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Can we change the world without taking power?

Chris Nineham | 24.08.2005 18:11 | Analysis | Workers' Movements

Do we need political organisation to challenge the state? Chris Nineham replies to the arguments of the autonomist writers who claim that we don’t

Can we change the world without taking power?

Italian workers join a 1974 general strike in Milan. During this period Italy saw the biggest left wing movement in Europe, but by the late 1970s the strategy of the autonomists had helped lead it to defeat
Do we need political organisation to challenge the state? Chris Nineham replies to the arguments of the autonomist writers who claim that we don’t

John Holloway and other writers known as autonomists have exerted a powerful ­influence on the anti-capitalist movement. Holloway’s main argument, expressed in books such as Change the World Without Taking Power, is that “you cannot build a society of non-power relations by conquering power”.

His conclusion is that the movement should ignore the state, because any attempt to challenge state power will lead to the movement trying to replace it. That in turn will create a new elite.

For Holloway change can only come from spontaneous action from the grassroots. He writes, “There is a whole world of struggle that does not aim at all at winning power… that sometimes goes no further than saying ‘NO!’.”

He looks to struggles independent of political parties, the official labour movement, or any other organised forces. All attempts at political leadership are seen as suspect. What matters is the act of resistance.

It is easy to see the appeal of these ideas. The anti-capitalist movement arrived on the scene in the late 1990s when Labour parties everywhere were selling their souls to the market.

Much of the rest of the left was compromised by its earlier support for Stalinist Russia and confused by the fall of this regime. Inspired by new signs of resistance around the world some activists rejected all politics in the name of the struggle.

It is also easy to see the problems. Talk of ignoring the state was perplexing when the US began throwing its military weight around the globe. As the war on terror turns into a state led assault on civil liberties, it now seems positively perverse.

Barrier
The autonomists’ argument is confused. For one thing they skate over the different approaches the left takes toward the state and power. Even in its more radical days the Labour Party aimed to win elections in order to use the state to improve life for working class people.

Marxists take the opposing view that the state cannot be used to transform society because its purpose is to protect the interests of the wealthy.

Leading members of the ruling class run state institutions, such as the civil service, the police and the army. For our rulers the state is a vital barrier to change.

Holloway argues the left over­estimates the power of the state. “The state is not the locus of power that it appears to be,” he writes. “Power is not possessed by any particular person or institution, power lies rather in the fragmentation of social relations.”

Of course corporate power does affect every aspect of our lives. Privatised social life makes us feel isolated and powerless. Bosses and managers do everything they can to discipline and divide us at work.

But the capitalists still need a state that can overcome the divisions ­between different sections of their class and act as a centre of their power, while appearing as a neutral body.

Armies fight for business interests abroad and impose order at home in times of crisis. Police forces play a more calibrated law and order role, but their core duty is to defend the status quo.

Ten thousand police were mobilised to protect the world leaders assembled at the G8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland, in July. Millions saw them on TV lashing out at protesters days before the march on the summit.

From Egypt to Ecuador strikes, demonstrations and movements for democracy all face attack by their local state.

Softer state institutions, such as the education system and state media, also play their part in shoring up ruling class power by promoting its values and ideas.

Humbled
The state is far from all-powerful. The US’s might is being humbled in Iraq. In Latin America mass movements in country after country have defied the police and toppled governments.

There is a long history of sections of the army and even the police coming over to the side of the people during insurrections.

During the Bolivian uprising in June at least one police regiment in the capital, La Paz, refused to go onto the street to attack workers and peasants. But we are dreaming if we think we can change society without taking the state seriously.

This means analysing how capitalist society works. Here the autonomist writers are of little help. Holloway argues that analysis itself can be oppressive. “Through classification, conceptual hierarchies are formed,” he writes.

Holloway’s view is that the struggle against power takes place at an individual level, so he does not have much to say about how society works. He writes, “Anti-power exists wherever humans live.”

There are differences between the autonomist writers. The Italian author and activist Tony Negri has a more socially based analysis.

In Empire and Multitude, the two best selling books he has co-written with Michael Hardt, he argues that capitalism is undermining itself.

Old hierarchies are disappearing as networks form around new kinds of “immaterial” production. These flat, non-hierarchical networks contain the seeds of a new democratic social movement.

Subjugated
“The vast majority of our political and productive interactions are always based on democratic relations,” writes Negri. “Even when labour is subjugated by capital it always maintains its own autonomy.”

It is true that capitalist globalisation has spread the working class around the globe, making international solidarity easier. It has created enormous pools of bitterness from which new alliances and struggles can spring.

But it has also concentrated wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. The spread of the market has been accompanied by increased tyranny in the workplace and repression in the streets.

More than ever, workers and the poor need to struggle to fight for better lives and a better world. But for Negri “class struggle and revolutionary organisation have become outdated and useless”.

Despite their differences, autonomist writers such as Negri and Holloway agree that all forms of political leadership are a menace.

The most activists should do is to create space for the spontaneity of the masses. This is an elitist and dangerous view. Any struggle will involve discussions about how to win. Some activists will put faith in persuading the authorities, others will understand the power relations at work.

The heated debates that take place in any campaign show that strategy matters. In the words of the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci, “There is no such thing as a spontaneous struggle.”

Disaster
The history of autonomism proves the point. The ideas were first developed in the 1960s in Italy as a reaction to the reformist politics of the Italian Communist Party. But they led to disaster for the movement.

In 1969 there was an explosion of rank and file militancy in the Italian factories, which autonomists such as Negri supported.

When the reformist trade union leaders tried to contain this struggle, the autonomists didn’t challenge them for leadership of the movement.

Instead they looked outside the factory for new forces of change. Negri started to define a worker as “anyone who rebelled”. The autonomists began to champion the unemployed, students and women as the new driving forces of the revolution.

Some went on to back the terrorist tactics of groups such as the Red Brigades, whose bombings and kidnappings finally alienated an already tired working class from the left.

By the end of the 1970s Europe’s biggest left wing movement had run out of energy. Obsessed with spontaneity, the far left had not mapped out a way forward for the movement.

One participant admitted that they had “failed to build an alliance between the factory workers and other social groups outside the factories, to involve the mass of workers in the political issues underlying the factory struggles… the revolutionary movement lacked any kind of coherent strategy”.

Absence of memory
Cut off from the working class the left was wide open for attack. The Italian state rounded up and imprisoned hundreds of militants, including Negri himself.

Undeterred, Negri continued to insist on spontaneity and to deny the need for analysis or reflection. “The workers of Gdansk, the Neapolitan proletariat have no need of memory. Communist tradition is the absence of memory,” he wrote.

The autonomists’ refusal to face up to the politics of power can lead away from challenging the system. For example, Negri recently came out in support of the neo-liberal European constitution because he saw the European Union as a lesser evil than US power.

Today in many countries our movement is having to confront the power of the state. Across the world radicals and revolutionaries are trying to build a new left in the wake of the betrayal of the social liberals. The writings of Holloway and the autonomists are of little help in either case.

Full article at:
 http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php4?article_id=7190
.........................................................................................
I thought all the autonomists would enjoy this one - it should start a good debate (no abuse please).

Posted by Neil (the www address below is mine).

Chris Nineham
- Homepage: http://fightbackuk.blogspot.com/

Comments

Hide the following 31 comments

tired and authoritarian

24.08.2005 18:58

Not only is this the product of an authoritarian political party, it is also an ancient article. Why has Niel posted it up? It's certainly not news.

random


How could we change the world without disempowering the powerfuls?

24.08.2005 19:49

How could we change the world without the disempowerment of the powerfuls and the empowerment of the powerless?

Almighty Powerless


But...

24.08.2005 21:39

I'm no swuppie lover, but a lot of this makes sense. I've read John Holloway's book and saw him debate it with Callinicos at the WSF and I think his ideas avoid a fairly basic reality - that the state can't be ignored, it has to be challenged, in various ways.

I don't think the problem with the SWP is that they want to get people together in an organised movement against capitalism. The problem with the SWP is that they stifle debate and pluralism and act like a cult, unable to listen and learn and often damaging campaigns and alienating people as a result.

On the other hand it sometimes worries me that a lot of the anarchist scene seems to be guides by failry esoteric texts like Holloway's and Negri's that don't really say much new underneath the obscurantist discourse. If you ask me, a bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss.

me


Difficult Question?

25.08.2005 00:37

Perhaps the spontaneous action that John certainly desires, and I am sure many would want, including so called authoritarian socialists, if they thought it were possible, just is not possible due to the immense power of the capitalist state, and the overwhelming effectiveness of its propaganda.

After spontaneous uprisings or after a mass revolutionary consciousness arises the counter revolution by the capitalist state and its supporters would be very violent. History indicates this, and the willingness and desire of "liberal" capitalist states to use massive violence to preserve itself is evident even today. Vietnam, Chile, and so and so on right up to Iraq ...

It is so ironic that Charles Clarke and Blair want to now introduce laws that would prohibit condoning or even sympathising with terrorist acts committed by heavily repressed peoples against their oppressors.

The Blair's Bushes and Clarke's promote the most horrendous violence and state terrorism against innocent and already repressed people. But there are no state laws against there psychotic and callous mass murder of innocent people. Capitalist propaganda is so good at its job, to fool the masses, that we don't even think consider these things.

These people understand well the use of violence and the abuse of power. So well in fact that tragically, I believe, they will only respond to it, or at least the threat of violence. They do respond to moral arguments, or augments about justice and fairness. They respond to opportunities for profit and power, or the prospect of losing them.

International law is ignored by these people if it works against their wish to use massive violence. Iraq was an illegal war, like so many others

The violence these sort of people would be prepared to inflict on a spontaneous uprising would be unimaginable. Its just that their propaganda fools everyone. They claim to defend the rule of law and freedom. They are just ruthlessly defending their privileges and power.

So in conclusion perhaps seizing power from them is not the ideal way, far from it because we know power can corrupt the most idealistic, and to oppose the counter-revolution violence and organisation would be necessary.

Perhaps to rely on theory that has never yet been proven to work is very risky, even though getting rid of these power relations as the soonest possible juncture would be the most desirable course of action. But the sate and its supporters would not change character overnight, they would probably fight to the bitter end to preserve their privileges and power. Or seize any opportunity to get them back.

That doesn't exclude that spontaneous uprising and the immediate dissolution of these power could never work. It would be an act of faith unless someone can prove that this would be the best course of action. I wish someone could.

Let the debate go on. Howver isn;t there a need for a certain degree of openmindedness on both sides of this argument, and not just blinkered or blind faith in one way or the other.

Ed Campbell


Has it worked yet ?

25.08.2005 06:47

You have only been on that path for 60 years and got nowhere, smarten yourselves up, sack your state run mouthpieces.. after all who does run the shop, the "high command".
convince people to vote for you in elections, you can not become the state, but the state can become you.
A good start would be to stop throwing bricks at people and running away, stop holding demos dressed like scroungers and convince people you could actually run a country instead of running it down.
Recognize that your political opponents are trying to oust a bent government just like yourselves and spend your energy on the state and not them, tolerate them and together at opposition to each other you can oust the government from both sides,.
Mind you, there is always the the next 60 years. !

Dolly The Sheeple


Oooop!

25.08.2005 06:53

Of course: .." Blairs, Bushes and Clarkes..." I do know how to use apostrophies thanks. And I do know the difference between "their" and "there", as well. So no more lessons, please.

..


Correction

25.08.2005 08:02

"They do respond to moral arguments, or augments about justice and fairness". I missed out a "not".

It should read: "They do not respond to moral ...

I deliberately didn't read Chris's article before I wrote my comment.

What I am really saying, that it is necessary to challenge the power of the state, particularly its propaganda.

I believe organised political parties can do this, but they are the start of a process, and contribute to a process of changing and raising the consciousness of the "masses" , and empowering them.

I believe even truly social democratic parties- the Labour Party are not one, nor even is the SPD in Germany one either, they are new liberal capitalist parties can contribute to this process. I think democratic socialist parties can go further in contributing to a process that in the end will produce a better society. But these parties cannot achieve the end, a society without malign, destructive oppressive power relations with a powerful state of some description controlling and directing the lives of people.

Revolutionary parties obviously take things even further and want to replace the state with another form of organisation that would still have some degree of power to direct peoples lives. Then they want to dissolve this power through a process.

To rely on spontaneous action to get rid of the power of the state and to immediately open up the opportunity for a society without malign power relations to appear and develop of its own volition by agreement and involvement of all might be desirable, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that this just cannot happen.

The capitalist state would try and oppose this at every turn, and if there were no powerful political organisation to oppose it, surely it would succeed.

But i would agree that the state is not all powerful. Its power relies on the effectiveness of its propaganda and its ability to retain the support of a large number of people, and to continue fooling those people. Once the state and its active supporters are exposed for what they really are their base and support: the army, the police force and the many others that the state relies on to run its oppressive apparatus can be won over to a belief in another form of society, if they can see it is to their benefit.

But to change the minds of a large majority of these people in a spontaneous uprising, so that they believe that a completely different and better way of organising society is possible is a theoretical proposition for which there is not much evidence. The capitalist state would oppose this in every way it could.

A more reliable way would be to seize the opportunity to defend and retain any change in consciousness of a large number of people; enough people to make a difference. And to defend that change and take it further, past the opposition of the much weakened capitalist state, surely political organisation and direction would be necessary and this involves political leadership which can take many forms.

Is it not the case that it is only when a new society has been formed and is consistent and stable that the need for concentrated political leadership such as we understand it now disappears. This leadership can be in the form of political parties or other forms of political organisation such as working groups of "non-authoritarians" who seek to direct political and organisational developments.

leadership can then become diffuse and spread throughout many structures and forms. it eventually becomes possible for everyone to be a political leader of their own lives and communities. I am certainly not convinced that it is possible to jump from where we are now, to this in one mass spontaneous uprising or movement. Wouldn't we all wish it were possible.

We cannot rely on a wish or blind faith, but I would keep my mind open that such conditions could develop at some point, but there are many phases of development to go through first, and that to get to that point we need forms of political organisation that can challenge the propaganda and power of the capitalist state that can pragmatically put into practice something better that takes the collective consciousness of the large majority closer to the end.

This "end" would be a very different world, indeed another world that more and more are beginning to believe is possible.






Edward Campbell


Change the world by talking crap

25.08.2005 08:53

Having read Holloway's book, the transcript of the WSF discussion with Callinicos and other debates about "Change the World Without Taking Power" its pretty clear that there is a genuine debate to be had around most of the issues raised by Holloway. However, many of the criticism made by certain members of the SWP seem bizarre. All quotes from Nineham's article:

"This means analysing how capitalist society works. Here the autonomist writers are of little help."

Despite recognising later on that Holloway (who in his book certainly does not go into great detail on how capitalist society works - although he does reference important debates) is by no means representative of all autonomists, Nineham ignores the massive evidence showing autonomist concern with exactly that matter. This can be seen in the crucial role of the theory of class composition in autonomist ideas while even a cursory glance at most autonomist publications would see considerable emphasis on analysing how capitalist society works. The only difference is that the outcome of the analysis differs considerably from that of Nineham. Perhaps this is why it does not count as analysis and is of "little help".

"We are dreaming if we think we can change society without taking the state seriously"

The criticism that Holloway and autonomists do not take the state "seriously" is one that was also made at the WSF. Nineham seems to assume one can only take the state "seriously" if your ultimate aim is to seize state power. The Zapatistas, for example, are not interested in seizing state power, but you can't deny they take the state seriously and are interested in changing society (although I'm not suggesting the Zapatistas can necessarily be called autonomists). As mentioned above, autonomists do take the state seriously but their analysis of its role in society and, as a result, what strategy needs to be adopted differs from that of the SWP. They may be right, they may be wrong, but to accuse autonomists of not taking the state seriously either shows a complete misunderstanding of their work or a willingness to sling mud.

According to Nineham, autonomist writes such as Negri and Holloway believe that "the most activists should do is to create space for the spontaneity of the masses. This is an elitist and dangerous view. Any struggle will involve discussions about how to win. Some activists will put faith in persuading the authorities, others will understand the power relations at work... The heated debates that take place in any campaign show that strategy matters".

Ignoring Nineham's bizarre accusation of elitism, he assumes that a belief in the spontaneity of the masses means that autonomists are not concerned with discussions or heated debates about how to win. Many autonomists are concerned with these matters - as an example, look at the last chapters of "Empire" and you'll see Negri and Hardt listing what they see as the key demands the movement should be making (although this seemed to me the weakest part of the book, but then I can't claim to have understood all of it). Other autonomists are concerned about how to ensure these discussions take place - the idea of the circularity of struggles and the emphasis among some writers upon the Internet as a means of facilitating these discussions shows this. Anyway, I guess autonomists are as capable of heated debates about strategy as anyone.

Without going into too much detail, the rest of Nineham's article contains the odd comment that seems valid to me (e.g. the implications of Holloway's apparent rejection of any sort of classification), but plenty of writers more sympathetic to autonomism have already critiqued aspects of Italian autonomism in the 1970s more convincingly than Nineham manages to.

Finally (as Nineham hints at in one section and seems to forget about in others), its worth pointing out that autonomism is a relatively broad church in many ways. Holloway takes a different approach to Negri, Harry Cleaver looks at things differently to both of them and most autonomists would be critical of key aspects of all or some of the work of these writers. Negri is certainly no figurehead for the autonomist movement (his works have inspired many but have also been the source of considerable debate) and neither is Holloway or Cleaver or anyone else. It seems to me that there is, and always has been, plenty of room for criticism and generation of new ideas within autonomism and acceptance of criticisms from elsewhere - an example is the openness of Holloway to criticism in one of the recent editions of "Capital and Class" (well worth reading if you want to read more interesting criticisms of Holloway than the ones Nineham manages). However, simplistic accusations and mud-slinging as exhibited in Nineham's article doesn't help anyone progress their ideas at all.

Anyway, if you really want to know Holloway's views the best thing to do is read his book yourself (or at least read better critiques than those of Nineham)...

PS I'm by no means familiar will all that much about autonomism so am willing to stand corrected if I've made any errors...

Leam


Tactics & Strategies

25.08.2005 08:59


Activists can read 100's of books and can talk of their elequaint plans of taking power all day long, but the only way to measure the strength of their arguements is when their theory is put into action. We do not live in a revolutionary period but neither do we live in a period of demoralisation as witnessed in the 1980's/1990's.

Activists are coming together and are attempting to win over a wider section of the population into higher awareness and action as seen in the anti-capitalist and war movements. The best way therefore is to analysis tactics we have seen in recent time.Therefore it would be useful to look at how different groupings and organisations relate to the movement.

Lets take the recent G8 summit and examine how the two largest groups functioned and related to the movement at large ,mainly the orgainsed left and the automonists. The two groups had different ideas in the way they orgainsed for the G8, they had different tactics and therefore two different outcome.



You may be aware that during the recent G8 two campsites were organised. One in Craig Millar, a working class district in Edinburgh organised mainly by the SSP & G8 Alternatives the other in Stirling, mainly organised by G8 assembly and dissent.

Prior to the G8 summit, the G8 Alternatives had to tackle the local press who spread myths and scare stories that 1,000s of people would descend on Craig Millar and run a mock on their estate. Thankfully, members of the SSP managed to persuade the local people at Craig Millar to allow the campsite to go ahead. As a matter of fact, the council provided excellent facilities with showers (with hot water) , rubbish containers, bus shuttle service, clean toilets and the local people served breakfast at the community centre. On our arrival, the locals held a disco in the community centre and provided us with cheap drinks.



In contrast, Stirling camp was set up in a rush, with little support from the council. As a result there was very little in the means of toilet facilities and according to a source people suffered with dysentery.

During their stay, the Anarchist came up with the idea to go around Stirling with the aim to smash up Burger King and pizza hut. However, what the anarchist did not expect was that the local people may object to this kind of action in their town. The following day, a group of angry locals, mainly young men challenge the anarchist and threatened to beat the shit out of them if they did not leave their estate. The anarchist, rather embarrassed, went away with their tails between their legs. Isn’t it obvious that the local people would object to their shops being smashed (even if it is a Burger King)? Rather than getting the local people on their side they totally alienated the locals as a result from their behaviour.



An other incident occurred when some people on the Stirling camp decided to march around the estate chanting “whose streets, our streets!”. Unknown to them the estate happened to be a loyalist area and saw this type of march as a threat to them. Again they were asked to leave the estate.

These examples demonstrates what happens when you organise unplanned/ undemocratic action (did any of the anarchist even bothered to ask what the local thought of the action they had planned?). This is what you get when you get a bunch of self appointed leaders carrying out actions on other people’s behalf. What a bad impression they made on the locals, a discredit to our movement or what?

The sad thing about all of this, is that this was totally unnecessary, there was more than enough facilities at the Craig Miller site to accommodate all the people in the Stirling campsite, it was only because people in dissent did not want to share a campsite with G8 alternatives, their motives are still unknown, but I suspect that it had something to do with making sure people did not fraternalise with other people who stayed in the Craig Miller site.

red letter


Confusing Power, Leadership... & where to decide on consensu

25.08.2005 09:37

For those of you confused by the digging up and posting of this old SWP post; I believe it is because Neil has a lot of his posts hidden from the newswire are *promoting* a particular hierarchical organisation - that or becasue they are just being a set of links to promote his blog. This is why the posting has the introduction suggesting that the article is about political organisation being needed to chanllenge the State - political organisation in these terms directly and implied to only mean a hierarchical self-proclaimed vangardist organisation.

The use of implied, and not clearly defined terms, throughout the piece make it very hard to discuss in a constructive manor - people are not starting from the same point. To take only one line:
"Despite their differences, autonomist writers such as Negri and Holloway agree that all forms of political leadership are a menace."
Implication - all autonomist writers agree with Negri and Holloway. What are autonomist writers autonomous of?
Implication - all autonomous writers agree what forms of political leadership are. And they agree with Chris that the only form of political leadership is the one he is talking about (where you have a hierarchical structure that places people in 'positions of power') rather than more transient ones where people lead because they are trusted to do some particular thing well.
Conclusion - all automomists think all polical leadership is counterproductive in all situations.
Doh!

Finally going back to my initial point about challeging the consensus on promtion of particular parties - the place for that discussion is the imc-uk-features e-mail list. It can only create consensus using real participatory democracy. Neil is well aware of it's existence. If you don't take part in a constructive way you can't influence the consensus.

ekes


Theoretical bollocks versus everyday reality

25.08.2005 09:51

This article by the SWP is nonsense. The SWP are an important, even dominant organization within Respect. Certainly it was the local SWP group who campaigned in Brick Lane to get George Galloway elected. George Galloway is now an MP. He may be a critic of the government but unlike Sinn Fein MP's he is a fully active member of parliament, an institution that is wholly a creature of the British ruling class and state. Further, has life in Tower Hamlets suddenly become the workers paradise since George got elected? How many George Galloway's are going to have to be elected before a worker's state will have come about?

How can the SWP claim to have any objective view of the State when they actively participate in it, collaborate and legitimize it? It is like asking a drunk for an objective view of alcohol. The Labour Party and Communist Party both failed when they embraced the parliamentary road to socialism why should the SWP be any different? As Marx quotes history occurs first as tragedy and second as farce - nice to see the SWP are determined to prove Karl's point. Now that is what I call dedicated Marxists!

After 25 years of failure you would think that they would change their tune, it also begs the question how many successful revolutions were started by Antonio Gramsci?

Albert Meltzer


Hardt

25.08.2005 10:07

When Michael Hardt (co-author of Empire) visited London I attended a meeting where he spoke. He began by declaring (no less) that the anti-war movement “has failed”.

Contemplate the cheek of this.

Here is an American academic, speaking at the Institute of Contemporary Arts about 200 meters from Trafalgar Square the spiritual home of the world anti-war movement, in front of an audience of activists many of whom play leading roles in precisely the movement he decides has failed.

I think Michael Hardt is a nice guy. He means well and he wants to win. But if this is a leader of the anti-capitalist movement I am for finding new leaders. Needless to say he was told by none too few of the audience that the best thing he could do with his time would be to return to the US with renewed determination to reinvigorate a campaign that was then in the doldrums and try and inject some of the energy evident in the UK.

“Autonomism”.

Please.

Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt


To Red Letter

25.08.2005 10:12

Firstly, to suggest that "the only way to measure the strength of their arguments is when their theory is put into action" is rubbish. Sure, how events work out in practise is absolutely crucial but waiting until a theory is put into practice is not the only way of measuring the strength of arguments. If I come up with a patently absurb and possibly very dangerous theory do you wait until I actually get to practice it before you measure its strength?

Secondly, and more importantly, its pretty pointless to reduce the debate as to whether Holloway's conception of changing the world without taking power is correct or not to a cursory examination of the relative activities of two different groups on campsites at the recent G8 summit. Particularly when, as you presumably know, there is considerable debate as to the events which you speak about.

Leam


Jack Kane Camp vs Horizone

25.08.2005 10:53

Jack Kane Centre watchtower
Jack Kane Centre watchtower

Red Letter waxes wildly about life at the Jack Kane site.

"Prior to the G8 summit, the G8 Alternatives had to tackle the local press who spread myths and scare stories that 1,000s of people would descend on Craig Millar and run a mock on their estate. Thankfully, members of the SSP managed to persuade the local people at Craig Millar to allow the campsite to go ahead. As a matter of fact, the council provided excellent facilities with showers (with hot water) , rubbish containers, bus shuttle service, clean toilets and the local people served breakfast at the community centre. On our arrival, the locals held a disco in the community centre and provided us with cheap drinks."

He chooses to ignore the fact that the centre was fenced in a like a gulag, had a security company on duty 24 hours a day and was initially monitored by CCTV. He also fails to note that the campsite closed on the Thursday (I think) and that people then moved onto Stirling because it was impossible to stay there any longer.

He isn't keen on the Stirling operation at all - yet I stayed there, and whilst the camp was surrounded and cut off by police at various times, it was an exciting and pleasant place to be:

According to Red Letter:

"In contrast, Stirling camp was set up in a rush, with little support from the council. As a result there was very little in the means of toilet facilities and according to a source people suffered with dysentery."

Hmm, well the 3 (at most) cases of dyssentry happened whilst the camp was being set up - and the on site medics managed to isolate it immediately - thus when it was in full use with thousands of people on site there was no outbreak of mass dyssentry at all.

He goes on to say:

"During their stay, the Anarchist came up with the idea to go around Stirling with the aim to smash up Burger King and pizza hut."

If he's actually been on site and attended the action meetings, he would know that the decision was to march from the camp to the M9 and to blockade it. The police, in their infinite wisdom decided to kettle the march, and it was in the confusion thereafter that a group found itself inside the Springkerse Industrial Estate, where a Burger King and Pizza Hut were subject to renovations and improvements in an impromptu action. (Not as Red Letter claimed in an earlier post a MacShite - there isn't one there) - Nobody lives on the Springkerse - and personally I don't have even the remotest sadness that windows and signage were trashed (as an aside Burger King is owned by the Texas Pacific Group Venture Capitalists who also own Gate Gourmet - which they have been siphoning money from - leading to the current industrial dispute at Gate Gourmet)

" However, what the anarchist did not expect was that the local people may object to this kind of action in their town."

And not all the residents had that major problem with it - which is why Indymedia was trolled for weeks by liarrs claiming that private homes were trashed and that kids were attacked in cars (the car trashed was a cop car with cop hats in it......)

" The following day, a group of angry locals, mainly young men challenge the anarchist and threatened to beat the shit out of them if they did not leave their estate. The anarchist, rather embarrassed, went away with their tails between their legs. Isn’t it obvious that the local people would object to their shops being smashed (even if it is a Burger King)? Rather than getting the local people on their side they totally alienated the locals as a result from their behaviour."

Some locals were on side, and some weren't - Stirling is not filled with automatons who all think the same thing. Later that week a group of locals went to camp for a meal and to spend time with the activists.

"These examples demonstrates what happens when you organise unplanned/ undemocratic action (did any of the anarchist even bothered to ask what the local thought of the action they had planned?). This is what you get when you get a bunch of self appointed leaders carrying out actions on other people’s behalf. What a bad impression they made on the locals, a discredit to our movement or what?"

This says more about "Red Letter" than it does about reality. There were consultations with local people. I somewhat suspect that Red Letter's movement is the authoritaian Left - and that isn't the movement that was camped at Stirling - no doubt they were in the Gulag that he waxes so lyrically about.

Heres Schews write up about the Stirling site - they actually went there and know what they're talking about:

"Horizone

The Horizone in Stirling was, um, a sterling example (sorry) of
how people can organise and make the impossible happen. The police
leaned on a whole series of land-owners who offered us space and
they caved in one by one. The site we ended up with was just
outside of Stirling, miles from Edinburgh and the wrong side of
the Ochil Hills for Gleneagles. So some serious walking was on the
way for the happy campers.

Although the backdrop was beautiful there were a few drawbacks.
First it was surrounded on three sides by a notoriously
treacherous tidal river where many people had drowned, which later
helped the cops block us in. Second it was a landfill site with
potentially explosive methane seeping out, so no campfires or even
smoking allowed on the riverbank because of the fire danger!
Thinking about it it's a surprise the whole of Scotland wasn't
declared a fire risk with the amount of methane seeping out of
certain celebrity orifices!

The site only turned up only two weeks before the summit, leaving
a few people with the mammoth job of making it liveable. Despite
the obstacles people pulled together and did without sleep for
days to make the camp not only a harmonious living space for some
three thousand protesters from all over Europe but an effective
base for action. A staggering achievement. It was truly inspiring
to see people voluntarily tackling logistical nightmares. The crew
even dealt well with the emergency caused by the police stopping
the shit-pumping trucks from emptying the portaloos for days
during their siege of the camp.

There were fifteen kitchens, all working hard to keep everyone
fed. Brighton's Anarchist Teapot and Rampenplan, a Dutch kitchen,
joined forces to form an uber-kitchen feeding a thousand people a
day. Throughout the week there were medics and legal support
tents, the Indymedia tent with free internet access, and the
24-hour 'tranquility team' (who kept an eye on the cops and any
on-site conflicts).

It was also a place where we could organise under pressure and
meet like-minded people without having to split ideological hairs.
The focus on direct action caused a remarkable chaotic cohesion.
However in some ways the strengths of the ghetto worked against
us. There were 60,000 people at the G8 Alternatives rally being
'entertained' by tired old rockers and being hoodwinked into
thinking they were making a difference. Meanwhile a few thousand
of us almost stopped the summit and outran, outsmarted, and in
some cases outfought an enormous police presence. Horizone was too
far away for the curious to wander into, apart from some Stirling
locals, most of whom were pleasantly surprised. It would have been
nice if more people from outside the 'scene' had the chance to
participate in this mostly successful living experiment, but it
would also have made planning actions more complicated than it
already was.

Red Letter drones on:

"The sad thing about all of this, is that this was totally unnecessary, there was more than enough facilities at the Craig Miller site to accommodate all the people in the Stirling campsite, it was only because people in dissent did not want to share a campsite with G8 alternatives, their motives are still unknown, but I suspect that it had something to do with making sure people did not fraternalise with other people who stayed in the Craig Miller site."

There were Dissent people on the Jack Kane - and several I spoke to found it awful - I visited the site and it was pretty empry and unexciting AND CLOSED BEFORE THE ACTIONS WERE OVER.

Red letter doesn't mind lliving in a fenced in Gulag with security guards, CCTV and fucking watchtowers but I do.

Give me the freedom and creativity of the autonomous and creatively organised Stirling site anyday - although next time leave the English bobbies at home ............................





Horizontal


The importance of paving when giving speeches

25.08.2005 12:20

To Memory hole catcher's mitt:

If Hardt thinks the anti-war movement has failed why is he meant to tone down or change this message because he is near Trafalgar Square and speaking to anti-war activists? Would you prefer that he said something he didn't believe in or avoided the main point he wanted to make just because of the location of the speech and the nature of the audience?

Don't get me wrong, Hardt may have entirely failed to justify his argument that the anti-war movement failed (in the absence of any information its hard to tell). But you can hardly complain about his saying what he believes, particularly when it sounds like he had to show a modicum of guts to stand up and say what the audience didn't want to hear. If you want to go to meetings where people only say what they think people want to hear I'm sure you can find plenty of opportunities in various groupings...

Besides, I'm pretty sure Hardt wouldn't want to be the leader of any anti-capitalist movement and certainly would criticise people who are on the look-out for new leaders. I'd also guess Hardt would be clear that he is not representative of all autonomists and that other autonomists may disagree with many of his viewpoints - autonomism can't be judged solely on Michael Hardt.

PS Why is Trafalgar Square the "spiritual home of the anti-war movement"? I'm not so sure if activists elsewhere in the world would agree. Why does there have to be a spiritual home anyway? Why should Hardt have to avoid criticising the anti-war movement because he is near a very large area of paving with some statues in it?

Leam


More interesting critiques of Holloway

25.08.2005 12:47

I'm a great fan of Holloway's work. For those interested, do a google search for Holloway + Zapatistas + anticapitalism and you'll find some interesting stuff.

However, although Nineham says only what you'd expect him to, the importance of critique and debate shouldn't be underestimated. There are some really interesting critiques of Holloway's 'Change the World Without Taking Power' in the issue before last of Capital & Class:  http://www.cseweb.org.uk/issue.shtml?x=101767

For a summary of Holloway's argument in Change the World, see the 'Twelve Theses' summary that he wrote:  http://www.commoner.org.uk/04holloway2.pdf

qwe


Further comments on Stirling Camp

25.08.2005 12:59

I was at the Stirling Camp, and if Red Letter had even the remotest idea of what happened he would realise that there was a whole load of different people staying there with a range of different views and tactics, but all opposed to the G8 - not just anarchists, there was also people from the student newtork People and Plant. The anarchists only plan wasn't just to go smash up Burger King, some anarchists went to the M9 had to fight past police to reach their goal and a couple of corporate targets got trashed. Other people staying at the camp did a whole host of actions and bloackades, some went to Edinburgh and Crieff to stop delegates in their hotels, other blocked the roads around Gleneagles and myself (an anarchist) and a load of my friends and other people (who were largely anarchist) hiked overnight and blockaded the A9 near Gleneagles. Other anarchists also went to Gleneagles to try and get into the summit.

There's a lot that was wrong with the whole anti-G8 work, but don't bemoan other people's efforts Red Letter - especially when your knowledge is so completely wrong!

A few of my friends stayed at Jack Kane and thought it was OK there was a large anarchist presence. Don't present everything as a simplistic right or wrong issue all the time Red Letter - leave that to the Daily Mail.

William


handbags at dawn

25.08.2005 13:06

Chris's article is from this weeks socialist worker, why indymedia has a problem with articles from there being posted here i don't know as they seem to have no problem if Schnews do it (oh sorry I forgot there not 'hierarchical' of course duh!)

It's a political argument, and the childish replies only show how all over the shop and clueless most autonomists are and it's worth looking at what people like Negri actually say only 5 years ago they were rapturous over the multitudes. Now it is "global aristocracies" that they are wooing. To be sure, there is always the possibility that the black bloc and the Mitterands of the world might make common cause:

"Taking the lead from the governments of the global South in this manner is one way for the aristocracies to orient their project of the renewal of productive forces and energies in the global economic system.

"A second source of orientation is provided by the multitude of voices that protest against the current state of war and the present form of globalization. These protestors in the streets, in social forums and in NGOs not only present grievances against the failures of the present system, but also numerous reform proposals ranging from institutional arrangements to economic policies.

"It is clear that these movements will always remain antagonistic to the imperial aristocracies and, in our view, rightly so. It might be in the aristocracies’ interest, however, to consider the movements as potential allies and resources for formulating today’s global policies."

full:  http://www.globalagendamagazine.com/2004/antonionegri.asp

In a thoroughly Machiavellian manner, Hard and Negri counsel that the movements can be "potential allies" and "resources" to the aristocrats. Somehow this smacks of the attitude of traditional liberalism more than anything else.

And please give it up on the Zapatisitas, of course everyone supports them, but what is the reality of the situation there, surrounded by the army, not able to achieve what they want, in fact Commandante Esther (yes commandante very horizontal!) only asking (not even demanding!) that the government grant them the reforms they wanted when they came to Mexico city a few years back- where they blow the opportunity they had to unite with the mexican working class who came to welcome them

as for the dissent stuff, well I'm sorry but the politics is no different from Prague, same old, same old the world changes but not autnomist politics! Which is why it attracts the same mainly white, drop-out, phd type people who think squat living is the ultimate in radical chic.

And let's not forget that the Autonomists in the Edinburgh camp, got security guards(!!!) to move other activists out of their 'autonomous' space (marked out with a bit of tape)

ha - you couldn't make it up!

truthhseeker


Hardt

25.08.2005 13:33

Hi Leam

“You can hardly complain about [Hardt] saying what he believes.”

Would this principle of not complaining about people saying what they believe extend to Hitler? No? Then let us discard it.

“…particularly when it sounds like he had to show a modicum of guts to stand up and say what the audience didn't want to hear.”

Hardt did not have the courage of his own convictions. Faced with polite but authoritative correction from the audience Hardt rolled over and claimed that he did not ‘really’ believe the anti-war movement had failed, that we had partially misunderstood him, and that he was only said it to stimulate debate. Nobody was convinced. It was clear to everyone that Hardt had misjudged his audience. This is no crime. Everyone makes mistakes. But it tells you something about the political chemistry of autonomist thinkers. To put it bluntly they are confused. I was honestly shocked that THIS was the co-author of a book that has dominated autonomist thinking and sections of the anti-capitalist movement worldwide. He is a terribly nice guy. He is good looking, warm, passionate and articulate. We need more of that. The tragedy is that autonomism has left him politically as sea as it always does. He honestly has no idea what is required to stop the war or, for that matter, to overthrow the system. And he admitted this.

“Hardt wouldn't want to be the leader of any anti-capitalist movement and certainly would criticise people who are on the look-out for new leaders.”

This is dishonest of you. You are well aware that only an idiot would elevate a leader above the ideas they profess. Your implied suggestion that I do is a poor substitute for a argument.

“Hardt…is not representative of all autonomists…autonomism can't be judged solely on Michael Hardt.”

The timeless defence. Its strength can be measured in precise proportion to its meaninglessness.

Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt


A good debate by all.

25.08.2005 13:56

Thank you everyone - this is a really good debate and the only and sole reason for my posting.

I am not a member of the SWP but nor do I ever adopt a sectarian attitude to them or any other group or autonamists (is this spelt right?). If we can value and listen to each others opinions we can learn and begin to challange the ruling elite. My own view is that you do need organisation and leadership to do this and you do need to have an alternative structure / society to offer working people for the movement to build around and support.

The article was posted in SW ( I shant spell it out, I know how much it upsets some of you!) on 27th August 2005 edition, this weeks edition - as I am not an expert on these ideas, it was a new article as far as I was concerned. Perhaps the ideas have been around but this has been a good discussion and I for one have learned more about autonamous ideas.


Neil Williams
P.S I do not post links to my blog to advertise, I post them to offer links to information and knowledge that can assist people to get involved in changing society - if they want to adopt autonamous ideas , thats fine by me - anything is better that passivity.If anyone wants to send me an article on anarchy or autonomy I would be happy to put it on my blog alongside other views.

Neil Williams
- Homepage: http://fightbackuk.blogspot.com/


Power to the People

25.08.2005 14:17

Power To The People
John Lennon


Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

Say you want a Revolution
We better get on right away
Well you get on your feet
And out on the street

Singing power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

A million workers working for nothing
You better give 'em what they really own
We got to put you down
When we come into town

Singing power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

I gotta ask you comrades and brothers
How do you treat you own woman back home
She got to be herself
So she can free herself

Singing power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on
Now, now, now, now

Oh well, power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

Yeah, power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people
Power to the people, right on

Ronaele


Apologies for boring people to death with this...

25.08.2005 15:32

Hi Memory,

I said: “You can hardly complain about [Hardt] saying what he believes.”

You replied: "Would this principle of not complaining about people saying what they believe extend to Hitler? No? Then let us discard it. "

Reply: Are you seriously arguing that peoples speeches at meetings shouldn't reflect their beliefs? My point is that you can't complain if someone turns up and (horrendously taking no notice of the fact he is near Trafalgar Square) criticises the anti-war movement. If he thinks it has failed he should say so. Your argument about Hitler doesn't make any sense either. Of course I'd argue that Hitler should have stood up at meetings and said what he believed as opposed to saying things he didn't believe merely to keep his audience sweet (avoiding any arguments about providing platforms) - that doesn't mean I wouldn't oppose what he was saying though.

Regarding the actual debate - as I made clear earlier, I wasn't there and can't comment on what happened. You thought Hardt underperformed and backtracked and he may well have. Interestingly though, you say that "he honestly has no idea what is required to stop the war or, for that matter, to overthrow the system. And he admitted this". Seems to me that Hardt was being honest (Holloway pretty much says the same thing). Perhaps the key point is why anyone should listen to yet another "leader" telling us that they somehow have the miraculous solution. I'd guess Hardt may be quite happy to leave the overthrow of the system to those who will do the overthrowing and perhaps play his part at a small level in this. Might be worth noting that Hardt and Holloway do appear a touch more laissez-faire than other autonomists.

I said: “Hardt wouldn't want to be the leader of any anti-capitalist movement and certainly would criticise people who are on the look-out for new leaders.”

You said: "This is dishonest of you. You are well aware that only an idiot would elevate a leader above the ideas they profess. Your implied suggestion that I do is a poor substitute for a argument."

Reply: Not quite sure why you accuse me of being dishonest. You said that "I think Michael Hardt is a nice guy. He means well and he wants to win. But if this is a leader of the anti-capitalist movement I am for finding new leaders." I merely commented that I don't think Hardt would set himself up as a leader.

I said: “Hardt…is not representative of all autonomists…autonomism can't be judged solely on Michael Hardt.”

You said: "The timeless defence. Its strength can be measured in precise proportion to its meaninglessness"

Reply: What? Seems to me you can either say Hardt is representative of autonomists, he is not representative of autonomists or have a position somewhere in the middle. If I was to criticise orthodox Marxism, for example, solely on the basis on a reading of Lenin, Gramsci or any other single writer I'd, quite rightly, get laughed out of town. A brief reading of autonomist writings will show that there is a lot more to autonomism than Michael Hardt!

PS What possible relevance does whether Hardt (or other activists) are good-looking have? Is this the same as your earlier stuff about Trafalgar Square??

Leam


If the world is to be changed...

25.08.2005 16:21

...the power is to be taken by all Mankind and the state is to be smashed.

Michelle


reply to Leam

25.08.2005 17:11

In reply to Leam

You're missing the point. Whether you like it or not we all hold a theory on how the system works and how best to change it, this is a fact of life.

The point is we have different ideas about how we can change things. If you believe in spontanious action (personaly I think this can be a good thing in some cases) then great, but you cannot hide it is a theory.

When we talk about the best way to challenge the G8 we have different approaches therefore it is important to anaylsis the differing tactics one uses.

The campsite arguement may not be the best example. I just wanted to expose the weakness of having two campsites instead of having one big one. If we had one big campsite we could have had more debates about the course of action we needed to undertake at the G8. I believe we should have had one campsite as you can guess.

Perhaps I should have pointed out to the tactics of blockages that dissent advocated. I am not against blockages per say but this tactic utterly failed, it did nothing, absolutely nothing.It probably just demolarised activists because there was soo much expectation that this tactic would close down the G8 summit, dissent in effect lied to activists by saying that it would close down the G8-it did'nt even come near and all of the activists energy was wasted.

It would have been better if we debated on how the combined forces could have been used. Instead we got 1 group doing one thing and another doing something else- the truth is we were devided on that day, instead of pulling down all the fences in gleneagle we only managed to pull down 1 piece of fencing. I hope you are pleased with your so called rightous ways.

Lets learn from the mistakes and next time lets have some joint action .

A side effect of demolarisation is that a small group of people start taking action on behalf of the rest, whether this is anarchists smashing windows or suicide bombers blowing up working class people.






red letter


Quick comment (for once)

26.08.2005 07:35

To Red Letter.

I think we both agree that how theories work their way out in practice is of vital importance. My point, is you re-read my original reply, was merely that you that can critique theories without having to put them into practice, something you did not allow for in your original post. A pretty minor point.

Yeah, you're right that we need to analyse different tactics. My point was simply that I don't know far we can get in a debate about autonomism by bringing up one very small example (the relative campsite arrangements of two groups at a G8 summit). Yeah, there are probably important lessons to be learned if people examine what happened, but I'm not sure to what extent this example on its own can lead to judgement as to the benefits or otherwise of autonomism. It may give some very small pointers, but there are countless better examples to use to examine autonomism if you're really interested in examining how the theories of autonomism translate into practice. Don't get me wrong, I think the campsite question is a subject that's very worthy of debate in its own right but it seems to me (perhaps I'm mistaken though) that it's been introduced more as a way of rehashing arguments about the G8 summit than as a serious attempt to understand autonomism - hence my reluctance to get involved in discussions either way as part of this particular discussion.

Leam


Supplementary to Red Letter's Comment

26.08.2005 10:33


I wouldn't agree entirely with a couple of points made by Red Letter in his last comment.

He wrote:
"A side effect of demolarisation is that a small group of people start taking action on behalf of the rest, whether this is anarchists smashing windows or suicide bombers blowing up working class people."

I think more than just demolaristion motivates individual terrorism and damaging property which are symbols of rotten-capitalism. The IRA bomb that blew up the City of London killed noone but could be viewed as a very effective tactic move in the War between them and the British State. it is always tragic when innocent lives are lost through war and terrorism.

As he is right to say that the camp-site issue is not a good one, but saying Dissent leaders in affect lied is stretching it a bit far.



Ed Campbell


To the Autonomist

26.08.2005 11:38

“Are you seriously arguing that peoples speeches at meetings shouldn't reflect their beliefs?”

Wrong again. I am dismissing your suggestion that peoples beliefs (sincere or otherwise) should not be criticized. Which is what you suggested when you said;

“You can hardly complain about [Hardt] saying what he believes.”

I will complain as much as I feel like. Without seeking your permission or approval. Hardt talked bollocks and it produced a chorus of reasonable complaint. If you don’t like that bad luck.

“Of course I'd argue that Hitler should have stood up at meetings and said what he believed as opposed to saying things he didn't believe merely to keep his audience sweet”

I am not opposed to people telling the truth. But you knew this already, yes? I merely disagreed with Hardt’s assertion that the anti-war movement has failed. If you were more honest you would admit that my objection is what upsets you. Rather than talking metaphysical bollocks in an attempt to paint me as someone who questions Hardt’s right to say what he believes.

“Perhaps the key point is why anyone should listen to yet another "leader" telling us that they somehow have the miraculous solution.”

The presumption that your jaded experiences of “leaders” should serve as a warning to others says more about the political circles you have mixed in than it does about anything else. I, and a lot of other people, are very happy with the leadership of the anti-war movement. If we weren’t we would elect new officer holders at the STWC National Conference. They never tell people they have miraculous solutions, if you cared to listen.

“I'd guess Hardt may be quite happy to leave the overthrow of the system to those who will do the overthrowing and perhaps play his part at a small level in this.

Except that he does not confine himself as you pretend he does. He projects his views through his prolific writing the entire length and breadth of our Movement. So you have guessed again, and guess wrong (again).

“Seems to me you can either say Hardt is representative of autonomists, he is not representative of autonomists or have a position somewhere in the middle.

Hardt is a leading autonomist thinker and activist and represents a significant element of autonomist thinking. He is very representative by definition. I am amazed you would attempt the snake oil salesman trick of “that’s not My autonomism”. Nobody will reward that sort of cowardice in a discussion. You would be better of saying “I disagree with autonomism” or “I disagree with Hardt” rather than trying to say “The leading thinkers in autonomism are not representative of autonomism”.

“What possible relevance does whether Hardt (or other activists) are good-looking have? Is this the same as your earlier stuff about Trafalgar Square??”

You need to lighten up.

Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt


Addition to last comment

26.08.2005 11:53

Just to clarify.

I don’t believe Dissent ever really claimed, or believed, they would close down the G8. Of course there were rallying calls in their material to do this. So this is not a case about telling lies or deceiving.

If you want to argue that point then you must also accept that the Stop The War Coalition lied to its "members" too, because they didn't stop the war.

I agree that Dissent wanted their own site, but I cannot confirm that they prevented say, the SW* or other groups from staying there. I don’t think they encouraged it, probably for the reasons red Letter gives. But I am sure the SW* and the rest of G* alternatives.

I do not know what, if any, negotiation went on between the two groups about a common site.

I believe Dissent thought they would attract far more people than they did to the camp, and to their conference/workshops in Edinburgh. But the British autonomous/anarchist/anti-authoritarian scene is far smaller then on mainland Europe, and historically quite fragmented.

However, the Dissent network has done something positive by pulling them together and attracting a new layer to the wider movement, though not large numbers. This is an important development, and Red Letter acknowledges that. This reaching out to a wider community is happening and is a very significant development.

If you look at the Evian G8, the large camps in France allowed everyone to mix. Although there was a line of trees separating the two sides of the movement. However, I had a tent in the automatons camp and next to me were tented a couple of Brit SWP lads. So compare that to what happened in Edinburgh, things could have been better.

There are those who want to keep the two-sides apart. I have come across a few. I am not sure what there motivation is: probably political purity or some such nonsense.

Dissent had a particular idea about how their camp should be run, and I think that this very alternative experiment in living communally is important. They have built up a lot of experience and skills (such as in sustainable living etc) to do this sort of thing, from which G8 alternatives and others could learn from.


Now that the anti-authorities are working better together perhaps they may now have the confidence to work a little closer with the "socialist" left in the Anti-capitalist and global justice movement.

The important point is that Dissent didn’t want to communicate with G8-Alternatives. I cannot comment whether G8-Alts wanted to communicate with Dissent.

I was keen for Dissent to support the Demo to Gleneagles. They didn't much, although there was some effort by a few to do so in the end. Red Letter is right to say the Blockades didn't work. They just prevented the public moving around and prevented a lot of people getting to the Gleneagles demo. This was disastrous and a complete mess.

That demo was the most effective protest of the entire event outside of the MPH march which I cannot comment on because I did not attend it. It was obvious it was the key one. If Dissent had got their act together another 5,0000, at the very least, could have attended and as Red Letter states, and pulled down more than just one little section of the fence. The police took advantage of the conflict between Dissent and G* and the different approaches, and used lies and propaganda to keep protesters away that day. They public ally announced that the March had been cancelled several times. And the motorway was blockaded too. The police loved this because they just kept the motorway closed to stop coaches and cars getting to Gleneagles for the Demo. What a disaster!

I have no clout or influence in Dissent, even though it was my idea to set it up, and I motivated the setting up of it in 2003. I think some of its leaders imagined they could dominate the G8 protests. They did not. In many ways they failed, but there were some positive things which no doubt will be highlighted in the book they are paying £3000 to publish about the G8 Edinburgh.

I am sure much can be learned from what happened. So many different groups came together and produced something that was overall very positive, despite the huge police presence and their repressive measures, lies and propaganda.

It was very positive for the wide Global Justice and Anticapitalist Movement, Positive for the individua groups involved, and sent a constructive message to the pople of Britain, highlighted the lies and deceit of G* leaders which rippled around the world.

Edward Campbell


Warning :more metaphysical bollocks

26.08.2005 14:36

You start off by saying “I am dismissing your suggestion that peoples beliefs (sincere or otherwise) should not be criticized. Which is what you suggested when you said; “You can hardly complain about [Hardt] saying what he believes.””

As should be clear, I was not suggesting at all that you should not criticise anyone’s opinions. Saying “you can hardly complain about [Hardt] saying what he believes” is in no way the same as saying “you can hardly complain about [the content of] what Hardt says”. I'm not quite sure how you managed to get the total wrong end of the stick and assume I was saying something I'm not.

Your original statement spoke of the “cheek” of Michael Hardt daring to say the anti-war movement had failed when near “Trafalgar Square the spiritual home of the world anti-war movement, in front of an audience of activists many of whom play leading roles in precisely the movement he decides has failed.” Quite simply your original post didn’t make any cogent criticism whatsoever of what Hardt said (which would have been interesting) and merely pulled him up for daring to tell an anti-war movement he felt that their movement had failed. I was merely pointing out that the view portrayed in this post that Hardt shouldn’t have had the “cheek” to do this was, in my opinion, wrong. You’ve obviously got the freedom to criticise who you like and I’ve never said or implied that you don’t.

In line with this you say you “merely disagreed with Hardt’s assertion that the anti-war movement has failed”. Your original post, if you re-read it, was an accusation that Hardt was “cheeky” in making this claim to an audience of anti-war activists followed up by a couple of comments along the lines that he was told to come home and re-energise the US anti-war movement. Your second post, however, did have at least some critique in it (which you’re more than welcome to make and I was interested in reading).

“If you were more honest you would admit that my objection is what upsets you.” If you assume, and I may be wrong, that I think that Hardt was right to call the anti-war movement a failure (if that’s what he did) then I’d actually probably have argued against Hardt. I’ve repeatedly said that Hardt doesn’t represent all of autonomist thinking yet you seem to assume I’d defend him on saying the anti-war movement failed without any evidence. Disagreeing with him on his interpretation of the anti-war movement doesn’t mean I can’t defend him against your original charge that he was being “cheeky” in saying what he did.

You said: The presumption that your jaded experiences of “leaders” should serve as a warning to others says more about the political circles you have mixed in than it does about anything else. I, and a lot of other people, are very happy with the leadership of the anti-war movement. If we weren’t we would elect new officer holders at the STWC National Conference. They never tell people they have miraculous solutions, if you cared to listen.

Reply: I was no way implying that people in the anti-war movement were unhappy with the STWC leadership. I know enough of them to know that is not the case. I also certainly wasn’t implying that they or all leaders say they have miraculous solution. Yeah, I disagree with you about the role and nature of leaders but I’m quite happy to recognise that for my view to become current I’ll have to persuade an awful lot of people…

You say that Hardt “does not confine himself as you pretend he does. He projects his views through his prolific writing the entire length and breadth of our Movement. So you have guessed again, and guess wrong (again).”

Michael Hardt writes books for a living. Of course he projects his views (although I’d imagine he’d be very surprised to hear that they have penetrated “the entire length and breadth of our Movement”) – nowhere that I’m aware of does autonomism suggest that people should keep their views to themselves and not make them known. However, I’d be very surprised in Hardt would set himself up in any way as anything approaching being a “leader” of a movement. I also didn’t say that Michael Hardt currently confines himself or pretend that whatsoever. I’d be delighted to know where you got that idea from. Why would I suggest, in the context of a report of his addressing a public meeting, that he confines himself? I was merely suggesting that the fact he admits not knowing how to overthrow the system is perhaps one of many reasons why he would not set himself up as a leader of any revolution.

”Hardt is a leading autonomist thinker and activist and represents a significant element of autonomist thinking. He is very representative by definition. I am amazed you would attempt the snake oil salesman trick of “that’s not My autonomism”. Nobody will reward that sort of cowardice in a discussion. You would be better of saying “I disagree with autonomism” or “I disagree with Hardt” rather than trying to say “The leading thinkers in autonomism are not representative of autonomism”.

To be absolutely frank I think that argument is complete rubbish. There are circumstances where you can say that one person is fairly, but probably never totally, representative of a movement (Stalin and Stalinism for example) and others where you cannot. As in the example I gave earlier, if I tried to dismiss Marxism solely on the views of, for example, Karl Kautsky, I would get laughed out of town. Kautsky may have been an important Marxist but in no way could he be called representative of Marxism in any total way.

If you look at my messages you’ll see my comments on the issue are that “Hardt…is not representative of all autonomists…autonomism can't be judged solely on Michael Hardt” and in another, “a brief reading of autonomist writings will show that there is a lot more to autonomism than Michael Hardt!” Again, replace “autonomism” with "traditional Marxism" and "Hardt" with “Kautsky” (or almost any other single traditional Marxist thinker) and see if you still disagree with my comments. I’ve nowhere said that analysing Hardt isn’t an important part of judging autonomism, but merely that you can’t come to a judgement solely on this alone. I really can’t see why you have a problem with this.

It’s fair to say that there are large chunks of autonomist thinking that disagree with some of the best-known concepts that Hardt and Negri have come up with, such as the concept of “Empire” and, perhaps to a lesser extent, “the multitude”.

Leam


Yawn

26.08.2005 15:12

The only thing that you got right in your post was the title.

What a load of hair-splitting wankery you have posted.

It was very cheeky of Hardt to presume to declare that the anti-war movement "has failed". And, being an intelligent man, he rapidly understood this and sought to back track. It was not very graceful but hey, if you put your foot in your mouth its never pretty.

I dont need to justify calling it cheeky. It was precisely that. He had a damn cheek coming out with such crap. It was not possible to defend and he did not defend it. He leaned something instead. The only person that has a problem with any of it is you.

All of that is small beer. What IS significant is this is a leading autonomist. Completely at SEA when it comes to analysing the situation. What does that tell you? As I always say, once you rule out Marxism the world is a very confusing place.

Leam, come out of the closet. Admit your political beliefs rather than posting tiddley winks about "I might argue this if..." and "I might say that if..."

And as for Marxists getting it wrong...I cant guarantee with they will always get it right, but without Marxism I can guarantee you will loose against capitalism every time.

Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt


Hopefully final reply

27.08.2005 09:47

I'll keep this as short as I possibly can.

Your original post accused Hardt of being cheeky for daring to accuse the anti-war movement of having failed - an accusation made worse, in your eyes, that he was in the "spiritual home of the anti-war movement". My argument against this has consistently been he's free to say what he believes in and, if he believes the anti-war movement failed he has a right to say that.

Your second post was somewhat more interesting in that it actually contained some (but not much) meaningful information to give some idea about why you think Hardt was wrong. However, this doesn't negate the fact your original post made a ridiculous assertion and was nonsense.

After this you then decide to interpret what I wrote as, among other things, saying:

1) That I was defending Hardt primarily because I agreed with him the anti-war movement failed.
2) That I was saying that you shouldn't be allowed to criticise Michael Hardt for his statement.

You have shown no evidence that I have said either of these things for the reason that there is no evidence at all. None of my messages say or suggest either of these things.

In fact, I would disagree with anyone who said the anti-war movement "failed" (if Hardt did say it in that way) and have stated this previously - I think things are a good deal more complex than that. As the above example shows, I actually disagree with some things that Hardt has (reportedly) said and I have consistently said that there is more to autonomism than Michael Hardt - suggesting I'd be unlikely myself to automatically defend anything he says. If (and it is an "if") Michael Hardt went and backtracked on his original comment for no good reason (the point of your second post) of course I'd criticise him for this and have given no suggestion I wouldn't.

On the point of Hardt's representativeness, you have again failed to come up with an answer to why Michael Hardt (whose contribution to autonomism is important, but probably not crucial) can be said to be anymore representative of autonomist Marxism than someone like Kautsky is of "orthodox" Marxism.

You find my arguments hair-splitting or metaphysical bollocks? I hate to say it (well, not really actually) but the process of having discussions about politics should move beyond accusing people of saying things without there being any evidence. Perhaps you want everything to be nice and simple and black and white with no complex arguments about details, but that's not how these things often work. If that means my arguments seem "hair-splitting" to you or "wankery" I'm not really sorry at all. Next time you enter into a discussion on Indymedia or anywhere else perhaps you can read someone else's arguments without jumping to wildly false conclusions about what they are saying...

Leam


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