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Death of a Brazilian or how to 'Fix the Facts' to fit the crime

William Bowles | 31.07.2005 18:08

This assumes that the rest of the Government's story is true. They still haven't proven who the men in the station were, who shot this man, and whether or not he actually worked for London Police Services. Until this is proven, we must not discount that this man may have been shot by operatives who wished to silence him for something he may have witnessed them doing. If they were 'tailing him', why were the men in question looking around the station and on the train for him?

Death of a Brazilian or how to massage the facts to fit the crime
William Bowles, I'n'I

July 30, 2005

Day 9 of Open Season on those who are “darker than blue”


“There is nothing patriotic about our pretending that you can love your country but despise your government.” – President Bill Clinton

Blair the AppeaserAs more information has come to light on the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the unfortunate Brazilian, it is abundantly clear that from the moment he stepped out of his apartment building in Tulse Hill to go to his job as an electrician, Menazes was a dead man.

In all likelihood, the real scenario is as follows:

The block of flats is under surveillance by a team of police no doubt based on ‘information received’.

Menazes leave the building, walks to the bus stop and catches the bus to Stockwell tube station, followed by the police surveillance team, where he enters the station and contrary to the police reports, he doesn’t vault the turnstyle but uses his ticket to go through the turnstyle.

At this point a plainclothes team take over and follows Menazes into the tube station. Menazes makes his way to the Northern line platform where a train is in the station with its doors open.

Menazes runs for the train; the police close in; Menazes stumbles as he enters the carriage. The police board the train, jump on the unfortunate Brazilian and administer the coup de grace, seven shots to the head and one in the shoulder.

No doubt this is followed by a triumphant message to their bosses, ‘We got ‘im chief!’ Another ‘terrorist’ bites the dust.

From this point on, it’s downhill for the men in (plainclothes) blue, for on identification, they realise that their ‘Islamic terrorist’ is in fact a Brazilian. Whoops! Big cock-up. What to do?

In the meantime, chief London cop, Blair of the Yard in his haste to claim a success (no doubt one more notch on his way to collecting his knighthood for ‘services rendered to the state’) has already announced that Menazes is definitely “directly connected to the terrorist network”.

The problem now is how to best cover-up the cock-up? From this point on, the entire enterprise goes completely pear-shaped.

In order to justify the murder of Menazes it is necessary to ‘massage’ the facts to fit the crime.

Step 1: Put it about that he was wearing a ‘bulky’ jacket on a warm summer’s day whereas in fact, he was wearing a lightweight jeans jacket. Very suspicious, for underneath the bulky jacket could be hidden a bomb. In addition they imply that his behaviour was ‘suspicious’.

Step 2: Instead of walking quite normally through the station turnstyle, the police allege that he ran into the station and vaulted the turnstyle. The police of course, following the scenario laid down by ‘Operation Kratos’ now have a ‘licence to kill’.

Step 3: At this point the ‘hit squad’ take over, who follow him down to the station platform. The events from here on until the point at which he enters the train and is murdered, are somewhat conjectural but in all likelihood, once on the platform Menazes is either warned to stop (police version) and is chased by the hit squad, with guns drawn. Menaizes, understandably, seeing that he is being chased by three unidentified men with guns, runs for it. Or, seeing the train in the station, he runs for it before the doors close, onto the train where he stumbles as he boards followed by the hit squad.

Step 4: Either way, he is chased into the train by the three men who, according to Whitby, one of the witnesses, “jump on top of him” and fire several bullets into him at point blank range (Whitby said five, another witness said three but in fact, according to the police it was eight). Either way, Menazes was dead.

No doubt the hit squad’s first act is to communicate to their superiors that the suspect has been ‘neutralised’. At this point, due to his dark skin it is still assumed that Menazes is an ‘Asian’. Had he in fact, been an Asian, no doubt the story concocted by the authorities would have been somewhat different and given the hysterical atmosphere created around the events of July 7 and the preceding day, the ‘Asian man’s’ unfortunate demise would have been ‘regrettable’ but understandable. And anyway, who cares about the odd Asian biting the dust? The sympathies would have been with the police who are, in any case “under severe strain”.

Meanwhile, Blair of the Yard has already ‘jumped the gun’ so-to-speak and announced to the world that the victim was “definitely directly connected to the terror network”. This was the first of many errors committed by the state that no doubt forced the invention of the story that was subsequently released to the press.

So time for some ‘reverse engineering’, hence we see the ‘bulky coat’, the ‘vaulting of the turnstyle’, his ‘suspicious behaviour’, necessitating the use of lethal force to ‘protect the lives of the innocent’.

Finally, the ‘shoot-to-kill’ policy of Operation Kratos is revealed in order to take the heat off the cops’ cock-up. Blair and co are in theory, unassailable being able to retreat behind the façade of ‘policy’. The propaganda campaign kicks in big time.

The first of many disinformation pieces appear, namely that he might have been an ‘illegal alien’, thus justifying him running from the police in an attempt to justify the murder. The Home Office initially issues a rigorous denial and condemns press speculation on Menazes status in no uncertain terms, but of course in line with the tactic of putting out as much ‘chaff’ as possible, the thought is planted in the minds of the public regardless of official utterances to the contrary.

Menazes’ status goes through a series of revisions over the following week, with yet another story surfacing that the stamp in his passport is “forged”. The Home Office refuses to comment. Overall though, the impression is left in the public’s mind that there was something ‘dodgy’ about Menazes. It’s all grist for the propaganda mill. The mainstream press of course, rush to the defence of the police’s actions in total lock-step with official policy on state-sanctioned murder.

The witnesses to the assassination disappear completely. There are no followup interviews by our intrepid press. A brief press release is issued by the RMT union that the driver of the train, who understandably fled along with everyone else when the shots rang out, is chased by the police and has a gun held to his head before being released (was he by any chance, ‘darker than blue’ I wonder?). I phoned up the RMT and was told that the driver was in fact a member of ASLEF, the other transport workers’ union. The only press report on this that I could find was in the Morning Star. I attempted to talk to the ASLEF press office but to no avail and as far as I know, ASLEF has not commented on the event, there is no mention on the ASLEF Website of the incident. No matter, it’s merely another ‘sidebar’ in the ‘war on terror’.

As the days pass, it finally emerges that the story released by the police on the events leading up to Menazes’ death is somewhat off the mark but by now, the government’s propaganda defensive is in full swing and the actual facts disappear under a swathe of justifications issued by the police and the government, chiefly of course the ‘shoot to kill’ policy, that it is necessary to shoot first and perhaps ask questions later, but in any case, the state has no choice but to institute the policy given the nature of the threat, suicide bombers, who have to be taken out before setting off their bombs.

However, I would like to offer the following observations on the government’s tactics that point I think to some serious flaws in the government’s calculations that first and foremost hinge around the disastrous debacle of the Menazes murder.

In the first instance, it is clear that as the situation goes from bad to worse in Iraq, it has revealed the strategic disaster that is the ‘war on terror’ from which the USUK alliance is unlikely to recover. All attempts to bring the other leading capitalist states onboard have failed miserably, so with every passing day, the ‘coalition of the killing’ finds itself ever more isolated and most dangerous of all, desperate. Those who scorn the idea that 7/7 was in actuality instigated by the security services of the ‘Axis of Terror’, the US, UK and Israel, need to bear this reality in mind, never mind alleged forged photos, airbrushed images and the like.

And if we need proof of this we need only note the change of tack announced this week; goodbye to ‘the war on terror’, hello to ‘the war on violent extremism’. Extremism of course is a much wider and even vaguer definition than ‘terror’, for clearly this change in tactics is designed to prepare us for the next stage in the creation of a full-blown police state simply because it is inevitable that resistance to Blair’s policies will increase as the implications of the failed invasion sink in.

The announcement of new and even more repressive state powers this week, are a clear indication of the increasing desperation of the ruling elite’s situation, justified by the ‘convenient’ events of July 7 (and what I still consider as the accident of the botched and obviously amateur copycat attempts on July 21).

Police last night told Tony Blair that they need sweeping new powers to counter the terrorist threat, including the right to detain a suspect for up to three months without charge instead of the current 14 days.

Senior officers also want powers to attack and close down websites, and a new criminal offence of using the internet to prepare acts of terrorism, [and] to “suppress inappropriate internet usage”.

They also want to make it a criminal offence for suspects to refuse to cooperate in giving the police full access to computer files by refusing to disclose their encryption keys.

Now what the hell is “inappropriate internet usage”? Once the state embarks on a course of repression in order to enforce policy on an unwilling population, it is on a one-way street to fascism for there can be no backing down nor turning back. The only course of action is even more repression or the overthrow of what is effectively becoming a dictatorship.

The ‘middle ground’, represented by a social democratic model of rule through some kind of consent and compromise is no more, abandoned as with much of the rest of the inconvenient baggage of social democracy such as being answerable to the public.

And, as the situation gets ever more polarized by the actions of the government, it is inevitable that ‘terror’ morphs into ‘extremism’, thus widening the net to encompass an increasing percentage of society that opposes Blair’s ‘ordinary’ fascism. Before you know it, independent media sources such this will be branded as ‘extremist’ simply because we oppose the government’s policies.

Driving the entire enterprise is the state’s demonisation of Islam which has become ever more strident and extreme

That is why I don’t even agree actually … that in the end they just want us out of Arab countries, they don’t, it is far more fundamental than that, they want a war between Islam and other religions, that is what they want, that is why they keep referring to this as the crusader Zionist alliance and all this sort of rubbish. That is what they want, they want a situation in which we end up being divided – Tony Blair

The we being of course, the white, Anglo-Saxon alliance of the US and the UK. Interestingly, the only time the term “crusader Zionist alliance” has been used was allegedly by Osama bin Laden in October 2004 in a taped speech that was identified with “moderate confidence” as bin Laden by the CIA, so it’s not even certain that Osama actually used the phrase. Moreover, the speech was released on one of the will ‘o the wisp websites, much favoured by the alleged al-Qu’eda terror network.

And we are not going to deal with this problem, with the roots as deep as they are, until we confront these people at every single level. And not just their methods, but their ideas. [my emph. WB] – Tony Blair

But note now the use of the phrase “Not just the methods but the ideas” heralding the nature of the relationship between the US and UK as the US too alter their propaganda campaign to mesh with the reality of the failed military option. For failing to win the ‘war on terror’, there is only one option left, wage war on their domestic populations as the opposition to failed policies increases.

The speech from which these quotes are taken reveals an ever more unhinged Blair, with sections of the speech resembling nothing so much as a ‘stream of ranting consciousness’, replete with all the by now familar buzzwords. But it is the way reality is twisted that is most disturbing such as this example

Israel shouldn’t exist, yes American foreign policy is evil, yes what happened in Iraq or Afghanistan was designed to suppress Islam, if people accept those as ideas it is far less of a step into the extremism of terrorism.

In other words, if you oppose USUK policy in Iraq, Afghanistan or their support for the policies of the Israeli government then it’s a short step to accepting “the extremism of terrorism”. And there is the inference that the invasion was designed to “suppress Islam”, a first for Blair.

Extremism and terrorism are now completely interchangeable terms. It is obvious that those of us who oppose the government’s policies are being set up for the next phase; the inexorable logic of the slide into fascism.

William Bowles
- Homepage: http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-0354.html

Comments

Hide the following 20 comments

de menezes

31.07.2005 21:38

i was under the impression that the name of the brasilian was Jean Charles de MenEzes,
not MenAzes. makes me kind of doubt the wider premises of the article if the author can't even get the name of the victim right. all these allusions, but what quality of research?
there may be valid concerns in here, please can you do us the honour of treating such bloody serious issues with the respect they deserve?
hmm
cheers

wondering


Please be patient...

31.07.2005 23:52

It takes time
to fix the facts
and frame Iran
for the attacks.

T. Bliar


Author did get it right

01.08.2005 00:06

"i was under the impression that the name of the brasilian was Jean Charles de MenEzes,
not MenAzes. makes me kind of doubt the wider premises of the article if the author can't even get the name of the victim right"

It was the reposter who messed up......

 http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-0354.html

BRB


Author got just about everything else wrong

01.08.2005 03:11

This piece neither reports facts nor brings any previously unknown material to light. Further, its "analysis" presupposes its conclusions.

"it is abundantly clear that from the moment he stepped out of his apartment building in Tulse Hill to go to his job as an electrician, Menazes was a dead man."

Your mission is to provide evidence for that rather speculative assertion.

"In all likelihood, the real scenario is as follows:"

Ah, so you don't know, you're just going to guess. Once upon a time, there was a boy wizard called Harry...

{Speculation on the course of events that led to the shooting snipped}

"From this point on, it’s downhill for the men in (plainclothes) blue, for on identification, they realise that their ‘Islamic terrorist’ is in fact a Brazilian. Whoops!"

The problem wasn't that he was a Brazilian. The problem was that he wasn't a suicide bomber. You do seem rather more amused by the fact that the police have screwed up than saddened that an innocent man has been killed. It'd be easy to get the impression you're just scoring political points rather than genuinely concerned about anyone's safety. Whoops!

"In the meantime, chief London cop, Blair of the Yard in his haste to claim a success (no doubt one more notch on his way to collecting his knighthood for ‘services rendered to the state’)"

Commissioners of the Met receive a knighthood on appointment. That's why he's referred to as "Sir Ian Blair" in all those news reports you didn't read very carefully when you were doing your "research".

"has already announced that Menazes is definitely “directly connected to the terrorist network”.

In fact, they announced that the shooting was directly connected to the inquiry into the previous day's bombings. Which it was, and which didn't imply (unless you would like it to) that the man was a terrorist.

BBC News, 22 July
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

The "cover up" story you propose has been demolished elsewhere and you don't have anything new to add to it.

"No doubt the hit squad’s first act is to communicate to their superiors that the suspect has been ‘neutralised’."

No, that's just the language that the callous racist murderous police in your head use.

"At this point, due to his dark skin it is still assumed that Menazes is an ‘Asian’."

The only people to describe him as Asian were apparently the eye witnesses. I suppose they're "institutionally racist."

"And anyway, who cares about the odd Asian biting the dust?"

Yes, the police are taking out "Asians" practically every day, aren't they? No-one would have made the slightest fuss if the dead man had been an innocent Asian, right?

"Finally, the ‘shoot-to-kill’ policy of Operation Kratos is revealed in order to take the heat off the cops’ cock-up."

The policy was "finally" revealed well before the shooting. This report is from 15 July but I'm sure you could find earlier references if you bothered to actually do some research.

Scotsman, 15 July
 http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1398572005

I think the cock-up was that the man wasn't a bomber, not that the police aren't allowed to shoot suspected bombers. Big difference.

"The first of many disinformation pieces appear, namely that he might have been an ‘illegal alien’, thus justifying him running from the police in an attempt to justify the murder. The Home Office initially issues a rigorous denial and condemns press speculation on Menazes status in no uncertain terms, but of course in line with the tactic of putting out as much ‘chaff’ as possible, the thought is planted in the minds of the public regardless of official utterances to the contrary.

"Menazes’ status goes through a series of revisions over the following week, with yet another story surfacing that the stamp in his passport is “forged”. The Home Office refuses to comment."

Well the Home Office have been quite clear that De Menezes had overstayed his visa. So unless they're lying, this isn't disinformation. His family haven't denied it. It doesn't justify shooting him, but if he ran, it might explain why. It might not, of course.

BBC News, 28 July
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4725659.stm

And as I'm sure you remember as you've researched this so thoroughly, Nick Hardwick, the chairman of the IPCC, publicly told the Home Office and police to "shut up" to avoid prejudicing his enquiry.

"The mainstream press of course, rush to the defence of the police’s actions in total lock-step with official policy on state-sanctioned murder."

It probably hasn't occurred to you that some people might think the policy necessary.

Also, you conveniently ignore any dissenting comment in the mainstream press. There are many examples, of which this is one:

"Black men can't run", Guardian, 29 July
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1538380,00.html

"The witnesses to the assassination disappear completely."

Yes, they didn't return to their families that night, and their plaintive cries for help have been surpressed by the State.

"There are no followup interviews by our intrepid press."

And the media totally ignored the De Menezes family, didn't cover his funeral or the vigil at Westminster Cathedral led by the head of England's Catholics. It was practically a news blackout. De who?

"A brief press release is issued by the RMT union that the driver of the train, who understandably fled along with everyone else when the shots rang out, is chased by the police and has a gun held to his head before being released (was he by any chance, ‘darker than blue’ I wonder?)"

I imagine even the police who shot De Menezes were smart enough to realise that train drivers don't usually bomb their own trains. If you have any information about the driver's ethnicity, I'm sure we'd like to hear it as it's bound to be hyper-relevant.

"I attempted to talk to the ASLEF press office but to no avail"

Did your mobile run out of credit or did you get transferred to the "who the feck are you?" department? Pilger would have got in there.

(Sarcastically) "in any case, the state has no choice but to institute the policy given the nature of the threat, suicide bombers, who have to be taken out before setting off their bombs."

Any suggestions on how you'd deal with someone who you genuinely thought to be a suicide bomber are welcomed at  armchair_general@met.police.uk. Personally, I'd find it quite hard to "take out" a suicide bomber after they'd set off their bomb. A hose might do the job.

"All attempts to bring the other leading capitalist states onboard have failed miserably, so with every passing day, the ‘coalition of the killing’ finds itself ever more isolated and most dangerous of all, desperate."

The US doesn't give a toss about being "isolated". It's just cheaper to use other countries armies' to do its dirty work.

"Those who scorn the idea that 7/7 was in actuality instigated by the security services of the ‘Axis of Terror’, the US, UK and Israel, need to bear this reality in mind, never mind alleged forged photos, airbrushed images and the like."

I think those that persist in asserting that 7/7 was instigated by the security services could do us all the courtesy of coming up with a single piece of evidence to back their claims. "Alleged" is a bit of a weasel word, don't you think?

"They also want to make it a criminal offence for suspects to refuse to cooperate in giving the police full access to computer files by refusing to disclose their encryption keys."

This is already possible under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000:

 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/crimreduc/regulation/part3/part3.html

"Now what the hell is “inappropriate internet usage”?"

Your job as a writer is to tell us what it is and argue why you think it is bad. I imagine it's got something to do with instigating or committing terrorism, rather than writing lame articles packed with vague speculation. Don't worry, you're safe - for now.

"Once the state embarks on a course of repression in order to enforce policy on an unwilling population, it is on a one-way street to fascism for there can be no backing down nor turning back."

Whooooosh! There goes logical fallacy number 17, the slippery slope. If you were a little more au fait with British political culture, you'd know that we have elections in this country every few years and a healthy public discourse of which this is a stellar part.

"The only course of action is even more repression or the overthrow of what is effectively becoming a dictatorship."

Obviously. Up the revolution! We need you to lead us. Effectively.

"The ‘middle ground’, represented by a social democratic model of rule through some kind of consent and compromise is no more, abandoned as with much of the rest of the inconvenient baggage of social democracy such as being answerable to the public."

I think that must be the elections again, that free speech stuff, etc.

"Before you know it, independent media sources such this will be branded as ‘extremist’ simply because we oppose the government’s policies."

You might be pleasantly surprised to discover that the government have got bigger fish to fry right now. It's more likely that they will be branded as "bullshit" simply because they're full of unsubstantiated bullshit.

"Driving the entire enterprise is the state’s demonisation of Islam which has become ever more strident and extreme"

Yes, being invited to special briefings at Downing Street is social death around here. I think you'll find that the government has bent over backwards to distinguish between what they'd see as "good/true Muslims" from "bad/untrue Muslims" and to give a platform to Muslim community leaders and groups.

{Tony Blair quote in which he appears to say "All Muslims are bastards" snipped}

I think you'll find he was referring to Islamist terrorists, not Muslims in general. Ah, the power of context - so vital, so easy to conveniently forget.

"And not just their methods, but their ideas. [my emph. WB] – Tony Blair"

He means the methods and ideas of Islamist terrorism, not Islam. Do you know the difference? Do you find Islamists' ideas attractive?

"For failing to win the ‘war on terror’, there is only one option left, wage war on their domestic populations as the opposition to failed policies increases."

Yes, like putting huge amounts of money into faith schools and knighting the sec-gen of the Muslim Council of Britain.

"The speech from which these quotes are taken reveals an ever more unhinged Blair, with sections of the speech resembling nothing so much as a ‘stream of ranting consciousness’, replete with all the by now familar buzzwords."

Blair was answering reporters' questions at a news conference, not giving a speech. If it sounds extemporised to you, it's because it was. I'm sure you've got the original source for this, not just cut-and-pasted some out-of-context chunks from someone else's blog.

We all know what an atrocious "ordinary bloke" actor Blair is. "You know - and I make no apology for this - we all think terrorism's bad, right? Just last night, Cherie and I were sitting in the garden having a beer, and I asked her, 'Does it ever bother you when an Asian guy with a rucksack sits next to you on the train?' And she looked up at me, cracked a broad grin and said, 'Oh Tony, you know I haven't taken the train since I got caught fare dodging on the way to work as a judge.' [Tame Lobby correspondents crease up laughing]"

"Extremism and terrorism are now completely interchangeable terms."

No doubt other semantic atrocities will be visited upon innocent Britons in the dark years ahead.

"It is obvious..."

Your argument doesn't demonstrate it.

"...that those of us who oppose the government’s policies are being set up for the next phase; the inexorable logic of the slide into fascism."

This is real hot stuff. Tony Blair must be shitting himself purple.

Next week: Is the Pope Catholic?

Zorro


William used to be a parrot, but he's alright now...

01.08.2005 07:38

""It'd be easy to get the impression you're just scoring political points [...]"

That sums it up pretty much 100% for me. This is just a crank propagandist reverse engineering charges against his hate figures. There are plenty of valid reasons to attack the Blair & Bush governments. But making shit up just makes you look like a twat, bigot, idiot and us too by association.

Journalists aren't barristers or forensic scientists. Their job is to sell advertising space and keep threir boss in a job. Ask any journalist about how strories feed into stories feed into stories (single sourced rehashing etc.). How subs editors'll tinker to make things sound a little more exciting.

How can you cite "specifics" from the media that have no indepedent corroboration???

"Any suggestions on how you'd deal with someone who you genuinely thought to be a suicide bomber are welcomed at  armchair_general@met.police.uk."

"Dear Saint John Stephens [sic], have you considered Hegelian dialect as an alternative to shooting?"


" It is obvious that those of us who oppose the government’s policies are being set up for the next phase; the inexorable logic of the slide into fascism."

Ah okay, and the millions who work in the Civil Service (proper), the MoD, the Police and the courts are all in on this big facist coup? LMFAO!!! There'd be civil war if they even farted too loudly in that direction. Contrary to your paranoid delusions, the "Establishment" isn't overwhelmed by dehumanised stereotypes who "think" that Hitler was too soft and sentimental.

We have an electoral system that is *woefully* corrupt and antiquated. That doesn't constitute a facist state. Do you really see brownshirts on the street stoning the "ethnically unclean"? Do we have dissidents disappearing in the night for the crime of writing a pamphlet? Etc, etc, etc.

You'll be describing 7/7 as burning the Reichstag next... if you haven't already... I must admit I do scroll past a lot of your ramblings now.

As I pointed out before, your method of observation seems to be inspired by the outrage at how Bush rode off the back of 9/11 and conveniently ignores the fact you are dealing with the UK. 7/7 was no mass culture shock or trauma. Blair is more likely to drown in this than ride the crest of any wave of public obedience.

There are fights over new anti-terrorist legislation happening in parliament. There is no PATRIOT Act scenario playing out here.

You could get a column in the Daily Mail if he just changed his targets a few degrees.

magoo


It has all been said sooo long ago.

01.08.2005 10:32

Do you watch at a distance from the side you have chosen?
Whose answers serve you best? Who'll save you from confusion?
Who will leave you an exit and a comfortable cover?
Who will take you so near their edge, but never drop you over?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?

Methusla Magoo


Zorro wrong again

01.08.2005 10:58

Ther police not only said that the shooting was "directly linked" to the bombings, but also that de Menezes was in fact one of the attempted suicide bombers.

'a senior police source told reporters, off the record, that they had killed one of the would-be suicide bombers who was on the run after the failed July 21 bombings.'

Sunday Times July31 page 16


The Home Office have not said that he had overstayed his visa, only that his previous visa had expired and that "We have no record of any further application or correspondence from Mr Menezes."
There is a difference.

mark


FFS....

01.08.2005 11:52

"'a senior police source told reporters, off the record, that they had killed one of the would-be suicide bombers who was on the run after the failed July 21 bombings.'"

If you honestly think that a Murdoch paper quoting an unnamed source counts as an official explanation of the Met's line, you're quite seriously deluded.

A


mark

01.08.2005 12:47

Not wishing to be a stickler for solid evidence or anything. You have a 3rd person quote there= hearsay, unless it can be verified to the alleged source.

Journalism is a bit like chinese whispers... except not as accurate. Strange how all these people are suddenly putting their full faith in the "corp'rit meedja" all of a sudden... when it suits them.

And like any good impartial obsever they won't accept any conclusion other than "Guilty!"

So much for a movement that believes in justice for all...

magoo


Not hearsay

01.08.2005 14:37

This is an article about the way that the Met smeared a man that they killed, to minimise the PR disaster for themselves. Whether they did this by official statements or off-the-record comments is immaterial.

The sentence from the Sunday Times is most definitely not hearsay. It's a witness account of what happened ie. 'The senior police source told reporters that the man was a suicide bomber'.

mark


mark

01.08.2005 17:30

I wouldn't bet a close relative's life on the veracity of any media statement attributed "sources close to" or "off the record", it's a way of making shit up with no comeback.

Being able to identify the source and corrobarate the information is never immaterial.

You'd make a good state prosecutor in Zimbabwe.

magoo


it's a way of making shit up with no comeback.

01.08.2005 19:26

"it's a way of making shit up with no comeback."

That's exactly what an off-the-record comment can be. That's what this senior police source did. He made shit up.

You think the journo from the Sunday Times is lying, I think the police are lying. I wonder who's right?

mark


"identify the source and corrobarate the information "

02.08.2005 07:33

mark: why would a "senior police officer" be so bloody stupid??? Indirect speech quotes should always be treated with skepticism and corrobation sought. Otherwise, anyone can make any shit up and it'll stick. Here's an example:


"Sources close to Mark said off the record that he was once caught with a butternut squash fat end first up his bum."

Now, go prove no-one said that!


Don't go asking me because I can't reveal my sources!

magoo


Are you thick or what?

02.08.2005 10:37

"why would a "senior police officer" be so bloody stupid???"

In order to smear the man that the police had just murdered.

mark


Possibly ...

02.08.2005 23:23

Or to take the focus off identifying who actually did the shooting. We do not know if the shooter actually worked for the London Police Service. More likely, he worked for an intelligence service, and was attempting to silence a potential witness.

You don't just shoot someone seven times in the head ...

7/21 Devices Planted to "Guide" Investigators


mark

03.08.2005 22:03

by YOUR criteria I'll gladly tick the box marked "cretin"

It's an hounor!

You still haven't disproved the allegation of the butternut squash!

Now run along or the monsters under the bed'll get you!

magoo


Magoo is a troll

04.08.2005 08:02

Oooh... I've been insulted on the internet. Big man. Thanks for showing us all you're a troll anyway.

I show you a broadsheet investigative piece stating that the police called de Menezes a suicide bomber, and your reaction is 'Oh the journalists must be lying.'

Not many people that gullible mate.

mark


mark

04.08.2005 19:30

You showed us a quote attributed to an anonymous source. Until you can identify the source and verify the quote it tells us nothing. It's hardly a smoking gun. And now you are suggesting that the Times never makes things up... or only in THIS instance they haven't???

If that makes me a troll as well as thick, then so be it. Meanwhile, I'll keep my mind open and not just jump on a bandwagon to blame it all on people I dislike... I think they call that "justice".

magoo


Focus Is Interesting

04.08.2005 22:36

Magoo's insistances such as those, while at the same time, ignoring the gaping holes and missing evidence behind the Bliar Government's Theories, is what really gives him away.

The infection of Plants within the IMC network is no big mystery.

IMC Infected By Spooks


IMC Infected By Spooks/Spoekfynder General

05.08.2005 07:48

I am not a part of IMC. I don't even know anyone that is- though I know people many IMCers will know and could establish my identity easily as beyond suspicion of sppokdom.

I freely allow anyone at IMC to comment on my status as non/part of IMC and whether my IP address looks remotely suspicious or just like some bod in the West Country with a fucked back that dips in here. I'll save you the research: The West Country is riddled with intelligence sites, military bases and secret/open high security locations. In fact, pretty much everywhere in the industrialised world has something of those ilks in their vicinity.

It's funny, in both senses, when you hit a certain threshold of reasoning with the conspiracy loons there is a kneejerk reaction of accusations of integrity... i.e. an attempt to smear.

However, I am still waiting for some sort of publication of your linguistic and technological methodologies for detecting spooks. Having a background in both linguistics and IT, I *know* you are talking crap. I don't expect you to admit that. But I'll keep reminding you that anyone knowlegable will spot you are a bullshitter a mile off. In fact, you don't have to have technical expertise to suss that out... an experience of playground politics is all you need.

What are these government "Theories"? As far as I can tell, at the purely factual level Downing Street is taking its lead from an ongoing police investigation. In case you have never researched how detection works, it starts of with evidence and soak tests all the credible theories it can muster unlike they are all eliminated leaving the most plausible.

Publication of methodology or defacto admission of bullshitting: what'll it be PsyOps?



The Quiet Glaswegian/magoo


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