.

Does anyone else think this is a piece of racist scaremonging? Perhaps this nice middle class liberals should join the BNP?

Sorry, I meant scaremongering.

Mark, the answer to your question is obviously no, and its clear that you know nothing about global warming problems at all, so let me explain the banner in simple terms for you. It's pointing out the fact that as the sea rises there will be drastically less land, and therefore people will be forced to move causing over crowding. This is common sense really, and the fact that you thought about race at all makes you the only racist here. Perhaps you should read more Indymedia and less Daily Record.

This is a backup reply to Marrk in case the first didn't work.
The answer to your question is obviously No. If you were at all clued up about environmental problems you would know this was about rising sea levels causing mass evacuation and over-crowding. The only person here "racist scaremongering" is you for bizarrely suggesting it has anything to do with race at all. Stop reading the Daily Record and get an education.

Hello guys,

The sign is not clear in the images, it says: COMING SOON: MILLIONS OF ECOLOGICAL REFUGEES, IN A CITY NEAR YOU!
(this is meant as a wake up to the drivers and shoppers below not an example of middle class racism as we've been accused of I'm afraid)

Hope you' ve all been busy this week, giving our forces complimentary training sessions?
Anyway, in defense of this demonstration - the reason we went up there (after some debate regarding timing after the London attacks) was to try and draw the link between ALL the issues that were supposedly being dealt with by our fuck-wit G8 leaders. Poverty, aid, trade, climate change and now (we all knew it would come up anyway) security.

Poverty- caused by our endless profiteering through the religion of the free-trade agenda.
Aid- a bollox trick of tying in more little elements of our divine free-trade agenda.
Trade - obviously the one shoe fits all approach has bolloxed most of the human race so far, so, yup, you guessed it, we carry on with the free-trade agenda endorsed by these murdering degenerates.
Climate change (chaos) - what you get as a by-product of an ever consuming and industrialising free-trade agenda society.
And the one we all love best, it just keeps popping up - are we all afraid yet George? Security- security is what you lose when the above come into play.
Now, with the approach of the world being a big bag of raw materials, and potential human labour, simply there for the elite to develop and consume, what do we get? More poverty, some furious alterations in our beautiful ecosystem, extreme climate chaos and lots of refugees - whom we then go on to demonize, or send home with an arms deal for there leaders! - But no worries, soon they won't be able to keep the resource rich countries in a permanent state of conflict cos they're gonna be submerged or as dry as a camels bottom with drought, then the real resource war starts.....Who are the racists??? Who are the destroyers and the deceivers...Anyone else feel a little dizzy? Oi! G8, Stop the ride we want to get off.

Fuck economic growth, let love bloom....

Peace
Karen

I have been an environmental activist for over 20 years. You don't have to make it simple for me. I also do not read the Daily Record. The banner in the demo photos reads like a Daily Mail refugee headline trying to scare people into supporting green activism. It's a very bad choice of slogan. Why use words like "millions of refugees coming to a city near you" in a climate of xenophobia drummed up the state and the media? The language is also the exact same as used by the BNP. Your reference to overcrowding alludes to the discredited eco-fascist ideas of overpopulation by Thomas Malthus.
As long as environmentalism remains in the hands of patronising, moralising middle class people it is doomed to be nothing more than a political activist sect. I don't care what Joe thinks, but if there are any working class people reading this don't be sucked into their reactionary ideas.

Karen, nice to see you preach about "fuck economic growth" yet have a yahoo email account.

Let's take a look at some of the companys Yahoo has bought over in the past year, shall we?

Google (7.7 millions shares)
Milpitas Internet telephony company
Dialpad
Overture Websearch
Ludicorp Research and Development
Flickr. photo sharing
Terespondo
Fare Chase (Online travel company)
Inktomi
AltaVista
AllTheWeb
Xfire
Kelkoo

You preach to people about "fucking economic growth", "rich countries", "ever consuming and industrialising free-trade agenda society.
" yet support a company making millions off the backs of people?

How about ditching the frigging yahoo email account before spinning us your stuff.

Maybe people will take you and your comments a little more seriously!

Slightly obsessed with class aren't we Mark?

fair enough on the yahoo thing...
I'm aware I need to change my account, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Attempting to erradicate all yucky companies from use takes a while, and I accept your criticism completely - apologies for seeming like a preacher, or a BNP racist.
Emotion is a difficult thing to convey in a balanced fashion, don't you cry when something hurts? Learning everyday though.
I really must apologise if the banner was understood as fear tactics by anyone - it was meant far more to promote an idea of protectionism towards those of us who live in vulnerable regions.
Can I ask what language you would suggest instead...can we not draw attention to the looming catastrophe that has already and will continue to displace so many.

I do voluntary work with an NGO attempting to represent Tribal Peoples and works to support them in their claims for land rights and acknowledgement of human rights. Many of them view themselves as refugees of the future and they ask :will you take us to your country, to your city, your home when there remains nothing of ours?

I feel this should be brought to peoples attention.

One more question, why the continual class reference?

Peace
Karen

Over the years a number of crypto-fascist groups have tried to influence the green and animal rights movements. I hope your contribution is not another attempt. There are also a number of green intellectuals, posing as radicals with ultra-conservative viewponts, such as James Lovelock and one of the original founders of the Earth First/Deep Ecology movement in the U.S.A. If you are genuinely interested in learning perhaps you could read social ecologist Murray Bookchins' books "Re-enchanting Humanity" and "Social Anarchism versus Lifestyle Anarchism' for a life-affirming critique of their reactionary misanthropic ideas. In this country the founding editor of Green Anarchist magazine calculated that Britain could only support 6 million people living by self-sufficient methods. I don't think he has ever given a clear explanation as to what will happen to the 50 million plus other people, other than suggesting repatriation of immigrants and possibly genocide.

Why the continual class reference?

1. Your banner and demo seemed so typical of one of the middle classes favourite past times - hypocritically preaching from the high moral ground at the ignorant masses.

2. Joe assuming that I must be an uneducated working class oink only capable of reading a tabloid newspaper, because I questioned your use of slogan. This type of thing tends to send me on a rant. If I had seen your reply first my reply may have been more measured.

3. Oh yeah, most of the middle class activists myself and other working class activists have known adhere to the principle, "We are all equal here, but some of us are more equal than others".

4. Climate Change is a product of capitalism. To get rid of capitalism would require a social revolution. I know this is out of fashion, but in a class divided social and economic system like capitalism only those at the bottom of this system, the working class, have the potential to overthrow this system. They have the least to lose and the most to gain. They also make up the vast majority of society.
Before this gets dismissed as an obsession or an incoherent theory, I suggest for reasons of space and time people read Noam Chomskys' writings on Anarchism and the Spanish Revolution, which would be easy to find through a High Street Bookshop, by way of an introduction. Alternatively books by Graham Purchase, which may be harder to find, demonstrate the relationship between social class and green revolution.

PS This may be very liberal and middle class, but the non-profit consumer co-op the Phone Coop provide e-mail accounts, but you have to have a phone account with them. There is also surefish.co.uk who claim to be the ethical internet service provider. I will leave it to you to decide whether their support for Christian Aid is worth supporting or not.

Oops, sorry I appear to have gone on a bit again...

Fair enough Mark, you seem to know your stuff, well done. I do still think though that you are unfortunately obsessed by class, and its a shame that so many people dismiss those who care about politics and the planet as "just middle class with too much time on thier hands" or whatever. It shouldn't matter what "class" you are anyway, everyone has a right to say what they think as long as its measured and well thought over. Anyway class seems to mean nothing more than financial background, and if thats so then I for one am certainly not middle class. I just think perhaps you need to get over your prejudices and be more supportive of those who care about stuff! 20 years experience ought to have given you that... cheers, peace

Hi Mark

Thanks for the suggestions I'll check them out.

I know what your saying about the Deep ecology movement, especially in the context of tribal peoples, it can be a very dangerous ideology.
I read Lovelocks' Gaia Hypothesis when I was very young and felt a real respect for the concept of a vast inter-connected super organism!! People can be so removed psychologically from the ecosystem and I felt this was a healthy idea - maybe I missed something or should read more of his work?

Again I agree with you that it is not good to throw statements and criticisms out into the world without presenting a valid solution to a problem as this can create a climate of fear and then resentment . I really did write the message with the sentiment of solidarity and protectionism- we are all vulnerable to the effects of our current actions. Many people I speak to are not really aware of the human costs, and the fact that we are creating people in need of refuge constantly...many will not even admit that we are in a resource war right now, nevermind what still might come.

The class thing what can I say, of course only the working class can bring about real change, but unfortunately dissent in th ranks is too common and a sense of unity disappears too easily into petty squabbles.
I am from a Fife family who worked the mines and the pit-heads, I am a young woman, working full time so that in the future I can afford to study at the university of my choice, I'm not really sure what my class is. I have a good education, mostly self-taught. I have enough money to feed and clothe myself and buy the books I need. If I worked a little harder I could have lots of shiny things and go on sparkly sun kissed holidays - but I don't.
I value my time my mind and my morals.
Not sure if that makes me working or middle class, a good guy or a bad guy - also not too sure that it matters.

I don't see people as inferior or superior to me, I see my planet and brothers and sisters in a mess and it saddens me - but not to the point of cynicism - one step at a time, changing a little and helping a little day by day is my approach.
Revolutions must take place in your heart and in your own mind before they can manifest outwith.

Sorry if I seem preachy again...

Kind regards
Karen

On reflection most of what I said about the middle class was a juvenile attempt to wind people up. I do however stand by the social theory about class and revolution.

Mark

For some reason this was not printed first.
There are numerous other points you could have made about climate change or trade - too many to mention. The only suggestion I would make is that you come down from your pulpit and engage with drivers and shoppers as equals rather than as the ignorant masses.
Your contiued reference to the looming catasrophe reinded me again of Malthus's overpoulation ideas. His followers have been predicting for the last 150 years that population growth will outstripe resources and that it is coming soon! The real problem is the unfair redistribution of wealth under capitalism.
What NGO do you work for? Your reported claims about what tribal people have said I find very hard to believe. Why would tribal people wanting to maintain their traditional way of life want to move to another country on the other side of the world? I very much doubt even the worst environmental catastrophe would wipe out a whole country or continental region and restrict access to a similar home. Why would tribal people want to move to a city? This is utter nonsense. At most you could only have spoken to, or read about, a relatively small group of people. At best what you report is subjective anecdotal evidence. How can you generalise from this evidence that millions of people want to move to a city in this country? I doubt there are millions of tribal people left in the world. Where is your objective evidence? Where are your sources? Where are your references?

Mark

Hi Mark,

I think you are a very difficult person to communicate with...
I do engage with people, constantly.
While many spent this week assaulting officers some of us engaged in discussions with them over the GATS, TRIPs and all the other nasty agreements we have taken issue with, treating them with some respect and discussing why we were protesting.

We all know direct engagement is best, but on an important day like friday we wanted to do an eye catching demonstration. We were looking down on nobody thank you very much.

The NGOs I volunteer for are Survival International, Bruno Manser Fonds and WDM.
Tribal peoples are becoming refugees everyday, there territory is their country.
My sources are direct from my own interactions and experiences, a group of people called the Penan living in Sarawak are under threat yet again from the extraction industries. There are around 300 of them still living the nomadic life of their choice - the others having been pushed into settlements long ago.
When they ask these questions they are presenting the listener with a challenge. Are you going to do something about this, are you going to support our cause? Or when the time comes that our lands are completely destroyed will you offer us a safe haven with the same quality of life we are privelage to now? No we can't is the answer.

You think no country will be completely ravaged, I hope not... but as I'm sure you know many small island communities are already having to make preparations to deal with the scenario. I'm sure Bangladesh would have something to say to you also.
The amount of land being consumed by desertification is rising quickly too...
Where do these people go, why should we not discuss this?? Or at least make those who don't know the possiblities aware of the potential situations that face us as one race...
Has every possible problem we face as a planet to be hushed until it is right there staring us in the face?
Certainly none of the people I know around the world who are in low lying valleys, and increasingly drought or flood stricken regions mind the reference I made at all.
My own friends have been supportive and wish their situation to be highlighted...
I will not apologise for using real interaction and testimony as my source and justification...you can continue to demand your sources, and spit bricks if I provide no official proof for you to waste time scrutinizing but I am happy to act on the authority of real people with names and feelings who are living the reality now...not official sources (whatever they are) and statistics sweety!

We are 2 very different people with 2 very different attitudes to life, might I risk suggesting you have grown a little bitter and cynical in your 20 years of campaigning?
I think we should end this exchange and agree to disagree, and be thankful that there are multi-faceted approaches to these multi-feceted problems - diversity is a great thing no?

I shall retire from my pulpit now...

Love n hugs
Karen

There are still 150 million tribal peoples living in our world stupid!

My first response when people bring up "class" on a board like this is to look between the lines to see if that person is a wrecker of some kind. Unable to find a hole in the argument, the wrecker seeks to divide and conquer. The easiest ways to wreck someone's message is to call it "middle class" or "vanguardist" or "unoriginal" or a whole bunch of other things. So yeah, please read people's talk of "class" as possible sabotage.

Now race, that can also be an issue. But I think one point made here is that the banner in question may inadvertently touch on some people's xenophobia. some people who see the banner will go "oh gosh! more foreigners here!" and i guess in our campaigning we forget that people aren't in tune with different ethnicities as others.