Someone shot at Stockwell Northern Line station

more

22.07.2005 10:15

an eyewitness told bbc that a man wearing a winter padded jacked boarded a northbound northern line train chased by 2 plain clothes police officer who stopped him and shot him 5 times while he was on the floor.

reuters reports that armed police are surrounding a mosque in east london

-

Armed police surround mosque in East-London

22.07.2005 10:15

On news 24, saying a mosque in EastLondon is surrounded by armed politz....

jim

a suspected suicide bomber

22.07.2005 10:17

a bomber

b

Excessive Force??

22.07.2005 10:22

Asian man chased by 3 armed, plain-clothes police officers who, according to eye witnesses on the BBC website, tackled him to the ground, bundled on top of him THEN unloaded 5 shots into him. Anyone else wonder whether this constitutes excessice force? If they had him on the ground, why then kill him or does this mean that the police can now celebrate having caught one of the bombers and frame him for anything they choose?

Nevis

from, guardian breaking news

22.07.2005 10:41

'There were unconfirmed reports that police believe the man who was shot was one of the attackers involved in yesterday's incidents.

Witness Mark Whitby, speaking to BBC News 24, reported the man was shot five times at close range after he had jumped on a train.

The train was standing in the station with its doors open when the Asian man ran on, pursued by three plain clothes officers. He tripped and was also pushed to the floor and one of the officers shot him five times.'

from Guardian website

I saw a tv report in which a witness said the shots were fired into the mans head

The man was not carrying a bag but had a thick padded jacket on said anothr witness

why have the public not been given descriptions of yesterdays men?

the tv news channels are all going along with assuming that this was a terrorist therefore shooting someone in the head instead of arresting him is perfectly normal

silvia

5 shots?

22.07.2005 10:47

It appears that the police have collectors items, ready made bombs
and forensic evidence, to pursue "the rule of law" and a proper investigation.
& that fortuitously commuters weren't killed or wounded.
that life and business carried on as normal...
The police can not take credit for non-exploding bombs can they?
No thats more a matter of luck, of destiny, of chance, of angelic intervention.

Pity if those who might have been brought to trial were now shot & killed.
More of a pity if innocent nutters in padded jackets were now shot & killed...

ipsiphi in barcelona

Executed maybe...

22.07.2005 11:08

The BBC is just carrying this article:

Man shot dead by police on Tube
A man has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell Tube station, as police hunt four would-be bombers.

Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers" with a handgun.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

The last part is the most interesting:

Passenger Alison Bowditch told BBC News: "The tube pulled into the station and we were sitting there, you know, as you do and then there was just a lot of shouting and the sound of gunfire and then people were saying, 'Get off, get off!'

"Somebody definitely went to the ground and as they went to the ground I heard gun fire and assumed they had been shot."

m.

heard same eyewitness bbc report

22.07.2005 11:19

sounds like murder to me!

rikki

Cold blooded murder

22.07.2005 11:31

The police now judge jury and executioners, he should have been caught and questioned to prevent further attacks. With most people celebrating this mans murder let it be known if there is another bomb this man may have had information to prevent it and any deaths resulting from those bombs are on your hands as much as this man. The police want THREE months to detain and question suspects well it looks like they don’t really want it.

Asf

Armed Bros, drop the boy! Ooer!

22.07.2005 11:40

"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24."

No clear indication of the man being under police control when the shots were fired. I doubt excessive force will be argued since the officers are dealing with a potential suicide bomber posing grave danger to themselves and the public. Like the man said. puffa jacket in summer!???

I'd prefer one dead terrorist and many live civillians if it came to judgement calls. Especially if I were in the carriage!

magoo

most sick

22.07.2005 11:50

from above BBC news article:

"I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

saddened & scared by cops

Chill

22.07.2005 11:55

>> Anyone else wonder whether this constitutes excessice force?

Yes I did. Then I wondered if there were a fear he was carrying a bomb or detonators. Possible, not proven, but just as likely as your Hutton-ing.

>> If they had him on the ground, why then kill him or does this mean that the police can now celebrate having caught one of the bombers and frame him for anything they choose?

Oh, please, they have yet to mop up the blood and already you are swinging in with the conspiracy theories. Wait a couple of hours, at least.

Alec

Why shoot him?

22.07.2005 12:00

As far as the media indicates thus far, the only thing this man was guilty of was wearing a big jacket and running.

Picture the scene : A non-English speaking, dark skinned tourist tries to ask directions from a policeman on London's notoriously confusing underground. The officer turns round, shouts something he doesn’t understand, points an automatic weapon at him. Bloke freaks out, and understandably, legs it. Officers catch him, bundle him to the floor, and ‘pop a cap in his ass’.

So far, nothing to indicate that this wasn’t the case. If they wanted to disable the bloke, isn’t that why they’ve got CS gas? Or do they just use that on demonstrators? I do hope I’m wrong. . .

miffy
mail e-mail: steveulent@yahoo.com

Thing is...

22.07.2005 12:08

...although police killings are worrying, a passenger was reported as saying that he saw the man had been wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

Shooting dead a "suicide" bomber is unfortunately often the only thing to do, unless they have actually adopted a non-threatening position and are surrendering.

Five shots to the head does seem a little over the top, then again if I was that police officer I wouldn't want to take any chances. It's difficult to put oneself in their place...

I guess we should all wait until a bit more is known before deciding whether this killing was in any way justified.

artaud

police / sas execute unidentified man

22.07.2005 12:32

The "Police" were in plain clothes and it seems as though the media just assume that these were police rather than some SAS or secret service men. The fact that this man was bundled to the floor, restrained as the report says and then had five rounds fired into him makes this cold blooded murder. I for one would like to think our police wernt capable of doing that. Ive noticed that he has since grown a bomb belt with wires sticking out as well in the later media reports.

Nigel Jones

wrong man?

22.07.2005 12:34

wouldn't be the first time under-pressure police have shot / framed the wrong man.

it's also not the first time someone jumped the barriers at stockwell tube and then ran when they become aware that they have been spotted by station staff.

edo
mail e-mail: codareef@hotmail.com

Conspiracy theories

22.07.2005 12:37

I think people are letting their imaginations get the better of them. I know if I was a police officer dealing with a suicide bomber, I'd sooner shoot him than put me and the passengers at even the slightest risk of being blown up.

Humpty Dumpty

Plain Clothes?

22.07.2005 12:43

Hang on......they are saying that they are plain clothed officers. So how do we know they are police officers if their uniforms aren't distinguishing them? Also, for an unarmed police force, Britain's police seem to shoot an awful lot of people. Not suggesting conspiracy, I am just saying................

Louise Keane

Louise
mail e-mail: peaccecamp1976@yahoo.co.uk

humpty dumpty

22.07.2005 12:51

wel named, you make words means anything you want, eh?

No evidence he was a suicide bomber (at least, I have not heard any report on a bomb belt, and the eyewitness report from 5 feet from the shooting appears pretty clear in other respects (automatic pistol not a revolver, in the LEFT hand of the shooter)).

SO let's stick with asian man wearing puffer jacket, chased into station, jumps barrier, chased onto train, bundled and shot 5 times. This fits any number of possible explanations from 'heroic' special services execute mad terrorist, to plain clothes cops massively over-react to a fare-dodger.

Whatever the result, we are slipping without much comment into an over-militarisation of policing, where 'shoot-to-kill' is an acceptable response.

anarchoteapot

puffa

22.07.2005 12:52

stockwell can be rife with guys wearing puffa jackets at any time of year. and today ain't particularly warm in london. but I can imagine cops are edgy right now and there's always gonna be some geezer running from them somewhere in south london, bomber or drug fiend or innocent or whatever. anyway, thing to note is, it seems operation kratos is in action:

snip:
...................

Terror squad marksmen get shoot-to-kill orders

Evening Standard
London : Police are preparing specific shoot-to-kill orders to combat suicide bombers.

Marksmen will be told to aim for the head rather than the body.

This is because a shot to the head causes the muscles to go limp and could prevent the bomber detonating his device.

Shooting at the chest could set off an explosives-packed vest.

....
snip

wondering
Homepage: http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/WorldNF.asp?ArticleID=173220

Missy V

22.07.2005 12:57

Is it me, or is it a very worrying day when the police are able to get onto a tube, in the middle of the day, jump onto a man who's running away from them and discharge 5 shots into him?!?Did they have any proof? Could they be 100% sure?? If it was a suicide bomber why did he run and not just blow himself up? It's not good, not good at all.

Maria

Uh oh...

22.07.2005 12:58

This guy had better have been carrying a bomb, for all our sakes.

It's taking the police a fairly long time to make a statement on why this guy had to be shot, and if this guy really was wearing a bomb, then I'd have expected the news reports to tell me all about bomb disposal teams going to the tube stations, as well as the ambulances that they've mentioned...

No prizes for guessing how a bunch of young, angry, and in todays awful climate, somewhat scared, muslim guys are going to react if it turns out that tube faredodgers of asian origin are now subject to summary execution by the state, if they happen to be wearing thick jackets or rucksacks...

Aim Here

Some answers

22.07.2005 13:03

Five shots to the head is now pretty much considered the standard way to stop a suicide bomber. The British Police have received a lot of advice from the Israeli forces who have to deal with the problem of suicide bombers far more than most. Their research showed that even with one or two shots to the head a person can still find the motor skills to operate a simple button however five causes immediate loss of life and renders them harmless.

The Israeli lost many people to the Palestinan trick of the bomber falling on his face and "surrendering" he then waited until a number a police / soldiers approached before detonating. It looks as though the advice the Met have recieved has been acted upon.

Tony Angiano

eye-witness

22.07.2005 13:38

Journalist Chris Martin said he was waiting on the northbound Northern line platform at Stockwell station and a train had pulled in when several men burst on to the platform about 20 yards from him.

"There was a lot of shouting, I thought it was football fans or something," he said.

"There was obviously some sort of altercation going on, and then they came flying on to the platform and these guys just threw this man into the open doors of the train.

"Then I heard shots, I thought it was three but someone else said five.

"It sounded like a silencer gun going off, and then there was blind panic, with people shouting and screaming and just running away.

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/19885043?source=Evening%20Standard&ct=5

a

something posted on the BBC

22.07.2005 13:40

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man had been wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"I've seen these police officers shouting, 'Get down, get down!', and I've seen this guy who appears to have a bomb belt and wires coming out.

"People were panicking and I heard shots being fired."

tom

Well...

22.07.2005 14:00

"The British Police have received a lot of advice from the Israeli forces who have to deal with the problem of suicide bombers far more than most."

Well that makes me feel a whole lot better, the British police taking advice from the Israeli police! (who have repeatedly been criticised for their excessive use of force by various organisations, including Amnesty International).

We can only speculate as we still do not officially know why this man was shot dead, but it does bring up some important questions and I know that, having escaped a police state, I certainly dont want to start living in one now!

Maria

Confidence

22.07.2005 14:15

"Well that makes me feel a whole lot better, the British police taking advice from the Israeli police"

I agree Maria. It's good to know the police have taken their advice from the one nation who have more experience of dealing with suicide bombers than any other nation. Of course the problem here is that we will have plenty of misguided people who have neither operational experience or first hand knowledge of the situation but that will not stop them crying "excessive force"

O shit - I'm too late !

Jonathan

Police Training

22.07.2005 14:24

To start with I think its far to early to speculate what really happened here, so lets wait and see if they really did overreact or not...

However for those that have already made up their minds that excessive force was used, take a look at this training document on dealing with suicide bombers published by the International Association of Chief's of Police:

http://www.theiacp.org/pubinfo/IACP582SuicideBombersPart2.pdf

Quote:

Hence, if lethal force is justified, all shots should be
aimed at the bomber’s head—specifically, at the tip of the
nose when facing the bomber, at the point of the ear canal
from the side, or about one inch below the base of the skull
from behind. An accurately placed head shot will terminate
the bomber before he or she can take action to detonate the ex-
plosive device and will not accidentally set off the device.

---

In some instances an officer or officers may attempt to hold
down a suicide bomber without success. Under such circum-
stances, take the head shot by placing the pistol directly to the
bomber’s head in one of the aforementioned locations.

Sounds like they were following their training to me, however I guess time will tell...

bah!

No Maria...

22.07.2005 14:39

I am sure that you would prefer living in a "free" society with both legs blown off...

I think that we need to get a little perspective here. Whatever one thinks of the Israeli police and military, they do have solid experience of dealing with people trying to blow themselves up and take as many possible with them (whatever the justification or not for such actions). It would be foolish not to learn from their operational experience, if such lessons could save lives here.

CS gas, taser guns and any other restraint or disabling devices are unfortunately not effective enough in these situations. A bomber may be choking on gas or twitching from electric shocks, if their finger is on or near the bomb-trigger then there is a fair chance that they will try and activate it. You may share many of their political views, but would you really want to be standing near them when it goes off?

At any rate, we need to wait for more facts to emerge before jumping to conclusions. If this was an undeserved execution then I will be the first to condemn it. For now, we just don't know.

artaud

Excessive force?

22.07.2005 14:57

All the anti-terrorist training manuals in the world can explain how it's right and proper to shoot suicide bombers who aren't totally under police control, and I can see where you're coming from there, but when the guy in question happens to merely be an overdressed asian dude with no bomb, then holding him down and executing him with five gunshots to the head is clearly a bit excessive, yeah?

Or is this some sort of 'preventative self-defence' like the invasion of Iraq? We shot him in case he was going to bomb us in another fortnight's time?

Besides, the major thing here isn't going to be how the indymedia crowd or our little band of trolls, Israeli apologists and police-fans see it, but how the average muslim guy in the street sees it.

Aim Here

Suicide bombers

22.07.2005 15:12

In case it's been forgotten, two weeks ago 50+ people were killed by suicide bombers. Yesterday, we were luckier.

Given those facts, I wouldn't expect the police (or whoever it was) to take risks. If they had good reason to think he was going to blow up a tube train, they'd have no choice but to use lethal force. Perhaps even having caught him this would have been the only course of action.

What they're saying is that this person was suspected of involvement and was trailed, the intention being to arrest him. But events led to a chase into the underground, where he was stopped and killed. That's what they're saying, I guess we wait and see what else emerges.

They've not yet released CCTV images - perhaps because they had one suspect under surveillance.

The police do need to give a full account of what has happened, because it's dangerous enough in London at the moment without the additional worry of a "shoot to kill" policy that might be operating even in the absence of good reason to suspect a suicide attack.

It's surely not a credible left wing position to demand that the police err on the side of caution when pursuing suicidal zealots.

Chatterton

Chatterton

Militant Pacifism

22.07.2005 15:24

THUS SPAKE ASF ==> With most people celebrating this mans murder let it be known if there is another bomb this man may have had information to prevent it and any deaths resulting from those bombs are on your hands as much as this man.

I prefer to lay ultimate responsibility for bombings with the bombers. You are grasping at straws, and it is not in the least bit dignified. If you believe this shooting was unjustified, by all means say so. Do not swither and fudge the issue by attempting to approportion all blame to one party. What have the police to gain from arbitarily shooting a dusky-skinned foreigner dead? You proceeded to say:

==> The police want THREE months to detain and question suspects well it looks like they don’t really want

That is, of course, concerning. It does, however, suggest there are options other than lethal force to eliminate people with the wrong complexion. Trying to think my way into the calculated and wanton killers you believe the police to be, if there a scintilla of doubt as to whether the suspect represented an imminent danger, I would prefer to apprehend him and then drag him off to the Lubianka.

THUS SPAKE MIFFY ==> Picture the scene : A non-English speaking, dark skinned tourist tries to ask directions from a policeman on London's notoriously confusing underground. The officer turns round, shouts something he doesn’t understand, points an automatic weapon at him. Bloke freaks out, and understandably, legs it. Officers catch him, bundle him to the floor, and ‘pop a cap in his ass’

That is just daft. I can understand someone fleeing when a handgun is stuck in his face by a plain-clothes polis. Not when pursued by two dozen heavily armed and UNIFORMED polis.

Alec

Police executed unarmed man - Confirmed

22.07.2005 15:34

Take a look at this link, sky news confirmed that an examination showed the man didnt have any explosives. This makes the police cold blooded murderers, something which we all dread, state sponsored murder........ where will it end???

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050722/140/fny0z.html

worried and dismayed

Clarification

22.07.2005 15:41

As you are double-posting, I might as well. Did the suspect have a connexion with yesterday?

Alec

Bombing tally

22.07.2005 15:49

==> I agree Maria. It's good to know the police have taken their advice from the one nation who have more experience of dealing with suicide bombers than any other nation

It has likely changed since the situation in Iraq, but prior to 2003 the country to have experienced the highest number of suicide-bombings was... Sri Lanka.

Alec

Correction, Alec

22.07.2005 15:50

Two dozen heavily armed PLAIN CLOTHES police.

Some of the expert punditologists on various news websites have even speculated that these guys might not be cops at all, though how much credence you give to those rentagobs is up to you.

Aim Here

Point taken

22.07.2005 16:00

==> Two dozen heavily armed PLAIN CLOTHES police.

Mea culpa. [sarcasm]Unprovoked attacks by two dozen heavily armed PLAIN CLOTHES police is muggers is a serious problem. I would have run.[/sarcasm]

Alec

worried and dismayed

22.07.2005 16:10

An act of cold-blooded murder would be to kill someone pleading for their life. I don't see how that squares with tailing a potential suicide bomber and killing him when he could possibly have killed innocent people.

I do acknowledge there have been many instances where the police have acted dubiously. But I hardly think we have enough info yet to determine what happened. So far it sounds like the guy was assailled, he resisted arrest so they shot him.

The fatc he had no allegedly no explosives is really neither here nor there, if he is part of a terrorist cell.

magoo

clarify please

22.07.2005 16:50

just what is the actual government approved time allowed to
pass before we are 'allowed' to speculate???

this doesn't include the mainstream as they have been doing this
speculatin' 24/7 for ever....

so when is it ok to start???

or will we all be tarred for asking a few questions

as reason and credulity go up in a puff of smoke
London is the new Jerusalem

as another ancient plan comes to fruition

it's called a POLICE STATE
built on 24-7 projected and amplified fear-mongering

rumour is now viral news and
questioning, is unpatriotic

where will the separation wall be built?

around the Olympic village

around the city of London [too late]

BACK TO SLEEP.
get ready to swipe your privacy away

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

pc

Was this a bomber? Was shot actually to head?

22.07.2005 17:28

The BBC report,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm quotes an eyewitness as saying that the shooting victim was in the train for several seconds before he was shot (see below). If this is so, he certainly had time to trigger a suicide bomb that he was carrying. This would require either pushing a button that he could have got into his hand as he ran into the train or releasing his hold on a button that he had been pushing all along. If the bomb were triggered by a timer, this would not have been the case.

None of the media reports that i have read have stated that the shooting victim was shot in the head. It seems strange that an eyewitness would report, "I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy," if the shots were into the head. Shooting into the head is more dramatic. I would have expected an eyewitness with the clarity to say "one of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand," to specify the shots were into the guy's head/face/ear, if the shots were actually to the head. Each of his quotes to different news organizations that i have found state that the shots were "into him" or "into the guy".

I note that 6 hours after the shooting the London & UK authorities have not announced that a bomb
was found on the body.

Here's the quote:
Londoner Dan Copeland was in the carriage in which the man was shot.

He told BBC News: ...
"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a
person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!'

"People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then leapt up.

"As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs. ..."

doug

shots to the body

22.07.2005 17:31

The eye witness that i heard on BBC radio 4 said that the shots were fired into the body. If they suspected that this man had a bomb strapped on then why were they shooting at the body?

zapasti

The Rashomon Effect

22.07.2005 17:53

I am still prepared to believe this was a Gibraltar-style execution. If it fails to turn out that the man was entirely innocent (a point many posters are skating around), my sympathy for him will be somewhat limited.

As for contradictory eye-witness reports, consider the Rashomon Effect.

Alec

THe Real Face of Terror is not MUSLIM

22.07.2005 18:19

1. A couple of quick points:

If the person shot were Jewish (of Middle East Descent), the whole world would go absolutely crazy, blaming the government for anti-semitism, religious bigotry, nazism etc...Schools would have whole new Holocaust curriculum and our "Lapdog" PM would have to fly immediately to Jerusualm to assure the Zionists he was behind them 100 percent against the Palestinians. BUT NOOOOO...He is an "Asian" "Muslim" (Pakistani?), so his blood is cheaper then Brittish or jewish blood...No one cares any longer that the police murdered this "darky" and the racists Britts and their Zionist co-colaborators just move on with their business."

2. Why has no one brought up the Israeli connection behind the bombings. Always look to who benefits most from these "so-called" terrorist acts. Israel is under great pressure from Europe to withdraw from the land they mecislessly stole in their war of aggression against the defenseless Palestinians in 1967. After 38 years of non-stop systematic butchering, murdering, blood-letting, robbing, stealing, pogromin, and ultimately almost completely ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from the face of the Earth, the Zionists game is always up. Just as they are about to give up their dream of middle-east domination, and thanks to Arab League/EU pressure and succesful resistance operations by the Palesitnians BOOOM, Terror hits Europe. Now everytime you turn on the Tube, some Jewish person is telling you "now you understand how the Israelis feel"...."now you know that you can't negotiate with terror"....Seems a little coincidental, doesn't it. ...Rubbish. If the Brittish people want to really stop terror in their midst, they need to stop harrassing peaceful Muslims in their country and start thinking long and hard about finding, persecuting and expelling the true insitgators of this terror....They happen to have an Embassy right in London, so it's not like MI5 doesn't know where to look!

Norman

operation Kratos PDF

22.07.2005 18:28

plans for the London Police state

http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/policies/stop_and_search_s44_tact_2000_sop.pdf

paul c

conspiracy corner

22.07.2005 19:00

Olympian gods :

The brothers KRATOS and ZELOS and the sisters NIKE and BIA were the personifications of Strength and Rivalry, Victory and Force. These four winged gods stood beside the throne of Zeus.

KratoV - Bia Bih - ZhloV = Strength Force / Violence Emulation / Rivalry

http://www.theoi.com/Ouranos/Kratos.html

modern interpretation - Marvel comics

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/kratosbia.htm

paul c

10 hours on...

22.07.2005 19:32

"I am still prepared to believe this was a Gibraltar-style execution. If it fails to turn out that the man was entirely innocent (a point many posters are skating around), my sympathy for him will be somewhat limited. "

Moving the goalposts now are we alec? When he was a suspected suicide bomber you were quick to point out standard anti-suicide bomber drill and how that was necessary to save lives. Now that it's becoming clear that he wasn't armed (and the police are still skirting round that, big-style) you'll be happy he's dead if he merely has some supposed terrorist links.

What happens if this guy turns out to be merely a teenage tearaway? What if some neighbourhood busybody grassed him up on the hotline as a suspected terrorist because of some pathetic local grudge, and he ran when challenged by the cops because he'd been doing a bit of faredodging or shoplifting (that might explain the puffa jacket)?
Will you have any sympathy then, or will the fact that he was given a death-squad execution in public by panicked cops still be all his fault?

You'll notice that this guy has still not been named, despite having been under police surveillance since before the shooting, and despite having been in the morgue for 10 hours. Hasn't his next of kin been notified yet? Could it be the cops are maybe keeping his identity secret to buy time for some damage limitation exercises before announcing how badly they've fucked up...

Aim Here

Summary Execution Legislation - Missed It?

22.07.2005 20:31

Must have missed Charles Clark's announcement of legislation to allow summary execution of people wearing thick coats in mild weather. When did it go for second reading? Must have been interesting discussion in committee.

If the fellow was a terrorist (and we don't know from where we are sitting yet - he might or might not have been), would it not have been better to bag him for questioning, instead of spreading his brains over the inside of a train carriage? Or is this how we get intelligence to protect our cities these days?

The Gadfly

Circumlocution

22.07.2005 21:09

Did I say "execution"? That was silly.

==> Moving the goalposts now are we alec?

Yes, I am, a bit. However, I am still showing more continuity than some who immediately swung into action to condem whichever agency was involved. I cannot find the link (in one of the other threads) in which some of the saner critics now seem to be conceeding that he was involved, but it was unncessary to shoot him. It is easy to appraise such a situation with such clarity of hindsight, but it is an documented psychological effect that in highly charged emotional situations, those involved become hyper-sensitive to certain details to the exclusion of all others.

At least you are better than Norman.

Alec

Circumlocution

22.07.2005 21:11

Did I say "execution"? That was silly.

==> Moving the goalposts now are we alec?

Yes, I am, a bit. However, I am still showing more continuity than some who immediately swung into action to condem whichever agency was involved. I cannot find the link (in one of the other threads) in which some of the saner critics now seem to be conceeding that he was involved, but it was unncessary to shoot him. It is easy to appraise such a situation with such clarity of hindsight, but it is an documented psychological effect that in highly charged emotional situations, those involved become hyper-sensitive to certain details to the exclusion of all others.

Other arrests have been made, without fatal shootings. I heard a snippet of a Tube driver being pounced upon by armed police, but *not* shot.

At least you are better than Norman.

Chastened Alec

"we can not minimize the importance of what occured today"

22.07.2005 21:17

nor allow it to alter our way of life.

& there are many young Londoners who despite such excellent civic spirit and community efforts are "emotionalised" by the idea of extra-judiciary killing of suspects.
What they were against before
they are still against.

& our duty to uphold their right to those emotions and display of them is
very very important.

ipsiphi in barcelona

Emotional disattachment

22.07.2005 22:56

==> You'll notice that this guy has still not been named, despite having been under police surveillance since before the shooting, and despite having been in the morgue for 10 hours. Hasn't his next of kin been notified yet? Could it be the cops are maybe keeping his identity secret to buy time for some damage limitation exercises before announcing how badly they've fucked up...

A more plausible explanation is that they do not want to give away details of their intelligence; especially if they did not want to alert co-conspirators. More plausible, certainly, than people being denounced Franco-style. More plausible than an entire company of paramilitaries stumbling upon a neighbourhood gadje. At least, I hope so.

It is pointless to abuse... no, too strong a word... criticize me because I cannot rouse sympathy for one dead terrorist. There are scores of thousands of innocents who die every day, I am well aware of this. I am appalled. However, if I were to become *distraught* at every individual death I would only have a psychotic episode. Better to develop a thousand yard stare.

Alec

"one dead terrorist"

23.07.2005 08:29

Alec, the Met haven't said this guy was a terrorist, or given any evidence of any terrorist links yet. All they've said is that he was being watched 'as part of an anti-terrorist investigation'. What happened to the presumption of innocence, or is being gunned down by the police considered ipso-facto evidence of guilt in Alec-world? If the Met had anything on this guy, they'd be yelling it from the rooftops by now, if only to give their friendly apologists in places like this a sporting chance.

The closest parallel I can think of for this is the Steven Waldorf shooting in 1981, when some innocent kid was gunned down in cold blood by some trigger-happy cop (and mercifully survived!) because he happened to be leaving the flat of some murderer's girlfriend, although then, the Met were a lot less skilled at PR and the mass media actually bothered to ask some difficult questions occasionally.

Instead, they've been sitting on the story for a whole day so far, waiting for it to drop off the front pages and for people to forget about it, while some real Al-Qaeda fuckers are helpfully grabbing headlines and massacring innocent people in some other part of the world.
How long should we wait for the Met to dribble out little bits of information before we're allowed to concede that the cops fucked up? A day? A week? A year? Or just until everyone forgets about this guy, and the results of the Police Whitewash Inquiry only manages to get 2 column inches on page 27 of the Guardian? After all, he was only a young, single, male muslim, so he doesn't matter, much. The cops would never summarily execute the likes of you and me, Alec, would they?

Aim Here

Well..

23.07.2005 08:33

"A more plausible explanation is that they do not want to give away details of their intelligence; especially if they did not want to alert co-conspirators. More plausible, certainly, than people being denounced Franco-style. More plausible than an entire company of paramilitaries stumbling upon a neighbourhood gadje. At least, I hope so. "

Seems like a fair enough point. Cue accusations of being a racist fascist, stool pigeon of the state, or (of course) Alex/Magoo/Boab in disguise.

Paranoid Pete

Too WIlling To Point The Finger of Blame

23.07.2005 11:43

"or is being gunned down by the police considered ipso-facto evidence of guilt in Alec-world"

As opposed to police shooting someone, which some of our friends consider ipso-facto evidence that they're a bunch of gun-totting homicidal maniacs?

Pot, meet kettle.....

Big Bad Boab

As time goes by, your excuses grow more feeble

23.07.2005 13:36

Homicidal maniacs? I didn't use the phrase but hey, if you saw three guys chase down an unarmed man and two guys held the guy down and a third pumped him full of bullets, on the face of it, you'd be inclined to describe these guys as homicidal maniacs.

Now I well understand that it's right and proper to shoot suicide bombers for everyone's protection, but I figure if someone does gun someone down in the street they ought to have at least some sort of justification for it. So far, and this is well over a day later, the police have yet to *claim* that this guy was armed, that this guy was a terrorist, or even that this guy had terrorist links, let alone provide any evidence. Doesn't THAT strike any of you apologists and fascists and cops as odd? The only thing they've claimed is that he came out of a house that the cops were watching. Nobody even knows why the cops were watching that house. Nobody even knows the victim's name. And it's not as if the cops aren't the ones in control of all the information here. They could clear their name in a jiffy, if their names were clearable.

How long are we supposed to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, just purely because they're cops? If I cut someone's throat in the street, would I be allowed to sit and twiddle my thumbs for a day or two before thinking up a good justification for it, or would I be arrested and charged immediately?

Aim Here

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