Indymedia Bristol Server Seized by Police
features | 28.06.2005 08:56 | G8 2005 | Indymedia | Repression | Technology | London
On Monday, June 27th, Indymedia Bristol's server was seized by the police. An Indymedia volunteer was arrested during the raid on suspicion of incitement to criminal damage. He is now on bail. See Indymedia Bristol Statement (28th June 05):
"We are outraged at the actions of the police. They have completely disabled the entire Bristol Indymedia news service. By their actions they have undermined the principle of open publishing and free access to the media, thereby removing people's opportunity to read and report their own news. This situation has serious implications for anyone providing a news service on the Internet. We do not intend to let this stop us from continuing the project."
IMC Bristol statements [1 | 2] | Imc Bristol Solidarity Page | Full Feature | donate to imc uk | Autistici Server Surveillance | Mainstream Media Coverage
Last week, police demanded access to the server to gain the IP details of a posting. The alternative media outlet is receiving advice from civil liberties organisations and the NUJ. Before being legally forced to hand over the server, Indymedia Bristol stated: "We do not intend to voluntarily hand over information to the police as they have requested". Bristol Indymedia see the seizure of their server and the arrest of one of their volunteers as an attack on the freedom of speech.
This is the second time that law enforcement authorities have attacked Indymedia servers in the UK in the run up to a major event. Last October, just prior to the European Social Forum, Indymedia servers in London were seized in an international law enforcement operation - prompting a wave of protests and solidarity statements from a wide range of organisations [report]. This time, events are unfolding one week before the G8 Summit begins in Scotland.
In order to provide grass-roots non-corporate coverage during the G8 protests and events, Indymedia UK needs additional http mirrors to help decrease bandwidth costs. If you would like to help, please contact us at imc-uk-contact@lists.indymedia.org or donate here.
Here are some more details
On Monday 27th June the police raided a residential property in Bristol and seized an Indymedia server and other computer equipment. They also arrested one person for incitement to criminal damage under common law. That person has since been released on bail. We see this police action as an attack on the freedom of speech and journalistic independence.
This police action relates to an article posted on 17th June in which persons unknown claimed to have damaged cars being transported on a train. This article was considered by Bristol Indymedia to have breached the guidelines and was hidden.
On Monday 20th the police contacted Bristol Indymedia with reference to this posting. Bristol Indymedia informed the police that they were in the process of instructing a solicitor to reply on their behalf. On Tuesday 21st the police contacted a Bristol Indymedia volunteer requesting the IP logs. Bristol Indymedia considered that the system was journalistic material covered by special provision under the law.
A solicitor from Liberty faxed the police explaining this provision. The police then contacted Bristol Indymedia to request a meeting which Bristol Indymedia agreed to. Ten minutes before the arranged meeting DI Bennett of British Transport Police cancelled the meeting and asked to postpone it.
The next police contact was the seizure of the server and the arrest of a Bristol Indymedia volunteer. The seizure of the server was carried out under a search warrant (police and criminal evidence act 1984, ss.8 and 15), not recognising the journalistic privilege.
Commenting on the heavy-handed approach of the Bristol police, who threatened that "they may arrest somebody for obstructing the course of justice", an Imc Uk volunteer said: "It's like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut (27 June)". Lee Salter, a lecturer in Journalism, agrees:
"The seizure of the Indymedia Bristol server illuminated deficits in the law. Law protecting journalists were drafted with mainstream news organisations in mind, so it cannot cope with media collectives. Whilst the police might well have had good reason to investigate the claims made on Indymedia Bristol's web site, by effectively shutting down the whole operation the police have acted insensitively and have used rather extreme methods, especially when Bristol IMC have been far from uncooperative (29 June)."
An Imc techie added: "I do not believe that there is any useful information that the police could gain from the server seizure (27 June)."
The editor of Free Internet Press states: "As a news source, I can simply say how we'd feel. We would be absolutely furious if anyone attempted to tamper with our equipment. We support Indymedia. Attempts to silence any media organization cannot be tolerated! There is quite a bit to this issue, we suggest you read all the links in the story."
Press contact for Bristol Indymedia:Ana - Bristol Indymedia Volunteer / 07976 787335
Email: bristolindymedia@hush.com
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org
features
Comments
Hide the following 66 comments
LEGAL FUND
28.06.2005 10:17
Other methods of donating may follow shortly. For the moment it's the old-fangled cheque / postal order way of doing things.
Cheques can be made out to:
Bristol Indymedia. Box 3. 82 Colston Street, Bristol BS1 5BB
Thanks.
Friends Of BIM
Storm In A Toothglass
28.06.2005 10:22
Some twat went on BIM boasting about how they'd bricked trains "to warm up for the G8". BIM mods left the post up for a long time, then only "hid" rather than "deleted" it.
Several people called the cops as a result of the inciteful tone of the post. It really was some psychopath quite blatantly pimping for serious crime, and in no way consisted of "reportage".
Bit sad really.
Anonymouse
Reservations
28.06.2005 11:31
The point is whether or not the seizure of the server is justified. I really don't think that should a letter be written to the Times about such behaviour the police would seize all copies of the Times, or their computers. Bristol IMC have been reasonably cooperative with the police. The police wanted Bristol IMC's IP logs, which BIMC do not have, and having been told they do not exist, went ahead and seized the server. The fact is that the police could have got all the information BIMC has by other means - it is hardly the case that the IMC is secretive - all of its activity is public and open to anyone to participate or view. Because of this, one wonders whether the idea is to harrass and interrupt the IMC (let's face it that is hardly a new tactic).
Lee
imc bristol server seizure in other media
28.06.2005 12:39
28.06.2005: the INQUIRER - "Second UK Indymedia server downed by iPlod"
28.06.2005 heise.de - "Indymedia UK beklagt Repressalien"
28.06.2005 derStandard.at - "Repression gegen Indymedia UK"
transmitter
Maybe indymedia should change
28.06.2005 14:09
On a different issue, if a guy starts writing posts about throwing rocks or kicking asses, or killing pigs and the police is investigating, the least to say is that they are either paranoid and "afraid" or they simply want to clamp down on anyone who is not tranquilized. I write many things in forums and I have every right to do so. The owner of the forum is not responsible for my idiocies or my sage thoughts.
Peace
NG
Is there any evidence that a crime took place
28.06.2005 14:24
Thern some dude called Zasker called the cops. But what of the damaged train, is there one ?
It would be very, very easy for anyone to claim to have commited a crime in a posting on Indymedia.
The cops then sieze the server, but is there any other evidence to prove that the alleged offence actually
happen and is not 100% virtual ?
hot rod
Appropriate Actions
28.06.2005 15:00
Luke
e-mail:
Luke132@yahoo.com
Why
28.06.2005 15:40
Adam
Re: Why?
28.06.2005 16:14
Ian Harris
e-mail:
ian@ianharris.com
more mainstream coverage
28.06.2005 16:27
munkeeunit
Alternative Bristol Information Outlets
28.06.2005 16:40
So...
The Bristol Social Forum & Bristol Stop-The-War message boards have now been opened up so that anyone can currently post to them from any email account (although posts will continue to be moderated and there may be a delay of a few days on the Bristol Social Forum so that emails can be sent out in more user friendly batches direct to people's inboxes.)
As it has a subscription base of 350+, it is a valuable outlet.
Bristol Social Forum. (Bristol / South West focussed posts please)
Anyone can post to:
Visit:
You can also subscribe if you like, instructions at bottom of page, or PM me.
Bristol Stop The War. (National level posts are also welcome here)
Anyone can post to:
99% of subscribers only receive the monthly newsletter direct to their inbox, but it is widely publicised as a public message board too, so it has it's uses.
I hope this helps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A number of other contacts were given, but they seem less necessary now, as our networks aren't completely destroyed, and the additional contacts were postal addresses and alternative emails.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
munkeunit
Whoops!
28.06.2005 16:44
munkeeunit
EXTRA OUTLET NOTE
28.06.2005 17:21
munkeeunit
Why all the negative energy?
28.06.2005 21:41
JoshTheMan
The Three Steps To Tyranny
29.06.2005 02:27
Want to learn about your rights? Read The Citizen's Manifesto.
George French
Ah well...
29.06.2005 09:06
To the survivalist above - You didn't mention our lizard masters mate, I feel you're somewhat off the mark...
See you later educator
So was it just a virtual crime or WOT ?
29.06.2005 13:33
Is there any evidence other than the BIMC posting to suggest that a crime actually took place ??
Hot Dog
Reality Check
29.06.2005 14:21
Such an ironic statement, seeing that Indymedia editors regularly violate freedom of speach by removing comments, articles and in some circumstances, carefully researched journalistic endeavor from Indymedia, if that material is anything must entirely supportive of the most hardcore left wing bias.
Punk Kid
Once again...
29.06.2005 17:26
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Was Indymedia Framed By The Freemason Scum?
30.06.2005 00:17
Or is this just another publicity stunt? "Be scared to voice your opinions!!!" (just like the Nazis that Blair & Co. try so hard to emulate).
At the risk of sounding paranoid, they already have full access to IP logs and probably every keystroke you have ever made. If you think Windows is "secure" then start by reading this
article:
M$ Windows XP Professional Bugging Device?
at
Don't be scared by these bullshit tactics ...
Angry Manc
e-mail:
angry_manc@hotmail.com
Alternative Bristol Inforation Outlets
30.06.2005 11:51
So...
The Bristol Social Forum & Bristol Stop-The-War message boards have now been opened up so that anyone can currently post to them from any email account (although posts will continue to be moderated and there may be a delay of a few days on the Bristol Social Forum so that emails can be sent out in more user friendly batches direct to people's inboxes.)
As it has a subscription base of 350+, it is a valuable outlet.
Bristol Social Forum. (Bristol / South West focussed posts please)
Anyone can post to:
Visit:
You can also subscribe if you like, instructions at bottom of page.
Bristol Stop The War. (National level posts are also welcome here)
Anyone can post to:
99% of subscribers only receive the monthly newsletter direct to their inbox, but it is widely publicised as a public message board too, so it has it's uses.
repost
Come On...
30.06.2005 11:57
Is it not your civic duty to report such crimes and fully cooperate with police regarding said crimes?
Is the unwillingness to cooperate over this issue and your cries of 'preventing free-speech' not infact just covering an obstruction of justice on your part?
Tom
going off topic slightly
30.06.2005 12:05
Has this implications for what the authorities can get from the siezed servers even if IP logs are not officially kept?
Is there any reason why this was hidden/removed?
Andy q
Hidden posts
30.06.2005 12:26
As stated previously, the item you talk about is install by a virus - follow the advice on the post.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Tom
30.06.2005 12:30
It is not a civic duty to provide information that could be false and be planted by someone trying to take down the service. Looking at the other article that appeared on the newswire today it appears that another site ' Euskalinfo.org.uk' was alson on the server - this site being dedicated to providing information on police abuse?
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Westcountry IMC
30.06.2005 12:42
SEE REGIONAL LINKS ON LEFT OF SCREEN
j
whose servers are legitimate to seize?
30.06.2005 16:33
it seems that the UK is providing indymedia with some test cases - the seizure last october, and now this! how far are the authorities willing to stretch this logic?? would they shut down the server of a massive corporation, because an anonymous poster published something distasteful? And if not, why is indymedia being treated with a double standard? In my opinion, it doesn't matter so much WHAT was posted by the anonymous poster, what matters is the double standard being carried out by the authorities in this case. Why should a corporation have more rights than Indymedia?? (I say this because I would guess that NO, the authorities would not shut down the entire site of yahoo.com if one anonymous poster published something disturbing to the authorities on that site)
indymedia volunteer in the US
crime
30.06.2005 17:43
As far as I can tell the mods didn't take it down quickly enough and never erased it properly.
If it had been any other website such posts would have been erased and the users banned. But Indymedia seem to think they have the right to represent violent thugs. This is not what journalism is about and now they are going to have to suffer the consequences of their actions, namely, of being a accessory after the fact to vandalism of railways (a serious crime which has caused derailments and deaths in the past) and incitement.
Free speech is not free; you can't shout "fire!" in a crowded theater or crack wise about hijackings on a plane. That's just the way it goes. Grow up.
Well done to the idiot who made the post BTW, he's sure screwed thing up. I'm sure the police were happy to have an excuse to clamp down, btw, but why did IM hand it to them on a plate with their imcompetent site management and tolerance of lowlife thugs on their site? To those involved, do they know how many people die as a result of such "pranks"? Are they really happy to help such people get away with it?
I think some people need to seriously re-examine their "radical consciences".
a british person
PS
30.06.2005 17:48
post script
"Real" Media
30.06.2005 18:07
peterg
Happy to help
30.06.2005 18:18
What if someone sent you that information in an email? Or told you about it down the pub? Would you be straight down to the cop shop, DNA sample and ID card in hand, ready to answer any questions about your personal life the police want to ask you?
Altogether now: if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Especially if you are the kind of law abiding citizen that would always do whatever the state told you to do under any circumstances and would always share everything you know with it.
Stuerz
PPS
30.06.2005 18:51
Hmm, surely that'd be 'ALLEGEDLY protecting ALLEGED vandals whose ALLEGED actions ALLEGEDLY endanger lives"
it seems pretty obvious that the position of BIMC is about protecting the integrity of the open publishing system, rather than actively protecting what was most likely a poster who made an ill-advised post that had no basis in fact, and probably a substance fuelled idea that has since passed. Either that or a post from a copper or troll............
If I told you to go put your head in a fire, would you do it?
If so, then I guess that would be incitement.
No way would the original problem post make me go drop anything on a train.
Hows about you?
smelling a rat
crime
30.06.2005 19:34
They were not on holiday, the site was under constant moderation. The mod ignored the post.
This is the kind of distortion one would expect the Republican party to hand down to critics, but not supposed free thinkers like you.
"What if someone sent you that information in an email? Or told you about it down the pub? Would you be straight down to the cop shop, DNA sample and ID card in hand, ready to answer any questions about your personal life the police want to ask you?"
Again, you are distorting the issue. Nobody told IM anything- they posted it directly on to the board, which was being actively moderated at the time, and nobody thought to remove it.
If you run a talkboard you are responsible for what gets posted on it. What if someone had posted a load of nazi stuff about how they'd attacked black people? Would IMC protect them as well?
This is no different to a post boasting about racist attacks being left up.
"it seems pretty obvious that the position of BIMC is about protecting the integrity of the open publishing system, rather than actively protecting what was most likely a poster who made an ill-advised post that had no basis in fact, and probably a substance fuelled idea that has since passed. Either that or a post from a copper or troll "
Yes, I agree, IMC were actively protecting someone who was either (a) a criminal, (b) a troll or (c) a cop.
IMC: Standing up for the rights of trolls, criminals and agents provocateurs!
Oh, and... how DOES shielding a dangerous vandal "protect the integrity of the open publishing system"?
Seriously, this kind of thing gives activists a very bad name- not unlike those guys who trashed a McDonalds while the employees and customers were still in it.
I certainly don't want to be involved with people who don't know the difference between letting trolls and crooks loose on their talkboard and journalism.
Just do yourself one favour, "free thinkers": Think about it by yourself for five minutes. Then ask a moderator of any other talkboard what they would do if such a post appeared.
It seems IMC want to be the exception to all rules of ethics and standards; to have all of the rights and none of the responsibilities.
That isn't how the world works; you leave posts calling for people to perform dangerous and illegal acts up, you have to take the consequences. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime- in future DELETE all posts calling for people to smash things up and endager people's lives- unless you like the taste of porridge or something...
crime
LEGAL FUND
30.06.2005 20:29
All donations towards new server / legal costs will very much appreciated.
Other methods of donating may follow shortly. For the moment it's the old-fangled cheque / postal order way of doing things.
Cheques can be made out to:
Bristol Indymedia. Box 3. Greenleaf Books, 82 Colston Street, Bristol BS1 5BB
Thanks.
Friends Of BIM
repost
Do people read?
30.06.2005 20:34
Do the new posters not bother to read the previous discussion? It just seems to be a lot of recycling going on (and not the good kind).
Maybe the post should be altered to address some of the issues? So that people will read them at the same time as the original article?
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Jeepers
30.06.2005 21:06
I reported the original post to the police because i was horrified at what they did.
I (naively) assumed that BIM would supply the details requested to the police.
They decided not due, due process ensued.
Please note that the post was seen by many of the mods long befor it was removed by a wiser person. And yes I do have the proof.
All a bit silly really isnt it. If they had handed over the info the server would still be up and the polce would not have been able to inspect the server for any other details, oh and the rock droppers who endangerd lives may have been caught faster.
I understnd that the vocal idiot group amongst activists would have slughtered bim as 'collaberators' if they had (gasp) assisted the police so they perhaps had little choice.
Certainly some of the crap I have seen written about me is pant wettingly fun. I have been called a 'state collabarator' and a 'tout' and have recieved plenty of threats against me. Absoloutly daft.
The IQ of tyhis debate has been negative and the conduct of some of those striving to create a better world nothing short of disgracefull. Thuggery, lies and distortion and a base level of ignorance that I thought only the right could aspire to.
I have even been accused of 'attacking activists' by 'filming without thier permission', this is one of the best I have heard thru all this outpouring of ignorant verbiage. Tossers.
All this by keyboard revoloutionaries who hide behind stoopid made up names as they play thier lynch mob game, you make me sick and amused in equal measure.
Apologies to those of a more sensible orientation.
I am further amused by sme of the rants going the rounds on all these looney email lists about me, god it's just like at school with secret clubs and goodies and baddies, really !
So, if anyone is actually interested in the truth of what I did and why contact me on the e mail above and I am happy to discuss all this sensibly.
I shall continue doing what I have always done. That is having an open and questioning mind not above challenging some of the harmfull dogma I see spouted as fact.
And no I wont stop filming.
Zaskar
e-mail:
markdwatson@blueyonder.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.zaskarfilms.com
Loyalty
30.06.2005 21:46
Well I'm not loyal to the neocon monkey.
I'm patriotic and loyal to Bristol Indymedia!
I used to live in Connecticut, old ties die hard I guess.
redlight
e-mail:
billg@micro$oft.com
so..
30.06.2005 22:24
you're walking home along the street quite late at night
you hear a man loudly and violently threatening a woman in a nearby alley
you choose to ignore it as its none of your buisiness what goes on in the streets
another person walking home that night hears what is going on and calls the police
the following morning the police go around neighboring properties asking for a statement
you refuse to give a statement even though you got a good view of the mans face because you dont know for certain that the man you saw actually assualted the woman
the man does not get identified and goes on to attack many more women
just because you believe in anti-authoritarian ways does not exempt you from ANY responsibility for what you choose to do, or what you choose to ignore.
Tom
Zaskar...
30.06.2005 23:06
'Collaborating', as you put it, with the police does not help us. All it does is help them make up more shit to throw at us for protesting.
If BIMC had said 'yeah sure, here is what you want officer', that would have been the end of the site as a reasonable place to post information anonymously. People would not trust the site to keep their identities secret and thus would stop posting there.
Informing the police about a post on indymedia is not useful. All it does is make the state more knowledgable about how things are done. And it will make life worse for yourself, but not in the ways you have described (threats etc...). Instead the police will see you as a good way of getting information and will approach you for information as often as they can.
Your actions have discredited you to the entire movement and as such you will, probably, not get co-operation from anyone.
Also, beware of the camera. If you film demos, you will eventually have problems (intimidation, cameras confiscated for evidence, threats to do with injunctions etc...).
I will not go into any of the practical arguments about the specific case, as I already (along with many others) have already done this.
I just hope you learn the error of what you have done and realise that being part of a movement is above your ideas of good and bad and is to do with discussing things and seeing what others think.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Straw Man Posturing
30.06.2005 23:07
Other examples I've seen have compared it to opening fire in a crowded shopping mall. This would be fine if the incident had related to shooting at property in a crowded shopping mall, but it relates to dropping rocks on a goods vehicle in an area with an immediate population density approaching zero.
This is not to justify the incident, but it is to place it in it's correct context without depending on hysterical comparisons which have no or little bearing on the case itself.
straw man alley
TONY B-LIAR DECLARES WAR ON FREE SPEECH
30.06.2005 23:34
THIS IS THE FIRST MOVE OF THE STATE IN THEIR UNDECLARED WAR ON CIVIL LIBERTIES AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH!
THE POLICE WOULD NOT HAVE DARED MAKE SUCH A MOVE WITHOUT THE INSTRUCTION OF THEIR POLITICAL MASTERS IN THE BLIAR GOVERNMENT.
Marty
Glazer!
30.06.2005 23:52
How would he like it if Osama Bin Laden bought the New York Yankees and loaded it with debt,shoved up the prices and said that he had been a fan all along because he once shared a tent with a Jets fan (or another baseball club,who cares what those puffs are called).
GWB can go to hell and take his Florida multi-millionaire parasites with him. go load up Hell FC with debt you burger munching,friendly fire practicing,National Park visiting sluts.
9/11 ?
Saha and Giggs?
GWB and Glazer? 2 strumpets in an Aldi bag.
BigRonWasWrong
crime
01.07.2005 00:10
This is not to justify the incident, but it is to place it in it's correct context without depending on hysterical comparisons which have no or little bearing on the case itself.
Of course it is to justify the incident.
Another good comparison is if one of these loonies set fire to a petrol station. "Virtually nobody" would be in the area, the risk would be "very low", and the aim would be to damage property.
This is of course the kind of double talk Blair uses to justify his endless series of wars. Perhaps when they grow out of their "anarchist phase" these people can get jobs working for the government as PRs.
These dangerous idiots seem to want to provoke the police into over-reacting and clamping down.
Screw 'em.
crime
Big problem with attacks on trains
01.07.2005 07:56
James Williams
e-mail:
perfectservice2002@yahoo.co.uk
PATHOLOGICAL LIAR
01.07.2005 08:36
After making many claims that he is a member of the NUJ, for example.
The truth is that,
ZASKAR HAS LIED ABOUT BEING A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL UNION OF JOURNALISTS.
This man should not be trusted with any personal info for your own safety.
truth doctor
HAHAHA!!!
01.07.2005 08:51
What a laugh. Put another way 'controlled anarchy', aka. parliamentary democracy.
Anarchy doesn't have limits.
Did you not read any of the other comments above - they seem to explain quite well why people didn't 'co-operate' with the police.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
More Straw Man Posturing
01.07.2005 09:26
This is in fact another ridiculous straw man comparison. Setting fire to a petrol station creates the risk of casusing a huge explosion in highly population dense residential areas. This is a stupid comparison to dropping a rock on empty cars on an otherwise empty freight train.
Any judge wanting to ascertain the exact nature of this case would want to know why you are not arguing about the danger level of the action in hand, but instead referring to barely relevant hysterical comparisons.
Law societies in any university spend most of their time learning how to identify and destroy straw man methods of argument, as in the above.
straw man alley
Surpising...
01.07.2005 12:50
Do you *want* to be hanging banners for the rest of your lives, or do you actually want to see some kind of social change?
When we look up into the sky find it's grey and dying, and we have to wear masks because we've screwed up the air, I wonder whether you'll be so concerned about some cars getting damaged. Because the world will be dead.
Sarah
crime
01.07.2005 12:55
what James WIlliams said:
"Anyone who reads railway newspapers or websites knows there is currently a big problem of people throwing stuff at trains off bridges, etc, this has resulted in several near-fatalities of railway staff in recent years, and may in the future cause a major crash. A related nationwide trend is throwing rocks, etc, at passing vehicles from motorway bridges. Both have become so widespread that British Transport Police have started installing video surveillance at numerous common "throwing points" around the country in the hope of capturing the yobs who do this. Against this background I'm puzzled by the behaviour of Bristol Indymedia, to they really think that protecting advocates of this deranged criminality is analagous to campaigning against the evils of capitalism?"
:-)
Learn some personal responsibility if you want the rights. The right to walk around free is contingent on you not causing accidents on the railway. If you must cause accidents, then boast about them and incite others to do so in public, then you can expect to spend a loooong time inside. GOOD RIDDANCE.
If you facilitate this incitement and protect the identity of the thug in question, you can expect at the very least that your website will go down, and that you will get a fine. Because IM are not being journalists, they are not being protesters, they are being absolutely irresponsible idiots allowing this fuckwit's criminally inciteful post to stay up and by protecting him are making themselves accessories after the fact.
If you want to live in a country where you can attack people and property with impunity, I suggest you pack your AK47 and head for one of the world's trouble spots- Africa, the Middle East, and many parts of Russia and America are completely lawless and you can do what you want.
Just leave the rest of us in PEACE, you VIOLENT, CRIMINAL SCUM.
"Law societies in any university spend most of their time learning how to identify and destroy straw man methods of argument, as in the above."
Are you a lawyer? 'Cause I think that pretty much demolilshes your argument, as lawyers are paid to get people off whether they are giulty or not (or get them done whether they are guilty or not), not establish the truth. Exploiting the "legal fiction" that the person who is best at arguing is telling the truth is well known facet of psychopaths and criminal lawyers alike. Look at the Micheal Jackson case- a pervie who slept with small boys got off because he had a good lawyer.
Are you going to argue that this rock throwing yob was merely protesting against capitalism when he caused thousands of pounds worth of damage and endangered peoples lives, or are you going to mount your previous "Tony Blair defence" of violent crime, that "hardly anyone" was in danger?
I really want to see this when it gets up in court.
crime
crime
01.07.2005 13:23
THROWING MISSILES
Commonly known by the railway community as stone throwing. Again there are two levels of offence for throwing missiles at trains, either intended or likely to cause damage or injury.
If committed with intent to cause injury or to endanger safety then the maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Recorded Offences
There are many categories of offence that constitute railway crime. The following offences are recorded for the generic terms trespass and vandalism.
Trespass is commonly seen as minor misdemeanour and outside the railway environment it is largely a civil offence.
However on the railways trespassing on or near railway lines is a CRIMINAL offence and liable to a fine of up to £1,000.
Within British criminal law there is no such offence as vandalism. Railway vandalism is therefore split into four CRIMINAL OFFENCES.
Endangering Safety - if committed with intent the maximum penalty is LIFE IMPRISONMENT
Obstructing Trains - if committed with intent the maximum penalty is LIFE IMPRISONMENT
Throwing missiles - if committed with intent to cause injury or endanger safety the maximum penalty is LIFE IMPRISONMENT
Criminal damage - offences of criminal damage to railway infrastructure, trains or wagons the maximum penalty is 10 YEARS IMPRISONMENT.
Offences recorded by British Transport Police are as follows:
Vandalism Trespass Total
1998/99 12,855 13,901 26,756
1999/00 13,743 14,964 28,707
2000/01 13,349 15,395 28,774
2001/02 15,075 16,779 31,854
2002/03 17,219 15,405 32,624
Please Note these are RECORDED offences. The estimate of actual offences that are not reported to the British Transport Police is far higher. (please see section 'Research')
Research Study 1998
A research study conducted on behalf of the industry in 1998 established that:
the prime perpetrators of railway crime with potential to cause harm, are 8-14 year old males
the prime time for criminal activity by this age group is in the spring right through until the autumn.
other people at risk include adults who take short cuts across the track as well as older youths.
During the study some frightening facts emerged:
Over 30% of school pupils interviewed admitted to being involved in one or more acts of railway crime
20% said they had taken short cuts across or along a railway line
10% said they had thrown things on a railway line
8% had placed objects on the line or thrown things at passing trains
Of the reasons given for such dangerous activities,
32% said "Nothing else to do"
22% said "My friend wanted me to do it"
18% said "It was exciting"
Aidan Nelson of Railway Safety comments: "Summer is a key time for railway crime. Railway stations and areas near tracks are often used as unofficial youth clubs by children with lots of spare holiday time and nothing to do.
"Railway Crime results in lives being lost and extremely serious injuries. We must get the message across to youngsters that they're playing with people's lives - and their own - when they play on or near the railway."
Do you get that? Your buddy the rock thrower is looking at ten years to life, for a stupid and childish act which recklessly endangers other people. And a GOOD THING TOO, this kind of behaviour serves no political purpose but to tarnish activists as a bunch of mindless yobs.
Why don't these assholes just fuck off. Just fuck off, take a holiday in a war zone or or something if you want to play at being hard, and leave the rest of us alone. We really don't need scum like this around us.
crime
Even More Straw Man Posturing
01.07.2005 13:28
Judging people, not on their basis of their own actions, but on the basis of some other crime they have not committed, but which you would prefer to try them on, is generally the reserve of dictatorships which do not recognise the rule of law and due process.
straw man alley
crime
01.07.2005 15:51
You're a nice guy.
crime
i guess
01.07.2005 16:04
but then whats one guy's live when it comes to global warming and G8..
oh thats right. bricking trrains and other such wanton vandalism in the name of 'political protesting' will have NO effect on ANYTHING apart from tarnish your name to the point of pity and ridicule.
Tom
Devilish Courtrooms
01.07.2005 16:30
Drop a brick on a freight train, and you'll get tried for opening fire in a crowded shopping mall by this lot.
straw man alley
Well...
01.07.2005 16:43
Rather they are a bunch of self publicists, middle class thugs and attention seekers.
This incident reminds me of that legendary trashing of the McDonalds while terror-stricken customers and staff were still in it, while it was attacked by rioting public schoolboys.I admit I don't know how much of this is true, but attacking poor working class people while claiming to be defending them is a staple of Stalinist morons everywhere. Just like Mr. Train Bricker there- endangering the life of an evil capitalist, er, working person, because it wil no doubt bring down the system and blah blah blah blah.
These people are obviously dangerous extremists and a distraction from real politics- just like their buddies the fascists. And just like their buddies the fascists they almost certainly have paid police agents provocateurs in their ranks.
Like those Black Block fuckheads who show up whenever there is a demo and try their best to ensure that violence kicks off- even when it is a totally fluffy anti war demo, they're there with their motorbike helmets and their riot gear. Morons.
We don't need these parasites or their "summit spectaculars".
Indeedy
Response To Ah Well
01.07.2005 16:45
However, the internet is the last vestige of free and independent speech. I wouldn't be surprised to discover similar programs in vogue today. In our family history, after Dunkirk, my grandfather was part of the only equipped military force in England - the First Canadian Division. There has been derision at the Poles fighting German Armour with cavalry. If Hitler did invade Englishmen hurling sticks and stones would have been even more obscene. On the continent our family succumbed to Mr. Hitler. You see there was conspiracy talk that he was going to take over the world. People laughed at the reptilian virtues of the master race. Quite funny stuff.
Mr. Churchill said in his famous We Shall Fight on the beaches speech some marvellous words. However, he left some out. We were not conditioned to fight in the boardrooms or the classrooms, and there the battle was lost. However, with some remedial work, all might not be lost.
In 1995 at a meeting of The Gorbachev Foundation in San Francisco, some of the greatest minds met to discuss the world. In spite of the fact Ted Turner of CNN was attending and the key debate involved Margaret Thatcher, George Bush, and Mikhail Gorbachev there was next to no media attention given to the 'State of the World Forum.' We were debased with the O.J. Simpson verdict. A keynote speaker Barbara Marx Hubbard's words are chilling to this day. "We are in charge of God's selection process for the planet Earth. He selects, we destroy. We are the riders of the pale horse death." No wonder they want the guns.
The same thing happened in Germany. The Jews were disarmed. The Wannsee Conference was held in secret and...the rest is history soon to be repeated. Only this time grandfather is passed away and it's our fight now. Are you prepared?
George French
e-mail:
George@spyman.zzn.com
Homepage:
http://www.spyman.ca
Me a fibber ?
01.07.2005 21:08
But I am in a msf, rcn, and bectu.
Hope that clears that up.
Zaskar
e-mail:
markdwatson@blueyonder.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.zaskarfilms.com
PATHOLOGICAL LIAR
02.07.2005 09:26
Very different to your occassional fibber.
truth doctor
ethical dilemma
02.07.2005 16:37
But what do you do in such an extreme situation where violence has been used? Call the cops and be a grass, or just lave it hoping someone else will sort it out? Apparently there have been cases where Indymedia posters have claimed to have murdered policemen as a political act. Is this really what we're fighting for, the right to kill policemen and throw bricks at trains?
Should we remain silent when violence happens? Is it really right, or is violence just falling into the trap of being the same as the society we are fighting? Are we falling into their ways? SHould we even be using the internet, with its vulnerability to phone tabs, special branch, and M.I5?
This should really be a discussion about whether violence is right in the pursuit of a noble cause, or whether the violent should be stopped no matter what. Maybe by a disciplinary process and not informing though- that does sound pretty heavy.
As an old hippy I remember the "fluffy / spiky" dichotomy and how much trouble and heartache it caused those of an alternative disposition in those heady days.
I suppose the answer is that nobody has the answer, and the right way is usually occult (ie hidden).
Peace
Joe
Joe
criminal abuse by council ss/cover ups by police
02.07.2005 20:15
I at 37 am now crippled for life as a result of this abuse, all supported by medical evidence, witness statements & audio recordings, including PTSD, M.E & internal damage requiring intrusive surgery.
Never investigated by police despite several hundred reports to them, arrested last october for allegedly threatening to do to social services what they had actually done to us, reports to police of what was done to us they responded with 'it's a civil issue'.
have formally accused chf insp michael arrowsmith, sgt lee george, cnst rob polson & others of being corrupt and perverting the course of justice, IPCC do not respond.
mcnamara of bristol city councils legal dept has requested of the courts I be imprisoned for calling him a wanker who employs corrupt. lying bitches & covering up our abuse for over 3 years.
Please get back to me & i'll send you supporting evidence, a telewest engineer has confirmed our telephone line is probably tapped.
I have today texed by mobile tony gosling, who I spoke to last week, I give you the same authorisation to access my email account should anything untoward happen to me.
PW. victoriabell84
thanks
Lee
lee gilliland
e-mail:
leedavidgilliland@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://please could you help me construct one
Let the police do their job
03.07.2005 12:39
It would probably be better to let the police do their "job" themselves, and get on with our own, they have the resources, we mostly do not, after alls said and done, do they help us do our work?
If you want to help the police Zaskar, join them, not us please.
"Troll" (according to Mark Witless)
e-mail:
pixie008@hotmail.com
IM stasi at work again
04.07.2005 00:34
If by some miracle this get through a good (if somewhat politically biased themselves) recourse is "Indymedia watch". Just google on those words (with quote marks) and hit the first link.
This cat links to IM watch pages all over the place, which handily expose these psuedo-alternative jerks for what they are.
If it doesn't, well you have my IP addy now, so do your worst. But I know what you are, and I'm not the only one.
The game's up.
hmmm
bored of trolls
04.07.2005 10:07
bored of trolls
bored of hypocritical trolls
04.07.2005 10:19
"it was promptly over-run by bigots, trolls and Nazis"
Indeed it is ****, which combination of these three are you, you self-confessed troll, you?
I'm beginning to think all 3. How dare you criticise Bindmedia, when you are it's fucking problem. Stop trolling. Get a fucking life. You used to have one, now you are just a troll.
bored bored bored
Bristol Green Party gives to Bristol Indymedia
20.07.2005 21:40
In the interest of supporting freedom of speech and non-commercially biased news coverage, Bristol South Green Party, at their meeting of 20th July 2005, has resolved to make a modest financial donation to Bristol Indymedia.
Cheque is in the post! We hope that this helps get things up-and-running again soon.
Best wishes
Paul
for Bristol South Green Party
Paul Owens
e-mail:
south@bristolgreenparty.org.uk
Homepage:
http://www.bristolgreenparty.org.uk/
Comment
12.12.2008 11:46
Has this implications for what the authorities can get from the siezed servers even if IP logs are not officially kept?
Is there any reason why this was hidden/removed?
Andy
e-mail:
andwone@gmail.com
Homepage:
http://eriepennoutl520.hit.bg