "Although I can understand and sympathise with the notion that the bosses carry the lions share of 'blame' in regards to weapons production, it is not enough of an excuse to relieve 'the workers' of their share." In fact I pretty much agree with your above post.

'm' by all means criticise, but I will repeat the main question I ask of you, how do you target a company without (what you call) targeting the workers?