Your question is whether climate change deniers are foolish or malicious.
My question is whether YOU are someone who wants to protect the movement from being dogmatic or whether you are just someone working for the police.

Do you really have to rely so much on scientific evidence to see that something's seriously wrong?
Look around you!

Even if you work for the british equivalent of COINTELPRO, do you really want the Gulf Stream to shut down and live the rest of your life in siberian temperatures?

As much as greek cops want to live in a desert, I guess...

WAKE UP!

You're quoting only the CO2 levels and global mean temperature.

Nobody thinks that climate can be accounted for by a single factor.

In the 40s and 50s there were more particles in the atmosphere, these had a cooling effect by reflecting sunlight.

This effect counterbalanced, effectively masked, the effect of the increased CO2.

With cleaner air, less particles, the effect of CO2 is now the more significant.

from what i can see of audio freaks original posting it was i think it was just an "extract" from the channel 4 documentary "the great global warming swindle" so of course it was not a detailed analysis and to be honest neither as your response either....one thing that puzzles and perplexes me is why when someone dares to make a posting that challenges other peoples beliefs they are immediately suspected of working for the state/police/gov ect.
i think our reader from greece is the one who should wake up actually.
turner hooch

Politicians have been sowing doubt about human-caused climate change.

The IPCC is the largest body of climate scientists and its reports are argued over, tested and scrutinised in every possible way. They are the best-tested scientific summaries of the evidence in existence.

Cherry-picking little pieces of data that aren't what you expect doesn't change the big picture.

Climate change is happening, human activity plays the main role in it. Every little "yeah, but" from posturing rebels against authority plays into the hansd of the big business interests that want to carry on regardless.

OK, there's an argument which says that we should ignore this kind of stupidity, and I generally manage it, but on this occassion lets revisit (for the millionth time) some of these factoids:

"climate change is part of a cycle of nature" - of course it is, so is mass extincton. By your logic humans are not causing a mass extinction now because past extinctions have been "natural occurances". Thats ridiculous!

"the warmest periods have happened well before humans started to produce large amounts of carbon dioxide" - I'm not convinced this is true, but even if it were, how does that "prove" that just about doubling the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere isn't going to lead to climate change? You presumably accept that atmospheric Co2 is increasing by around 2 parts per million per year, and presumably also accept that the earth is a lot warmer than it would otherwise be without our greenhouse blanket. Your premise in nonsense.

"A detailed look at recent climate change reveals that the temperature rose prior to 1940 but unexpectedly dropped in the post-war economic boom, when carbon dioxide emissions rose dramatically" - Yes, of course, well documented, and also thoroughly explained by the massive increase in particulate matter in the atmosphere caused by the pollution from rapid industrial growth. In any event, the thermal lag in the Earth's system will always lead to a delay between increases in greenhouse gases and increases in temoperature.

I'm not averse to people making fools of themselves on Indymedia, but really the quality is getting worse and worse!

Lots of Love from Sam the Bear

Human-induced Climate Change is not a BELIEF, it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT.

There's a massive difference between the two. Disbelieving gravity doesn't change the fact that it exists, either.

Take some very real concerns about the degradation of the environment and turn them into something utterly abstract, and you will soon find yourself talking about carbon emissions.

Martin Durkin's documentary - The Great Global Warming Swindle has been very heavily criticised. Many of the arguments within it seem to have been discredited.

I still think it was a good thing for someone to challenge the accepted orthodoxy of global warming.

Why am I writing this? Because I believe that the environmental movement has been hi-jacked by industrial interests. Carbon trading, and carbon offsets will solve nothing. The whole world seems to accept man-made global warming as a fact. How strange then the same people continue to drive cars and fly regularly. (Apparently 15% of Britons fly three times or more a year for foreign holidays.)

It doesn't make any sense for people to carry on in this manner if we are facing impending global disaster. The semi-awareness of man-made carbon-fuelled global warming seems only to have created new markets and new industries.

The real problem facing the world is massive environmental degradation. Look after the environment and carbon emissions will look after themselves.

The acceptance of an ideology without action means nothing. Buying the Independant will not save the planet. I'm bored of carbon and I'm bored of bullshit.

steve maclintock

What Really Causes Climate Change?
by Laurence Hecht
Dynamics of Earth-Sun orbital relationships, and not statisti- we have just presented. He might also argue that the recent
cal trends in greenhouse gases, are the principal cause of cli- decades’ warming trend—that is an upward trend of about
mate change, as the past 2-million-year record of Ice Ages one-half degree celsius in the global averaged temperature,
demonstrates. Although these facts are known to every com- most of it over the oceans at night—“proves” his case.
petently trained climate scientist, they do not seem ever to How does the informed citizen decide? Is he forced to
have penetrated the cranium of Al Gore. Consider first these choose between competing trend lines, as in a typical modern
items: investment prospectus, hoping that what is going up now will
continue to rise, or what is falling, fall?
• Early in February, storms dumped more than 12 feet Fortunately, there is a science of climate which can tell us
of snow on upstate Redfield, N.Y., breaking the state some things about our past, and also some things, though not
record of 10 feet 7 inches made just five years earlier. all we would wish to know, about our future prospects. By
• Jan. 3, 2007, a record snowfall buried Anchorage, the word science, we mean here a rational and rigorously
Alaska, accumulating 57.60 inches. established conception of cause. This, as opposed to the cur-
• Jan. 17, 2006 a record snowfall blanketed northwest rent fad of extrapolation from statistical trend lines, a fad
Japan, dropping more than 3 meters of snow on some which has become as wildly popular in the global warming
areas. More than 80 people died. The snow started as in the hedge funds industry. (Indeed, present trends cannot
coming down in December, which was the coldest predict which of these two sources of high-paid employment
December for many areas since 1946. for the statistically inclined shall disappear first.)
• March 2, 2005, temperatures fell to a 100-year low
in Germany. The Swiss capital of Bern registered We Are in an Ice Age
minus 15.6 degrees celsius, its coldest for the season Just 12,000 years ago, the North American continent was
since data began to be collected in 1901. France beat covered by a sheet of ice, from 1 to 2 miles thick, reaching
records set in 1971. down to New York City, and spreading across Pennsylvania,
• Jan. 5, 2001, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Ad- through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and into the prairie states.
ministration (NOAA) scientists announced that the Tongues of the glacier reached down from the Rocky Moun-
U.S. national temperature during the November tains and Appalachian heights at much more southerly locathrough
December two-month period was the coldest tions. As the glacier retreated in the period from approxisuch
period on record. Forty-three states within the mately 10,000 to 8,000 B.C. the landscape we now know
contiguous U.S. recorded below average tempera- was formed—the Great Lakes, the upper Ohio and Missouri
tures during the November-December period. Rivers, the lakes dotting the northern tier, all of which had
• Aug. 25, 1999, Mt. Baker, Washington set a record been buried under ice for 100,000 years. A similar situation
for the most snowfall ever measured in the United prevailed over northern Europe and Russia, with the differStates
in a single season (1140 inches), NOAA re- ence that the ice had retreated about 1,000 years earlier than
ported. the North American Laurentide ice sheet.1
The huge volume of water tied up in these ice sheets had
Thanks to a $6-billion a year government-funded “climate come mostly from the oceans. Sea levels during the period of
industry,” whose mission is to convince you that globalwarm- extended glaciation were 200 to 400 feet lower than today’s,
ing is here, you’ve probably forgotten many of these events. as the recent evidence of ancient cities found underwater off
Yet vivid images of lonely polar bears floating on ice, and the Indian coastline has again confirmed.
Inuits telling of warmer than usual summers, haunt your imag- We know these things from the work of geologists and
ination. Such is the power of advertising over an audience
little schooled in climate science. 1. Laurence Hecht, “The Coming (or Present) Ice Age,” 21st Century Science
No doubt, a resourceful opponent might assemble anec- & Technology, Winter 1993-1994, pp. 22-35. www.21stcenturysciencedotal
evidence of recent warm events to counter the cases tech.com/Articles%202005/ComingPresentIceAge.pdf
6 Science EIR March 2, 2007
in the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth.
At almost the same time, a skilled mathematician from
the University of Belgrade, Milutin Milankovitch (1879-
1958), had independently begun his own investigation of the
astronomical theory of climate. In 1920, after nine years of
work, Milankovitch published a book in the French language,
The Mathematical Theory of Heat Phenomena Produced by
Solar Radiation. Therein he identified the three major cyclical
variables which, some 50 years later, became indisputably
recognized as the principal cause of climate change. When
Ko¨ppen read the book, he sent a postcard to Milankovitch,
and a collaboration developed among the two, and Ko¨ppen’s
son-in-law, the astronomer-geologist and daring polar explorer,
Alfred Wegener.
The essential point of their work was this: The amount of
solar radiation (insolation) reaching the Earth, depends upon
the distance of the Earth from the Sun and on the angle of
incidence of the Sun’s rays upon the Earth’s surface. These
angles and distances vary over long cycles of tens of thousands
of years.
Anastasia Sotiropoulos, based on CLIMAP For a glacier to grow, it is only necessary that the amount
The Northern Hemisphere at the time of the last glacial climax,
about 18,000 years ago.
of snow and ice accumulated over the Winter season not be
melted back by the Sun’s rays during the warmer months. In
the short, cool summers of the high polar latitudes, there may
other specialists over the past two centuries. Most of what or may not be enough solar radiation to melt back the winter’s
we report here was known by the early decades of the 20th accumulation. The small changes in insolation, produced by
Century. Correlation and cross-checking of evidence from the changing orbital relationships, it was thought, might be
North America and Eurasia first showed the simultaneous just enough to change the delicate balance of glacial stability
existence of these huge ice sheets. But soon, new evidence to one of advance. Once the advance starts, the increased
established that there had been not one, but several periods of reflectivity of the ice surface, as compared to sea or land
Northern Hemisphere glaciation. cover, cools the local atmosphere further and causes a self-
Today we know that in the last 800,000 years, eight suc- feeding process of glacial growth and spread. This might excessive
periods of glaciation, each lasting approximately plain the cycles of the Ice Ages.
100,000 years, have occurred. Between many of these glacia- To give an example: As every schoolchild learns, the
tions there occurred a warming period, known as an intergla- yearly variation of the seasons is not caused by the change in
cial and lasting approximately 10,000 to 12,000 years, during the Earth’s distance from the Sun, but by the inclination of
which the ice retreated back to its resting place in Greenland the Earth’s axis, which causes the Sun’s rays to strike the
and the polar regions. All the while, the continent of Antarc- Earth at an oblique angle, in a manner that varies as the Earth
tica remained covered in ice, as it still does today, holding makes its annual path of revolution about the Sun. Were there
now about 90% of the world’s ice at an average thickness of no axial inclination, there would be no difference of seasons
one and-a-quarter miles. and a much slighter variation in temperature from the Equator
to the high latitudes. But the Earth’s axial tilt, known techniThe
Astronomical Determination cally as the obliquity of the ecliptic, changes on a 40,000-year
What was causing the periodic advance and retreat of the cycle from 22 to 24.5 degrees. The more inclined the Earth
glaciers? In 1910, Vladimir Ko¨ppen (1846-1940), a Russian- is, the more extreme are the variations between Summer and
German meteorologist trained in planetary astronomy and Winter, particularly in the high northern latitudes where the
very much acquainted with the work of Kepler, had been cycle of glaciation is to be triggered.
musing over the work of two Alpine glaciologists. In their Apart from obliquity, two other astronomical cycles
extensive field studies, Albrecht Penck and Eduard Bru¨ckner which affect insolation were known:
had identified four separate cycles of glacial advance and • the 26,000-year period of the precession of the equinox,
retreat in the Alps. To try to make sense of their work,Ko¨ppen which, when combined with the advance of the perihelion
took up a hyothesis that had been first proposed in 1830 by (the point at which the Earth is closest in its orbit to the Sun)
Sir John Herschel, that long-term cyclical variations in the produces a 21,000-year cycle;
Earth’s orbital relationship to the Sun would produce changes • the 90,000 to 100,000-year cycle of variation of the
EIR March 2, 2007 Science 7
FIGURE 1
Milankovitch’s Radiation Curve for the Last 190,000 Years
This curve of the fluctuation in intensity of solar radiation over time, depending on the orbital parameters, was reproduced by Ko¨ppen and
Wegener in their pioneering work, Die Klimate der geologischen Vorzeit (The Climates of the Geological Past), published in 1924.
eccentricity of the Earth’s elliptical orbit. young researchers at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty
At the encouragement of Ko¨ppen, Milankovitch calcu- Geological Laboratory.2 There, Hays, Imbrie, and Shackleton
lated the effect of the three astronomical cycles on Northern described the orbital variations as “pacemakers of the Ice
Hemisphere glaciation for 650,000 years into the past and Ages.” The 100,000-year cycle was found to be the strongest,
160,000 years into the future. This came to be known as the a fact which correlated with other evidence suggesting that
Milankovitch-cycle theory of climatic history. Although Mi- the Northern Hemisphere ice sheets had advanced and relankovitch
was still fighting an uphill battle at the time of his treated on a 100,000-year cycle. Within that long cycle, the
death in 1958, within two decades his general theory had evidence showed a 20,000-year cycle of temperature change,
become widely accepted. which was not sufficient to cause full glacial retreat. However
when the two cycles compounded, sometimes amplified by
Pacemaker of the Ice Ages low points in the 40,000-year cycle of obliquity, an intergla-
Much of the corroborating evidence came from the field cial would occur. The ice sheet would melt back and retreat up
of paleobiology. An innovative technique of estimating the to Greenland and far northerly locations. It would be reversed
sea level temperature came from the field of nuclear isotope when the 20,000-year cycle of precession of the equinox
science. Since the 19th Century, biologists had observed reached its maximum, and a new glaciation would initiate.
small sea creatures known as foraminifera, which thrive near The astounding thing about this confirmation of the
the ocean surface, form calcareous shells, and die, depositing Koppen-Wegener-Milankovitch hypothesis, is that it inditheir
fossil shells on the ocean bed in layers known as the cates that we are set for a new advance of the ice sheet.Weare
Globigerina ooze. The ratio of two stable isotopes of oxygen, now about 11,000 to 12,000 years into the recent interglacial.
oxygen-16 and oxygen-18, is very sensitive to the tempera- Obliquity is relatively high at 23.5 degrees, and the Northern
ture of the sea water in which it is dissolved. The temperature Hemisphere Summer is occurring near the point of aphelion,
of sea water at a given time could thus be inferred from the precisely the conditions of reduction in insolation which
relative proportion of these two oxygen isotopes found in the would tend to produce the onset of a glacial event. The only
carbonate shells of these fossilized sea creatures. Analysis, moderating factor among the astronomical determinants is
by these and other means, of deep-sea core samples taken in the eccentricity, which is relatively low. Were the orbital perthe
1970s showed the Milankovitch periodicities of 20,000,
40,000, and 100,000 years, going back for 1.7 million years. 2. J.D. Hays, J. Imbrie, and N.J. Shackelton, 1976. “Variations in the Earth’s
The results were written up in a famous paper by three Orbit: Pacemaker of the Ice Ages,” Science, Vol. 194, pp. 1121-32.
8 Science EIR March 2, 2007
FIGURE 2 FIGURE 3
Obliquity and Intensity of the Sun’s Rays Precession and Location of the Solstice
The precession cycle changes the location on the ellipse where the
Winter and Summer solstices occur. The Summer solstice now
occurs near aphelion, the point at which the Earth is most distant
from the Sun.
term, cyclical variations in the Sun’s output, which may act
as an amplifier of other cycles.3 The most popular theory today
proposes that shifts in the thermohaline circulation, the global
ocean current which circulates cold water from the north AtEven
without a tilt of the axis, the variation in angle of incidence of lantic around the cape of Africa to the northeastern Pacific,
the Sun’s rays (a) would cause the poles to be cooler. Increasing may be the trigger for the sudden changes which bring on the
the angle of obliquity amplifies the effect (b). Ice Ages.
Of all the hypotheses, that of human-produced carbon
dioxide as the forcing mechanism for warming is the most
turbations the sole cause of the glacial cycle, we should be deeply and extensively studied, and by far the most discredseeing
an ice sheet begin to creep across our high northern ited. No other hypothesis rests on such flagrant and lying
latitudes even now. Perhaps we shall. disrespect for data as that illustrated in our accompanying
However, as Milankovitch himself had already recog- piece on the falsification of the historical CO2 record. Dollar
nized, the variations in insolation produced by the orbital for dollar, the American taxpayer has never gotten so little
changes are not enough, in themselves, to drive the enormous and spent so much as on the government’s promotion of the
shift in climate which a glacial onset represents. The orbital hoax known as global warming. NASA Administrator Mike
variations must rather be a pacemaker, a pre-amplifier per- Griffin had the courage to say it. In an interview with the
haps, which drives, or signals, other events still not known. German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Jan. 26, Griffin
Many climatologists have attempted to find those other fac- said that despite an annual investment of $5.5 billion in retors,
and a large and interesting literature on the subject exists, search on planet Earth, “we have yet to find out whether the
much of it compiled by the late Columbia University Profes- present climate change is man-made, or just a short-term vacsor
Rhodes Fairbridge when he edited the Encyclopedia of illation.”
Earth Sciences. The finely tailored suit of global warming has been woven
Attempts include such far-reaching, yet plausible causes with an invisible silk thread. It is time that Congress and the
as changes in the Saturn-Jupiter alignment affecting tectonic American people face up to it, lest they find themselves both
shifts in the Earth’s mantle, the effect of variations in the solar naked and freezing.
wind on weather systems by mediation of changes in cosmic
radiation, volcanic activity, and shifts in Earth’s magnetic
cycles. A large literature also exists on the effect of shorter- 3. For example, the work of Theodore Landscheidt.
EIR March 2, 2007 Science 9

that text is garbled but look at the website where the PDF is intact, I tried to cut'n'paste it in here but it hasn't worked! D'oh!

That article the fucking scumbag conspiracy freak calling himself "Hmmm" pasted up is from the Lyndon Larouche website. They are a horendous neo-nazi, conspiraloon outfit. You may remember the story of a young jewish student Jeremiah Duggan who attended a Larouche conference in Germany not knowing much about them. When they started blaming the jews for everything he stood up and said he was confused because he was jewish. A bit later he phones his mum saying: "Mum, I am in deep trouble." Then they beat the poor kid to death with a blunt instrument and fake a car accident to cover it up. Here's an article in the Observer about it:

 http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/html/observer_250307.htm

People should bare this story in mind when they think the conspialoons are just a bit of a laugh. There are some deeply nasty and dangerous people involved in that scene. The Larouchites are very well funded and I would be very suprised if their fingerprints and cash are all over the 9/11 truth 'movement' as well as the climate change deniers scene by the looks of it.

Wait a minute!! We're supposed to believe that LaRouche killed a Jewish guy because his followers discovered he was Jewish. If that's the case, they'd be killing a lot more Jewish people than Duggan.

Chip Berlet is the one who promotes the idea that LaRouche is a Nazi. So, who funds left-wing Berlet?

Well, Berlet's Political Research Associates gets its money from the Public Welfare Foundation. The Public Welfare Foundation gets its money from the Ford Foundation. So, left-wing Berlet gets his money from those well known radicals, the Ford Foundation. Hmmm. And, of course, we do know that the original Ford was known an anti-semite who was sympathetic to Hitler.

Get's confusing, don't it.

You know I've often wondered where these conspiraloons emerged from over the last few years. They just appeared with an entrenched worldview completely alien to the movements that Indymedia was born out. Yet they are incredibly well financed, with some organisational ability and with an unbelievable cult like sectarianism, viciously attacking anyone that disagrees with them as state agents, Zionists, etc. I don't know the level of involvement the Lyndon LaRouche organisation has in the 9/11 truth movement, either overt or covert, but you can really see the influence of their views. Webster Tarperly, one of the leaders of the 9/11 truth or 'Patriot' movements in the US, is an ex member of the LaRouche organisation, and his worldview is pretty much unchanged.

The organisation's influence certainly makes sense when you think of the constant undercurrents of anti-Semitism you find in 9/11 truth circles, it's also interesting that "insidejob", one of the most persistent of the conspiracy theorists that plague Indymedia, immediately jumps to the defence of LaRouche.

By the way the Jeremiah Duggan story has been followed by numerous papers in the UK, The Observer, Guardian, Mirror, I don't believe 'Chip Bartlet' writes for any them

I won't even begin to go into details on the hideous LaRouche organisation but they are a dangerous, vicious, paranoid, openly anti-Semitic, conspiracy theorist cult who believe in the god like status of their leader and try and destroy anyone they view as their opponents.

Sounds pretty representative of the 9/11 'truth' lot.