There is more info about resisting ID cards on the Defy ID site.

 http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=25015 - has been removed.

It seems NO2ID can't bring themselves to distance themselves from the BNP, but they can hide debate! This is all a bit dodgy....

It's the same with (A)s they lock you out if your face don't fit so what do you expect? Try another tat on the forum thn rather compaining on here.

you shouldn't be put off by NO2ID from opposing ID cards, there are plenty of other people and organisations who are against ID. we need everyone we can to oppose this, because the government already have their foot in the door with the foreign national's card, and who knows what they'll try to pass next, once they've been successful with the cards.

I personally refuse to live in a country that requires a retina scan and finger prints on file to prove your innocence, and although i don't really want to move elsewhere, if more people don't speak out about it, that may be the only option to save an individual's liberties.

Sorry, i've seen so many nutters making comments on UK Indymedia ... should i call Indymedia "racist" now?

Posts may be hidden for:

Discrimination: posts using language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination.

So no, Indymedia is NOT racist. NO2ID on the other hand...

...wonder if they'll still be talking that kind of crap when they're huddled together in their own shit with barcodes tattooed on their arms.

- don't worry, I'm not. I'm black British, I'm used to it.

The correct term for someone who opposes the BNP isn't "liberal", it is "anti-fascist".

for your really thoughtful posting - i am active with a no borders group and have had many theoretical conversations about working with (or not) NO2ID on the issue of i.d. cards.

it is clear that by first targetting migrants, the government is allowed a gentle entry into classifying and identifying us all. not only does it show the cynicism in british politics, it also sadly mirrors the acceptable racist discourses and undertones still prevalent in modern britain. it is for this reason that you will often hear us use the slogan "by resisting the repression of migrants, we defend the freedom of everyone". i would add, that we do this with an explicit anti-racist politics, we will not use the rhetoric of "illegal immigration" in our thinking or communicating about this issue.

i understand, and myself too experience, your frustration at wanting to challenge something you are unwilling to accept for yourself, your family, or anyone else on this planet, but being confronted by the racism and exclusion operated by those who would appear to be "on your side". for no borders, i have been questioning the pro's and con's of working with a group such as NO2ID on the issue of i.d. cards. as a "british asian" your posting has cemented my position, i cannot and will not work with them until they are prepared to publicly (or at least on a forum such as this), challenge the sort of postings and discourses which have been recently aligned to them.

sure, you cannot take a ream of comments as a direct definition of the website or organisation you are reading about - but a group like NO2ID can take a position.....i wait with baited breath, and suspect that i will hear nothing back more than "we're a single issue campaign and can't take a position on migration", "we have a broad base of support and that is a good thing", "we want to remain popular". good for you i say, but in the words of the specials i add "if you have a racist friend, now is the time now is the time for that friendship to end".

as for the politics of no borders, you may want to get in touch with your local group - you don't have to "join", but you can ask any questions you may have or see if there are any films, talks, workshops coming up which you may find interesting. equally you can support any calls outs or activities that they might be organising in your area. you can be sure you will not find an absence of a position on the likes of the bnp, and the racist political system and media we currently find ourselves with.

or of course, you could sod both groups and still consider taking whatever action you see is fit to show your anger at the government and their i.d. regime....good luck

www.noborders.org.uk

As a regional coordinator for the campaign I’d like to personally respond with my views on this matter. The NO2ID forum is a public forum where anyone can post; you can post without registering if you so choose and you do not have to be a member of NO2ID to post. Therefore any views expressed on the forum are views of individuals, and in no way representative of the campaign. As someone pointed out Indymedia has similar issues from time to time, as to all forum boards. BNP infiltration of online forum boards is a common tactic. I have confidence that any racist posts etc would soon be deleted.

There is a complex dilemma around whether you should out fascists and whether you should grant them freedom of speech. To quote Nietzche “He who fights monsters should look into it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you”. Talking personally I’m not decided, sometimes I think it’s best to have an open debate and refute their arguments with reason, as suppressing them allows them to paint themselves as victims. Other times I think it is best to not give them any platform and that’s because they deny other people rights they deserve none themselves. Although I’m undecided as to what the best method of defeating fascism is, I’m passionate about defeating it. It is this dilemma that is being played out on the NO2ID board, but surrounding the issue of data protection and personal privacy. Just because some people on the forums and probably within the NO2ID membership think that the BNP has a right to privacy, it doesn’t follow that they in any way endorse their views.

Although I do agree one poster calling the BNP ‘Ordinary Folk’ was offensive and overstepped the mark. I also found some of the attacks on anarchist and left wing ideologies offense. I know as a campaign we would come down hard if anyone was using NO2ID to promote their individual ideological beliefs in such a manner.

Anyway I digress,

Before the threads were deleted a significant number of people including myself were challenging the views being expressed. The threads including my own refutations have now been deleted as they were discussions not about ID cards but about the ideology of UKIP and the BNP. Below is the moderation note that was given:

[moderation note: this thread rapidly degenerated. UKIP and BNP political views unrelated to ID card are off-topic. Likewise, individuals' personal political views and attacks on them are off-topic. Anything NO2ID related is on topic, including its use of language, strategy etc. For further indication as to what is appropriate discussion for NO2ID's public forums, please read  http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=15115 ]

It’s perhaps at this point worth reminding people that NO2ID did not allow the BNP a platform to speak at the London Mayor Hustings, and BNP are affiliates or in any way associated with the campaign. I think that alone should answer people’s concerns.

Personally I hope that No Borders groups can continue to find common ground to fight the racist and discriminatory ID card scheme alongside NO2ID. Obviously this will be a matter for individuals to decide within their autonomous groups.

NO2ID opposes ID cards for everybody.

As a supporter of NO2ID, I'd like to offer the following. There forum does appear to contain some people speaking out in favour of the existence of the BNP on the NO2ID forum, and that's a shame, but this does not in any way reflect the thinking of NO2ID itself. If someone is shouted down on the forum for calling the BNP fascists, then our argument is with the people doing the shouting, not NO2ID. No-one in NO2ID is "cuddling up to right-wing extremists", as far as I can tell.

It is of note that NO2ID have apparently presented to UKIP conferences - which is consistent with their non-partisan position. However if they were similarly pop along to a BNP shindig to do a presentation, then this *would* constitute an endorsement of the BNP as a regular political party, and would have a number of their supporters (including me) ending their support.

And, I honestly don't think the group would be that stupid. They are a clued-up group, and from what I can tell from industry/govt tittle-tattle on the internet, they have been extremely effective, especially given their limited resources.

I too followed the thread.

However, it was one person who was posting such views and I don't see how it's either productive or within NO2ID's remit to "disown or discipline" him. However, they did allow you to publicly criticise him.

Furthermore, I'm quite shocked at you publicly associating NO2ID with racism apparently on the basis of one person's posts (who many reminded you was untypical of NO2ID).

If someone posted an equivalent stereotyping article on the basis of posts from one black/Jewish/Muslim person... that would be racism/bigotry of the highest order.

NO2ID are clearly not racists as they oppose ID cards for everybody, wouldn't it be more productive spending our time opposing ID cards rather than NO2ID. Meanwhile whilst you denounce NO2ID the BNP grows and the Home Office gets closer to implementing the scheme.

The OP clearly isn't by an activist, rest assured anti-ID card activists are busy organising for the protests next tuesday.

Though there must be a fair few organisations around the country comparing their membership and mailing lists with a certainly recently leaked document!