I ackowledge your support for our troops and wanting to bring them home, for that myself and others are greatly thankful. However, have you looked at the demographics of who actually turns up to these events. The old and bold/veterans, families of the serving troops currently on operations and on home duties and perhaps a small slice of the general public. Surely it is the politicians and consequently the MOD that needs to hear your voice. Are they going to be there at the Tattoo? most likely not!!!!

The weapons of war are also devices to protect our soldiers and in the case of a re-emerging Taliban, devices for protecting a fledgling freed country from the grip of an fanatical oppressive force that is targeting children, women and men alike. The tattoo is not a show of weapons and killing, it is a time honoured traditional family day out where the demonstrations of soldiering skills are only a very small part of the show as a whole. Money raised for charity is also a part of it. Perhaps your demonstrations would be more effective if you aimed at the manufacturers of the weapons systems, the government and MOD.

Good luck in voicing your anti-war protests (that could be interpretted, not intentionally, as anti-British Army, in one of the largest garrison towns in the UK !!)

What a ridiculous idea. 90% of the people at this show will be-
a. Serving soldiers.
b. Family of serving soldiers (most of whom will have husbands in Afghanistan)
c. Ex-serving soldiers.

All you will achieve is to piss all these people off for spoiling what is in essence a family day out. These people have absolutely NO say over UK foreign policy. You are going to be in the wrong place frankly. Where you should be is outside No 10 in London or at an International Arms Fair - but hey your choice - see you there!

As an Army wife I need to say I agree 100% with the other 2 comments. Yes we want our husbands back and some of us (myself included) think war is wrong. This event isn't going to have the people your looking to get attention from there. Army wives and families will be there with there young kids! I know Army lads themselves with there family are going as a way to spend a day with there family. These are the people your protesting to get home, Let them enjoy themselves when they are home!

I'm afraid that those of you trying to talk sense over this matter are on a hiding to nothing. The clue is in the very first line of the "article" where thay quite categorically state that they are appealing to "anti military" groups. I can't imagine any members of such groups being overly concerned about spoiling a day out organised for the families of members of the Armed Forces - indeed I imagine that the opposite holds true and that many of them will derive a great deal of pleasure from upsetting forces families. "Anti Military" is anti military. It does exactly what it says on the tin and no amount of dressing it up in "anti war" clothing will change that. By targetting this appeal at such groups the organisers are making their real feelings quite obvious.

So while the brave soldiers of Colchester are getting shot at and getting killed on Operations. You think think youre fickle protest is going to acheive anything.Think about the poor wifes and partners left behind and how you will alienate an institution trying to do a decent job.Muppets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And how long do you think this protest will last? I give it no more than 10 minutes. I'm more than sure than they don't mind putting their skills to work but do you really think that the military personnel want to be there over being at home with their families? Why don't you protest at the heart of the matter at Downing Street or Whitehall. You really show that you have not thought this through.

 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=42088#759176 explains where all the soljas and wannabee soljas are coming from.

Maybe they're hoping for lots of sign-ups :D

Thanks for posting the link to arrse - now try an make a coherent argument against their point.

The person publicly calling for action is a tactical genius ranking alongside the greats like General Custer. I imagine the Sioux would have loved someone to warn them in advance of the impending attack on them.

It will be interesting to see just how successful Custers Last stand looks incomparison to this ill-concieved action now EVERYBODY knows at least one bunch of doomed incompetents plan to try to disrupt a major event full of extremely unsympathetic families and staged by professionals. Idiots. Wrong target, wrong strategy.

And would Mr Anthony Blair and his (rather arrogant) chums take any notice...erm, no! Most people have the brains to realise this, so demonstrators will look like total fools - at best - as just about everybody but them will probably understand this simple truth.

To those sincere but niave activists thinking of going, I'd echo the above suggestions to demonstrate in the right place - outside No.10 (where ploicy is made), outside arms manufacturers (where weapons are made), or at international arms fairs (where they are sold), rather than an entertainment-based day out for history enthusiasts and the families of servicemen who don't actually have any choice as to where they are sent.

Alas, not for one minute do I believe that rational thought comes into any of this for those involved.

Still, just think of the publicity when a group of hate filled, screaming, "peace activists" are pictured next to a crying child at a families fun day. Headline writers dream come true I would imagine.

So your there to make the children cry as your comment above clearly states, you want to get your picture in the paper but like everyone else says THINK..... Think this one through you can get your face in the paper and make an impression at the right place not some army event where the only thing your going to get written about yourselves is how much of a tit you have made of yourselfs. I hope it all goes well for you but can't see people really coming for I believe all people serious about this issue will know it's not going to get anything done and only make things harder for them.

[I am speaking ENTIRELY from a personal point of view here, NOT as an official representative of the English Civil War Society or the Socialist Party].

Well, as a committed peace activist and active socialist of long standing, I must say I have to concur with the majority of the posts above condemning the proposed form of action.

Some of us have an interest in things military that does not necessarily translate into glorifying war. I am an English Civil War re-enactor myself, and I see no conflict (no pun intended) between my chosen hobby, and the manner in which I carry it out, and my political and peace campaigning activity. I spent my childhood yomping around various military museums and airshows, etc. with my father, and it hardly turned me into a raging imperialist (quite the opposite, in fact).

If you are really concerned that this event is a glorification of war, a small delegation OUTSIDE of the festival in the area execrcising our democratic right of protest by peacefully and politely leafleting/stallholding from an anti-war perspective would be a far more effective "intervention" - but then maybe that wouldn't be as exciting as physically disrupting an event, would it?

I'm also afraid that, speaking from experience, I have little faith in this purported "non-violent" methods being UNIVERSALLY adhered to. No doubt many people intending to take part in the infiltration will refuse to act violently, but equally I would anticipate that a significant number will go ahead and see it as an opportunity for a good scrap (and several non-politicals will come along specifically for that reason. I've seen that happen far too many times for my liking).

I have done, and continue to do, my fair share of peaceful disruption in my time, and am an advocate of non-violent direct action - but always directed at appropriate targets and in an appropriate manner. This proposal smacks of the similar tactic I have witnessed of certain peace activists berating ground-level employees of animal labs, Aldermaston or British Nuclear Fuels. "Never mind that it's an economically depressed area and the only employment you can find - leave your bloody job on principle, 'cause if you remain in it you're nothing but a bloody-handed agent of the murdering state!" Yes, I'm anti-nuclear/-vivisection; yes, I want those institutions closed down; yes, I will civilly discuss my views with these employees and put my case. No, I will not welly in and one-sidedly berate them in this manner - it's hitting at the soft target, and incidentally the wrong one, and puts them entirely on the defensive.

What's more likely to push some of the children attending into, ultimately, a defensive pro-war attitude? A load of tanks and planes and some soldiers and re-enactors displaying marching, etc., with a peace stall somewhere outside the event - or a gang of professed "peace activists" shouting, shoving and spreading disruption in the middle of all this?

Yes, events like this will attract their share of the public who are jingoistic or glorify the military, but equally a sizeable number of those attending will be opposed to, or ambivalent about, the current wars we're engaged in, and will be attending purely from interest in the military. [Incidentally, even looking at this from a purely self-interested point of view, you are probably going to annoy and upset a great many veterans of the anti-fascist conflicts].

If you truly want to go for the "hearts and minds", rather than p*ssing a load of people off, might I suggest that a better tactic would be to set up a pro-peace, anti-war stall in the nearby area. I know that might be less fun, but it would be a damn sight more efficient. Think about it - there'll be a great many people around that day with military on the mind as attendees of the festival, a sizeable proportion of whom will be opposed to the wars and invasions which Britain is currently engaged in, who would be more likely to be open to debate with you than if this planned infiltration goes ahead.

For those of a left-wing political bent who believe in class solidarity, the Services and police, etc. are ultimately part of this approach too. You start talking to a serving soldier whilst you're on that stall about the shortcomings of the British Army as an institution, how recruitment is targeted at economically depressed areas, etc. and you're far more likely to make some progress (this isn't wishful thinking, I've done it several times) than if you're yelling at them inside the Military Festival whilst they're showing a group of kids camouflage netting.

Personally, I wouldn't have any time for re-enactors, of whatever period, who would attempt to glorify war by doing what they do. (There's certainly none in my regiment). There may be some like this, re-enactors or otherwise, at the event, and should I attend I would personally (civilly) argue and debate with them, backing up my points as needed; that's the trouble with aggressive disruption, you never get to put the damned point across when you might have a chance of swinging people round to your view.

A different approach than the planned infiltration is required; otherwise, I'm afraid that it will simply come across as loutish attention-seeking, which results in a ton of bad P.R. for the rest of us who actually try to protest appropriately and effectively. There's a time and a place, and I feel that this is not the place.

I concur entirely with those who are advising you to take the protest to Downing Street or DESI. FAR more positive impact in the media (when they bother to cover it, admittedly), and targeting those who deserve it. The media give us short enough shrift as it is - for pity's sake, can we PLEASE stop playing into their hands like this.

[Apologies for the long-windedness and the use of capitals as emphasis!]

Yours comradely,
Sara

P.S. Army Wife - to be fair, I think the post above yours regarding the "crying child" was actually a dry comment on what BAD P.R. would result from going ahead with this plan of action, rather than advocating it.

(By the way, though I am completely opposed to this infiltration, the more acerbic of my comments are directed against those pseudo-anarchists who [in my opinion] don't organise or target their actions appropriately and think the end justifies any means necessary; rather than the sincere peace activists whose planned action here, rather than their views, I am arguing against).

Nice comment from Sara. This will all fizzle out, as there are no student discount tickets - don't really expect the new Millenium anarchists to be able to afford this, do you? Then again, what with the benefits that the antichrist Bliar doles out to them, there could be a few in attendance. Drop in the ocean compared to the 25-30,000 guests they expect to be there anyway!

Be safe, young idealists......

Potential demonstrators would be best advised to stay away! You have the right to demonstrate, of course. This is the sort of freedom that we have fought wars for in the past and to preserve which we are now in locations in the Middle East. I suggest you stick to your part time jobs and save up to pay off your student loans. You will NOT be wecome at this FAMILY day out!

we're doing a job, the army would not begrudge you a protest against our presence in iraq, infact im sure theres a sizeable ammount of serving soldiers who would agree with you, as you will see if you actually try and gauge oppinion on ARRSE, but whilst our friends are away in Iraq and afghanistan, if you decide to harrass and bring distress to there wives and children we will quite rightly post on here to point out how misguided you are.

This reminds me of the viatnam war when protesters shamfully spat on and beat up serving U.S soldiers who did nothing more than answer the call when asked to serve there country.

Its the government not the Army you need to target. Goons.

If one of your aims is to "empower" British servicemen to disobey orders then you are doomed to failure. Whether a serviceman disagrees with a conflict or not, he/she is in no position to disobey that order. If they had that ability then anarchy would reign but I suppose that's what you want. The Police and Armed Forces are not allowed to strike or disobey orders as the 2 organisations are relied upon to maintain our democracy and public order; a collapse of these organisations would mean a collapse of our civilisation. Maybe you should aim for slightly lower and more achievable objectives?

"Its the government not the Army you need to target. Goons."

At the end of the day its the soldiers carrying the guns and doing the killing.

geddit?

who's doing the killing - surely?

"At the end of the day its the soldiers carrying the guns and doing the killing.

geddit?
Goon"

Absolute rubbish, how inconveinient to your anti-army agenda that the killing is actually being carried out by sunni extremists with bombs left in busy market places killing 50 a time almost daily. whilst my mates out there are trying to keep as many people alive as possible.

Your average sqauddie wants to go home to see his wife and padbrats. not collect iraqi childrens ears on his webbing.

Goon - you really live up to your name. The military are not allowed to disobey orders, which is why the term 'AWOL' exist. They cannot just refuse to do it or they will be sent to jail, I suggest you read the comment just above yours again and then read it again.
Furthermore, what ppl can't figure out is WHERE and WHEN you are choosing to protest - on a family day out. You guys will really want to be the cause of upsetting families? Why don't you take a leaf out of Brian Haw's protest? He's done so peacefully and right at the heart of the war makers, and has probably got the most rememorable UK publicity than any other demo for doing so.

I applaud those who have questioned the call for this demo. It should not go unchallenged although I suspect the people (or person) behind it will be blind to reason - see below.

Reading the call to action carefully, "disruption" is obviously much more of a motive than "engaging the troops". Quite simply, you can't engage people by noisy demonstration or disruption, so its pretty obvious what the true objective behind this call for a demonstation is.

Likewise, if the idea is to engage servicemen and their families, then why call upon anti-military groups - who will not empathise with them - to participate? Nope, its not really about engagement,is it? Once one realises this, the situation becomes very clear - it's simply a call to cause as much trouble as possible. So I bet my last pound that hatred rather than peace is the true motive. As such, demonstrators will simply be the unwitting pawns of those harbouring other, darker motives.

There are of course many sincere people who question the policies of this government (including many in the military), and rightly so. What a pity then that this "peace" group seeks to represent them, for the result will only be negative. But perhaps that's what the latter want, as I suspect that in their world of inverted logic, they hope it might cause a public backlash against the demonstrators, which might in turn discredit the military and one day help pave the way for a glorious anti-capitalist revolution. If so, one can only pity them and their absurd fantasy world.

Let's hope sensible people will treat this call for action - ie to cause disruption - with the contempt it deserves. There are plenty of bona fide demos to go on, where the genuine cause of peace can be honestly promoted, instead of being hijacked.

If the person who called for this demonstration disagrees with the above, then let him or her show this by issuing a declaration removing the call for noisy disruption in favour of entirely peacefully engaging the event visitors, ie in a way that might actually work. You can bet this won't happen and assuming this, I rest my case, m'lud.

Just in case anyone is wondering, the military festival consists of civilian motorcycle display teams, parachute displays, band music and historical re-enactment eg the Romans. There is just one modern military display. Most of the military vehicles are vintage. The aircraft are WWII Spitfires. I know this as I bothered to ask.

So much for "They will be showing off the weapons currently used in occupation and war zones from around the world in their attempt to glorify war and all it stands for".

Admitedly there's supposed to be a couple of modern helicopters, but so what?

Demonstrators, go find a proper target, not families on a day out.

"Absolute rubbish, how inconveinient to your anti-army agenda that the killing is actually being carried out by sunni extremists with bombs left in busy market places killing 50 a time almost daily. whilst my mates out there are trying to keep as many people alive as possible.

Your average sqauddie wants to go home to see his wife and padbrats. not collect iraqi childrens ears on his webbing."

You're saying that none of 'our boys' have killed any Iraqi civilians?

You're clearly in some kind of delusional alternative existence.

Hope you get well soon.

When it comes to so called "liberals" (or Totalitolerants as they really are) nothing is true than this statement:

"It's funny how those most insistent that they listen to their point of view are least likely to listen to yours"

These totalitolerants are filled with blind hate. To them anyone who doesn't share their world POV is a twisted baby-murderer who gets off (probably sexually in their twisted world view) to an increasing body-count. Their definition of a bigot is anyone who beats them in a debate. And so they demon-bate. They twist any counter-argument to demonise their opnonent. It is the tactic of the intellectually, and morally bankrupt.

Sara, your arguments are eloquently put. Frankly though I could not hold greater contempt for your opinions if I tried. That's OK though, because although i hold your views in utter contpempt it isn't personal, I'm sure you are very nice, but it's a big world and I can tolerate the notion that you have every right to be wrong (as I am sure you belive me to be). The difference is between me and the Totalitolerants is that I can agree to disagree, they would like to see me wiped off the face of the earth, probably using the same means they are protesting against. It's ironic really.

The truth be told, to want to "peacefully protest", which we should interprit as "spew out as much venom and hate as possible against people we don't know, and if we get the chance perhaps even turn that venom into violence to impose our point of view" against families with no strategic political influence is just cowardice. It's no different to a sullen teenager smacking the little girl that lives next door because he doesn't like what his parents choose to buy with their money.

Alright so been reading the comments and feel the need to say a few things. First the latest comment from 4321kram

how inconveinient to your anti-army agenda that the killing is actually being carried out by sunni extremists with bombs left in busy market places killing 50 a time almost daily You're saying that none of 'our boys' have killed any Iraqi civilians?
basicly this sums up your point am I right??? So what are you proposing??? A Brit kills a civilian 1 civilian it's not something he want's to do but if killing that 1 civilian to keep 50 alive it kind of makes sence. Now I don't know all the ins and outs of Army. I am not wanting there to be such thing and I wish there was peace in this world as does most people. I am married to someone in the army and he wishes that he didn't have to fight to protect us but someone has to do it for if nobody was fighting to keep us free and alive the world would certainly be a horrible place with Rape, Murder and everything else happening WAY more then it already does. Look at Iraq and places where war is going on it's horrible be glad it's not here and if it weren't for the army it probably would have.

Observer makes all 100% sence. Yes there is a timew and place and people who are against army and what there doing and those who want peace will hopefully not show up to this as it is not going to be the right way and is going to lead nowhere but to make them look bad. It does sound like an excuse for a bunch of people to get together and cause fights which is not going to get any point through. Please to the person who is organising this I know your reading these comments, I want you to justify if you can what your point is and why you plan to make a very loud pro-peace noise. not a sensible one where you might actually get notice for???

++"Absolute rubbish, how inconveinient to your anti-army agenda that the killing is actually being carried out by sunni extremists with bombs left in busy market places killing 50 a time almost daily. whilst my mates out there are trying to keep as many people alive as possible...


==You're saying that none of 'our boys' have killed any Iraqi civilians?


Complete non-sequitur. Learn to address the point made and you will gain credibility. Straight question for you - do you consider the deliberate strategic and tactical targetting of civilians in schools and marketplaces in order to foment an atmosphere and violence, as perpetrated by Sunni and Shia extremists, to be the moral equal of the British Army's mandate and policy of attempting to protect life which incidentally causes unavoidable casualties?

John

This outburst of hatred towards the Military is obviously a deep-rooted sub-conscious cry for help. Were you abused as a child???

Were you abused by the Military??

I take it that was a no as well!!

So what's wrong with you? You are campaigning against a war in a far off place, fine that’s your opinion, but as the last peace protester found out when he went to Iraq, the people we are fighting don't care what side of the fence you are on.

10,000+ Gassed Kurds obviously mean nothing to you. 3,000+ victims of 911 who were from every country in the world and of every religion mean nothing to you?? Both acts carried out before the wars you are against.
We are fighting the people who are responsible for creating the perpetrators of these acts.

Theatres, Schools, Subways, Trains all targeted by the people you support...YES you support them by your actions. This is what they want. Thank god people like you did not have a voice in WWII.

What did the victims of the above attacks have in common.....Innocent Civilians that’s what....they don't care who they kill....our troops DO!!

Any ways there's no point in knocking on wood when there's no one home.

At the moment if we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan there will be a blood bath as the insurgents attempt to take over the countries. Thousands of innocents will die. Is that what you want...would you be able to sleep at night!!!!?

In any case I will be at the show and if you demonstrate near me; I will demonstrate my feelings towards you and you’re kind in a way that can be described as non-peaceful….

Why should you be allowed to ruin my weekend and as to it being the Biggest show…. just shows how small minded you are…go and demonstrate at the arms trade fair or is that out of your league??

So as the title says don’t even bother, you’ll just miss the omnibus edition of Coronation Street or Eastenders…I here those prison cells are un-comftable.

This is certainly an interesting thread - I for one welcome people protesting war at this event, but agree with many of the above comments - you have to do it very carefully! Be sure you do engage with the public, be sure you are denouncing the government and not the military.

I come from a semi-military background myself and I can assure you that many serving would love to know there are people here in the UK campaigning for them to be brought home safely, swiftly and surely. Kendall Smith is a hero to many many people. There are many considering (all the time) following in his footsteps. If you can encourage one or 2 more to disobey their orders, maybe you can create a whole snowball effect. It's certainly worth attempting. But as most of the above commentors say, be sure your message is not lost.

I hear the government is bringing in plans to make soldiers who go AWOL serve LIFE SENTENCES in prison. Surely this is reason enough to disobey now.

In May ... " it was revealed that nearly 3,000 soldiers have deserted the British Army each year since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. Of these, more than 1,000 are still reported to be missing. Official Ministry of Defence (MoD) figures record that 2,825 soldiers went “absent without leave” in 2003, rising to 3,050 in 2004 before falling slightly to 2,725 in 2005."
from  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/06/342687.html?c=on

Whatever your view of this protest is, hopefully we can all agree that we hope the all come home safely and soon.

Best Regards,

JM wrote: "I hear the government is bringing in plans to make soldiers who go AWOL serve LIFE SENTENCES in prison. Surely this is reason enough to disobey now. "

LOL, life sentances for AWOL ? Where did you read that, the Beano ? I don't think that's very likely mate - not even with the shockingly short length of time that "life" means these days ! "28 days detention, soldier on" more like . . .

Reading your comment, it becomes apparent that you lot *really* do think you've got a hope of persuading half the British Army to have it away on its toes, don't you ? Poor deluded hippies . . .

I would like to thank the women and men of the British Armed Forces for the sacrifice they make. Without them going in to battle and taking over countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq, our supply of natural resources, and thus our profits would be diminished. Who cares that Blair had to lie to get them to go? Please don't think about this. It will only give you a headache. Please don't call the military people "pawns" - it is a sore spot for many of them and not completely true - they did willingly join up after all! Whilst the armed forces are under Blair's control and are willing to destabilise foreign nations and kill civilians - oops I mean "TERRORISTS", our supply of natural gas and oil remain strong.

Instead of urging the soldiers to refuse to fight, I urge you all to invest in BP - you'll be rich. I certainly am! The soldiers expect very little in return except a pat on the back. Well done soldier, well done. See, that's all they want to hear.

Now it should be clear that they are willing to do this, that they enjoy doing this, and that due to the training they have received, they will obey all orders without question. Well, with the exception of one or two, but those hippies and traitors like Kendall Smith you mention above are being dealt with.

With that in mind, I urge you to invest in BP. You can find all the information you require right here:  http://www.bp.com/investorhome.do?categoryId=132&contentId=2004195

Regards,

so you really think this protest is going to do any good, you are wasting your time. do you really think the soldiers in Afghanistan want to be shot at, its there job. obviously you must of forgot what had happend sept 11 2001 and 7/7 in london. why dont you protest about illegal immagrants or terrorist in this country and stop wasting the military's time in your pathetic attempt to stop what is goin on in iraq and afghanistan. you will only cause grief and upset military personnel and family of military personnel serving on tour. your protest will fail fail fail...

"I would like to thank the women and men of the British Armed Forces for the sacrifice they make."

You're very welcome.

"Without them going in to battle and taking over countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq . . ."

Has someone taken over Afghanistan and Iraq ? Good Lord, when did that happen ? Last time I looked there were democratically(1) elected governments in both countries. You can't turn your back for a second, can you !

"they did willingly join up after all! Whilst the armed forces are under Blair's control and are willing to destabilise foreign nations and kill civilians - oops I mean "TERRORISTS", our supply of natural gas and oil remain strong. "

Do you work for the BBC or the Grauniad ? They have an inexplicable aversion to calling a terrorist a terrorist too ! Yes, all servicemen in the British Armed Forces joined up willingly. You see, some people have a sense of duty to their country. These may seem like an alien concept to you, but you can sleep peacefully tonight because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf.(2) As I said before, you're very welcome.

"Now it should be clear that they are willing to do this, that they enjoy doing this, and that due to the training they have received, they will obey all orders without question. Well, with the exception of one or two, but those hippies and traitors like Kendall Smith you mention above are being dealt with. "

You know, when I swore my oath of allegience, I undertook to obey the orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and the generals and officers set over me. I'm *pretty* sure that there weren't any bits along the lines of "unless I don't happen to like those orders, or some bleeding heart liberal tells me not to".

As for Mr. Kendall-Smith, maybe he should have thought a bit harder about what he was doing before he joined up. If he wanted to decide policy, he should have entered politics, not the forces. Having decided to implement policy, rather than make it, he should have done his duty. As it is he has let his service and his comrades down. Good riddance, in my opinion.

"Well done soldier, well done. See, that's all they want to hear."

It would be nice, once in a while. But you're not required to be grateful of course. Getting a bit of a clue about what you're talking about would be a nice gesture though.

(1) For a given value of democracy anyway, certainly markedly better than the pre existing conditon.

(2) With due acknowledgement to Orwell, or was it Kipling ?

"Has someone taken over Afghanistan and Iraq ? Good Lord, when did that happen ? Last time I looked there were democratically(1) elected governments in both countries."

When did you last look? How hard did you look? It seems pretty obvious that the governments of both those countries are pretty much puppets. UK and US does very little to support democracy around the world. Look at how the treated the Palestinians after Hamas was democratically elected... or look at how Aristide, the democratically elected leader of Haiti was ousted by US Forces just a couple of years ago so their own puppet could be installed. It's outrageous!

"Do you work for the BBC or the Grauniad ? They have an inexplicable aversion to calling a terrorist a terrorist too ! "

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. When UK troops destroy a civilian Iraqi home, the UK troop is the terrorist. It's all about perception isn't it?

"Yes, all servicemen in the British Armed Forces joined up willingly. You see, some people have a sense of duty to their country. These may seem like an alien concept to you, but you can sleep peacefully tonight because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf."

That's exactly the reason I'm not sleeping peacefully! It's coz "rough men" aren't asking enough questions about what they're being told to do out there. Oh, I am so genuinely pleased there are people willing to serve our country, and defend this nation from attack. But is that what is happening? It looks like Blair and Bush have hoodwinked a huge number of dutiful people into doing their bidding. The soldier's goodwill and sense of duty is being completely abused here. You, my friend, have been duped.

"You know, when I swore my oath of allegience, I undertook to obey the orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and the generals and officers set over me."

That's really scary! I think that's how dictatorships start. "I will do my master's bidding regardless of what it is".... "I will obey without question" ... It's only a couple of steps away from "I will kill all Jews if you tell me to." At what point do you refuse?

" I'm *pretty* sure that there weren't any bits along the lines of "unless I don't happen to like those orders, or some bleeding heart liberal tells me not to"."

Where do you draw the line? If Her majesty or her officers tell you to jump off a cliff? To kill your own mum? To kill innocents? To invade a foreign defenceless country? Surely there is a line inside you that you would not cross no matter what Her Majesty (or her officers) told you to do. Where is that line? Do you torture innocents? Engage in ethnic cleansing? Topple democracies? Surely there will be a point in your future where You will question what you are being told to do. What is in the officer's/PM's best interest isn't necessarily what is in the country's best interest.

"As for Mr. Kendall-Smith, maybe he should have thought a bit harder about what he was doing before he joined up. If he wanted to decide policy, he should have entered politics, not the forces. "

I understand he joined up out of a sense of duty to his country; his desire to protect this great nation and ensure the freedoms that most British people take for granted. But he wasn't being ordered to defend this country, he was being ordered to engage in a war believed to be both immoral and illegal.

Thanks for reading!

Thankyou for not turning up.

This is a wonderful thing to do, we must stop the imperialists,fascists from celebrating genocide. Peace is our task, if some Militaristic fascist wearing DPM gets justice, so be it. Put holes in the wings of the aircraft, so they may not fly again to kill innocent peoples. we must struggle if we want to rid ourselves of these filth.

Fascists at Colchester
16.07.2006 18:35

This is a wonderful thing to do, we must stop the imperialists,fascists from celebrating genocide. Peace is our task, if some Militaristic fascist wearing DPM gets justice, so be it. Put holes in the wings of the aircraft, so they may not fly again to kill innocent peoples. we must struggle if we want to rid ourselves of these filth.

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I've noticed that it tends to be countries that have no history of living under fascism, who throw this phrase around like it's going out of fashion.A fascist seems to be someone who stands for something that you don't like.

Examples of fascist/totalitarian states are Nazi Germany, East Germany.Until you've suffered under such conditions, I suggest you think before you speak.

The fact that you're allowed to publicly demonstrate your opinions, whether it be via the internet, or in the form of peaceful protest, suggest to me that the picture you're attempting to paint of the UK is a little off. I also suspect that should your political creed get into power, you'd quickly stamp on the right to free speech, the right to protest etc.

Again, see Nazi Germany,East Germany,Soviet Union as examples.

With Love & Kisses,

Gunther

You Cowards, how come those planes can still fly? why werent these Fascists Hounded into shame? all talk, with no action, you disgust me.