The Scotsman reported a while ago, that Devenport near Plymouth would be considered to be new home for nuclear weapons in case the SNP would win, hold a referendum with positive result for Scottish independence and then put it into reality.

 http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=577262007

Not sure if there are any updates on this story sine mid of april though.

I was reading somewhere that the Greens in Scotland have done a U-turn. Initially they ruled out any coalition with anyone. They are now stating that they will enter discussions with a view to coalition but with the proviso that any coalition will make Scotland Trident-free and nuclear energy-free, they also wish to halt all major road road projects and redirect the money into improving public transport.

Broadly-speaking, they are saying that so long as SNP stick to their own promises a coalition could be feasible.

Which is good news for anyone who is less than comfortable in voting for trots in the PR list vote.

Well here's hoping that this time tomorrow Scotland is a leap ahead towards leaving the UK.

I reckon these people might have something to say about moving Trident to Devonport:

 http://www.tridentploughshares.org/article984

Seriously, is there any port in what is still the UK (for how long, I wonder?) that would accept Trident being foisted on them? I'm thinking the Falklands...

What I did notice about the leaked plans to remove Trident from Scotland was the absence of any mention of an exit strategy.

Plans for economic recovery for a region such as Helensburgh ned to be offered in order to give the locals a fair choice. I'm fairly confident that if a proper exit strategy was offered to the people who work at Faslane/Rhu/Coulport that they would much rather work in a rea job rather than in a Fear factory.

Blair pulled the same stunt in the public "consultation" on nuclear energy. Needless to say, with no recovery package on the table you get the reaction desired. Who the hell is going to sign up for unemployment and the kind of social murder that happens when you simply whip the carpet out from under a communities feet (as we saw in Scotland and north of the Watford Gap under Thatcher).

Am I dreaming or wasn't Devonport already a Trident site up until a few years back?

It is strategically mad to suggest housing the warheads in that area- using the same fucked up MoD logic that placed it in Scotland.

But after all, Trident was strategic madness to begin with. M.A.D.

Devonport is STILL a Trident site to this day, Sweaty Sock. Devonport in Plymouth is where the Trident submarine fleet is refitted. HMS Victorious is having the finishing touches done to it as we speak, right next to this lovely town of 250,000 souls. The dockyard is the largest in western europe, and also houses a few old and decaying subs just for good measure. (just to remind some of you who forhet we exist ;) )

Regarding the jobs and economic recovery stuff, I think huge inroads are being made there. During the Trident parliamentary debate, Alison Seabeck the shiny bluLabour MP for Devonport acknowledged that the money could be used to fund other forms of employment.
(in a pub in Cornwall a year or so ago, I met a bloke who worked in Faslane for a few years, he saw my badges and we struck up a conversation. He told me that the most satisfying job he had ever had was working in a toilet paper factory, "it was something useful", he said....)

You can be damn sure that if the missiles were to be moved down here too, TP Tamarians and a good few others would certainly have something to say about it. (there is a great deal of good anti-nuclear action and activity in Plymouth by some wicked, committed activists, despite what some might have heard...)

I hope the SNP win big tonight, solely on the Trident issue, but we have to insist that we want the missiles DISARMED and DESTROYED, not just moved elsewhere. I am a Scot, but I live in Plymouth. I am not particularly fussed about independence, but I am absolutely determined on peace and justice and nuclear disarmament. I want Salmond to be a wee bit less insular, and say upon independence, "right, we're keeping yer nasty toys, and yer no' getting' them back! We're gonnae see how much we can get fur it doon the scrappy.."

PS, I know craziness seems the norm for the UK's Ministry of Defence/Attack, but I think putting the whole Trident kit in one place, Plymouth, would just be considered strategicly indefensible. All the nuclear eggs in one basket, only 100's of yards from a city of quarter of a million??

Nah, they wouldn't. Would they?

Peace out

>Devonport is STILL a Trident site to this day

Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong, Trident has to disarm it's missiles before it enters any English port. There are dozens of berths around the UK that are nuclear targets from foriegn countries and nuclear risks from our own accidents.

> the shiny bluLabour MP
haha- wish I'd thought of that one !

>( He told me that the most satisfying job he had ever had was working in a toilet paper factory, "it was something useful", he said....)

John, you should be on stage.

>(there is a great deal of good anti-nuclear action and activity in Plymouth by some wicked,
>committed activists, despite what some might have heard...)

I'd agree with that, the TP devonport camp always was well recieved.

>I hope the SNP win big tonight, solely on the Trident issue, but we have to insist that we want the missiles DISARMED and DESTROYED, not just moved elsewhere.

>I am a Scot, but I live in Plymouth. I am not particularly fussed about independence, but I am absolutely determined on peace and justice and nuclear disarmament. I want Salmond to be a wee bit less insular, and say upon independence, "right, we're keeping yer nasty toys, and yer no' getting' them back! We're gonnae see how much we can get fur it doon the scrappy.."

One Eastern European country sold their Soviet missiles to the US - maybe we should seize ours and sell them to the highest bidder if they refuse to give us our oil-money back ?
Salmond has said Scotland would withdraw from NATO, reform the Scottish regiments and post Socttish troops as UN peacekeepers. In the Scotland on Sunday though the MoD said they will move these nukes down south if the SNP get in 'in case of independence' - which is the main reason I was out working for them.

>PS, I know craziness seems the norm for the UK's Ministry of Defence/Attack, but I think putting the whole Trident kit in one place, Plymouth, would just be considered strategicly indefensible. All the nuclear eggs in one basket, only 100's of yards from a city of quarter of a million??

One of the subs is always on patrol. They do the same near Glasgow just now and that is a bigger city to risk. It really depends on whether the Lib Dems swing to the left (SNP) or to the right ( Labour) in a coalition government.

I apologise again for trying to persuade anarchists to vote, it was embarrasing though it wasn't a hassle in Scotland. The counterpoint to that is I have persuaded many more voters to take direct action if their vote is ignored.

The constituency I am in is one of the key ones. An exit poll in the most Labour area here is two-SNP for every one other. We have a poor turnout of 35% normally - this time 40% -45%. It was amazing how many 'I never vote for anyone' punters were so quickly converted to voting this once.

Hi Danny
Although I share your sympathies, just a couple of corrections -

Missiles (the rockets that carry the nuclear bombs) are not stored at Coulport any more. Fifteen years ago when Polaris was on the go, maybe, but for Trident the missiles are only unloaded at Kings Bay in Georgia USA (where the UK leases the missiles from) not at Coulport. UK Trident subs unload their missiles there just prior to going for refit at Devonport. After refit the empty sub sails over to the US to collect its missiles.

(Coulport does have 16 bunkers that can take missiles from a submarine in the event of an emergency but they have never been used as far as anyone knows - you can get a lovely view of them if you climb a hill at Ardentinny across Loch Long)

The decision to lease the missiles from the States, taken back in the late 1980's, meant that jobs at Coulport fell from about 1,500 to 500 - just when we were being told Trident created jobs...

What is stored at Couplort are the nuclear warheads - those taken off a Trident sub before it goes for refit in Devonport and those warheads that are taken off the subs for the routine 'safety' checks and replacing and up-grading components whenever a Trident sub returns from patrol. The warheads that are for checking are collected by the nuclear warhead convoys that travel between Coulport and Aldermaston where the checks & up-grades are carried out.

Out of the 200 or so warheads that the UK possesses, about three-quarters (144 or so) are kept on the missiles on the subs sailing in and out of Faslane. The rest are either at Aldermaston being worked on, in transit in the warhead convoys or at Coulport.

All the best

Apologies for equating missiles with warheads, I always do that. I wasn't focussing on the details when I wrote that post. After posting the SoS report on the implications of the election on a Trident relocation, I thought it worth speculating on the opposite too, the implications of a Trident relocation on the election.

"One (way) is to rig the election through the electronic vote-counters."

I hate making predictions like that so do it cautiously. But I may not know much about nuclear missiles or warheads but I do know more about OCR systems and their implications in elections. Never mind the national election, there has to be some fall-out from the non-nuclear SNP taking Argyll and Bute.

I have been pondering whether it is worthwhile contacting the Electoral Commission as an independent witness but in truth I don't even know who or what the Electoral Commision are. None of the parties will push this to it's natural conclusion, ala Gore 2000 backing down from the obvious electronic gerrymandering that stole Bush the elction. Still Salmond, Sheridan and Goldie have issued harsh rebukes for the most obvious failures of the system.

Odd that we can build a nuclear missile that can land within a few metres of anywhere in the world but we can't hold an obviously fair election on whether we should have such a weapon of mass destruction.


We've got photographs of men on the moon,
We've got water that is good for us,
We've got coffee that's instantaneous,
We've got buildings that are very tall,
We've got cigarettes that are low in tar,
We've got policemen can tell us who we are,
We can reproduce a work of art,
We've got missiles can tear the world apart,
Good, good, good, good, good, good technology.

- Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong, Trident has to disarm it's missiles before it enters any English port. There are dozens of berths around the UK that are nuclear targets from foriegn countries and nuclear risks from our own accidents -

You are quite right Danny, the missiles and warheads are not kept in Plymouth. But the submarines and their reactors are, and one can't forget that the missiles are next to useless(or more useless) without a delivery system. Disable the sub, and you break the back of the Trident threat. You are also quite correct in saying there are dozens of sites, dozens of targets throughout the country.
Anti-nuclear activism does not need to focus solely on the missiles.....

- John, you should be on stage. -

Behave, you'll make me blush...

So, when we gonna see you lot down at Devonport for some action?

"Disable the sub, and you break the back of the Trident threat. You are also quite correct in saying there are dozens of sites, dozens of targets throughout the country. Anti-nuclear activism does not need to focus solely on the missiles...So, when we gonna see you lot down at Devonport for some action? "

I've been in there. I couldn't get onto a sub so I exited without arrest. Once Scotland is truly free of Trident, missiles, warheads, z-berths and x-berths, I'll come down again and try harder. I can't speak for anyone else but I doubt an independent Scotland will slow the tremendous two way traffic between Britains protestors. Assuming we are on the cusp of independence, I'd like to thank all the English protestors who have made the long journey north to protest Polaris and Trident. And apologise in advance for dumping that shit onto your ports - but we never asked for it.

Wasn't it Lyndis Percy, an englishwoman, who thought up the slogan 'Independence from America' ? Maybe you could follow our shortcut to getting rid of US missiles by following her advice too !