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Police knew Brazilian was 'not bomb risk', CCTV System Was Working

Various | 23.08.2005 17:42

This begs the question, then, who shot this man seven times in the head, and why? Since it would appear that the 7/21 devices were planted in order to provide investigators with "evidence" intended to frame someone, and distract from the Bliar Government's complete inability to prove its Conspiracy Theory regarding 7/7, was this man silenced for something he saw? I think it's about time for an independent investigation of all aspects of 7/7/21, to find out what really took place, and who was truly responsible.

Police knew Brazilian was 'not bomb risk'

Met chief was told of 'difficulty' over fatal shooting · Police offer to pay de Menezes family £15,000

Tony Thompson, Martin Bright , Gaby Hinsliff and Tom Phillips in Gonzaga, Brazil
Sunday August 21, 2005
The Observer

Police officers from the team involved in the fatal shooting of Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes did not believe he posed 'an immediate threat'.

Senior sources in the Metropolitan Police have told The Observer that members of the surveillance team who followed de Menezes into Stockwell underground station in London felt that he was not about to detonate a bomb, was not armed and was not acting suspiciously. It was only when they were joined by armed officers that his threat was deemed so great that he was shot seven times.

Sources said that the surveillance officers wanted to detain de Menezes, but were told to hand over the operation to the firearms team.

The two teams have fallen out over the circumstances surrounding the incident, raising fresh questions about how the operation was handled.

A police source said: 'There is no way those three guys would have been on the train carriage with him [de Menezes] if they believed he was carrying a bomb. Nothing he did gave the surveillance team the impression that he was carrying a device.'

Last night, Metropolitan Police chief Sir Ian Blair admitted he was told that shooting created 'a difficulty'.

In an interview with the News of the World, Blair said that an officer came to him the day after the shooting and said the equivalent of 'Houston, we have a problem'.

'He didn't use those words but he said "We have some difficulty here, there is a lack of connection". 'I thought "That's dreadful, what are we going to do about that?".'

The Observer can also reveal that the de Menezes family was offered £15,000 after the shooting. The ex gratia payment, which does not affect legal action by the family or compensation, is a fraction of the $1 million (£560,000) reported to have been offered the family. Police yesterday denied they had made the offer, which the family has described as 'offensive'.

Members of the firearms unit are said to be furious that de Menezes was not properly identified when he left his flat, the first problem in the chain of events that led to the Brazilian's death.

Specialist officers with the firearms team active that day had received training in how to deal with suicide bombers. A key element was advice that a potential bomber will detonate at the first inkling he has been identified. They are trained to react at the first sign of any action.

The Observer now understands that seconds before the firearms team entered the tube train carriage, a member of the surveillance squad using the codename Hotel 3 moved to the doorway and shouted: 'He's in here.' De Menezes, in all likelihood alarmed by the activity, stood and moved towards the doorway. He was grabbed and pushed back to his seat. The first shots were then fired while Hotel 3 was holding him.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is to investigate if the firearms officers, with only seconds to decide whether to shoot, mistakenly interpreted de Menezes's movement as an aggressive act.

For the firearms officers involved in the death to avoid any legal action, they will have to state that they believed their lives and those of the passengers were in immediate danger. Such a view is unlikely to be supported by members of the surveillance unit.

For reasons as yet unclear, members of the firearms team have yet to submit their own account of the events to the IPCC. The two members of the team believed to have fired the fatal shots are known to have gone on holiday immediately after the shooting.

In one case, the holiday had been pre-booked, in the other the leave was authorised by Blair, who yesterday received the backing of the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke: 'I am very happy with the conduct, not only of Sir Ian Blair, but the whole Metropolitan Police in relation to this inquiry.'

Meanwhile, questions have been raised about the accuracy of the police intelligence that led to the raid on the block of flats occupied by de Menezes. It was initially suggested that the flat was connected to the man known as Hussein Osman, who was arrested in Italy. On the Saturday after the shooting, officers raided the flat in a high-profile operation watched by the world's media. As a result, a man, identified only as 'C', was arrested 'on suspicion of the commission, instigation or preparation of acts of terrorism'. But he was released on 30 July with no charge, raising the possibility that the flats had no connection with the bombings.

The IPCC is also expected to look into selective briefings to the media over the days following the shootings.

The parents of de Menezes said they have rejected all financial offers made by the police. 'I feel hurt and offended,' Jean's mother, Maria Otoni de Menezes, told The Observer this weekend. 'I didn't think it was right to talk about money so soon after my son's death.'

One document seen by The Observer and handed to the family on 1 August by the Met's assistant deputy commissioner, John Yates, sets out a final settlement, on top of an agreement to pay repatriation and legal fees. 'The MPS offers £15,000 by way of compensation to you for the death of Jean Charles,' says the document, dated 27 July. 'This ... extra gratia paymen ... means it is paid without any consideration of legal liability or responsibility.'

 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1553440,00.html

Tube CCTV: Was there a cover-up?
by BEN TAYLOR, Daily Mail 07:40am 23rd August 2005

Stockwell: 'No footage', police claim

Scotland Yard has been plunged into a damaging new 'cover-up' row over missing CCTV footage from the station where Jean Charles de Menezes was shot.

London Underground sources insisted that at least three of the four cameras trained on the Stockwell Tube platform were in full working order.

This appears to contradict police assertions that 'technical problems' meant no footage exists of the innocent Brazilian's final moments before he was killed by marksmen after being wrongly identified as a potential suicide bomber.

* News: Tube shooting inquest postponed


The sources also rejected suggestions that the cameras had not been fitted with new tapes after police took away footage from the previous day, July 21, when suspects in the failed bombings caught trains there.

The revelations increased calls for a full public inquiry and heaped further pressure on Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair who has faced repeated calls to resign.

The row erupted as senior Brazilian justice officials arrived in London to question the Independent Police Complaints Commission team investigating the shooting of electrician Mr de Menezes.

A senior rail industry source said yesterday: "There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the CCTV cameras were not working. If a tape is taken away to be studied, it is automatically replaced."

Another official said: "At least three of the four cameras were working. There were no reports of anything wrong with them."

Extracts from a police report, however, claimed that examination of the platform cameras had produced no footage. It said: "It has been established that there has been a technical problem with the CCTV equipment on the relevant platform and no footage exists."

It said there was no footage, either, from CCTV in the carriage where Mr de Menezes was shot eight times at point-blank range.

The report said: "Although there was on-board CCTV in the train, due to previous incidents, the hard drive had been removed and not replaced."

'Cameras in working order'

The platform CCTV system is maintained by Tube Lines - a private sector consortium in charge of maintaining the Northern Line.

Sources at the company insist that the cameras were in working order but a spokesman said last night that it could not comment officially while the investigation into the shooting continued.

The Daily Mail revealed earlier this month that, while there was CCTV footage of Mr de Menezes entering the South London station, there appeared to be nothing capturing his final moments as he ran for the Northern Line train on which he was shot.

He had been trailed from his home in Tulse Hill, South London, after he emerged from a block of flats that had been linked to a July 21 suspect.

Former Cabinet minister Clare Short joined relatives of the dead man and members of the Metropolitan Police Authority yesterday to say that a public inquiry into the death was inevitable.

She said it had to establish who had been 'telling lies'. She told ITV: "We've been lied to. This should be bigger than just calling for Sir Ian Blair to go. We need to find out exactly what happened. Who was telling the lies?"

The dead man's cousin, Alessandro Pereira, repeated his demands for a public inquiry.

He said: "Every day we discover more and more lies. We have heard too many. We simply demand truth and justice."

'The shot my son'

Mr de Menezes's mother Maria said: "They took my son's life. I am suffering because of that. I want the policeman who did that punished. They ended not only my son's life, but mine as well."

The continued revelations have already forced Tony Blair and Home Secretary Charles Clarke to give Sir Ian a public vote of confidence. The Commissioner himself has urged people to focus on the wider terror inquiry - but has admitted that he did not know for at least 24 hours that his marksmen had killed an innocent man.

Sir Ian has also been criticised over the way Scotland Yard offered an initial £15,000 compensation payment to the dead man's family shortly after the shooting. Brazilians Wagner Goncalves of the Federal Prosecutor's Office and Marcio Pereira Pinto Garcia, of the Ministry of Justice, went to Scotland Yard straight from Heathrow and met Sir Ian and Deputy Assistant Commissioner John Yates.

In its account of the meeting, the Metropolitan Police said last night it had told members of Mr de Menezes's family in the UK two days after his death that many of the initial reports were wrong.

The force said they were told he did not run into the station, that he did not vault the barrier but used a ticket, and that he was not wearing a heavy jacket or carrying a bag. The police hope the statement shows they were upfront with the family at an early stage.

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=360051&in_page_id=1770

Various

Comments

Hide the following 24 comments

Appeal for (police) witnesses

23.08.2005 18:42


Come forward oh cowardly police!

One of you out there knows the truth! Surely one of you coppers has balls enough to speak truthfully and let it be known what really happened that day. No-one believes that the CCTV was broken in all 4 cameras. Please out the wrong-doers! We know you know what happened. It is time to come forward and work towards justice! isn't that what you joined the force for? Didn't you sign up in order to fight crime? Well do it now! It is your chance! We want justice! You hold the key. Are you so easily corruptible that you fall at the first hurdle? We know you can do it! Tell us the truth now!

We want justice! Please deliver it!

London Activist


Noam you big old Zionist Plant!

23.08.2005 19:19

Zorro:

I heard on Radio 4 today that the Brazillians are happy there is NO cover up happening. Haven't looked into it though.

It occured to me when I was having my matudinal movement this morning that Mr PsyOps has actually indirectly accused Noam Chomsky as being a spook/troll/plant, since the Professor believes that Al Qaeda exists, and PsyOps believes anyone who denies the PNAC/Zion theory is obvious dubious. Hahahahaha!

If it's a choice between Jones and Chomsky, I'll back the laughing Noam any day!

Do you get the impression that some people get off on these situation muchs like (in my Connery accent) "shum sheeple" get off on who's going to win Big Brother?

XXX to PsyOps!

Magoo
mail e-mail: prinzerle@hotmail.com


fuck off magoo and zorro and back on topic

23.08.2005 21:08

magoo is off topic again.

For the second time I see that he/she/it tries to turn a thread related to Jean De Menezes' death into a flame war about Zionist conspiracies.

They pay you a lot magoo and zorro ?

Back on topic :

It has been acknowledged officially by the Police now if I understand well that Jean De Menezes was not an obvious threat in any way :

"In a statement, Scotland Yard said it had briefed de Menezes' family in Britain -- his cousins -- two days after the shooting.

Officers told them that contrary to earlier reports, de Menezes had not run into the Tube station, had not been wearing a padded jacket and that he had not vaulted the ticket barrier, a spokesman said. A similar briefing was given to Brazilian consulate officials the following day."

 http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/23/uk.police.shooting/

So it seems Scotland Yard has acknowledged to the familly of the man one month ago that he wasn't a perceivable threat in any way.

They did nothing to correct public misperception of the event.

If those who have murdered this man aren't brought to Justice and severely punished it will mean that Death Squads with the power of following and murdering people wearing a simple T-Shirt on the grounds that suicide bombers can hide bombs under their coats will have been legitimized.

gazubal


So what would you like the police to have done?

23.08.2005 21:28

It's pretty clear to everyone that this story is both confused and confusing. The question is, how do you think the police should have handled the aftermath of the shooting?

They could have released every bit of information that they had as soon as they had it. Names, faces, details, recordings of communications, CCTV, the lot. The problem with that would be that it would make it almost impossible for the IPCC to conduct a serious investigation and to hold a credible trial should anyone be indicted.

Alternatively, they could have said nothing at all. This would have appeared very suspicious and would have fuelled understandable public concern and anxiety about the situation.

Clearly some kind of response was required. The situation was unprecedented. We know that not everything said by all the various people connected with this incident, not just the police, has been apparently the truth or the whole truth.

All of which comes back to the point that we should wait for the IPCC report and expect action to be taken on its conclusions, including prosecuting anyone suspected of a crime. Or do you think we should have the guilty verdict first, the sentence after that, and worry about examining the evidence properly when we bother to get around to it?

Zorro


By the way

23.08.2005 22:42

It is not me who has posted the topic.

gazubal


Insight

23.08.2005 23:17

“The question is, how do you think the police should have handled the aftermath of the shooting?……They could have released every bit of information that they had as soon as they had it……….Alternatively, they could have said nothing at all. This would have fuelled understandable public concern and anxiety about the situation.”

Clearly, the above were the only options. The police had to make a statement or it would have bred anxiety; they couldn’t have revealed everything because it would have jeopardised any future enquiry. Therefore, the only course was to release a pile of blatantly incorrect information to calm the situation and ensure a proper investigation could follow.

Thank you, Zorro, for your compelling insights.

RB


Time To Answer Some Questions

23.08.2005 23:28

But the 'I'PCC was also withholding this information, and it is only known to us because some patriot working within the organization was good enough to leak it. That action alone suggests that it would not have likely come to light otherwise.

I think it's about time for an independent investigation of all aspects of 7/7/21, to find out what really took place, and who was truly responsible.

Every Gov't Claim Is Suspect


folding under questioning

24.08.2005 01:02

the constant leaks and revelations

are distractions away from
and helping to use the SO17-19
so called police operation

as a diversion

the police are well below ....the special ops secret army in the pecking order
so Blair will willingly fall on his sword for the queen

the operation was a ex-FRU intelliigence 14
secret army unit
under advisory from the Israeli forces as part of Operation Kratos

this is not anti semitic conspiracy
it is a fact that UK had advisory from the Israeli special ops
to deal with suicide bombers - they were also looking at bomb
detecting equipment months before the initial 7-7 attacks
which begs the question - if they were concerned -
why lower the threat level before the
G8 meeting in Edinburgh?


if the July 21st bombers were copycat...and had inefficient methods
which could have been verified by the bombsquad
and the 'mastermind was identified as Oman Hussein
who apparently was on his way via Eurostar to Italy
via the French border control...

he didn't get shot...amazingly....

[Why did Eliza Mannigham Buller
arrange a meeting with French intell 5th July?]


why tail and bring in shoot to kill scenario
on a 'copy cat flour bomber'
??????????????????????


anti terror jumpyness ???
trigger happy SO17-19 cops????

JUST DOESN'T CUT IT

remember Sir Iain Blair asserted the 'facts'
Menezes was part of
the search for 21st July ....er...'bombers'....


that he vaulted the ticket barriers

that he was acting suspiciously

heavy coat...


not forgetting
Mongolian eyes...
[that's a recent smear]



apparently he was shot 7 times

with further shots going amiss

how many shots does it take?

why are they shooting to kill?

now he says he didn't know he was innocent
until 24 hours after


hate to repeat myself but...


just saunter to yourseves to your local tube station and get shot
for apparently being under suspicion

this is not good at all

the whole sorry debacle points to News media / government collusion
in setting a scripted version of events spinning it to
garner maximum fear value
and damage limitation
from the real facts of this 'operation'


the demonising the victim to the point that i cannot belive the country i am living in

a definite acknowledgement needs to be made
from certain quarters that
given all these elements of distraction and tabloidism

[this means media holding their hands up to being corporatist whores
who can sterr governmet opinion...... so don't hold your breath]

an inquest needs to be put into operation that deals with not only the
murder of John Charles de Menezes

but the subsequent spinning and disgraceful propaganda
that have now come to light

just as a reminder

why wasn't shoot to kill announced after 9-11?

after all it was a suicide bombing was it not?
[albeit using planes]

just after & July Bombing a mass of
suicide bombings hit Iraq


some co-incidence






pc


Mr Magoo, our friendly neighborhood spy

24.08.2005 06:36

Magoo, what make you think the Brazilians went in there with any intention of getting at the facts? Untill we know what was said, and what their intentions were, the evidence clearly indicates a cover up. The CCTV images is the latest nail in the coffin of police integrity.

brian


Double standards

24.08.2005 08:55

Zorro says, by way of justifying the misleading comments of Sir Ian Blair:
"Clearly some kind of response was required. The situation was unprecedented. We know that not everything said by all the various people connected with this incident, not just the police, has been apparently the truth or the whole truth."

OK, fair enough. But if Blair had to comment, even if he was 'misinformed', then didn't he also have an obligation to correct himself, equally publicly, as soon as he knew the truth?

Zorro continues:
"All of which comes back to the point that we should wait for the IPCC report and expect action to be taken on its conclusions, including prosecuting anyone suspected of a crime."

Um, hang on. Why is it OK for Sir Ian Blair to make comments that are completely false (even while he's trying to prevent the IPCC investigating the incident!), but everyone else ought to shut-up until their report materialises? This is a clear case of double-standards.



Mr. Demeanour


Answer the question

24.08.2005 09:00

RB: "Clearly, the above were the only options. The police had to make a statement or it would have bred anxiety; they couldn’t have revealed everything because it would have jeopardised any future enquiry. Therefore, the only course was to release a pile of blatantly incorrect information to calm the situation and ensure a proper investigation could follow."

But you still haven't answered the question. What should the police have said about the shooting, and when?

Bear in mind that much of the apparently incorrect information has come from a variety of sources; eye witnesses, the media, the Home Office, etc., not just the police.

So let's come back to the question and play a little game. You are the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. It's two weeks after a major terrorist attack in London that left 52 victims dead and the day after what appears - at least at first sight - to be a second attempt at a similar attack. None of the bombers from yesterday have been identified or caught. Your staff have shot dead someone within the last hour. You're still not exactly sure what happened, who the man was and what his possible involvement was. You have a news conference in half an hour. What do you tell them?

Zorro


What do I tell them?

24.08.2005 10:47

Question: "You have a news conference in half an hour. What do you tell them?"

Answer: "Hi, I'm Ian Blair. That's "SIR IAN" to you. Half an hour ago my death squads err police force killed a foreigner. Some foreigners are terrorists. We can't take any chances. If you're foreign, we'll be watching you. If you want to protest you're gonna have to ask my permission. My troops said he ran, that he had a puffy wog jacket and hopefully the truth will be on the CCTV cameras when they're made available. What's the fuss all about anyway? It's only one foreigner, they killed 57 of us 2 weeks ago! "

Sir Ian Blair


How many times

24.08.2005 11:12

I've lost count how may times those in authority hide behind the fact that they cannot comment as there is an ongoing investigation. Yes it p**sses you off because you know they don't want to incriminate themselves. BUT I thought under the circumstances that would have been an appropriate response.

However, what actually happened was they started spouting lies about the incident. There are so many holes in their justification for what they did. If they really thought he was a threat why let him jump n a bus, why let him enter the tube station and why let him enter the train. From what I understand there were three undercover officers on the same train sitting closely. All of this erodes any confidence I have in our security forces (which is almost non-existent now).

To blame what happened on the victim because of his behaviour or clothing were nothing but blatent lies.

So in answer to the question what did we expect? Personally, I'd expect either "As there will be an investigation, we cannot comment on this case", "Its too early to comment at this stage, until we know more." OR something resembling the truth.

Its not good enough to hide behind the fact that the public demanded quick answers so we made up a pack of lies, then we tried to cover up those lies and now we're p**ssed off cos the truth has come out before we were ready.

How many times have the public demanded answers and hit a brick wall. Its not uncommon!! The truth is they lied about it, hoping that 'in these times of terror' people would accept what happened as an unfortunate accident.

This government are using the 'threat of terror' to pass all manner of legislation. Its an insult to the people of this country, just as much as the lies they told about this incident.

Sparky the Clown


Why , why, why ?

25.08.2005 12:04

I have dwelt for some time on all that and my own personal conclusion so far is :

They genuinely mistook Jean De Menezes for the man who is currently held by the Italian authorities.

And he was meant to be executed this way as to make a public example of him.

I cannot see any other explanation.

As a side note and as it is shadowed by more the prominent facts, it is amazing to see how fast they identified the 21/7 bombers. 1 day or less.

As well I have noted that Whitby says he was offered counselling straight afterwards by some personel that was there, which possibly indicates a quite important crisis management team was operating along the police officers.

gazubal


gazubal

25.08.2005 13:37

I wounldn't be at all surprised if we discover there were two seperately controlled units working that day and with very different orders (one "capture alive" and one "STK"). The 2nd a covert operation to kill a terrorist in situ sending out TWO messages "Look public, we've got it under controll!" and "Look terrorists, We're one step ahead!". But, that's pure speculation on my behalf.

I'd be very cautious in treating ANYTHING Whitby has to say with credibility. He changes his story more often than Blair.

magoo


Nothing to Hide - Nothing to Fear

25.08.2005 13:39

It is evident that the SRR (Special Response Regiment) trained by Israeli's, set out to execute a train passenger, after 21/7, as part of the 'psy-op' to make all civilians 'suspects' and fair game. You'd better get your transparent "Freedom Bag" for commuting.

Menenez was allegedly mistaken for Hussain Osman, who's only crime was to run from Shepherd's Bush Station, where no bomb exploded and nobody was killed. Yet, police were prepared to "shoot-to-kill" this man, rather than entitle him to the due process of law.

That is more scary than Muslim extremists!

Profiled


witnesses were held for several hours

25.08.2005 19:37

in a building nearby the crime scene, where they would have been de-briefed, or perhaps re-briefed.I have also considered that this was a deliberately targetted execution, the only mistake being that 'they' missed their intended target. By a thousand miles or so. And these are the cops in whose hands the security of our island has been placed. It would be laughable if it were not so diabolically feral.

jimjam


Sigh

25.08.2005 20:17

"Hussain Osman, who's only crime was to run from Shepherd's Bush Station..."

You have got to be kidding!

That's a bit like saying that if I try to shoot you and miss, my only crime is "making a loud bang".

Qwerty


re Magoo

25.08.2005 22:19

It's ironic you're invoking Chomsky in an attempt to mock anti-zionist conspiracy theorists, because while he might believe al quaeda exists, he also blames half the world's problems on Israel.

Usually I find Chomsky states the obvious like a robot, whereas Jones at least has the occasional interesting hypothesis.

anon


anon

26.08.2005 06:46

I'm not sure where you see any "irony". I will concede that Chomsky's typically scientific style is somewhat dry and lacks excitement, buti don't see what advange sensational style can have to a reader unless it's etertainment your after rather than factual analysis.

Does he really "blame hald the worlds problems on Israel"? I know he's very critical of Israel and US funding of that State but even more critical of US foreign policy in general. Perhaps, the Anti-defamation League would back you up...

Magoo


Why Kill him then ?

26.08.2005 08:33

"was this man silenced for something he saw?"

Why kill him and attract attention to his case then ? His killing has served no good purpose for either the police or the governement. It would be have been just as easy to disapear him.

dsfg


No Sense, No Justice

26.08.2005 17:12

If you try to shoot me and miss, your crime is "making a loud bang" in an attempted murder,
Qwerty, but Hussain Osman's "bomb" was comprised of flour and couldn't kill anyone, so he is guilty of attempted baking! For that "crime" he was sentenced to roadside execution, for which Jean De Menenez paid with his life. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer trial by jury.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old Fashioned


Old Fashioned

26.08.2005 20:38

Well it's a moot point whether he is guilty of "causing a public nuisance" and posession of a minor explosive device (i.e. a detonator cap) or given that he changed his story and said the intent was only to frighten people that he may be guilty of attempted terrorist acts, causing an explosion, multiple murder etc etc etc.

I do however agree that it's looking like it could very well have been a top secret operation to execute him in a public place... one thing is for sure, I agree with the basis of his extradiction appeal; he is unlikely to receive a fair trial in the UK.

And being old-fashioned myself, that's no fucking way to run a country! If it weren't all so sad, it'd be farcical.

magoo


.

27.08.2005 09:43


.

.


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