Skip to content or view mobile version

Home | Mobile | Editorial | Mission | Privacy | About | Contact | Help | Security | Support

A network of individuals, independent and alternative media activists and organisations, offering grassroots, non-corporate, non-commercial coverage of important social and political issues.

Zionism, What's it all about

Nationalism Sucks | 07.12.2006 14:50 | Palestine

One Anarchist's point of view about Zionism,
I would quite like to have some dialogue here, so please leave a comment, criticise everything I say if you feel you should

Quite often people ask me what I think of Zionism being Jewish and an Israeli national.
I'll try and define this here, because all too often I find myself having to defend dubious values, which I disagree with, but which I also understand the merits of.

My late grandmother, a polish Jew, a socialist, and a Zionist had to flee Poland in her early teens she received a visa to study Hebrew at the Jerusalem University.
She often used to tell me stories about her home town, Kalish. She did so with such emotions that I suspect she never would of moved to Palestine if she didn't have to.
but circumstances left her no choice, and she had to flea.
On her journey, she had several very close calls, she had to avoid German soldiers, and her fate was all too often hanging on a very thin line.
On the way, she spent some time in Russia, being a socialist she was very disillusioned when she saw the Stalin regime.
She wasn't a Zionist because she believed that we are 'the chosen people' she was one, because living the discrimination, she believed a Jewish state was the only solution.
I had great respect for her, along side very many criticisms, not least of which the short sightedness, and a fair amount of racism.
She was short sighted because she didn't consider the fact that a Jewish state is inherently a discriminatory concept, and she was racist, because she believed that the 'primitive' Palestinians will benefit from a western life, she did use to speak of them as a nation of untrustworthy people, and did so for the rest of her days.
although I've argued plenty with her about this, in the end of the day, she was born in Europe, and had those values ingrained in her.
Now you might be thinking, wait a minute, how can she be a socialist and racist? This is a fair point, I have no answer to that, she just was, I guess that while developing her socialist values, the racist values were too deeply ingrained in her mind to overcome. maybe that was the only way she could justify being a socialist Zionist. None the less, she had little choice but to move to Palestine at the time.
My grandfather, is an even more complicated story, he died when I was a little kid, so I never had the chance to have a proper conversation with him about this, but what stayed was a family legend. He was a communist Zionist, at the time there was a massive argument about weather Israel should be a communist or a capitalist state. Since Zionist as an ideology, have one thing in common with all it's believers, that is a Jewish state, everything else is superimposed on it, the occupation, the discrimination, even it's location (The land now known as Israel) are all but unnatural additions to it.
My grandfather never had to flea persecution, my guess is that he became a Zionist because his parents were, and because he have seen all the other Jews being persecuted.
as a compromise between those who wanted Israel capitalist, and those that wanted it to be communist, the Kibutz movement was established.
In retrospect, i think it was a foolish compromise on the communists side, you cannot have a compromise with capitalists. none the less, they both had great aspirations for Israel, I think they believed that since the Jews were oppressed, and since this is a Jewish state, it will inherently be a non-discriminatory state. this is another short sightedness, but it's easy for me to say so now, it was a lot harder for them to. And so it was, that with complete disregard to the Palestinians and their will, Israel was founded, partially on very racist values, and partially on very progressive values. For the Palestinians, this seemed like nothing new, they were used to being occupied by foreign forces, and resisting those as they come and go. I'm sure some red lights went on, when half a million were forced to leave, this did not happen when the British, or the Turkish empires ruled them, but occupation wasn't all together a new concept.
A few generations later, came I. now I had to suffer all the short sightedness and failures of Zionism. I had to live I a war zone for most of my life, I had to see first hand what a state with 'higher' and 'lower' being is like. They say that the oppressor is also oppressed, and this is more than true for me, and for anyone who considers himself conscientious. Although I never had to witness the worst of the war, I never had to face my house being demolished, my family being killed by a missile, or tanks roaming around my back yard. I understand that some will be furious when they hear me claiming myself a victim of the occupation too, but this is how I feel. It's still not very nice living in a war zone, even if you are on the stronger side of the coin. the constant 'vigilance', the fear that any bus I'll go on might blow up, the soldiers and guns everywhere, and the general atmosphere of unease are not nice things to live with. inevitably, some people I know will and have died, some of my friends have been killed serving in the army, and others got injured. by all means, they shouldn't have been there in the first place, but none the less they have, none the less the price of Zionism meant compulsorily recruitment and a militarized society. Schools and even nurseries which are geared towards promoting this, justifying it, and brainwashing young children, to the extent that they want to go serve the army, and are even eager to kill or die for it. This is what Zionism meant for me on the ground. With all that, with the knowledge that Zionism was wrong then, and is even more so now, I find it very difficult to altogether denounce Zionism.
It feels like betraying my family roots, like I am altogether throwing away their ideals and aspirations. They were, with all their failing, wishing to have what is essentially a state for the discriminated. Living in Israel, I never once have defended it, nor did i ever think of myself as a 'Jew', I bundled both these concepts into Nationalism, and saw no reason or justification for neither.
Only when I moved to England, I found myself having to defend those values, I only defined myself as Jewish because have been discriminated against on these grounds, and while I will never really define myself as Zionist, I only had to defend it because it all to often being equated with Nazism. While it has got some fundamental flaws, and some common elements of fascism, comparing it to actual Nazism is naïve, dangerous, and more often than not unhelpful.
My position on it is as follows:
First, weather it was right or wrong at the time, weather or not there should have been a 'Jewish state' is missing the point, all too often people just didn't have a choice. As a state of the 'discriminated', it should of, right after being declared a Jewish state, being declared a 'state for the dispossessed'.
Right now, having an exclusively Jewish state is the worst thing that could possibly be, but I am aware that there is still a possibility of a new Nazi regime starting up anywhere, and having a place that will accept me, will the need to flea ever come about is a small comfort, but a comfort none the less.
It is a flawed Ideology, It is flawed because the only common merit, the only thing shared between all Zionists is the racist concept of a Jewish state, but 60 years ago, this was the foundation of a broad range of ideologies, so diverse, that few could be blamed for not seeing the one problem with it, its foundation.
This is also the one thing that will have to change if it was to regain it's legitimacy, It can no longer be a 'Jewish' state, there is no longer enough discrimination to justify it, not against Jews.
There may well be again in the future, two world wars and thousands of years of discrimination have thought me not to be surprised if it does come about, but right now there isn't. I would like Israel to be a place where everyone with no home, everyone who had to flea can make his new home, but I would also like every other nation in the world to be the same, Immigration controls make this very difficult. in fact one can postulate that without immigration controls, there would not be a state of Israel. Nothing, nothing at all, can justify what is being done in the name of Zionism, dispossessing others of their homes or livelihood is wrong, and is especially wrong when it's those things that brought about it's legitimacy in the first place.
The Palestinians were there first, all too often this is being ignored by Zionists, and the solution that is acceptable by most people is the two countries solution, I don't know if that will work, Palestine being a tiny fragmented country, but if that will stop the bloodshed, it's more than I can hope for.
A country of all it's people is my ideal solution, but as long as the fundamental concept of Zionism is a 'Jewish state' this could not work, and not enough people agree with me about changing this to make it viable.
Maybe when the smoke clears, and the victims are laid to rest in everyone's mind, there will be dialogue on the ground, people will start reconciling their differences, not as politicians, but as people, living side by side, and maybe than the concept of 'Zionism' will fade into irrelevancy, but until then, the horrors of this never ending war will continue, at least until there is a Palestinian state. Than again, if that will happen everywhere we could abolish borders altogether.

To conclude, I will only feel the need to define myself as Jewish, as long as there is discrimination against Jews, and will only feel some vague sympathy for Zionism as long as I believe that there is a prospect for another holocaust sometimes in the future. But if there is another holocaust, everyone who is being targeted, not just Jews should have a safe haven. I don't for a moment think that Jews rule the world, and I am offended by this very notion. There are some powerful Zionist sympathizers, but they do not represent me, there are even more powerful Christians, Muslims, and even Scientologists, but Jews have always been the target of conspiracy theories. If America seems biased towards Israel, it's to serve their own interests, not because of some powerful Zionist banker.

Nationalism Sucks

Comments

Hide 3 hidden comments or hide all comments

Background info

07.12.2006 15:02

The Hidden History of Zionism
By Ralph Schoenman

Chapter 1
The Four Myths

It is not accidental that when anyone attempts to examine the nature of Zionism – its origins, history and dynamics – they meet with people who terrorize or threaten them. Quite recently, after mentioning a meeting on the plight of the Palestinian people during an interview on KPFK, a Los Angeles radio station, the organizers of the public meeting were deluged with bomb threats from anonymous callers.

Nor is it easy in the United States or Western Europe to disseminate information about the nature of Zionism or to analyze the specific events which denote Zionism as a political movement. Even the announcement on university campuses of authorized forums or meetings on the subject invariably engenders a campaign designed to close off discussion. Posters are torn down as fast as they are put up. Meetings are packed by flying squads of Zionist youth who seek to break them up. Literature tables are vandalized and leaflets and articles appear accusing the speaker of anti-Semitism or, in the case of those of Jewish origin, of self-hatred.

Vindictiveness and slander are so universally meted out to anti-Zionists because the disparity between the official fiction about Zionism and the Israeli state, on the one hand, and the barbarous practice of this colonial ideology and coercive apparatus, on the other, is so vast. People are in shock when they have an opportunity to hear or read about the century of persecution suffered by the Palestinians, and, thus, the apologists for Zionism are relentless in seeking to prevent coherent, dispassionate examination of the virulent and chauvinist record of the Zionist movement and of the state which embodies its values.

The irony of this is that when we study what the Zionists have written and said – particularly when addressing themselves – no doubt remains about what they have done or of their place in the political spectrum, dating from the last quarter of the 19th century to the present day.

Four overriding myths have shaped the consciousness of most people in our society about Zionism.

The first is that of “A land without a people for a people without a land.” This myth was sedulously cultivated by early Zionists to promote the fiction that Palestine was a remote, desolate place ready for the taking. This claim was quickly followed by denial of Palestinian identity, nationhood or legitimate entitlement to the land in which the Palestinian people have lived throughout their recorded history.

The second is the myth of Israeli democracy. Innumerable newspaper stories or television references to the Israeli state are followed by the assertion that it is the only “real” democracy in the Middle East. In fact, Israel is as democratic as the apartheid state of South Africa. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria.

The third myth is that of “security” as the motor force of Israeli foreign policy. Zionists maintain that their state must be the fourth largest military power in the world because Israel has been forced to defend itself against imminent menace from primitive, hate-consumed Arab masses only recently dropped from the trees.

The fourth myth is that of Zionism as the moral legatee of the victims of the Holocaust. This is at once the most pervasive and insidious of the myths about Zionism. Ideologues for the Zionist movement have wrapped themselves in the collective shroud of the six million Jews who fell victim to Nazi mass murder. The bitter and cruel irony of this false claim is that the Zionist movement itself actively colluded with Nazism from its inception.

To most people it appears anomalous that the Zionist movement, which forever invokes the horror of the Holocaust, should have collaborated actively with the most vicious enemy ever faced by the Jews. The record, however, reveals not merely common interests but a deep ideological affinity rooted in the extreme chauvinism which they share.


 http://www.radio4houston.org/takingaim/home/hhz/

searcher


Zionism: Pitting the West against Islam

07.12.2006 15:11

The history of Israel has often been read as the saga of a people marked for extinction, who emerged from Nazi death camps -- from Auschwitz, Belzec and Treblinka -- to establish their own country in 1948.

Without taking away anything from the sufferings of European Jews, I will insist that this way of thinking about Israel -- apart from its mythologizing -- has merit only as a partisan narrative. It seeks to insulate Israel against the charge of a devastating colonization by falsifying history, by camouflaging the imperialist dynamics that brought it into existence, and denying the perilous future with which it now confronts the Jews, the West and the Islamic world.

When we examine the consequences that have flowed from the creation of Israel, when we contemplate the greater horrors that may yet flow from the logic of Zionism, Israel's triumphs appear in a different light. We are forced to examine these triumphs with growing dread and incredulity. Israel's early triumphs, though real from a narrow Zionist standpoint, have slowly mutated by a fateful process into ever-widening circles of conflict that now threaten to escalate into major wars between the West and Islam. Although this conflict has its source in colonial ambitions, the dialectics of this conflict have slowly endowed it with the force and rhetoric of a civilizational war: and perhaps worse, a religious war. This is the tragedy of Israel. It is not a fortuitous tragedy. Driven by history, chance and cunning, the Zionists wedged themselves between two historical adversaries, the West and Islam, and by harnessing the strength of the first against the second, it has produced the conditions of a conflict that has grown deeper over time.

Zionist historiography describes the emergence of Israel as a triumph over Europe's centuries-old anti-Semitism, in particular over its twentieth-century manifestation, the demonic, industrial plan of the Nazis to stamp out the existence of the Jewish people. But this is a tendentious reading of Zionist history: it obscures the historic offer Zionism made to the West -- the offer to rid the West of its Jews, to lead them out of Christendom into Islamic Palestine. In offering to 'cleanse' the West of the 'hated Jews', the Zionists were working with the anti-Semites, not against them. Theodore Herzl, the founding father of Zionism, had a clear understanding of this complementarity between Zionism and anti-Semitism; and he was convinced that Zionism would prevail only if anti-Semitic Europe could be persuaded to work for its success. It is true that Jews and anti-Semites have been historical adversaries, that Jews have been the victims of Europe's religious vendetta since Rome first embraced Christianity. However, Zionism would enter into a new relationship with anti-Semitism that would work to the advantage of Jews. The insertion of the Zionist idea in the Western discourse would work a profound change in the relationship between Western Jews and Gentiles. In order to succeed, the Zionists would have to create a new adversary, common to the West and the Jews. In choosing to locate their colonial-settler state in Palestine -- and not in Uganda or Argentina -- the Zionists had also chosen an adversary that would deepen their partnership with the West. The Islamic world was a great deal more likely to energize the West's imperialist ambitions and evangelical zeal than Africa or Latin America.

Israel was the product of a partnership that seems unlikely at first blush, between Western Jews and the Western world. It is the powerful alchemy of the Zionist idea that created this partnership. The Zionist project to create a Jewish entity in Palestine possessed the unique power to convert two historical antagonists, Jews and Gentiles, into allies united in a common imperialist enterprise against the Islamic world. The Zionists harnessed the negative energies of the Western world -- its imperialism, its anti-Semitism, its crusading nostalgia, its anti-Islamic bigotry, and its deep racism -- and focused them on a new imperialist project, the creation of a Western surrogate state in the Islamic heartland. To the West's imperialist ambitions, this new colonial project offered a variety of strategic advantages. Israel would be located in the heart of the Islamic world; it would sit astride the junction of Asia, Africa and Europe; it would guard Europe's gateway to the Indian Ocean; and it could monitor developments in the Persian Gulf with its vast reserves of oil. For the West as well as Europe's Jews, this was a creative moment: indeed, it was a historical opportunity. For European Jews, it was a stroke of brilliance. Zionism was going to leverage Western power in their cause. As the Zionist plan would unfold, inflicting pain on the Islamic world, evoking Islamic anger against the West and Jews, the complementarities between the two would deepen. In time, new complementarities would be discovered -- or created -- between the two antagonist strains of Western history. In the United States, the Zionist movement would give encouragement to evangelical Protestants -- who looked upon the birth of Israel as the fulfillment of end-time prophecies -- and convert them into fanatic partisans of Zionism. In addition, Western civilization, which had hitherto traced its central ideas and institutions to Rome and Athens, would be repackaged as a Judeo-Christian civilization. This reframing not only underscores the Jewish roots of the Western world, it also makes a point of emphasizing that Islam is the outsider, the adversary.

Zionism owes its success solely to this unlikely partnership. On their own, the Zionists could not have gone anywhere. They could not have created Israel by bribing or coercing the Ottomans into granting them a charter to colonize Palestine. Despite his offers of loans, investments, technology and diplomatic expertise, Theodore Herzl was repeatedly rebuffed by the Ottoman sultan. It is even less likely that the Zionists could at any time have mobilized a Jewish army in Europe to invade and occupy Palestine, against Ottoman and Arab opposition to the creation of a Jewish entity on Islamic lands. The Zionist partnership with the West was indispensable for the creation of a Jewish entity. This partnership was also fateful. It produced a powerful new dialectic, which has encouraged Israel, both as the political center of the Jewish Diaspora and the chief outpost of the West in the heart of the Islamic world, to become more daring in its designs against the Islamic world and beyond. In turn, a wounded and humiliated Islamic world, more resentful and determined after every defeat, has been driven to embrace increasingly radical ideas and methods to recover its dignity and power -- and to attain this recovery on the strength of Islamic ideas. This destabilizing dialectic has now brought the West itself into a direct confrontation against the Islamic world. We are now staring into the precipice. Yet do we possess the will to pull back from it?

by
Professor M. Shahid Alam

tails don't wag dogs


shalom

07.12.2006 16:34

Lot's of socialists were and are racists, Orwell included, forgive Granny your for that as racism was instiutionalised and promoted in the past. My grandfather was an ardent nationalist and I can see the merit in that as he wasn't a racist.

Also realise that many worthy anarchists such as Chomsky used to regard themselves as zionists, as the word and the concept has since been debased beyond recognition.

You should know that it is no betrayal of your family history to now reject what is now known as zionism. Plants and trees adapt to changing environments to survive, and you would be doing family a diservice if you didn't use the brains you obviously have ( although your english spelling stinks - 'whether' not weather and 'flee' not flea, not a major criticism) .

Remember, hate the state, love the people. There will always be wars when there are still borders and there is no real safety except for true individual freedom. I can't see peace in your homeland until there is a 'no-state solution', or armageddon. The latter seems more imminent and likely than the former, which doesn't bode well for any of us.

Your perspective really touched me, I've come to similar conclusions not had to face the same threats you have so it seems to mean much more coming from your background. I will always oppose Israel but I would die before betraying someone like you. Know you will always find safety if you relinquish your fear.

Be free, be wise, be critical, be peaceful.

Daniel


Excellent points of view and a most welcome approach on Zionism

07.12.2006 20:10

No one who takes time to acquaint himself/herself with the historical fact and realities, as presented by the author, could possibly fault the emotions and the feelings of the new generation Israeli.

Most refreshing indeed the references to the feelings of one who feels oppressed because of the imposed environment that prevails in his place of birth.

One element which the author relates to deserves attention and needs to be aired, extensively. It must be addressed from within the state of Israel by its own citizens. The element of discrimination is the most offensive of conditions and it is always imposed by and through events that always are not of the making of the generations who 'inherit' the condition and benefit from indoctrination.

The fact that the ex-oppressed are now the oppressors raises the issue of unjustified and inexcusable mentalities and attitudes to others, the others being the victims of the ex-oppressed.

No logical person, who has gone through, and personally experienced the events that spearheaded the drive for the creation of 'a Jewish state with secure boundaries / frontiers', can be excused or justified for his or her views when the person fails to reflect on the events that 'nurtured his or her own feelings' about 'being on the receiving end, as the oppressed'.

The time has come for the ex-oppressed to stop promoting and instilling in the young their own experiences, or those of their parents and grandparents. Their main concern should be to raise their young ones with the warranted approach to such issues as the extensively promoted and relentlessly referred to events that 'many more millions lost their lives, and hundreds of millions suffered from man's inhumanity to man, along with the holocaust victims', not all them Jews. Such an approach will be a good sign to indicate that the ex-oppressed are moving away from the ever present discrimination and racism that prevails and springs to mind when the element of Zionism is raised or promoted / discussed.

We request of all who read these thoughts and contribution to access and read the fax that was transmitted to the editor of the London Evening Standard, precisely because of the relentless promotions of the only element that has been treated as the one and only, unacceptable area of 'activities and events' prior to and during the 2nd World War.

The FAX at:
 http://www.uk-human-rights.org/media.htm

Points to other activities and to one of the many other unacceptable events that constituted organised crimes against fellow humans, because of the ever-present evil powers that corrupt minds and societies, at large. The author relates to the unacceptable state of affairs in Stalinist Russia and that element could have been added to the submissions for consideration by the editor of the London Evening Standard. The approach used for the submissions and the element chosen, however, was of greater significance because it raised and pointed to other issues that have been suppressed for far too long.

 webmaster@uk-human-rights.org
London - UK
6th December 2006

Andrew Yiannides
mail e-mail: yiandrew@yahoo.com
- Homepage: http://www.uk-human-rights.org


Hidden Comment

This posting has been hidden because it breaches the Indymedia UK (IMC UK) Editorial Guidelines.

IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

Excellent points of view and a most welcome approach on Zionism

07.12.2006 20:39

No one who takes time to acquaint himself/herself with the historical fact and realities, as presented by the author, could possibly fault the emotions and the feelings of the new generation Israeli.

Most refreshing indeed the references to the feelings of one who feels oppressed because of the imposed environment that prevails in his place of birth.

One element which the author relates to deserves attention and needs to be aired, extensively. It must be addressed from within the state of Israel by its own citizens. The element of discrimination is the most offensive of conditions and it is always imposed by and through events that always are not of the making of the generations who 'inherit' the condition and benefit from indoctrination.

The fact that the ex-oppressed are now the oppressors raises the issue of unjustified and inexcusable mentalities and attitudes to others, the others being the victims of the ex-oppressed.

No logical person, who has gone through, and personally experienced the events that spearheaded the drive for the creation of 'a Jewish state with secure boundaries / frontiers', can be excused or justified for his or her views when the person fails to reflect on the events that 'nurtured his or her own feelings' about 'being on the receiving end, as the oppressed'.

The time has come for the ex-oppressed to stop promoting and instilling in the young their own experiences, or those of their parents and grandparents. Their main concern should be to raise their young ones with the warranted approach to such issues as the extensively promoted and relentlessly referred to events that 'many more millions lost their lives, and hundreds of millions suffered from man's inhumanity to man, along with the holocaust victims', not all them Jews. Such an approach will be a good sign to indicate that the ex-oppressed are moving away from the ever present discrimination and racism that prevails and springs to mind when the element of Zionism is raised or promoted / discussed.

We request of all who read these thoughts and contribution to access and read the fax that was transmitted to the editor of the London Evening Standard, precisely because of the relentless promotions of the only element that has been treated as the one and only, unacceptable area of 'activities and events' prior to and during the 2nd World War.

The FAX at:
 http://www.uk-human-rights.org/media.htm

Points to other activities and to one of the many other unacceptable events that constituted organised crimes against fellow humans, because of the ever-present evil powers that corrupt minds and societies, at large. The author relates to the unacceptable state of affairs in Stalinist Russia and that element could have been added to the submissions for consideration by the editor of the London Evening Standard. The approach used for the submissions and the element chosen, however, was of greater significance because it raised and pointed to other issues that have been suppressed for far too long.

 webmaster@uk-human-rights.org
London - UK
6th December 2006

Andrew Yiannides
mail e-mail: yiandrew@yahoo.com
- Homepage: http://www.uk-human-rights.org


Hidden Comment

This posting has been hidden because it breaches the Indymedia UK (IMC UK) Editorial Guidelines.

IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

ISLAM=TERRORISM

07.12.2006 23:48

THE ROOT OF ALL PROBLEMS ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, ANY COUNTRY

jamal


Great Article. Thanks.

09.12.2006 20:32

"I suspect she never would of moved to Palestine if she didn't have to"

Indeed, and I believe this was true of most who emigrated during that dark period. However, the European Zionists, who were allowed to fly their flag within the Reich, collaborated directly with the Nazis, saying that any Jew who would not go to Palestine deserved to be on the trains. After all, the more "Israelis" they could create, the more their power and influence (and yes, wealth) would accumulate. These, after all, were mainly failed businessmen and politicians, who desired power above all else.

"She wasn't a Zionist because she believed that we are 'the chosen people' she was one, because living the discrimination, she believed a Jewish state was the only solution"

And I suspect that she was told that very thing, over and over, by the Zionist leadership, who did all in their power to perpetuate antisemitism, or even the very impression of this irrational hatred. Sadly, Zionists organizations still do this around the world.

Don't blame or condemn your Grandmother. She was deceived and used, just as the 'peasants' of any civilization are betrayed and used by such people. At least you're doing something about the situation.

"because she believed that the 'primitive' Palestinians will benefit from a western life"

As she was fed this Propaganda by the Zionists. Inicdentally, Hitler spoke of the benefit of Nazi leadership to "lesser societies".

"she did use to speak of them as a nation of untrustworthy people"

As she was fed such things by the Zionists. Her fear of what was occuring at the time, and the mischaracterization of events by the Israeli press/gov't. is probably to blame here, and is most likely not as conscious as some would think. It's easy to deceive people gripped by fear. Just look at today's US, or what Israeli politicians do and say whenever peace, dialogue, and reason threatens to end their war.

"at the time there was a massive argument about weather Israel should be a communist or a capitalist state"

It was basically an argument by well-meaning Jewish people, and the Zionist leaders, who desired the wealth only a capitalist state of their own could provide.

"Since Zionist as an ideology, have one thing in common with all it's believers, that is a Jewish state, everything else is superimposed on it, the occupation, the discrimination, even it's location"

All of that only proves that it is a ZIONIST State - meaning a state for the empowerment of those who either created or manipulated Zionism for their own aggrandizement - as opposed to the Jewish state I believe Zionism's original adherents believed in, which would not seperate people by race, and would have embraced socialism, since most Jews are liberal-minded.

"and since this is a Jewish state, it will inherently be a non-discriminatory state"

They were easier to mislead, because those misleading them spoke to them in familiar, comforting language, and often, their actions and true intentions were hidden - again, just like Bush/PNAC did to the American people.

"They say that the oppressor is also oppressed"

I believe there is no more poignant symbol of this than of Israelis surrounding themselves, once more, with walls, barbed wire, and gun towers, this time, in order to force the Zionists' will and create 'facts on the ground'.

"I understand that some will be furious when they hear me claiming myself a victim of the occupation too, but this is how I feel"

This is very understandable, and I fear that all too often, Israelis of conscience allow their guilt, and their view of the opposition to Zionism outside their borders, to believe that they cannot partner with activists outside their borders, or act against their Government and tell the world the Extremists do not speak or act in their name.

I think this needs to start happening in earnest, because Israel has set itself on a slippery slope, but one which can be reversed IF ACTION IS TAKEN IMMEDIATELY.

"It feels like betraying my family roots"

But I think Israelis have to understand that their concept of Zionism, and that of the Extremists using it to satisfy their own selfish and indefensible agenda, are not one and the same.

If you get a chance, watch a documentary called "the Other Zionist", about Israelis who oppose their Government and its perpetual, expansionist war.

"They were, with all their failing, wishing to have what is essentially a state for the discriminated"

Then nothing would fulfill this more than bringing down the Extremists who betrayed them for their own ends, inviting real talks of peace with your Palestinian bretheren, and creating a single state where both discriminated people could live together.

It IS possible ...

"but I am aware that there is still a possibility of a new Nazi regime starting up anywhere"

Sadly, it's already here, in the form of the Olmert Extremists, partnered with the US brand of Fascists. This time around, the Jews are being played by the Arabs & Muslims.

"To conclude, I will only feel the need to define myself as Jewish, as long as there is discrimination against Jews, and will only feel some vague sympathy for Zionism as long as I believe that there is a prospect for another holocaust sometimes in the future"

Antisemitism is at its lowest point in recorded history. Don't let that fear paralyze you, and keep you from acting against the Fascists of our time. Don't let your Jewish heritage limit you either, as first and foremost, you are a human being, just as I, the Palestinians, and everyone else on this Floating Rock are.

And we're all in this together.

Zionism, in its current form, is the greatest threat facing the Jewish People today.


Jordan Thornton
mail e-mail: pilgrim112@hotmail.com


Great article, with some exceptions

12.12.2006 19:18

But let me offer some comments/criticisms:

"She was short sighted because she didn't consider the fact that a Jewish state is inherently a discriminatory concept, and she was racist, because she believed that the 'primitive' Palestinians will benefit from a western life, she did use to speak of them as a nation of untrustworthy people,"

Racism was a common feature of Europe -- the idea that some people are, biologically, culturally and intellectually, inherently superior and others are inherently inferior -- even, of course, between Europeans, but especially against non-European peoples. Euroepan Jews were often even racist against non-European Jews. Western European Jews were often racist against Slavic Jews. European Jews were often very racist against Arab (Misrahi/Sephardic) Jews, even those living in Israel. European Jews were often racist against black African Jews -- and often still are even today. So, it is no surprise that European Jews would be racist against Palestinian Arabs -- although Jews in the Arab world lived side-by-side in relative peace (especially taking Israel out of the equation, but often even after Israel's founding). Being a "socialist" or even "anarchist" Jew (or anyone else) should mean that one is not racist, but often it doesn't.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"With all that, with the knowledge that Zionism was wrong then, and is even more so now, I find it very difficult to altogether denounce Zionism.
It feels like betraying my family roots, like I am altogether throwing away their ideals and aspirations."

I am black, but in my heart I believe that ultimately "my family" are all those kindred spirits in humanity who believe in a NON-RACIST, NON-CLASSIST world of PEACE *and* JUSTICE -- a kindred spirit of people who believe in absolute social equality and equal human dignity. "MY family" is certainly not just those who share my nationality; it is certainly not just those who share my ethnicity/culture; and it is certainly not just those who are my relatives -- for many of those people could be rather racist, even rather fascist (given the opportunity), and even (politically) rather dangerous to even my well-being and/or existence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"They were, with all their failing, wishing to have what is essentially a state for the discriminated."

But Israel was a state that MEANT *TO* discriminate from its very beginning! From its very founding state ideology: political Zionism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"First, weather it was right or wrong at the time, weather or not there should have been a 'Jewish state' is missing the point, all too often people just didn't have a choice."

Yes, people *do* have a choice: many Armenians fled to Palestine to escape the Armenian genocide/holocaust in Turkey, but the Armenians didn't go to Palestine with racist ideas and the intention to take the place over and drive out the Palestinians, the native/indigenous inhabitants.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Right now, having an exclusively Jewish state is the worst thing that could possibly be, but I am aware that there is still a possibility of a new Nazi regime starting up anywhere,"

Including by Jews in Israel. Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt, among other American Jewish immigrants, wrote a letter to the New York Times in the 1940's (I forgot the exact year) saying that Menachim Begin (a future prime minister of Israel) was a racist and a fascist and should not be allowed into the United States. There is no law of physics/biology that says that one cannot be a Jew and a fascist. And, in fact, Israeli Zionists *ARE* Nazi when it comes to the semi-genocidal brutality and steady ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians -- the Israeli Zionist regime expelling over 750,000 Palestinians in 1947/1948 alone.

But, you know what?: the Jewish holocaust lasted from 1942-1945. Western slavery against black people lasted for 400 years! Many many many more millions of black people died during/in the European slave trade than did Jews during the Jewish holocaust. (And for that matter, many more millions of native people died in Africa and the America's at the hands of Europeans than did Jews in the holocaust.) Some Jews were involved in the slave trade too, back then. But you don't see black Britons or black Americans running around constantly worried that the Euro-American slave trade might restart one day.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"and having a place that will accept me, will the need to flea ever come about is a small comfort, but a comfort none the less."

The Nazis almost made it to Palestine. If there were another Nazi anti-Semitic regime, having all the Jews, or a very high concentration of Jews, in one tiny state (all in one basket, so to speak) would be an anti-Semitic Nazi's *DREAM* come true!: one thermonuclear bomb (or at the most a few) and millions of Jews would be wiped out in one fell swoop! Far safer that Jews would be spread out among the countries of the world.

You should read the commentary, "Zionist Claim to Israel: Modern-Day Apartheid" (available online). It points out how Martin Luther King and the African American vision of The Promised Land was not a piece of real estate, but a just society.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The Palestinians were there first, all too often this is being ignored by Zionists, and the solution that is acceptable by most people is the two countries solution, I don't know if that will work, Palestine being a tiny fragmented country,"

How about the obvious?: a *reunfied* single secular democratic state with absolutely equal rights for all people regardless of race/ethnicity or religion (or of no religion). Actually, this is what the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Liberation Organization (a secular organization) had always called for.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"There are some powerful Zionist sympathizers, but they do not represent me, there are even more powerful Christians, Muslims, and even Scientologists, but Jews have always been the target of conspiracy theories."

And do you think that Zionsts conspiring with the Western imperialists (especially Britain, France and later the U.S.) to take more and more Palestinian land might contribute to this thinking? Btw, Jews have not always been history's only or worst victims of racism: sometimes Jews did worse than other minorities in certain countries, and sometimes Jews did better -- even much better -- than other minorities. (Today, in many Western countries, it seems that many Gentiles can't wait to marry enough Jews, and many Jews can't wait to marry enough Gentiles. In most cases, it certainly is no stigma either way.) The Zionist 'conspiracy' to steal Palestinian land, however, would, if anything, tend to *increase* anti-Semitism in the world -- yet many Arabs (unlike what the Zionists themselves anti-Semitically claim) do NOT equate all Zionists (and what they do) with all Jews. So, if I were a Jew is worried about anti-Semitism, I would greatly worry about and politically fight all those racist Zionists claiming to act in my name.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"If America seems biased towards Israel, it's to serve their own interests, not because of some powerful Zionist banker."

That's a strawman argument. Zionist Jews, by virtue of their concentration in politically important cities, by virtue of their rather good formal education, by virtue of their shared presence with non-Jewish whites in the mainstream corporate media (a presence that Palestinians do not have), and yes, by virtue of their relative collective social wealth (meaning that Zionists can very well finance their organizations), by virtue of how, especially, the American system of winner-take-all electoral politics works, and by virtue of playing on the guilt for what other *Europeans* (NOT Palestinians) did to Jews in the pogroms and the holocaust, Zionist Jews in general and the Israel lobby in particular, do have a highly disproportionate influence in, especially, the American political system.

See "The Left and the Israel Lobby" online.

Joseph Anderson


Hidden Comment

This posting has been hidden because it breaches the Indymedia UK (IMC UK) Editorial Guidelines.

IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

Everyone deserves music

12.12.2006 22:12

Whatever happened to the sun ?
It used to always come
Back when we were young
We'd sing and party all night long
The seasons don't ever come on time no more
And war paints over the years
And anger fills our tears
What happened to the sun ?

But I know, I know, I know I'm not alone
And I know, I know, I know I'm not alone

Everytime I read the news
I'm always more confused
They're telling me to choose
But there's only lies to choose from
And how many died today ?
How many lost their homes or shot a gun
Or a loved one ?
What happen to our sons ?

But I know, I know, I know I'm not alone
And I know, I know, I know I'm not alone

Even though I'm far from home I know I'm not alone

Walk to the front,
Open the gate
I see a road there

Even though I'm far away from home I'm not alone

Spearhead


Hide 3 hidden comments or hide all comments

Upcoming Coverage
View and post events
Upcoming Events UK
24th October, London: 2015 London Anarchist Bookfair
2nd - 8th November: Wrexham, Wales, UK & Everywhere: Week of Action Against the North Wales Prison & the Prison Industrial Complex. Cymraeg: Wythnos o Weithredu yn Erbyn Carchar Gogledd Cymru

Ongoing UK
Every Tuesday 6pm-8pm, Yorkshire: Demo/vigil at NSA/NRO Menwith Hill US Spy Base More info: CAAB.

Every Tuesday, UK & worldwide: Counter Terror Tuesdays. Call the US Embassy nearest to you to protest Obama's Terror Tuesdays. More info here

Every day, London: Vigil for Julian Assange outside Ecuadorian Embassy

Parliament Sq Protest: see topic page
Ongoing Global
Rossport, Ireland: see topic page
Israel-Palestine: Israel Indymedia | Palestine Indymedia
Oaxaca: Chiapas Indymedia
Regions
All Regions
Birmingham
Cambridge
Liverpool
London
Oxford
Sheffield
South Coast
Wales
World
Other Local IMCs
Bristol/South West
Nottingham
Scotland
Social Media
You can follow @ukindymedia on indy.im and Twitter. We are working on a Twitter policy. We do not use Facebook, and advise you not to either.
Support Us
We need help paying the bills for hosting this site, please consider supporting us financially.
Other Media Projects
Schnews
Dissident Island Radio
Corporate Watch
Media Lens
VisionOnTV
Earth First! Action Update
Earth First! Action Reports
Topics
All Topics
Afghanistan
Analysis
Animal Liberation
Anti-Nuclear
Anti-militarism
Anti-racism
Bio-technology
Climate Chaos
Culture
Ecology
Education
Energy Crisis
Fracking
Free Spaces
Gender
Globalisation
Health
History
Indymedia
Iraq
Migration
Ocean Defence
Other Press
Palestine
Policing
Public sector cuts
Repression
Social Struggles
Technology
Terror War
Workers' Movements
Zapatista
Major Reports
NATO 2014
G8 2013
Workfare
2011 Census Resistance
Occupy Everywhere
August Riots
Dale Farm
J30 Strike
Flotilla to Gaza
Mayday 2010
Tar Sands
G20 London Summit
University Occupations for Gaza
Guantanamo
Indymedia Server Seizure
COP15 Climate Summit 2009
Carmel Agrexco
G8 Japan 2008
SHAC
Stop Sequani
Stop RWB
Climate Camp 2008
Oaxaca Uprising
Rossport Solidarity
Smash EDO
SOCPA
Past Major Reports
Encrypted Page
You are viewing this page using an encrypted connection. If you bookmark this page or send its address in an email you might want to use the un-encrypted address of this page.
If you recieved a warning about an untrusted root certificate please install the CAcert root certificate, for more information see the security page.

Global IMC Network


www.indymedia.org

Projects
print
radio
satellite tv
video

Africa

Europe
antwerpen
armenia
athens
austria
barcelona
belarus
belgium
belgrade
brussels
bulgaria
calabria
croatia
cyprus
emilia-romagna
estrecho / madiaq
galiza
germany
grenoble
hungary
ireland
istanbul
italy
la plana
liege
liguria
lille
linksunten
lombardia
madrid
malta
marseille
nantes
napoli
netherlands
northern england
nottingham imc
paris/île-de-france
patras
piemonte
poland
portugal
roma
romania
russia
sardegna
scotland
sverige
switzerland
torun
toscana
ukraine
united kingdom
valencia

Latin America
argentina
bolivia
chiapas
chile
chile sur
cmi brasil
cmi sucre
colombia
ecuador
mexico
peru
puerto rico
qollasuyu
rosario
santiago
tijuana
uruguay
valparaiso
venezuela

Oceania
aotearoa
brisbane
burma
darwin
jakarta
manila
melbourne
perth
qc
sydney

South Asia
india


United States
arizona
arkansas
asheville
atlanta
Austin
binghamton
boston
buffalo
chicago
cleveland
colorado
columbus
dc
hawaii
houston
hudson mohawk
kansas city
la
madison
maine
miami
michigan
milwaukee
minneapolis/st. paul
new hampshire
new jersey
new mexico
new orleans
north carolina
north texas
nyc
oklahoma
philadelphia
pittsburgh
portland
richmond
rochester
rogue valley
saint louis
san diego
san francisco
san francisco bay area
santa barbara
santa cruz, ca
sarasota
seattle
tampa bay
united states
urbana-champaign
vermont
western mass
worcester

West Asia
Armenia
Beirut
Israel
Palestine

Topics
biotech

Process
fbi/legal updates
mailing lists
process & imc docs
tech