You can tell just by looking at the bottle that there's whisky inside can you? And you call that accurate reporting? Looks like a funny kind of top on that bottle. I'm not sure what it is, but I wouldn't be able to rule out that it was a molotov cocktail. Anyone out there willing to state unequivically that it is NOT a molotov cocktail?

I was by the stage when the arrest happened. I know the person who was arrested and know that he tried to get on the stage to make an announcement about the arrests or detainments at King's Cross. He tried to do this on a platform that Beyond ESF activists had decided not to be part of. To expect that anyone can just jump on the stage without permission goes against any notion of respect and tolerance that has been put forward by various Beyond ESF groups.

The person in question was NOT violently arrested. How about some accurate reporting. He resisted arrest by "going floppy" which is why several officers were needed to drag him away. He had originally been told he would be able to get on the stage for two minutes at 7pm by one of the stewards but was then prevented from doing so when he got to the stage. There must be some sort of civility otherwise things will descend into chaos and....anarchy. Ah. yes that is what some people want. So its not about freedom and tolerance and compassion and rights, its about a few people getting off on violent confrontation. How is that going to sway London that these fringe movements have humanity's best interests at heart. I'm a Londoner who is against this illegal war and know that the governments of the West are lying to us but I cannot see how the behaviour of these activists is going to change politics for the better.

From what I could see the police were even-handed though it must be said that the surveillance police ignored calls from stewards to get down off the lion plinth by the stage where they were filming the group of activists who had ammassed by the stage. But can you argue that they are heavy-handed when they are facing 30-50 activists with their faces covered who are pushing against the stewards prepared to do who knows what to get on the stage?

As far as I can tell the Wombles and anyone connected with them have marred the good work they achieved with the autonomous spaces and their creative work by their impulsive behaviour on Sunday at Trafalgar Square. No doubt that the ESF/Stopwar/SWP have an agenda that excludes many groups, but the wombles boasted on their websites that they have used molotov cocktails at Prague (check the website). No matter the propaganda that all police are pigs, officers are also there to protect what the wombles describe as "so-called" everyday people from violence.

I agree with many of the ideals of sections of the anarchist movement as I do with sections of the socialist and environmental movements. But it is clear from this week that the nefarious activities of some sections of the anarchist bloc, barely concealed addiction to violent resistance, and unwillingness to cooperate with groups they do not agree with, leaves them in a marginalised position and excludes them from the broad left debate.

Once again sectarianism has causd an ever-greater fragmentation of the anti-war, anti-corporate movement. rather than reaching out to the majority these fringe groups are marginalising themselves, disconnecting from the majority. As such I cannot see how they will form a broad movement and surely this is what we need at this crucial moment in history.

Is it not possible for all those who reject war and know that another world is possible, to get round a table together and sort out these differences with dialogue rather than hatred and recriminations?

but I hope you are not talking about me, I was arrested NOT trying to get to the stage but trying to speak to someone and peacefully resisting being kicked out of my own mobilisation.

Joolz, I dont know who you are, but If you claim to know me and in the same sentence hint that I could be carrying a molotov cocktail into the stage, I dont think you actually know me. Please tell me this in my face next time we meet, rather than trolling on Indymedia.

By the way, the person framed for the whisky coconut was not me in any case.

JAvier

Hello,

I was there when this arrestation happened, and I want to mention that the first comment is totally mistaken. The guy wanted to open a bottle of whisky (I KNOW that was whisky) with a little knife, when the cops saw the knife, they ran on him and put him down to the ground very violently. We tried to prevent them from taking him to the police station just for having a knife, but we failed. That is the whole strory. The cops reacted clearly in a brutal disproportionate way.

Javier,

First of all, apologies if you think I was accusing you of having anything to do with the molotov cocktail (or whisky bottle as it now appears). I was referrring to the original post because the impression the original poster seemed to be putting forward was that he could tell it was not a molotov cocktail just by looking at it. But actually the video didn't show you at all. Nevertheless there was quite a group behind you with their masks on. Are you telling me they were all peaceful protestors?

I do know you Javier, from LARC (Giulio who used to work at the Times - cue the bigoted response from some on these boards - and what I get alot of at the squat parties but that's another story), and I know from talking to you that you have never spoken about violent actvism. Quite the contrary I had a few conversations with you last year and you gave me quite alot of hope that non-violent activism could be put forward as an effective method of change and your work with the radio station and at LARC was inspirational to me for a time. But I also had reservations then about some of the other organisations on the fringes of LARC who seemed to work in very covert ways which would lead anyone to be suspicious. Without transparency any movement is open to infiltration and corruption.

But I do not know whether you believe these things now after the frustrations of the last few months and I only bumped into you recently a few weeks ago after not seeing you for several months.

I was standing by you when you were pulled away and I did not see what led to that incident. I spoke to a steward who explained that she had agreed to allow a request to speak on the platform at 7pm. What happened after that? I don't know the ins and outs but I was just concerned with some balanced reporting rather than the obvious "protestor good, police bad" caricature. Something must have happened for the stopwar lot to request that police take you away (is that what happened or were the police taking the initiative?)

Javier, I don't know if you represented the Beyond ESF platform, but this is the point that I most urgently want to stress. It seems obvious to those who have been paying attention that the Socialist bloc that formed the ESF and indeed the stopwar lot have many negative qualities attached to them, and the majority of the public are losing trust with these people. I don't know anyone (apart from socialist workers) who has a good word to say about Lindsey German and in my head they couldn't have destroyed the momentum of 2million on the streets on Feb 15 2003 more if they had attempted to do so deliberately (which conspiracy theorists can play with all they like - infiltration anyone?)

But when the Wombles made their statement on their website that they would not take part in the official ESF they closed down a communication channel with the official stopwar body that might have been crucial at just the point when you may have wanted to get on the stage to announce what had happened at King's Cross. It is vital that these channels are kept open without resorting to instransigence of the kind that prevents someone from talking to someone because they are holding a can of Coke. That will get us nowhere. Whatever the ESF's faults it was a networking of people opposed to the war (to call Ken Livingstone pro-war because he is in the labour party is crazy - so is Jeremy Corbyn pro-war too?) That is what politics is about, talking to people you sometimes vehemently disagree with. The actions of the 200 or so who stormed into Alexandra Palace wiped out all the good work that had been created with the Autonomous Spaces. The memory that lingers now is that the anarchists have no respect for anyone who doesn't agree with them. How is that going to bring the masses to follow them?

If there is going to be any real change our movement has to become a popular movement and that means that anarchists, socialists and the like must put aside ideologies and FIRST connect with the people in a human way. But from the Wombles site and from noticing that LARC has hosted night for Class War I do not feel this is the way forward for a popular movement.

Hate will never win the day whether it is aimed at George Bush or Osama Bin Laden. For me the scuffles were expected. I did not expect to see you being dragged away. I have no doubt of your integrity and honesty but I think that it did not achieve anything other than anger those behind you, some of who may see this as a signal to get "spikier" at future demos.

I hope that when we next meet, you will not resent the fact that I spoke my mind, and respect the fact I have grave reservations about the reactionary politics which seem to be predominating the true and growing movement for social change.

Best wishes

Joolz

Joolz comments well uniformed and selective. So I will respond to his bullshit in an appropriate manner as follows.

Fuck the middle classes. Fuck the Times and Fuck you you hippocricical prick. No war but the Class war you precious tart. You really think we want a middle class revolution! Fuck that you leeches. Time to pay motherfuckers. Go kiss your cops. Polite response. Bigotry? You patronising fuckwit!

Class war? Take the class out of politic?

Don't let these bourgouis tarts and there "oh look at those violent protestors, aren't we good nice little protestors, the police are only doing their job etc etc. " You won't get any change out of that.

In case you don't get the message. Fuck off scum.
Lifestyle choice.? Fashion? Conncience salving? And the charity leeches. Fuck off scum?

Interesting use of question marks there knucklehead. So how many million do you suppose have to die before your glorious revolution happens? Bit nihilistic your worldview. Good job the majority, the masses (remember them?) reject your anger and bile as a possible solution to the world's crisis. You are the minority. And yes, seeing me as a hypocrite cos i worked for the times is one way of looking at it...of course no one could ever call you a hypocrite, right?