....is that someone can rehash the same drivel and try and pass it it off as something new.

Good to see Micheal Meacher and David Shayler representing Britain in the world sanity olympics. Such a pity that Lord Such died, he would have been a worthy recruit. Still, a worthwhile diversion for anyone who is scared of doing any real political work.

Agree with the poster -- this is maybe the best 911 truth video out there.

"Good to see Micheal Meacher and David Shayler representing Britain in the world sanity olympics."

Did you criticise Michael Meachers sanity when he was a cabinet minister ? If so, please provide a link. If not, it seems suspicious to criticise someone as mad only when they disagree with your views. And Shayler, mad as a hatter ? What does that say about his former employers ?

The film obviously just cobbled together a lot of well known 'names' who have investigated this issue, stuck a bit of music on it and spliced some footage together. And no criticism from me, except sometimes the music was a bit distracting. I don't think this is the major issue in the world but we all have our own priorities. I do think the official story is an obvious lie, that the Neo-Cons are proven to be morally capable of this, and that the fact there is so much anti-911er propaganda from known Security Services sources indicates that they may just be onto something.

Guido last time we talked about this you admitted you hadn't actually watched any of the good 9/11 films.

If you do ever decide to look at some of the best material the 9/11 truth movement has produced I'd suggest watching some of these films:

- 9/11 Press for Truth: The best first film to watch, if you don't think there is any reason to doubt the US government's inconsistent story about 9/11 and you think anyone questioning it is crazy then start here -- it's the story of the fight that some relatives undertook to get an enquiry and their dissapointment that their questions (  http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html ) were not answered:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3979568779414136481

- Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime: If you have no interest in the structural failure of the 3 skyscrapers then this film is right up yourt street, it deals with the links with the intelligance agancies and the alleged hijackers:  http://911blogger.com/2006/05/video-everybodys-gotta-learn-sometime.html |  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757267008400743688

- September 11 Revisited and Improbable Collapse both deal with the structural failure of the skyscrapers, both are very good if you want to know more about the controlled demolition:  http://www.911revisited.com/video.html |  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4026073566596731782

- War and Globalization - The Truth Behind September 11: If you want geopolitics and the presentation isn't so important then Michel Chossudovsky's lecture from 2003 is very good:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3117338213439292490

- We Were Also Killed on 9-11.. Avenge Us: If health and safety issues get you going then this very moving film is worth watching, "1st responders speak out about the sick and dying in NYC due to the toxic cloud that the EPA refused to warn about, saying the air was safe to breathe":  http://www.archive.org/details/wewerealsokilledver2

- 9-11 OPEN YOUR EYES THE WAR ON TERROR IS A LIE: If you want one intense film that packs a lot into a short space of time then this edit of the footage from the 9-11 International Inquiry in Toronto, 2004, is very good:  http://www.archive.org/details/911o

- Oil, Smoke and Mirrors: If peak oil is your thing then this is one for you, it's the source of the Shayler and Meacher clips in the video linked to above:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8677389869548020370 |  http://www.oilsmokeandmirrors.com/

- Proof of Controlled Demolition 911: If you have an architectural background then Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth might be what get's you going:  http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=richard%20gage%20911 |  http://www.ae911truth.org/

My main thing is geopolitics and Shadowplay looks like it might be the best 9/11 film yet when it comes out:  http://911blogger.com/node/8911 |  http://shadowplay.info/

Shadowplay features interviews the 3 people who are really very good on 9/11 and it's context:

"In the wake of 9/11, Islamic terrorists are allegedly present in different parts of the world, so the United States has to go after these terrorists. And they say, "Well, bin Laden is there, we have to go after him," or his "group" is there, so that the pretext of 9/11 is essentially, to intervene militarily under the pretext that they're going after the terrorists. So they'll send in Special Forces into the Philippines, into Somalia, into the Sudan, into various countries where there are strategic interests, where there's oil, or where there are minerals."
- Michel Chossudovsky -  http://globalresearch.ca/

"9/11 occurs at a particular time, namely, when the system is without its prior rationale for its vast military undertakings. The collapse of the Soviet Union left the US capital without its justification for trillions upon trillions of dollars being expended upon arms and intelligence services and the state apparatus as such."
- Ralph Schoenman -  http://takingaimradio.com/

"There is this concerted effort to manufacture the threat, and we have think-tanks, we've had governments, policy makers, and academics trying to create this idea that we are fundamentally threatened by this amorphous network of Islamic radicals that are out to get us."
- Nafeez Ahmed -  http://nafeez.blogspot.com/

But it's Shadowplay is not out yet... so best watch the other films first...

Guido, you are in denial. Why don't you actually take on board the info within this film, and remove the cynic-spectacles? Building 7 was "pulled" by Larry Silverstein, the owner (his words, not mine). How would demolition charges be pre-laid in the building in the short time of 7 hours (the time from when the twin towers toppled). Oh, yes, that's right, they were pre-laid in the event of an scenerio like this actually occurring. Must have been the company in charge of the drill that arranged it then.

Where to start? So much junk, so little time.

Anyone who is really interested in the debate will want to look not just at the ever-resourceful novella that is Loose Change, but the other side of the coin.

www.debunking911.com

www.911myths.com

But let's take a quick run through today's little fabrications.

For a start Silverstein did not tell the entire world on tv that he brought down WTC7 using explosives. Take a look at the full quote, instead of just selective parts to suit your agenda.

Then we have the amazing incredible collapse, allegedly completely impossible and yet the Truth movement can only get half a dozen (yup, 6) engineers and architects who seem to agree with them. On the other hand we have papers from the likes of Sheffield Uni, Edinburgh Uni, and Aukland which all pretty much confirm the NIST explanation.

But what the Truth Movement don't tell you are their wilder theories. No planes (remote controlled cruise missiles, apparently). Energy beam weapons (Judy Wood, a leading member of the Movement). Planting aircraft parts at the Pentagon and paying off 200-odd witnesses. Steve Jones falling out with Feltzer. Feltzer falling out with Holmgren. And so on.

What a waste of space; heaven only knows what it's doing on this site.

So, Architect, some would wonder why it is that someone who peddles the official, Bush, Neo-Con conspiracy theory on 911 is interested in a site that deals with alternative news and comment.

So, Mr I'm-so-radical-not, do you have any difference with what the Bush supporters say about 911 and how it's been politically used?

insidejob,

you seem to think that indymedia should support conspiracy theories as they are radical and anyone who doesn't adhere to this line is a supporter of bush?

...how to respond to such drivel. There is absolutely nothing radical about supporting the 911 conspiracy theories, indeed such support is the complete opposite of constructive radical work as it diverts attention away from where it should really be placed (US and british imperialism, class divisions, racism etc). support for conspiracy theories is reactionary not radical.

By diverting attention from foreign and domestic policy such theories simply allow the bush administration to get off scott free. There is more than enough ammunition is the real world to critique the actions of states without resorting to conspiracy rubbish which governments are more than keen to condone as it is perfectly harmless and they,of course, realise that it removes eyes from the real crimes that they are committing.

theories such as this are nothing more than self indulgent crap used by persons to try to create a name for themselves and are of no practical purpose for the many people suffering in this world as a result of the REAL actions of states.

you seem to think that indymedia should support conspiracy theories as they are radical and anyone who doesn't adhere to this line is a supporter of bush?

As it states in the film conspiracy theory is a derogatory expression. good for all the red neck consumerbots
that use it .

...how to respond to such drivel. There is absolutely nothing radical about supporting the 911 conspiracy theories, indeed such support is the complete opposite of constructive radical work as it diverts attention away from where it should really be placed (US and british imperialism, class divisions, racism etc). support for conspiracy theories is reactionary not radical.

Drivel ? diverts attention away from what ? you must be about to fall out of your tree.
U.S an british imperialism, class divisions and racism ect, did one of your mates tell you about this shit ?
You mean mass murder and genocide mass rape and the plunder of other countries natural resources.
This is what british and american foriegn policy has been about for centuries.
The 3500 victims of 911 are nothing cpompared to the millions killed in Iraq and the millions more that will be Killed in Iran.

By diverting attention from foreign and domestic policy such theories simply allow the bush administration to get off scott free. There is more than enough ammunition is the real world to critique the actions of states without resorting to conspiracy rubbish which governments are more than keen to condone as it is perfectly harmless and they,of course, realise that it removes eyes from the real crimes that they are committing.

I bet your real good at pulling your plonker (fucking wanker)
You should take a trip to a country that is run by an american puppet dictator and check out what the value of a poor mans life is there.. it aint worth shit ..

theories such as this are nothing more than self indulgent crap used by persons to try to create a name for themselves and are of no practical purpose for the many people suffering in this world as a result of the REAL actions of states.

You can't fool all of the people all of the time but some folks are just there to be fooled.

I agree Steve, another thing to consider is that the U.S. government actively propergated the Roswell consiracy. Why? - well for one reason the real downed alien craft was a spy balloon. other consequences of the conspiracy were: Russia bringing out "footage" of downed alien craft (In an attempt to say "hey we have alien technology too"), Loads of people being diverted into a bogus idea, Area 51 should have been monitored for it's military capability, and crimes against humanity, instead it was besieged by UFO nuts. job done.

So you 911 fools go on, it's history repeating and you play into their hands.

"the Truth movement can only get half a dozen (yup, 6) engineers and architects who seem to agree with them"

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/371895.html?c=on#c174856

6? Where did you get six from?

I count 17 Architects (Degreed & Licensed), 17 Architectural Professionals (Degreed) and 29 Engineers of various sorts, which is over ten times six:  http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php

"find a single credible structural engineer, architect, fire engineer, or demolition expert - real ones, mind, not the pretendy guys of ST911 - who casts serious doubt on the official explanation"

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/08/348600.html?c=on#c154530

Of course now that some building industry professionals have come out to question the nature of the structural failure of the three skyscrapers it makes no difference to "Architect" because he is totally committed to supporting and defending the fabricated pretext for the "War on Terror", in fact there is no evidence that he does anything else.

"What a waste of space; heaven only knows what it's doing on this site. "

One thing that has struck me odd about the people who post against 911 theories is that they always claim it is a 'waste of space'. Yet people like Architect don't actually post about anything else except 911. If they think it is a waste of space suurely they would ignore it and post about what they are interested in, instead of filling up the newswire with dismissive comments.

Well I suppose I could spend hours viewing the websites advertised by C above. Then even more hours looking at the counter conspiracy sites listed by the other post. Or alternatively I could could carry on doing my small part to provide an alternative to the corporate media and just waste a whole 30 seconds writing this, and pasting the words of wisdom below which pretty much sum up my own thoughts on the subject.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to have an endless circular argument with some evangelical baptists about the existance of god (not).



----------------------------------------------------------------



From Schnews:

TRUTH-ACHE
On the fifth anniversary, SchNEWS gingerly dips a toe into the murky waters of the great 9-11 debate...

It’s the big fight over ‘the truth’. In the blue corner we have the US government’s official version of 9-11 events and in all the other corners we have proponents of various ‘conspiracy’ theories. But in these days of governments caught telling outright lies about WMDs etc, and a massive groundswell of cynicism about any official pronouncement - just what is a conspiracy theory? What happens when ‘common sense’ is hijacked and the fringe goes mainstream? And does it matter anyway?

The self-proclaimed 9-11 truth movement, in many ways a genuine grassroots movement (or cult?), is growing and its ideas are gradually filtering into the mainstream. No anti-war event is complete now without a new 9-11 conspiracy DVD and flyers to some new talk / book launch - and our inbox often overflows with new ‘revelations’. Every possible, and some quite impossible angles are covered - from the relatively mainstream question marks hanging over the US administration’s possible advance knowledge of the plot, to off-planet assertions about holograms, missiles and alien DNA. This kind of thing will always delight the ‘Elvis faked the moon landings with a black helicopter’ Internet crowd, but with polls showing that a third of Americans and nearly half of New Yorkers believing US officials either knew about the attacks or were actively involved, this represents a major uprising of disbelief. This has forced the US govt into producing a series of rebuttals, asserting their ‘truth’ and challenging the accusations.

The two main strands of theorising could be summed up as “they knew in advance” and “the whole thing was faked”. At the more plausible end we have the idea that the Neo-Cons had anticipated or were complicit in the events of 9-11. In any case, the event enabled them to put into practice an agenda for global domination hatched years before. It is all laid out in the year 2000 paper, ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses’ published by the Project for a New American Century, a think-tank whose members included Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz (See SchNEWS 387). It talked about the fact that a “catastrophic and catalyzing event - a new Pearl Harbor” would be needed to transform the public’s attitude to war. Certainly there were no flies on the Cheney-Bush axis when it came to taking advantage of 9-11’s propaganda value, and even now Bush routinely invokes it as an emblem of America’s need to be militarily aggressive.

At the other end of the reality spectrum, are those that are sure that all the buildings were pre-primed with explosives, that all the Jews who worked there were given advanced warning, that the planes never existed and were in fact holograms disguising missiles etc etc. The trouble with all these theories is that they require mind-boggling numbers of people to have been ‘in on it’. It seems unlikely that the clique responsible for the disaster in Iraq could have organised something so slickly. And why would they need to go to the trouble? Two planes striking the towers would have been more than enough to serve as the big catalytic terrorist event... And if you were orchestrating the whole thing, why bother faking it with missiles or holograms anyway? Just use real planes... much simpler.

Perhaps this is why too much speculation on these points leads inevitably to a paranoiac world view where only secret cabals who control everything from behind the scenes could pull the wool over everone’s eyes in such an all-encompassing way.


The ‘truths’ arrived at by some of these theories are so way out there, we began to wonder if they’d been spread deliberately to sow confusion, making it easier for the authorities to discredit the whole 9-11 debate by association. Conspiracy on conspiracy – where does it end?

There’s no doubt that big questions about the role of the US government remain unanswered (for example, relationships with Saudi elites), but it seems they’re in danger of being drowned out by the clamour of outright lunacy.

Poster-boy of the UK branch of the 9-11 Truth movement is former MI5 agent David Shayler. An acknowledged ‘insider’, he must have seemed a great asset to the fraternity. But at the Big Green Gathering this year, SchNEWS were confronted with the spectacle of a man who appeared to have swallowed and regurgitated the entire works of David “blame the lizards” Icke. No stone was left turned, no subject demystified as Dave told us how aliens have been negotiating with our government and 500 abductees are the only people who’ve got any real idea about all this 9-11 stuff. That includes 7/7 and 11/7 (date of Mumbai bombings by the way) - all evidence of an underground plot by a ‘shadow Zionist secret government’. Amongst other interesting points conjured forth were that the Royal family is descended from multi-dimensional Annunaki lizards (and ‘flaws’ in evolutionary theory prove it!) Riveting though this stuff is, it is, unfortunately, a load of bollocks.

On the other hand, the documented existence of a shadow world of CIA mounted black-ops and coups makes the idea that 9-11 was a ‘false flag’ operation seem within the realms of possibility. American intelligence has a long and bloody history of covert operations, instigating coups and funding opposition against those that challenge their authority. Coups such as the one on the less well remembered September 11th - 1973, when the CIA helped overthrow the democratically elected leader of Chile, Salvador Allende, and usher in a brutal military dictatorship. Doubts over 9-11, the cornerstone of the US’s ideological crusade, make it easier to appreciate that it’s just all in a days work for the US to fund and arm people like Saddam and the anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan, which gave rise to Al-Qaeda.

The fact that these theories are catching on so widely is partly due to the huge growth of scepticism about the role of governments in the entire War on Terror™. In this country we already know that our government plotted the war on Iraq well in advance, lied about Iraq’s WMDs and engaged in a systematic propaganda campaign to support the invasion. We know that our government, in alliance with the US, is engaged in secret renditions, torture and aggressive war. Public awareness of the true nature of power has probably never been higher - and the fact that so many are willing to believe that the US government may have slaughtered its own citizens shows how the ideological ground is shifting. It’s not, in the end, the truth of the allegations but the effect they’re having that’s important.

The 9-11 truth movement clearly sees the anti-war crowd as fertile recruiting ground (maybe we should return the compliment). They argue that proving 9-11 a hoax should be the main focus of any faction opposing the Neo-Con-men. But in reality, whether or not 9-11 was orchestrated, we should be concentrating on the broader US-led capitalist agendas, and their catastrophic consequences. 9-11 was a symptom rather than a cause of a ‘big picture’ which doesn’t need science fiction to explain it. World power is not a neat pyramid structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top. It makes more sense to see a range of competing power blocks, alliances and cartels in a shifting, perpetual power play – with governments, nationalist and business interests doing what they’ve always done, battling for control of land, resources, workforces and populations. There is one conspiracy that doesn’t lurk in smoky rooms behind closed doors – it’s called global capitalism.


From Monbiot:


9/11 fantasists pose a mortal danger to popular oppositional campaigns

George Monbiot, Tuesday February 20, 2007, The Guardian

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2017006,00.html
'You did this hit piece because your corporate masters instructed you to. You are a controlled asset of the new world order ... bought and paid for." "Everyone has some skeleton in the cupboard. How else would MI5 and special branch recruit agents?" "Shill, traitor, sleeper", "leftwing gatekeeper", "accessory after cthe fact", "political whore of the biggest conspiracy of them all".

These are a few of the measured responses to my article, a fortnight ago, about the film Loose Change, which maintains that the United States government destroyed the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. Having spent years building up my leftwing credibility on behalf of my paymasters in MI5, I've blown it. I overplayed my hand, and have been exposed, like Bush and Cheney, by a bunch of kids with laptops. My handlers are furious.

I believe that George Bush is surrounded by some of the most scheming, devious, ruthless men to have found their way into government since the days of the Borgias. I believe that they were criminally negligent in failing to respond to intelligence about a potential attack by al-Qaida, and that they have sought to disguise their incompetence by classifying crucial documents.

I believe, too, that the Bush government seized the opportunity provided by the attacks to pursue a longstanding plan to invade Iraq and reshape the Middle East, knowing full well that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Bush deliberately misled the American people about the links between 9/11 and Iraq and about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. He is responsible for the murder of many tens of thousands of Iraqis.

But none of this is sufficient. To qualify as a true opponent of the Bush regime, you must also now believe that it is capable of magic. It could blast the Pentagon with a cruise missile while persuading hundreds of onlookers that they saw a plane. It could wire every floor of the twin towers with explosives without attracting attention and prime the charges (though planes had ploughed through the middle of the sequence) to drop each tower in a perfectly timed collapse. It could make Flight 93 disappear into thin air, and somehow ensure that the relatives of the passengers collaborated with the deception. It could recruit tens of thousands of conspirators to participate in these great crimes and induce them all to have kept their mouths shut, for ever.

In other words, you must believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their pals are all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful, despite the fact that they were incapable of faking either weapons of mass destruction or any evidence at Ground Zero that Saddam Hussein was responsible. You must believe that the impression of cackhandedness and incompetence they have managed to project since taking office is a front. Otherwise you are a traitor and a spy.

Why do I bother with these morons? Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress, that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy, that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the "9/11 truth movement" is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward's fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don't have the stomach to engage in real political fights.

Let me give you an example. The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago generated 777 posts on the Guardian Comment is Free website, which is almost a record. Most of them were furious. The response from a producer of the film, published last week, attracted 467. On the same day the Guardian published my article about a genuine, demonstrable conspiracy: a spy network feeding confidential information from an arms control campaign to Britain's biggest weapons manufacturer, BAE Systems. It drew 60 responses. The members of the 9/11 cult weren't interested. If they had been, they might have had to do something. The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its horde of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the "truth" movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don't exist, they can't fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow.

Many of those who posted responses on Comment is Free contend that Loose Change (which was neatly demolished in the BBC's film The Conspiracy Files on Sunday night) is a poor representation of the conspiracists' case. They urge us instead to visit websites like 911truth.org, physics911.net and 911scholars.org, and to read articles by the theology professor David Ray Griffin and the physicist Steven E Jones.

Concerned that I might have missed something, I have now done all those things, and have come across exactly the same concatenation of ill-attested nonsense as I saw in Loose Change. In all these cases you will find wild supposition raised to the status of incontrovertible fact, rumour and confusion transformed into evidence, selective editing, the citation of fake experts, the dismissal of real ones. Doubtless I will now be told that these are not the true believers: I will need to dive into another vat of tripe to get to the heart of the conspiracy.

The 9/11 truthers remind me of nothing so much as the climate change deniers, cherry-picking their evidence, seizing any excuse for ignoring the arguments of their opponents. Witness the respondents to my Loose Change column who maintain that the magazine Popular Mechanics, which has ripped the demolition theories apart, is a government front. They know this because one of its editors, Benjamin Chertoff, is the brother/nephew/first cousin of the US homeland security secretary Michael Chertoff. (They are, as far as Benjamin can discover, unrelated, but what does he know?)

Like the millenarian fantasies which helped to destroy the Levellers as a political force in the mid-17th century, this crazy distraction presents a mortal danger to popular oppositional movements. If I were Bush or Blair, nothing would please me more than to see my opponents making idiots of themselves, while devoting their lives to chasing a phantom. But as a controlled asset of the new world order, I would say that, wouldn't I? It's all part of the plot.

----------------------------------------------------------



Enough said, I'm outta here......

P.S. Remember kids Don't take the streets, don't organise any direct action don't try and build mass movements. That's what Bush and Blair want you to do. Actually what really scares them is the thought that you might all be sat behind computer screens having endless unresolvable debates about controlled demolitions, plane like holograms and enormous world controling lizards, the truth is out there.......

"Well I suppose I could spend hours viewing the websites advertised by C above"

Why allow yourself to be exposed to the arguments that the 9/11 truth movement are putting forwards -- you clearly know you can better refute everything they are saying if you *don't* look at what they are saying...

"Or alternatively I could... just waste a whole 30 seconds writing this, and pasting the words of wisdom below..."

Yes, that is better, no danger that your preconcieved view will be potentially challenged if you do this and isn't it wonderfully easy to be able to copy and paste the writing of others, it saves on so much thinking.

This is typical of course -- this is the attitude that almost *everyone* involved with the 9/11 truth movement started with, but then, one by one, people thought "well, *perhaps* it is worth spending a couple of hours looking at this stuff" and then, lo-and-behold, it turns out that some of it is quite convincing...

What follows generally is some time spent online looking at the debunking sites, looking at the disinformation sites and the decent sites and then *more* activism, not less and in addition most people who think that 9/11 was some kind of inside job don't give up on the activism they were doing before.

George Monbiot believes that Bush and co "were criminally negligent in failing to respond to intelligence about a potential attack by al-Qaida, and that they have sought to disguise their incompetence by classifying crucial documents" -- so he doesn't believe the official story, in fact he is a LIHOP'er -- are you?

If you haven't come across the LIHOP (Letting It Happen On Purpose) and MIHOP (Making It Happen On Purpose) abbreviations see: WHAT IS YOUR "HOP" LEVEL?  http://summeroftruth.org/lihopmihopnohop.html

The next logical step would be for George Monbiot to want to see these classified documents opened up and criminal proceedings started against Bush and the "scheming, devious, ruthless" people that surround him, perhaps the first step in this would be a new independent enquiry? This is the minimal demand of the truth movement... (and this is of course a mistake, see "Don't piss up a rope":  http://www.archive.org/details/rschoenmanchicago06 ).

Of course none of the films I linked to above have anything in them about lizards (though they are not perfect and have some mistakes) -- does the "lizard" mud stick? Perhaps some who are more open to disinformation do believe this nonsense and write off the 9/11 truth movement as a result, and afterall this is the point of it...

Guido do you have any plans for Tuesday July 10th? Why don't you go to the London Indymedia screening of Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime [  http://911blogger.com/2006/05/video-everybodys-gotta-learn-sometime.html |  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757267008400743688 ] --  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2007/02/363720.html

Perhaps I'll make it to this screening and we can go for a pint in the KPH or somewhere afterwards...

"I count 17 Architects (Degreed & Licensed), 17 Architectural Professionals (Degreed) and 29 Engineers of various sorts, which is over ten times six"

Fuck me, thats 63!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Architects USA.com lists over 20,000 architect firms in the USA. Lets say for arguments sake that this is all of them. For arguments sake lets keep it at 20,000. Some of these firms will be massive and employ hundreds of Degreed, Degreed and Licensed and professional engineers. But lets say again for arguments sake that they all employ just two. So out of 40,000 potential qualified dissenting voices what percentage is 63?

0.1575%

Hang on a minute. Thats not fair. Afterall the evil USA oil empire has its spies everywhere. How many potential architectural whistel blowers have been silenced? Or threatened?? Or Disappeared??? Or are just too plain scared to come forward????+?

Lets now assume that despite the shock and horror of 9/11, despite freedom of speech in the 'land of the free', 9 out of every ten potential professional voices has been silenced. Well now we are closer to the truth.....

It seems that a whopping 1.575% of American architects think that the official story is fake. Those building-collapsing neo cons must be shitting it.

increasing

Of course, the most damning fact is that the unelected Regime of War Criminals, Profiteers, Fascists, and LIARS has been completely incapable of supporting its own Conspiracy Theory with evidence. Even their FBI Director at the time admits there is no hard evidence linking 'al Qaeda' to the crime.

It doesn't really help their case that the most recent "al Qaeda video" was made by Israeli Mossad operative, Adam Gadhan.

There was a time, not long ago, when daring to question the official account of 9/11 was risky business. One was almost guaranteed to be attacked as a "crazy person" or a "traitor" or a "terrorist sympathizer." Times have changed. At this point, less than 20% of the population believes they were given the full truth regarding 9/11. Logically one might ask: "Why is that?"

It wasn't for lack of trying that the government failed in its propaganda campaign. It wasn't for lack of "helping hands" in the mainstream media. (Though even that support has begun to fall apart.) No, it was one thing and one thing only that caused hundreds of millions of American citizens to openly question the official account of 9/11; the evidence.

In short, the evidence that we have been shamelessly lied to regarding the events of 9/11 is irrefutable. There is an enormous body of circumstantial evidence, there is an enormous body of physical evidence, and there is an enormous body of historical evidence. Perhaps most damning (at this point) is the ongoing cover up itself. -The deliberate attempt to obstruct an open discussion of the facts. Evidence of that grows by the hour, but not to worry...

If you want to see how the investigation into the attacks of 9/11 was obstructed at every turn; simply watch 9/11 Press for Truth.

If you want to learn the history of government sponsored "false flag" terrorism, simply watch Terrorstorm.

If you want to see the evidence of controlled demolition (all of which has been completely ignored by the mainstream media and government talking heads) check out September 11 Revisited, or this segment of 911 Mysteries, or this segment from Rise of the Police State.

If you want to know what an absolute fraud the "investigation" we finally got was, you can get started with just a handful of issues. Like:

1. One of the most damning pieces of physical evidence regarding the events of 9/11 (the collapse of WTC 7) wasn't even mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. How could any report claiming to provide "the fullest possible account" of the events of 9/11 ignore the unexpected free-fall collapse of a 47 story office tower? Is it because, to this day, nobody can explain how it fell? Is it because it wasn't struck by any planes or burned with any jet fuel (the magic formula that supposedly brought down the twin towers?) Is it because pools of molten metal remained in its basement for weeks and partially evaporated steel beams were found in its wreckage? (It is physically impossible for burning office materials and diesel fuel to liquefy structural steel; let alone evaporate it into a gas.) How did "The Commission" deal with these smoking gun issues that clearly contradict the official account? Simple; they ignored them.



2. How about those towers? You know, the two 110 story buildings constructed with an outer shell of perimeter columns and an ENORMOUS inner array of core columns that supported the buildings' vertical loads. Of those towers, the commission report claimed "exterior walls bore most of the weight of the building. The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft." This is an inexcusable inaccuracy that any "investigator" with an Internet connection and 5 minutes can easily prove wrong. And it should be noted; any claim or "theory" of how the towers collapsed based on this erroneous "hollow shaft" model is fatally flawed. Who in their right mind can take an "official report" like this seriously? If they got something this simple wrong, what else did they miss?



3. Lets not forget "The Commission" said there was "no credible evidence that any person in the United States gave the hijackers substantial financial assistance. Similarly, we have seen no evidence that any foreign government-or foreign government official-supplied any funding." Hmm, interesting. How about the Pakistani ISI chief who wired $100,000 to the alleged "lead hijacker" Mohamed Atta? Indian intelligence has verified this. And there has been no evidence to refute it. Is that worth looking into? -And how about Sibel Edmonds? Why was she ignored and then gagged under the veil of "National Security." Better yet, how about we just have her testify in open hearings about "money trails" and where they lead to in our government?

And if all this isn't enough, maybe the few remaining skeptics would like to hear from some Senior Military, Intelligence, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials who question the validity of the 9/11 Commission Report. No problem. Start here.

-So it's true. Times have changed and the people (for good reason) no longer believe the lies they've been fed about 9/11. We've woken up to the level of corruption in our government and the official lie (by all practical means of determination) is in critical condition and not expected to recover.

This can only mean one thing. An Independent investigation into the attacks of 9/11 WILL BE conducted. And this time, it isn't going to be handful of citizens asking questions and demanding answers; it's going to be 80% of the country. And this time, you won't so easily ignore and whitewash the sensitive issues, because an educated citizenry is not so easily fooled. And this time, those who have stonewalled, lied, manipulated, covered up and acted in a criminally negligent manner will be held accountable for their actions.

To those in power who've forgotten the reality of their position in government, YOU SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Once again, you're on notice to stop ignoring our demands for a new investigation. This issue isn't going to go away, and your refusal to address it will cost you dearly.

And to those of you with something to hide; perhaps now would be a good time to "lawyer up" and "cut a deal." The game is over.
J. Plummer 3.23.07

Many of the author's points are supported by evidence linked to within the original story. Here's the link:

 http://stopthelie.com/the_911_lie_is_in_critical_condition.html

Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11
by Bill Christison
www.dissidentvoice.org
August 14, 2006

However horrendous the crimes of two of the world’s great liars and terrorists in Gaza and Lebanon, it is imperative that we not let the deeds of Ehud Olmert and George W. Bush distract us from another recent event.

The U.S. alliance with Israel and the power of the lobby that lets Israel so easily influence U.S. foreign policy have been major factors in allowing the monstrous slaughter of innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon. What is happening in these lands may also encourage Olmert and Bush to start new hostilities in Syria and heavy, possibly nuclear, bombings in Iran -- and this entire mess of neocon pottage may lead to a new World War and clashes of civilizations and religious fundamentalisms that these two wretched politicians seem quite literally to want to impose on the rest of us. It’s a tough case to make that anything else going on in the world -- anywhere -- could possibly be of equal importance.

But on July 29 and 30, and then again on August 1, something else happened that increasing numbers of people believe is of equal importance. On these dates C-SPAN rebroadcast a panel discussion, held originally in late June, sponsored by an organization called the American Scholars’ Symposium to discuss what really happened on September 11, 2001. Held in Los Angeles, the meeting lasted two days, and the C-SPAN rebroadcast covered one almost two-hour wrap-up session. The meeting was attended by 1,200 people interested in hearing something other than the official story of 9/11. The TV audience was evidently large enough to spur C-SPAN to broadcast the panel discussion five separate times in four days.

Even a month late, this is a lot of airtime for stories that many people call conspiracy theories -- and for which many others use nastier descriptions. It is possible that the head of C-SPAN, Brian Lamb, so strongly disbelieves the conspiracy theories that he felt giving them ample publicity would discredit them further. It is equally possible, however, that Lamb, who seems honestly to believe in presenting various sides of most issues as fairly as he can (although not always giving every side equal time), tried to do exactly that on the many legitimate questions raised about what actually happened on September 11. In any event, C-SPAN has made a major effort to bring information on the principal theories about 9/11 to the mainstream U.S. media. Lamb cannot be blamed for the coincidence that recent heavy military activity in Gaza and Lebanon is nearly drowning out his efforts.

Let’s address the real issues here. Why is it important that we not let the so-called conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 be drowned out? After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them in recent months, and have also carefully watched several videos that are available on the subject. I have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. The items below highlight the major questions surrounding 9/11 but do not constitute a detailed recounting of the evidence available.

ONE: An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. Hard physical evidence supports this conclusion; among other things, the hole in the Pentagon was considerably smaller than an airliner would create. The building was thus presumably hit by something smaller, possibly a missile, or a drone or, less possibly, a smaller manned aircraft. Absolutely no information is available on what happened to the original aircraft (American Airlines Flight 77), the crew, the “hijackers,” and the passengers. The “official story,” as it appeared in The 9/11 Commission Report simply says, “At 9:37:46, American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, traveling at approximately 530 miles per hour. All on board, as well as many civilians and military personnel in the building, were killed.” This allows readers to assume that pieces of the aircraft and some bodies of passengers were found in the rubble of the crash, but information so far released by the government does not show that such evidence was in fact found. The story put out by the Pentagon is that the plane and its passengers were incinerated; yet video footage of offices in the Pentagon situated at the edge of the hole clearly shows office furniture undamaged. The size of the hole in the Pentagon wall still remains as valid evidence and so far seems irrefutable.

TWO: The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them. A plane did not hit Building 7 of the Center, which also collapsed. All three were most probably destroyed by controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11. A substantial volume of evidence shows that typical residues and byproducts from such demolition charges were present in the three buildings after they collapsed. The quality of the research done on this subject is quite impressive.

If the judgments made on Points ONE and TWO above are correct, they raise many “Who done it” questions and strongly suggest that some unnamed persons or groups either inside or with ties to the government were actively creating a “Pearl Harbor” event, most likely to gain public support for the aggressive foreign policies that followed -- policies that would, first, “transform” the entire Middle East, and second, expand U.S. global domination.

These first two points provide the strongest evidence available that the “official story” of 9/11 is not true. If the government could prove this evidence false, and its own story on these points correct, all the other data and speculation supporting the conspiracy theories would be undermined. It has provided no such proof and no answers to growing questions.

Other, less important points supporting the theories include the following.

THREE: For at least one hour and 45 minutes after the hijacking of the first aircraft was known, U.S. air defense authorities failed to take meaningful action. This strikes some “conspiracy theorists” as valid evidence that the U.S. Air Force was deliberately restrained from acting. Maybe so, but my own skepticism tells me that the inefficiency of U.S. defense forces is likely to be just as plausible an explanation.

FOUR: Some of the theorists believe that the 19 named hijackers were not actually the hijackers. One claim is that the names of the hijackers were not on the manifests of any of the four aircraft.

FIVE: None of the 19 hijackers’ bodies were ever autopsied (since they were allegedly totally destroyed in the crashes, including even the people in the Pennsylvania crash).

SIX: At least five of the alleged hijackers (or persons with identical names) have since turned up alive in the Middle East. Nonetheless, the FBI has never bothered to re-investigate or revise the list of hijackers. Does this suggest that the FBI knows that no one in the administration is interested in reopening any further investigations?

SEVEN: Numerous pilots have allegedly told the theorists that none of the 19 hijackers could have flown the airliners well enough to hit the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon with as much accuracy as was displayed. The debate on this issue simply raises more doubt about the government’s charge that the people it has named as hijackers are the real hijackers.

EIGHT: No one, except possibly government investigators who are not talking, has seen the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. Some of the conspiracy theorists suggest that it was deliberately destroyed before it hit the ground; others suggest that the plane actually landed in Cleveland and that passengers then were whisked away to some unknown destination. What happened to them at that point is simply a large question mark that makes it more difficult to believe this particular scenario.

NINE: Machinations in the U.S. stock market in the days before 9/11 suggest that some inside players in the market knew or suspected that United and American Airlines stock would soon drop. Two of the four of the aircraft involved in 9/11 were, or course, United planes and the other two were American Airlines planes.

It should be reemphasized that these items do not make up a complete list of all the charges made by the theorists, but they are a good sample. Anyone interested in perhaps the best summary of these charges should watch the video “Loose Change.”

To repeat, points ONE and TWO above are the most important. If something other than an airliner actually did hit the Pentagon on 9/11, and if the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center actually were dropped to the ground by controlled demolitions rather than by anything connected to the hijackings, the untrue stories peddled by The 9/11 Commission Report are clearly susceptible of being turned into major political issues.

A Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll taken from July 6 to 24, 2006 concluded that “more than a third [36 percent] of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them, so that the United States could go to war in the Middle East.” The poll also found that “16 percent of Americans speculate that secretly planted explosives, not burning passenger jets, were the real reason the massive twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed.”

A poll done by the Zogby polling organization two months earlier, between May 12 and 16, 2006, and using questions worded somewhat differently, suggested even more strongly that the issue could become a “big one” if aggressively publicized. This poll concluded that 42 percent of Americans believed there had indeed been a cover-up of the true events of 9/11, and an additional 10 percent of Americans were “unsure.” The co-author of the poll, W. David Kubiak, stated that, “despite years of relentless media promotion, whitewash, and 9/11 Commission propaganda, the official 9/11 story still can’t even muster 50 percent popular support.”

Whichever of these polls is closer to the truth, it would seem that there is considerable support for making a major political issue of the subject.

This should be worked on at two different levels. At the first level, the objective should be long-term, centered on making a maximum effort to find out who the individuals and groups are that carried out the attacks in New York and Washington. Then, these people should be tried in an international court and, if possible, convicted and punished for causing so many deaths. Such a trial, accompanied by actual change in U.S. policies, would show that some people on this globe are at least trying to move closer to more just and decent behavior in human relationships around the world.

At the second level, the short term, the task should be to immediately set to work as hard as is humanly possible to defeat in this year’s congressional election any candidate who refuses to support a no-holds-barred investigation of 9/11 by the Congress or a high-level international court. No more evidence than is now available is needed in order to begin this process.

A manageable volume of carefully collected and analyzed evidence is already at hand on both items ONE and TWO above. Such evidence should be used right now to buttress charges that elements within the Bush administration, as well as possibly other groups foreign or domestic, were involved in a massive fraud against the American people, a fraud that has led to many thousands of deaths.

This charge of fraud, if proven, involves a much greater crime against the American people and people of the world than any other charges of fraud connected to the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. It is a charge that we should not sweep under the rug because what is happening in Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Syria, and Iran seems more pressing and overwhelming. It is a charge that is more important because it is related to all of the areas just mentioned -- after all, the events of 9/11 have been used by the administration to justify every single aspect of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East since September 11. It is a charge that is more important also because it affects the very core of our entire political system. If proven, it is a conspiracy, so far successful, not only against the people of the United States, but against the entire world. Finally, it is a charge too important to ignore simply because the U.S. government refuses to discuss it. We must force the Bush administration to discuss it.

Discussions aggressively pushed day after day about what really happened on 9/11 will be one of the most important tasks between now and early November. Such discussions can, one hopes, provide progressives with a way to jolt voters out of their apathy and inchoate willingness to support the status quo that they think gives them security -- and encourage more voters to stop supporting Bush, the Republicans, and the wobbly Democratic politicians who might as well be Republicans. A major issue like this, already supported by many voters, may prove particularly important in a congressional election year when new uncertainties in the Middle East, new possibilities of terrorism against the U.S. in retaliation for recent large-scale acts of Israeli/U.S. terrorism in Gaza and Lebanon, and the corrupt almost-single-party U.S. political system combine to make it more likely that supporters of Bush will retain their majority this November.

In terms of electoral impact, it would not matter whether heavy publicity did in fact force the administration to accept a new high-level investigation of the 9/11 events. Initially, the principal goal would be to contribute heavily to the defeat of both Republicans and Democrats who refuse to support wholeheartedly a major new investigation by Congress or an international court. This might result in the defeat of more Republicans than Democrats in November, but ultimately the hoped-for goal should be the end of a system in which Democrats are barely different from Republicans, along with cutbacks in the political power of wealth and the foreign and domestic lobbies paid for by wealth. These are the dominant features of our system today that have practically eliminated meaningful democracy in the U.S. This failure of democracy has happened before in U.S. history, but this time it is likely to last longer -- at least until U.S. policies begin to pay as much attention to the needs of the world as they do to selfish or thoughtless needs of the U.S. and of its military-industrial complex. Attacks on the criminal events surrounding 9/11 might speed this process.

Virtually no members of Congress, Democratic or Republican, will relish calling for a further investigation of 9/11. For right now, in addition to other motives, the issue should be used to go after those political prostitutes among elected office-holders who should also be defeated because they are so easily seduced by money and power to vote for immoral wars against weak enemies.

At the Los Angeles meeting of the American Scholars’ Symposium, one of the main speakers, Webster Tarpley, summarized his own views on the events of 9/11. He emphasized that “neocon fascist madmen” had perpetrated the 9/11 “myth.” He went on to say, “The most important thing is that the 9/11 myth is the premise and the root of the Afghanistan War and the Iraq War and the coming attack on Iran. ... We must ... deprive [the myth’s perpetrators] of the ability to stampede and manipulate hundreds of millions of people [with their] ... cynically planned terrorist events.”

Let’s give Webster Tarpley and other mistakenly labeled conspiracists who have labored in the wilderness for so long three cheers.

Bill Christison is a former senior official of the CIA. He was a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis before his retirement in 1979. Since then he has written numerous articles on U.S. foreign policies. He can be reached at:  kathy.bill@christison-santafe.com.

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

The fact remains that, regardless of which version of events you support, 9/11 was a conspiracy, plain and simple.

The difference is that, while I don't adhere to a particular theory, and simply acknowledge that a real investigation is needed, Bush/PNAC Apologists demand that we take on faith a Conspiracy Theory peddled by liars and killers, which has not been supported with evidence.

Only people with something to hide would fear the prospect of a real, independent, and hopefully international criminal investigation, which would seek to ascertain what truly transpired that horrible day, and most importantly, who was responsible.

Lest we reward the guilty, while continuing to (severely) punish the innocent, and in the process, become what the world hates and fears the most, that which we claim to oppose.

 http://patriotsquestion911.com

 http://www.911truth.org

Regarding "Architect/[NAME REMOVED]:

Spot the Freeper

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven distinct traits:

 http://alaskafreepress.com/msgboard/disinfo/index.html#freeper

9-11 is the keystone to all the terror laws, the war on terror and all the bullshit wars of the years since and to come. Pull 9-11 from under them and it will all collapse.

Same old fibs and halftruths from the self proclaimed Truth movement. Lets look at some of them:

1. WTC7 not mentioned in the 911 Commission Report. Well it wouldn't be, would it? The Commission's job was to look at the reasons behind the attack (which you think would be fairly obvious, given blatant imperialism the US are so good at) not address the technical issues. The latter are the domain of NIST, who have yet to finalism their investigation.

2. If you're going to talk about structures, try getting the basics right. The "enormous" core columns did not support the entire vertical load Vertical loads were split between the innovative external loadbearing envelope and the core, with the latter also providing resistance to wind-induced overturning moments. The hat trusses also served to redistribute wind loads between different parts of the structure.

3. I note with some interest a dearth of credible sources for the alleged Pakistani "inside job" theory. How peculiar.

4. So an aircraft didn't hit the Pentagon? So the 200+ witnesses are all paid-off, are they? The pictures of bits of aircraft we can find with even the most basic internet search are all fakes? The picture of the huge whole in the front wall - no, not the inner wall that the Truth movement like to show you - is a fabrication? The damage to cars and lamp posts along the aircraft's final route all a bit of cunning disinformation? Get real!

5. The towers fell at freefall speed? Rubbish! According to the Truth movement's own figures, the collapse was between 25 and 35% slower than freefall. The big giveaway is the large chunks of debris which hit the ground before the rest of the building, but clearly such simple logic is beyond our friends.

6. Slow air force response times? Tell you what, Truthers, tell us how long it took them to intercept Payne's plane....show us evidence that the US airforce was stood down, that it watched inland instead of doing its job and watching US borders.

7. Planes landed in secret and passengers whisked away? What is this, the X files??

8. Stock market dirty dealings? Well these do happen, but I challenge you to show us anything untoward around 911.

9. The Zogby poll did not show that 42% of Americans thought the US orchestrated the attacks or anything similar. If you're going to try and misrepresent statistics, don't be so blatant.

And so on.

But as I've said before, everyone should look into it themselves if they're bothered. But don't just read the "Truth" sites, rather take a look at the sceptical sites such as JREF or BAUT where the shoddy thinking of the conspiracy theorists is held up to the light.

7.

"Architect/Richard", you already posted those points. But if you examine the 25 Tactics of Disinformation (under "Spot the Freeper"), you'll see you haven't really said anything at all. As usual.

You might like this, as it takes your position, that of lobbing insult at anyone who dares to ask questions, instead of taking on faith alone the unproven Conspiracy Theory you're here weakly running interference for on behalf of proven LIARS and mass-murderers, and turns it on its head:

What Nonsense!

“Are you insane?! Where in the world would you get such an outrageous idea?” he said.

“Well, I was pondering one day and then it occurred to me that something wasn’t right,” she said.

“What isn’t right about it? It is a well known fact.”

“After a bit of observation and research, it just didn’t seem logical that things could be the way we think,” she said.

“Are you a scientist?”

“No.”

“Do you have some qualifications in physics?”

“No.”

“Then what makes you think that you could possibly have any idea how these things work? Just because you think it is logical based on your observations? The greatest thinkers of our society have come to this conclusion, and most people in the world believe this to be true, so for you to come along and say it is not so, makes you look insane, a virtual idiot.”

“But I’m telling you, I believe the world is round. Not flat like everyone is claiming. Just look at what I am trying to show you. Think about it logically,” she said.

 http://pittershawnpalmer.com/1984/?p=40

Stop Belittling the 9/11 Truth Movement
Bill Christison

Let’s address the real issues here. Why is it important that we not let the so-called conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 be drowned out? After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them in recent months, and have also carefully watched several videos that are available on the subject. I have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe.

Bill Christison is a former senior official of the CIA. He was a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis before his retirement in 1979. Since then he has written numerous articles on U.S. foreign policies. He can be reached at:  kathy.bill@christison-santafe.com.

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

What are your qualifications again, "Architect"?

The fact remains that, regardless of which version of events you support, 9/11 was a conspiracy, plain and simple. The difference is that, while I don't adhere to a particular theory, and simply acknowledge that a real investigation is needed, Bush/PNAC Apologists demand that we take on faith a Conspiracy Theory peddled by liars and killers, which has not been supported with evidence.

Only people with something to hide would fear the prospect of a real, independent, and hopefully international criminal investigation, which would seek to ascertain what truly transpired that horrible day, and most importantly, who was responsible.

Lest we reward the guilty, while continuing to (severely) punish the innocent, and in the process, become what the world hates and fears the most, that which we claim to oppose.

 http://patriotsquestion911.com

 http://www.911truth.org

Regarding "Architect":

Spot the Freeper

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven distinct traits:

 http://alaskafreepress.com/msgboard/disinfo/index.html#freeper

As usual when backed into a corner, the 911 Turth movement doesn't respond to the actual facts but changes subject whilst launching ad-hom attacks - Spook! Disinfo! Troll! Sock Puppet!

Tell us 911, are you going to come up with an answer to the misdirection on (say) the 911 Commission report or your failure to grasp the actual structural issues behind the core? Are you going to tell us how the evil US Government magically conned 200 witnesses at the Pentagon AND planted all those bits of plane?

"As usual when backed into a corner, the 911 Turth movement doesn't respond to the actual facts but changes subject "

Sorry, Architect, you didn't respond to my question. It seems pretty arrogant to demand answers from others while ignoring basic questions.
If you think 911 is such a 'waste of space' why is it the only subject you post on ? If you genuinely feel IM is having to host too much 911 material, then why do you personally never post on any other subject?

Are you by your own definition not just a 'waste of space' here ?

“Same old fibs and halftruths from the self proclaimed Truth movement. Lets look at some of them”

“WTC7 not mentioned in the 911 Commission Report…”
You’d think that the Commission would seek to find out whether their analysis of the attack was consistent with the WTC7 collapse, wouldn’t you? You’d think that some of them might think “Well, Bin Laden planned to bring down two buildings. But a third came down, too. Gee, that’s odd. We’d better look into this.” But I guess this was just too sophisticated a thought process for them.

“If you're going to talk about structures, try getting the basics right.
Don’t disagree with what you say here, Architect. Just one thing. How does this invalidate the inside job theory of 911, again?

“I note with some interest a dearth of credible sources for the alleged Pakistani "inside job" theory.” Yep, apart from the Indian intelligence wrote a report about 911 that points the finger at Pakistan and led to the FBI demanding action against the head of Pakistan intelligence that in turn led to his resignation? Nothing funny about that then.

“So an aircraft didn't hit the Pentagon? So the 200+ witnesses are all paid-off, are they?”
Well, I guess one glitch in the witness statements could be that what the plane is supposed to have done is physically impossible. Such as reports of the distance off the ground of the airplane just before it crashed would have meant its engines would have been underground.

“The towers fell at freefall speed?”
Not even the official conspiracy theory disputes this.

“Slow air force response times?”
What on earth is Architect saying here? The next thing he’ll be saying is that US air defences worked perfectly on 911. Dooh!

“Planes landed in secret and passengers whisked away? What is this, the X files??”
Not X Files. And I suppose no one in the Pentagon would ever be stupid enough to contemplate such plans. Apart from when they did when they proposed Operation Northwoods, of course. Dooh!

“Stock market dirty dealings”
I guess there never was an announcement after 911 of an official investigation into the untoward dealings just before the attacks. Wait a minute. There was! Dooh!

“The Zogby poll did not show that 42% of Americans thought the US orchestrated the attacks or anything similar. If you're going to try and misrepresent statistics, don't be so blatant.”
Yep, what the poll actually said was that 42% of Americans don’t believe the official conspiracy theory. But, I guess because Architect is such a supporter of the conspiracy theory, his eyes get wonky when he reads that.

Besides, I still don’t know what part of the Bush, Neo-Con explanation of 911 that Architect doesn’t believe. And he still hasn’t explained why he is so very keen on defending the Bush explanation.

And a word for the Lefties (although, I can’t say I’m not a Leftie) who say that conspiracy theories are all fantansies apart from the government conspiracy to promote conspiracy theories to stop people from fighting injustice, capitalism etc., etc.

It doesn’t seem to have dawned on these people that WE’RE LOSING. If you haven’t noticed, Britain has gone right-wing since 1979. So right-wing that the Left couldn’t put up a candidate against Gordon Brown, of all people. The Labour Party has pushed privatisation further than Thatcher with the support of the trade union movement. The so-called revolutionary Left are even more ineffectual. While the anti-war movement has been remarkable in the way it has organised many people, activities and marches. There’s just one small detail. IT HASN’T WORKED!!!. It should have led to Blair going in disgrace years ago and should have, at least, led to a media-backed threat of impeachment against any politician who even thought about a military strike against yet another Middle Eastern. But in case you haven’t noticed – THEY BACKED THE WAR AGAINST LEBANON. (Am I the only Leftie that’s noticed that one?)

Why is this? Well, it might be because the Left analysis of what’s going on IS WRONG. This means, you need to GET ANOTHER ANALYSIS. And get your heads out of those smug clouds of yours because some people might think that the Left was NEXT TO USELESS. (I’m sorry, the Left isn’t useless. It’s achieved an awful lot since 1997. It’s just that I can’t think of anything.) Now, are you going to force me into using more capital letters?

The planes hit New York City
And thousands now are dead
"It was Arab terrorists"
This is what you said
Well if that is the truth
Then what have you got to hide
And what were you doing
On the day all those people died
Where the fuck were the fighter jets
Ordered by the FAA
And what is your explanation
For what you were heard to say
When you told the Air Force to stand down
Not to intercept
Did you plan to let it happen
Or are you just inept

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

There's some distressing information, sir
Which I think should be explained
Just which things have been lost
And just what has been gained
Like the thousands of put options
Bought days before the crash
If the money were collected
It would make quite a pretty stash
And the only stocks they bought
Were American and United
Deutsche Bank knows the answer
But the names have not been cited
And is it just coincidence
That this firm in the private sector
Was once run by "Buzzy" Krongard
Ex-CIA Director

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

There's something fishy in Virginia
And I want an explanation
Why did they get the contract
What is Britannia Aviation
A one-man operation
Corporation with no history
He said he worked in Florida
But there he was a mystery
So is there a connection
I think it bears investigation
When the FAA found boxcutters
Does this cause you consternation
Hidden behind the seats
In these Delta planes
That had been fixed in Lynchburg
With Brittania at the reigns

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

You said Bin Laden was your friend
But he isn't anymore
Now that he's not fighting Russia
In your proxy war
Who called the FBI
Off the Bin Laden family trail
When so many times you had the chance
To re-write this sordid tale
Sudan in '96
The Taleban in 2001
Offered to turn him over
And right then you coulda won
But perhaps it is the case
That you're avoiding victory
That to justify your exploits
You must have an enemy

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

If you were not hiding from the truth
Then you'd have a truth commission
And not some masquerade
Kangaroo investigation
Hiring Henry Kissinger
The ancient master of deceit
To make sure all stones are left unturned
And the ruse is kept complete
And now you carry out your plans
Which you have had for decades
Conquering the world
With your troops and bombing raids
I see an evil regime
Led by an evil man
On Pennsylvania Avenue
Where this evil war began

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

Note that "Architect/Richard" doesn't actually address anything or provide the still-missing evidence he'd need to support his position, but intead, does exactly what he accuses others of doing ...

"Architect/Richard", you already posted those points. But if you examine the 25 Tactics of Disinformation (under "Spot the Freeper"), you'll see you haven't really said anything at all. As usual.

You might like this, as it takes your position, that of lobbing insult at anyone who dares to ask questions, instead of taking on faith alone the unproven Conspiracy Theory you're here weakly running interference for on behalf of proven LIARS and mass-murderers, and turns it on its head:

What Nonsense!

“But I’m telling you, I believe the world is round. Not flat like everyone is claiming. Just look at what I am trying to show you. Think about it logically,” she said.

 http://pittershawnpalmer.com/1984/?p=40

Stop Belittling the 9/11 Truth Movement
Bill Christison

Let’s address the real issues here. Why is it important that we not let the so-called conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 be drowned out? After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them in recent months, and have also carefully watched several videos that are available on the subject. I have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe.

Bill Christison is a former senior official of the CIA. He was a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis before his retirement in 1979. Since then he has written numerous articles on U.S. foreign policies. He can be reached at:  kathy.bill@christison-santafe.com.

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

What are your qualifications again, "Architect"?

The fact remains that, regardless of which version of events you support, 9/11 was a conspiracy, plain and simple. The difference is that, while I don't adhere to a particular theory, and simply acknowledge that a real investigation is needed, Bush/PNAC Apologists demand that we take on faith a Conspiracy Theory peddled by liars and killers, which has not been supported with evidence.

Only people with something to hide would fear the prospect of a real, independent, and hopefully international criminal investigation, which would seek to ascertain what truly transpired that horrible day, and most importantly, who was responsible.

Lest we reward the guilty, while continuing to (severely) punish the innocent, and in the process, become what the world hates and fears the most, that which we claim to oppose.

 http://patriotsquestion911.com

 http://www.911truth.org

Regarding "Architect":

Spot the Freeper

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven distinct traits:

 http://alaskafreepress.com/msgboard/disinfo/index.html#freeper

911=PNAC, CIA, Mossad="al Qaeda",

You can't mention Richard's full name here, despite him posting as MI5/SpookPlant, despite him admitting to trying to get me arrested just before he got me arrested for a post here , despite him infiltrating a UK peace group. He has even retrospectively forced IM to remove his name from threads where his name was used in reply to him using it, which is a bit bizarre. He can use his name but we can't reply to it ? It is better here than IM-IE, there you can't even mention the name Richard without getting deleted. I fear for the Irish peace-movement when they are so easily infiltrated.

Anyone can see Richards full name here, on a thread where he admits posting under various assumed identities on the one thread to give a false impression of consensus condemning feminists, and admits to beating up a girl half his age and size. This is routine for him, this is 'from the book':

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2006/12/357875.html?c=all

So I personally don't think Richard is Architect. Richard is certainly present on this thread, given the speed with which he had his name removed, and since he is heavily slagged by those who calls friends for having massive breasts - so I assume he is 'Shaylers Moobs' among others here.

You have to bear in mind though, Richard isn't just an individual who posts under various names, he is an infiltrator with an organisation behind him. So just because I don't think Architect and Richard are the same person doesn't mean I think you are wrong to write Architect / Richard. They are not the same person imo but they are probably colleagues following the same agenda.

I was neutral and disinterested in 911 when I met Richard. He manipulated me into posting heavily against 911 theories. I saw him manipulating other people, against the local 911er, and I finally clicked. I realised my mistake, exposed him and since then I've been under heavy MI5 abuse. seriously heavy abuse.

If anyone here wants the contact details, and proof, of a known MI5 infiltrator, just ask before this post gets hidden.

And the reasons I repeated these points is that, like the rest of the 911 "Truth" movement, you cherry pick the facts which suit your view and run from any semblance of debate.

The towers fell between 25 and 35% slower than free-fall speed due to the resistance offered by the structure. It's in the full report. It's accepted as a reasonable figure by the likes of ICE and IStructE. If you think it should be longer then come up with some structural figures which refute the NIST data. Simple solution.

You cling to complaints about the 911 Commission Report not looking at WTC7 even though it was looking at political and wider security issues. It's like comparing apples and oranges, but you keep mentioning because its a neat soundbite. What'll you do when the final NIST report on it comes out later in the year?

Then we had a foray into structural assessment of the core, which suffered only slightly from the fact that you thought it magically took the weight of the entire building. Not an ideal start to an attempt to convince that you know more than us architects and engineers about structures, I reckon.

But then the final, tired old accusation; anyone who opposes you is a government shill. Yeah, right. Get a grip.

Much as the comments above piss all over these evangelical wankers Architect and others are playing right into their hands. Without people argueing back at them they are just a bunch of sad individuals with a handful of rich backers. They crave attention and what they call 'debate'. It just gives them credibility that they don't deserve.

Finally here is one question that no'one seems to ask. Just imagine that everything the consparaloons say is true. So fucking what? Even if their claims were prooved beyond doubt the best you could expect is a handful of wankers in jail. The system that spawned them would still be there. The 9/11 truthers have no agenda for change their 'movement' is just a nice safe little arena where they can massage their own egos without ever asking any real questions about how to make the world a better place.

One more thing: Why are 3,000 dead Americans worthy of more attention than the same number of people who die because of poverty/imperialism/capitalism every 2.5 hours?

Dont discuss. Do something else.

a) the NeoCons wanted it to happed
b) the PNAC needed it to happen
c) Bush let it happen
d) anyone who uses government spin to oppose you is quite likely to be a government shill...

"But then the final, tired old accusation; anyone who opposes you is a government shill."

There is a government shill who posts the same views as you on 911 here often on the same threads as you, and who uses various pseudonymns on the one thread. I could prove that to you but it would take some time and distract from this thread so for the sake of this argument just accept it. Given that, it is natural to view with suspicion people who promote the same view, which is unfortunate but is hardly paranoid.
I do find it odd that you only post here about 911, I guess you'd say I post on too many subjects but most people post on more than one subject occassionaly and I've never seen you post on anything except 911. I started off by avoiding the 911 posts as I knew nothing about the subject, didn't see it as important compared to the Iraq war and the threads were too vitriolic. I got drawn into it by someone I later identified as a spook and so now my gut reaction ( and really my only evidence ) is that there must be truth in the 911 truth-movement or else it wouldn't be so heavily propagandised against by the authorities. I've not even read the official story on 911.
I did read and follow the Hutton Inquiry and know that to be a complete whitewash - did you read that ? Can you acknowledge any recent 'official-stories' that are obviously lies ?

You know yourself, on the internet lot's of people claim expertise that they just don't have. Now I personally know nothing about architecture so I can't check out your qualifications by asking simple questions like I could with a computer engineer ( I have a friend who could though if you were willing ) . So just to satisfy my curiousity, why do you only post on 911 ?

Is a 'consparaloon' someone who takes anti-psychotic drugs but still claims to be a member of 'an international brotherhood of ex-squaddies, paras and SAS' ?

One thing I noticed as an outsider is that the Truth movement started some time ago to divest itself from it's lunatic fringe and the obvious shills. Maybe the people who argue for the official story should follow their lead ?

"And the reasons I repeated these points is that, like the rest of the 911 "Truth" movement, you cherry pick the facts which suit your view and run from any semblance of debate."

Not at all. I simply acknowledge that the evidence doesn't support the Conspiracy Theory you're here running interference for, and that which has been collected contradicts much of the version of events of proven LIARS and mass-murderers you're demanding that we accept on faith alone.

I think a real investigation, one which looks at all scenarios, instead of starting with a conclusion like the one created by the people who obstructed a real investigation to begin with, would be the perfect place for honest debate.

Why does that prospect frighten you so?

"The towers fell between 25 and 35% slower than free-fall speed due to ..."

Perhaps. But as Christison points out, there is a wealth of evidence pointing to controlled demolition, and as such, this bears serious investigation.

"You cling to complaints about the 911 Commission Report not looking at ..."

No I don't. I simply acknowledge that the evidence that should exist, and would be forthcoming if the Bush/PNAC Conspiracy Theory were true, does not appear to. If it did, these Extremists would have held it out sometime in the past six years, saying, "See? Now we just HAVE to go slaughter Arabs, as we'd planned all along".

"But then the final, tired old accusation; anyone who opposes you is a government shill. Yeah, right. Get a grip."

Note that I didn't say this, although your Indignance alone does not disprove this.

I pointed out that you've employed Disinformation Tactics, used by "Freepers" who have flocked to sites like this since 2001, in a desperate attempt to regain control of the places, like IMC, which threaten their one-direction control of the information pathways.

Nothing you've said convinces me otherwise, mainly because you're trying to defend an irrational position, one which the facts, and lack thereof despite the full power and resources of several federal Regime's on your side, do not support.

Spot the Freeper

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven distinct traits:

 http://alaskafreepress.com/msgboard/disinfo/index.html#freeper

Note that "Architect/Richard" doesn't actually address anything or provide the still-missing evidence he'd need to support his position, but intead, does exactly what he accuses others of doing ...

"Architect/Richard", you already posted those points. But if you examine the 25 Tactics of Disinformation (under "Spot the Freeper"), you'll see you haven't really said anything at all. As usual.

You might like this, as it takes your position, that of lobbing insult at anyone who dares to ask questions, instead of taking on faith alone the unproven Conspiracy Theory you're here weakly running interference for on behalf of proven LIARS and mass-murderers, and turns it on its head:

What Nonsense!

“But I’m telling you, I believe the world is round. Not flat like everyone is claiming. Just look at what I am trying to show you. Think about it logically,” she said.

 http://pittershawnpalmer.com/1984/?p=40

Stop Belittling the 9/11 Truth Movement
Bill Christison

Let’s address the real issues here. Why is it important that we not let the so-called conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 be drowned out? After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them in recent months, and have also carefully watched several videos that are available on the subject. I have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe.

Bill Christison is a former senior official of the CIA. He was a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis before his retirement in 1979. Since then he has written numerous articles on U.S. foreign policies. He can be reached at:  kathy.bill@christison-santafe.com.

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

What are your qualifications again, "Architect"?

The fact remains that, regardless of which version of events you support, 9/11 was a conspiracy, plain and simple. The difference is that, while I don't adhere to a particular theory, and simply acknowledge that a real investigation is needed, Bush/PNAC Apologists demand that we take on faith a Conspiracy Theory peddled by liars and killers, which has not been supported with evidence.

Only people with something to hide would fear the prospect of a real, independent, and hopefully international criminal investigation, which would seek to ascertain what truly transpired that horrible day, and most importantly, who was responsible.

Lest we reward the guilty, while continuing to (severely) punish the innocent, and in the process, become what the world hates and fears the most, that which we claim to oppose.

 http://patriotsquestion911.com

 http://www.911truth.org

Danny

Whilst I agree that the Bush Administration and their Neocon chums exploited 911 as an excuse to recommence their rampage around the Middle East, I'm fail to see why an event of that magnitude would be required as an excuse - especially with all the risk involved if it were an inside job.

And no, I don't think that highlighting lies such as "steel is fireproof" or "freefall speed" is being a Government Shill, as they're both blatantly mince. Which is why I'm continually amazed when such spam appears time after time!

"And no, I don't think that highlighting lies such as "steel is fireproof" or "freefall speed" is being a Government Shill, as they're both blatantly mince."

Well, for me personally, I don't know the melting point of steel or such, I'd have to look it up and trust the answer. But I do know a government shill who has posted on this thread, and on many other 911 threads that you have posted on, at similar posting times, in support of your argument. And unfortunately, you do share the same vocabularly and spelling mistakes, which I admit could be an complete coincidence.

Now it would be lovely to ask you straight out 'Are you Richard ?' and to be able to believe your response, but if you were, you'd deny it, so I can't. So I'll ask you again, why do you post here regularly but only on this subject ? That really is my only question to you for now, although if you could also condemn some other current obvious government myth like the Hutton Inquiry then would be informative too.

"What are your qualifications again, Architect?"


I'm an ARB registered architect with tall buildings experience, and more than happy to demolish your little fantasies about steel being inherrently fire proof or a framed structre being able to magically support the weight of 15+ stories coming down at 9.8ms-2, mate.


You seem to be moving backwards rather rapidly from your "freefall" speed line, by the way. I notice you now want us to consider a "wealth" of other evidence. How amusing.

Architect

Don’t you think an event of that magnitude would be required as an excuse if you wanted to win public support to break international laws, commit horrific war crimes and hope to get away with it?

"How amusing."

See, you nearly had me going Richard. Architect wasn't of your numerous idenities that I have identified or that you had admitted to. But ending a sentece on 'How amusing.' - only you do that. You are easily amused for such a funny character. And 'Aye, Right' that was my phrase and only you have stolen it so far. You grammar, posting times, posting strategy and spelling mistakes a are a fingerprint. Sppok-plant as you called yourself - how amusing. Not.

So I challenge you 'Architect' to discuss architecture with a friend of mine who is an architect on IndyMedia. Arrange a time a a place. I'll go through and monitor Richard to make sure he isn't posting at the same time.

It is worth noting Richard previously claimed to be a computer expert until he met me and shut the fuck up about that bogus expertise. And previously claimed to be both a friend of Crass and the SAS. How amusing, aye, right.