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Indymedia refuses to be co-opted by the Knight Foundation

Corporate Watch | 30.11.2008 19:35 | Indymedia | Technology | World

A $200,000 grant proposal, submitted by a group of Indymedia volunteers to the Knight News Challenge contest, has been blocked by other IMCs and subsequently dropped due to the abiding ethos that Indymedia is a counter to corporate, money-fiaxted media entities. The grant application to the Knight Foundation was to fund technical development work for Independent Media Centres (IMCs), also known as Indymedia, and has caused much controversy within the global network. The debate has encapsulated, once again, the thorny issue of how to sustain radical projects without compromising that radicalism by accepting tainted money.

A small group of Indymedia volunteers from various IMCs, but mainly from IMC Boston, USA, had hastily applied to the Knight Foundation's News Challenge contest, with the aim of developing an 'Indymedia Drupal prototype'. Drupal is an open-source Content Management System (CMS), which is a free software to manage the contents of websites more easily, that has a wide community of developers worldwide. Many Indymedia sites already run on Drupal and many Indymedia techies have been working on Drupal Indymedia sites. The CMS, however, is said to be unable to cope with high-traffic sites or provide the decentralisation that sites like Indymedia require to avoid repressive measures enacted by states when confronted by dissenting content, including confiscating the servers that host such sites.

Earlier this month, Indymedia volunteers worldwide were surprised to discover that the Knight grant proposal had been made, seemingly in the name of the whole global IMC network, and taking credit for the work of other IMCs that have nothing to do with the Drupal group. 13 IMCs across the globe, including IMC UK, were listed as 'participants' in the project, even though some of them had not seen the proposal before and others named are not even currently active collectives. The applicants say there had been a 'miscommunication' and that they did not fully understand how the 'complicated' IMC structure worked. The proposal has since been blocked by IMC Rosario, Argentina, who expressed their dismay at the handling of the matter. Other IMC's across the world have also joined the block, including IMC Netherlands and IMC London. A statement by the latter, which is part of the IMC UK network, said: "Please, never make an application like this in our name without asking us."

While some questioned why "sooo much money" was needed to do a Drupal site, many were angered by the idea of paying IMC volunteers to do work others do for free. "I think paying people to do Indy work is one of the very core problems here," one IMCer said. "Why do you think techs 'deserve' to be paid? What about all the other IMCistas? What about the people who publish to the [Indymedia] sites? What about people who do the less glamorous work of keeping the sites useful day after day? What about people who have bled in the streets to tell the stories that must be told? Why privilege some IMCistas over others? Once we begin down this road, we start saying that some people are more valuable, more important, to this work than others."

Although Indymedia's Principles of Unity do not specifically have a rule against paying people or against applying for grants, they do state that "all IMC's consider open exchange of and open access to information a prerequisite to the building of a more free and just society" and that "the IMC Network and all local IMC collectives shall be not-for-profit." In February 2003, the global IMC-Finance working group drafted so-called Principles of Funding for Indymedia and proposed them to the network. These suggested that "any group or individual that is attempting to get funding for Network-wide projects, on behalf of the entire network, must notify imc-finance in good faith, with enough time for a meaningful public commentary." Another principle stated that, "when a local IMC applies for funding, they must [make] sure [they] clarify that they are acting on behalf of only their local IMC, and should differentiate between an individual IMC [and] the Indymedia Network." The Principles of Funding have not been formally agreed by the global IMC network.

This is not the first time funding has caused controversy within Indymedia, which strives to maintain its independence and anti-corporate stance. In September 2002, the notorious Ford Foundation proposed to fund an Indymedia regional meeting. The proposal was eventually rejected as many IMC volunteers, particularly some from Argentina, were uncomfortable with accepting money from 'such a dodgy organisation', which is believed to have links to the CIA.

The Knight News Challenge is an international yearly competition that funds "innovative ideas" using digital media to "transform community news and information exchange." It was launched in autumn 2006 by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, with a $25m budget to be spent over five years. More than $11m went to 25 winners in the first year (2006). In 2007, there were 16 winners out of 3,000 applicants.

The Knight Foundation's principal work has been its Journalism Program. Since 1950, the foundation has invested nearly $400m in 1,000 'partners' to "advance quality journalism and freedom of expression worldwide." The program has in recent years focused on "leading journalism excellence into the digital age," which the Foundation define as "fair, accurate, contextual pursuit of truth."

The John S. and James L. Knight Foundation describes itself as "an American private, non-profit foundation dedicated to promoting journalism and supporting the vitality of 26 communities" where the Knight Brothers owned newspapers. It began as the Knight Memorial Education Fund in 1940. In its first decade, most contributions came from the Akron Beacon Journal and Miami Herald. Following the practices of their father Charles Landon Knight, John S. Knight and James L. Knight gave small grants for "journalistic causes." In 1974, Knight Newspapers merged with Ridder Publications to create Knight-Ridder Inc., at the time the largest newspaper company in the US. Lee Hills, former president of Knight Newspapers, became Knight-Ridder chairman and CEO. Its trustees include Paul E. Steiger, the former managing editor of The Wall Street Journal and a vice president at Dow Jones & Company. Until it was bought by The McClatchy Company in June 2006, Knight-Ridder was the second-largest newspaper publisher in the US, with 32 daily newspapers. Having purchased Knight-Ridder, the McClatchy Company is today the second-largest newspaper publisher in the US after Gannett. It owns 32 daily newspapers in 29 'communities' (or markets), with a total circulation of 3.3 million, in addition to a number of less-frequent 'community papers'. At the beginning of 2007, the company had 14,000 employees and $2.34bn in assets.

The Independent Media Centre, or Indymedia, is a global network of independent, alternative media activists and groups, offering grassroots, non-corporate and non-commercial coverage of social and political struggles. The first IMC was set up in November 1999 to report on the anti-WTO protests in Seattle, directly from the streets, and correct the distorted coverage in the mainstream media. The network has grown massively over the years and remains closely associated with the anti-capitalist and global justice movements. Indymedia is most famous for its open-publishing newswire, where anyone can publish their news without any editorial or political hierarchy, as well as its open and democratic process of decision-making.

So why would a mainstream media giant like the Knight Foundation fund an independent media project like Indymedia? As one IMC volunteer put it, "how are they going to get eager, committed geeks to help them design new, participatory, Indymedia-like, websites for their 2nd-largest newspaper empire in the USA, while, at the same time, stopping the participation from getting out of control? A competition by *their* foundation, the Knight Foundation, to fund some of the *best* people developing software for grassroots, geographically based, community media sounds like part of the answer." The long-time Indymedia volunteer adds, "In my humble opinion, the Knight Foundation competition is not just *a competition* by *a foundation*; it is a competition intentionally designed by one of the biggest DEpendent media companies in the USA with the main management goal of developing 'Manufacturing of Consent 2.0'."


Suggested further reading on the issue of corporate funding of radical projects:

- Michael Barker, Who Funds the Progressive Media.  http://inteldaily.com/?c=173&a=7399.

- Michael Barker, Do Capitalist Fund Revolutions? Part 1: www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14561; Part 2: www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14524.

Corporate Watch
- Homepage: http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=3178

Additions

More dodgy stuff about Knight

02.12.2008 12:53

If the above wasn't enough, here's some more for you:
The Knight Foundation apparently has a connection, through vice president of its Journalism Program Eric Newton, with the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), an influential government-funded 'non-governmental' group in the US that actively promotes imperialism.
See here:  http://www.swans.com/library/art14/barker05.html

watcher


Comments

Hide the following 39 comments

Sponsorship = Censorship

30.11.2008 20:28

Dead right a sponsor is a censor In any kind of art or media.

Dead Write


Gatekeepers: Foundations Fund Phony 'Left' Media

01.12.2008 08:32



This is eye-opening and scary!

leftgatekeepers.com
- Homepage: http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/chart.htm


Not up to CW standard

01.12.2008 09:41

The story is ignoring a few factors and is tending towards a conspiratorial reading (as proved by the "leftgatekeeper" crowd popping up) instead of the more prosaic communications cock-up that it really was.

Not clear from the story:
* this would have been GPL software, i.e. Free
* the proposal failed at the 1st hurdle and was dropped, making the block issue i

So some people saw an opportunity, went for it, fell foul of clumsy wording (there were justifiable concerns that it sounded like a global indymedia project but was not) and impenetrable indymedia bureaucracy, got flamed, and probably now are burned out and unlikely to contribute further to the project.

All this stuff was discussed on indymedia lists (2 or 3 at once, in parallel) and would be publicly archived.

Probably the bigger issue highlighted by this is, with so many lists and unclear entry points, decision making procedures, parallel projects duplicating effort etc:

what needs to be done get global indymedia un-paralysed?

That's more concerning from the point of view of corporate entities catching up (overtaking) Indymedia as the place people go for their grassroots media. We blazed the trail but the settlers are moving up behind us, building fences. There are projects and people trying to regain lost ground, how do we ensure that they're helping people out.

CH


"Manufacturing of Consent 2.0"

01.12.2008 09:59

"Manufacturing of Consent 2.0" - very insightful :)

Mike D


hm

01.12.2008 10:46

Some time ago the OpenBSD project accepted a grant from DARPA, which was subsequently withdrawn when Theo De Raadt criticized the Iraq War. I suppose if he had been activist, and had chosen to censor himself for fear of losing the funding, that would illustrate a potential example of tech grants co-opting free software developers in their political lives. However, I do feel that F/OSS should ideally not be politicized on funding grounds. If the Knight Foundation wanted to take Indymedia's Drupal fork - even if they intended to use it to create some co-opted Indymedia close - I should expect IMC to license it under a license that would permit that, and rightfully so.

anonymous


I see both sides here

01.12.2008 14:23

I accept the conclusion of the story - that radical left groups should not accept tainted corporate money - but there are a lot of different things to consider here. It occurred to me that money from MSM groups is tainted - by the very fact of what they (don't) report and how they report it - regardless of whether they have more sinister links, as the Ford Foundation is suspected of having. I did think that suspect money going into IMC projects is at least going to do some good - if it goes elsewhere it may go into something harmful. However, just like cigarette companies sponsoring cancer research, we should remember that the benefactor usually wants something for their cash. For this reason, it was best avoided.

That said, CH makes some good points. In particular, how do new people get involved with Indymedia? I wanted to discuss some techie stuff with IM volunteers this year, so when a video showing - helped out by local Indymedia - came to my area, I asked a speaker if I could be put in touch with one. His response was "Why? We are all Indymedia". He then cut the conversation short.

Furthermore, the gatekeepers map is interesting, but the idea that FAIR, Chomsky or Goodman have been purchased is ridiculous. I'd certainly be interested if anyone can spot the hidden hand of the CIA in their work!

Jon


Question

01.12.2008 18:54

Who is funding Indymedia actually ?

Curious


Control of Dissent and Ruling Class Interests

02.12.2008 12:55


Glad to see the 'cock-up' theorists turning up, with the usual "Innocence Theories" and "Liberal Complaints".

Neo Liberal economics demand that the rich get richer (the poor depend on 'trickle down') and is fundamentally anti democratic. To handle the obvious dissent that this will cause amongst the vast majority of humans the ruling class fund these left-media outlets and then set limits on the debate,

e.g. not being allowed by these 'Authorities" to even discuss the ruling class conspiracy that ensures their continuing ex-sanguination of resources on our shared planet by a small number of billionaires.

I'd recommend Michael Parenti's talk from 1993 for you "cock-up" theorists and Liberal Complainers

It's time you did a radical analysis.

 http://www.tucradio.org/081015_ConspiracyONE.mp3
 http://www.tucradio.org/081022_ConspiracyTWO.mp3

2%Human


"ah yes! but what about the Parenti tapes!!!!!"

02.12.2008 15:32

Aiiiiiiiiiii the same conspiracist articles of faith and recordings trotted out once more, regardless of their appropriateness to this particular case.

I could (A) listen to some mp3s from 15 years ago as if they were relevant to this incident.

Or I could (B) have followed the discussion on the email lists as it happened and *watched* the story unfold in its "oh man this is going to piss some people off have they told everyone yet? no they haven't here goes the flamewar" glory.

A story which has such a misleading headline as this shouldn't be promoted (IMO).

"Knight Foundation rejects hastily-conceived grant application from small IMC-linked group" is a lot more accurate, but I guess some people would see a conspiracy out of treading in dogshit on the way to the shops. And sensation sells, even in a non-commercial context.

I still think the important issue that this story raises(*) is global-Indymedia's inaccessibility and impenetrability - how do we deal with that? Or have people given up / don't see a problem?



(*) - "blimey! this foundation with loads of money is a bit dodgy and has an agenda?" never have guessed *that*...

CH


Calm down, calm down, have a cup of tea

02.12.2008 17:03

To CH

Well this is appropriate IMO, because the dissent of the left is controlled and debate is limited by such articles of faith that I have encountered from people who say things like this

"The story .......... is tending towards a conspiratorial reading (as proved by the "leftgatekeeper" crowd popping up) instead of the more prosaic communications cock-up that it really was.
"

A conspiritorial radical analysis is taboo and forbidden by these, left media outlets funded by these ruling class organisations. mmmm just yet another 'coinscidence' in the smoke and mirrors of 'cock up' world?. I don't think so.

Parenti is simply saying that the ruling class consciously and actively use their wealth and power in their own class interests, like communists do. Seems obvious to me they would.

That's why taking cash from these corporations is risky and why, if its not 'grass roots' then it can't be trusted and should be regarded with circumspection.

"I could (A) listen to some mp3s from 15 years ago as if they were relevant to this incident."

You should listen to the mp3s it'll only take an hour, you can listen while you do something else, If you're not prepared to listen to and criticise Parenti's class analysis then how can you say things like "tending towards a conspiratorial reading"?

What's wrong with a conspiratorial reading?

"Or I could (B) have followed the discussion on the email lists as it happened and *watched* the story unfold in its "oh man this is going to piss some people off have they told everyone yet? no they haven't here goes the flamewar" glory."

So why would people possibly be "pissed off"? .... Because Corporate funding goes against the 'grass roots' ethos of Indymedia?.

"A story which has such a misleading headline as this shouldn't be promoted (IMO)."

Well done Indymedia for refusing to be co-opted, I for one would not like to see Indymedia being co-opted and the writer of this article seems to share this view.

"Knight Foundation rejects hastily-conceived grant application from small IMC-linked group" is a lot more accurate, but I guess some people would see a conspiracy out of treading in dogshit on the way to the shops. And sensation sells, even in a non-commercial context."

So let see what you're trying to establish here
1) a conspiratorial analysis is sensationalist and is some sort of marketing campaign?

Who then are the 'customers' of this analysis? Are you suggesting that Michael Parenti's analysis is not a rational one?.

2) People who see Parenti's class power radical and rational analysis of the conspiratorial reality are as mad as people who superstitiously think treading in dog poo brings them good luck??.

You're clearly not putting forward any rational refutation of a conspiratorial class power radical analysis. You are guilty of using the same methods you accuse your opponents of. You're using 'emotional' arguments to refute a rational analysis of reality. Ha Ha they're nuts, loons etc. By not engaging in a rational debate as to the merits or otherwise of the conspiratorial analysis you are closing the debate, defining limits to what thought and opinions that are 'Allowed' which is typical of what Authoritarians do.

"I still think the important issue that this story raises(*) is global-Indymedia's inaccessibility and impenetrability - how do we deal with that? Or have people given up / don't see a problem?"

How you can say that? just click on the "publish your news" button for crissakes!

You know some on the left think Parenti's analysis is a good one and fits with their world view. So please rationally explain why you think its wrong, and help us all to see things "right".

Stay Human

2%Human


One more time. Slowly.

02.12.2008 20:33

There is no purpose to putting this in a conspiratorial framework, unless you have a vested interest in putting EVERYTHING into that frame. The actions and interactions of the people involved in this incident do not fit that explanation of motivation.

I watched those events unfold, as emails that you can read yourself in the public archive, so no hidden machinations. This telling of the story makes some interesting points, however the emphasis it puts on some things has clearly lead to yourself seeing a conspiracy where there is none.

The biggest problem is this: The headline turns causality on its head, making it sound as if Knight approached Indymedia, before "Indymedia" bravely resisted Knight's advances.

This is not the case, it did not happen. There was a rushed grant application; it was refused.

By the headline's logic, I also "resist co-optation" by rich foundations everyday, since they have never given me £200,000 either.

So what is there to see as a conspiracy?

Nothing, except for those who see everything as a conspiracy and are so allergic to facts and logic that they resort to abuse when none is warranted.

Given the facts of this incident, what possible relevance do Parenti's apparent views have to this?
A: None. You're pushing an agenda I have no interest in. I am not getting into a wider discussion about the things you are trying to drag into a non-story.

CH


yeah

02.12.2008 22:51

>what needs to be done get global indymedia un-paralysed?

Why don't admins grass up more activists that they don't like to the police? That way everyone who posts agrees with you personally which is what you seem to want. You could call it the Indymedia Scotland model.

right


Alternatively, "Right"...

02.12.2008 23:27

....the paranoids can fuck off and keep their delusions to encounter groups and stop giving both Indymedia and the mentally ill a bad name.

CH


Information Sharing

03.12.2008 01:52

"One more time. Slowly."

A bit patronising that.

"There is no purpose to putting this in a conspiratorial framework, unless you have a vested interest in putting EVERYTHING into that frame."

Interesting use of "vested interest" what can you mean? My interest is in discussion and information sharing, I think the point made about left dissident mouthpieces that are funded through corporate institutions who then become dependent on that funding in order to continue occupying that dissident space which then compromises their credibility, limit the parameters of discourse and tell us what to think and perhaps more importantly what not to think, is a valid point.

Its why at least some here would not even countenance such a bid being made.

So who benefits from controlling the parameters of leftist thought and dissent?
A: the ruling class

"The actions and interactions of the people involved in this incident do not fit that explanation of motivation."

No it would appear that the people who put this together didn't do the research and don't appear to understand why even considering a bid of this kind was not a good idea.

"I watched those events unfold, as emails that you can read yourself in the public archive, so no hidden machinations. This telling of the story makes some interesting points, however the emphasis it puts on some things has clearly lead to yourself seeing a conspiracy where there is none."

There is a conspiracy by the ruling class to maintain their power as Parenti explains. One of the tools in this conspiracy is to control dissent because they know what they are doing is an
anathema to the vast majority of humans on the planet and so is likely to cause unrest and possibly the revolutionary overthrow of their privileged position in their created hierarchy of human power.

"The biggest problem is this: The headline turns causality on its head, making it sound as if Knight approached Indymedia, before "Indymedia" bravely resisted Knight's advances."

The article quite clearly states in the summary that the bid was made as part of a competition
submission to Knight - so I don't know why you're so het up about the headline, it seems you're making a criticism of style rather than content. Surely the real issue is why such bids shouldn't be made in the first place and why corporate foundations should be avoided at all costs.

"This is not the case, it did not happen. There was a rushed grant application; it was refused."

Now you're muddling things up who "refused" did Knight refuse?

"By the headline's logic, I also "resist co-optation" by rich foundations everyday, since they have never given me £200,000 either."

OK OK its a problem of style that you're banging on about then?. Like critiquing Daily Mail headlines?

"So what is there to see as a conspiracy?"

"Nothing, except for those who see everything as a conspiracy and are so allergic to facts and logic that they resort to abuse when none is warranted."

The ruling class conspire to maintain the status quo, part of the conspiracy is to fund and therefore control dissident mouthpieces, its quite simple, they know that ensuring that 90% of the wealth goes to 1% of the population will cause things like revolutions that may threaten their position, its not that difficult to grasp, the ruling class conspire.


"Given the facts of this incident, what possible relevance do Parenti's apparent views have to this?
A: None. You're pushing an agenda I have no interest in. I am not getting into a wider discussion about the things you are trying to drag into a non-story."

Parenti's views aren't 'apparent' at least it seems not to you, as you can't be bothered to even listen to what he has to say, maybe if you did then you could answer your own question.

Oh I see you already have! ... twice!
Wilful ignorance and self censorship characterises your response.

So it comes down to ... you don't like the style of the article's headline and in the process of criticising the style you have a swipe at anyone who has done a radical analysis of the ruling class's conspiracy to maintain their position of power?.



2%Human


More reading less typing

03.12.2008 10:00

If you think a headline that changes the identity of the protagonist of a story is a matter of "style", not content then you're failing basic reading comprehension.

We see that when you say this: "Now you're muddling things up who "refused" did Knight refuse?"
--> Yes, the grant application was refused by the KF and did not advance past the initial round.

Do you see now why the headline is misleading? There was no approach by KF, and the "refusal" was on the KF's part.

CH


CH

03.12.2008 10:41


Well if that's the case the article is misleading as well because the impression it gives is that the bid was blocked by various IMC's around the world and not 'refused' by Knight

I'm only subscribed to one list and saw nothing of the discussion you mention
I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of the lists where the discussion took place so I can do as you advise and read more and type less.

2%Human


list archives

03.12.2008 12:03

The list archives will be a couple of clicks away from lists.indymedia.org For the short gestation of the proposal you want to look at imc-drupal-dev, from 23rd October to 17th November. For responses see imc-tech and imc-cms.

Date of block, I don't know but the proposal was reworded (more than once) to attempt a distancing from global indymedia, raising an issue of whether any block would have been dealt with / was still applicable or not. The application was submitted by 1st November, making discussion between then and rejection on the 17th kind of moot.

CH
- Homepage: http://lists.indymedia.org/


Misinfo headline and stupid article

03.12.2008 14:44

The fund application didn't even meet the foundations requirements and would not have been accepted by them anyway so the headline is just bullshit.

i dispair


CH the remote psychiatrist

03.12.2008 15:10

There are two police informers who have admin rights on the Indymedia Scotland site. They have been getting other people arrested for Indymedia posts. CH knows about this and was offered proof but instead started releasing personal details about posters on the site, although with his added psychobabble smears. I would suggest it is Indymedia Scotlands total lack of interest in investigating that brings the wider Indymedia collectives into disrepute. I would certainly treat anyone in IM Sotland as a grass now, and that is mostly due to the acceptance of grasses rather than the two admins themselves.

CH is a terrible activist whose incompetence has helped destroy real dissent in Scotland, so it is sickening to see them pontificate on other collectives. For a start, IM Scotland rely on ACE who survive on grants from groups just as bad as the Knight Foundation.

How come you are posting here rather than on IM Scotland CH ? Not enough people reading IM Scotland - you did say there were only a handful of people who post there.

Right


Well done Rosario!

03.12.2008 15:19

CH
Thanks for the links

I've done some more reading and so now for more typing.

I think the above article is more or less accurate, the application was blocked by Rosario on the 9th i.e. before the expected response from Knight on the 15th. So the headline is more or less accurate too as it was blocked because several IMC objectors cited this as one of the many reasons to not taking the application any further i.e they refuse to be co-opted by MSM foundations like this because Indymedia would no longer be 'Indy'.

Judging from your response to this piece it looks to me like you basically object (or are 'allergic') to the last paragraph which is really just a question about what motivates foundations like Knight to set up competitions like this (other than tax dodging), but if you did a radical analysis (see Parenti) like some have, then it just looks like a fair and reasonable thing to conjecture, that they do it in order to manage dissent, by setting boundaries to thought, discussion and action - or in this case as the IMC volunteer opines to exploit indygeeks.

Seems like a fair enough point of view to me. Storm in a teacup maybe, but the issues raised are important ones and so I think the promotion of the article was a good idea.

Stay Human
Boycott Oil

2%Human


Snake oil

03.12.2008 15:46

It is amazing how many actions happen in Scotland but aren't even known about by Indymedia because no one active here trusts IM Scotland. CH helped organise the 'Anti-Militarist' conference in Edinburgh, careful to invite his SSP buddies along - so much for non-heirarchical. This was managed on the back of the anti-Nato demo in West Lothian last year which seems to have been their only contribution to the anti-war movement. No attempt was made to involve the local towns and villages in the protest, this was strictly a social occassion. The demo consisted of <25 folk by their own account standing a half mile from the venue beside a motorway where no one who was passing could have read their signs. Two of the crowd tried to reach the base by jogging through the fields with their arms flailing above their heads like public-school girls in a playground ( which a few of them to be fair really are ). The one person to get into the army base and photograph it from the inside isn't known to CH. He was on his first action and probably won't do another one because he saw the Forest cafe day trip and thought it was pathetic. It was. Yet on the strength of that incompetent failure CH is now 'anti-militarist'.

CH, if I was paranoid then I'd question how you found out the location of the meeting since much more technically competent people than you were looking for it, and may even point out that MI5 often release information via Eastern European websites as pointed out in 'The War On Truth'. I won't do that, mainly because it is condemnation enough to show you refused to even investigate my proof that your fellow admins are informers. It is great that you are the one psychiatrist in the world who can remotely diagnose posters as mentally ill. Where did you study medicine ? Dr.CH, if I am mentally ill then how come I achieved at the NATO meeting than you did? If you really less competent than a paranoid then you are condemning your own mental health more than mine. What is the medical name for a self-important faker - I am afraid I don't have your amazing psychic medical abilities although the phrase 'delusions of adequacy' springs to mind.

Right


It isn't just the ruling class ........

03.12.2008 16:56

....... who try and co-opt and control radical independent media, theres shedloads of liberals who do the same - see for instance urbana champaign and the new 'anti-semitism' free London Indymedia, which is unduly influenced by the liberal individual who developed its CMS.

CH appears to be another to watch out for.

liberals against the wall


I win the internet

03.12.2008 17:45

2%human: No worries, glad to be of assistance.

Right & "liberals against the wall": Thanks, you just made my Christmas. Got any more?

CH


CH and anti militarism conference

03.12.2008 18:15

Right - you appear to be incredibly misinformed. CH did not organise the anti mil conference. Why do you think he did? Why are you spreading untruths?

Weegie


Oh Danny boy

03.12.2008 18:21

the ward, the psych ward is calling.

Dude you really shouldn't be drinking at that this time of the afternoon. You know how it feeds your paranoid delusions. I mean this whole fantasy you have about IMScotland is really pathetic.

Oh and just so you know I didn't ID you by obtaining your IP from IMCUK it was mt secret spy hamster who lives inside your computer who told me it was you.

Welshboy
- Homepage: http://miserablist.info/


Welshboy Andy, hypocrite and fraud

03.12.2008 19:09

Welshboy is a Libcommer leak, the first person ever to leak an action of mine. Utter scum whose pre

He had me banned from LibCom for calling him Welshboy Andy, which is the name he normally posts on Indymedia. He was in email contact with me so could have just asked me to edit my post, but he chose to have me banned for innocently calling him by his normal IM monicer. The proof of his worth is is constant leaks - my name is indeed Danny. I can say that because thanks to Andy/CH et al the police already have my name and details.

You are not a weegie Andy, you are an Aberystwth exile. You falsely attacked Freak for being linked to paedophiles but you are best friends with an IM Scotland activist whose ex fiance accuses him of sexually inappropriate behaviour towards her daughter - while you defended him and helped him take legal action against the victims.
You are a fraud and a grass Andy, as you have just proven again. You are typical of your cliche and your next trip in prison will be informed by that.
Your next trip to hospital too when your little empire is brought crashing down.

Andy doesn't approve of direct action so he never takes part in it and demeans anyone who does.

Danny


Open offer to any other IM collective

03.12.2008 19:59

If any other collective or individual indicates they are serious about investigating police informers with IM Scotland admin rights then I will give them full details, even all the emarrassing and self-incriminating details. I'll swear it in court, I'll take a truth drug or a psychiatric exam or a lie-detector test. I'd go to prison for the crimes I have got away with.

Danny


MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

03.12.2008 21:28

I am in ur conspiraciez stealin ur detailz.

Welshboy
- Homepage: http://miserablist.info/


You are a grass

04.12.2008 06:31

It is good to see the only person willing to defend IM Scotland is a known grass. I trusted Andy at Faslane eight years ago and he leaked the information to the cops in front of my eyes. Since then I have known nothing but police leaks from him, culminating two years ago in a rather clumsy attempt by him to infiltrate a prisoner support group he was trying to sabotage. Whne I die, I will know I have done better than that man. And Andy, dear, I am ready to die thanks to the constant police raids on my family home. Nice for you to remind me what atraitor you have been.

Danny


knight foundation- why not?

04.12.2008 09:27

What's wrong with taking there money, wasn't indymedia aka Jam for Justice founded on a grant by the Glaser foundation? [1] (Rob Glaser (Real Networks) is Bill Gatesy boys buddy from Yale, tapped?), I know you've taken money from them in the past, what others have you taken money from? do you make it public? seems all a bit hypocritical to me.

[1]  http://www.glaserfoundation.org/grants/2000_social_media.asp

grant


:D

04.12.2008 09:34

"
It is good to see the only person willing to defend IM Scotland is a known grass. I trusted Andy at Faslane eight years ago and he leaked the information to the cops in front of my eyes. Since then I have known nothing but police leaks from him, culminating two years ago in a rather clumsy attempt by him to infiltrate a prisoner support group he was trying to sabotage. Whne I die, I will know I have done better than that man. And Andy, dear, I am ready to die thanks to the constant police raids on my family home. Nice for you to remind me what atraitor you have been. "

And the lulz continue as Danny continues to stuble around in his hallucinatory world of spies, infiltrators and informants.

welshboy


@Grant

04.12.2008 11:13

First I'd heard of the Glaser Foundation. Is he the one that owns Man U?

That seems to have gone to Seattle IMC though. Most (if not all) IMCs handle their own fundraising and so it's not really meaningful to say "you've taken money from them in the past". There is no "you" to refer to. IMC Scotland has never seen a penny of foundation money, for example.

If this story shows nothing else it's that there are wide differences in the attitude to money from certain types of donors.

There's a global finance group that handles donations to Indymedia as a global entity (such as it is, being so decentralised). Perhaps your question would be better directed to them.

CH


@Grant

04.12.2008 11:19

First I'd heard of the Glaser Foundation. Is he the one that owns Man U?

That seems to have gone to Seattle IMC though. Most (if not all) IMCs handle their own fundraising and so it's not really meaningful to say "you've taken money from them in the past". There is no "you" to refer to. IMC Scotland has never seen a penny of foundation money, for example.

If this story shows nothing else it's that there are wide differences in the attitude to money from certain types of donors.

There's a global finance group that handles donations to Indymedia as a global entity (such as it is, being so decentralised). Perhaps your question would be better directed to them.

CH


To Andy and IM

04.12.2008 15:26

If Andy wants a public discussion here then he should respond with facts better than smears. I have names, dates and times if anyone else is interested in the former Faslane police-informers within IM Scotland. I can remember the action Andy leaked - he claims to have been too drunk but he is a master of projection.

As to whether IM log IP addresses or not, they do and they don't. They don't have an automatic log. As anyone who knows anything about more than the IP protocol realises, technical admins can and do look out for specific addresses. I did when I was paid to do that job. This is the case on every website you visit, I could prove by quoting emails but I won't because I respect many IM UK admins. The main fact here is I have offered PROOF that an IM Scotland admin has been usining IM posts to get other activists arrested, and no one with in IM Scotland has asked for that proof, no IM collective is prepared to investigate the behaviour of another IM collective.


IM Scotland is one IM collective that is neither Independent or Media. Ignoring that hardly seems worthy. You don't believe me, then prove me wrong - argue, demand evidence, but just identifying and smearing me seems evidence of the sort of dubious behaviour I have proof of. I am honestly happy to go for a mental health test just now if that'll stop that crap line of smears, I'd happily have my blood tested. I can't go to the police to report two police informers in Indymedia Scotland - they obviously know. I am unsure why noone in IM is interested in whether their fellow IMCistas are cop-fodder.

Danny


sweetpea

04.12.2008 18:02

"I am unsure why noone in IM is interested in whether their fellow IMCistas are cop-fodder."

It will be because they know you are talking mince and are extremely disconnected from anything that's going on in Scotland.

The thing is Danny you are the one making the wild accusations without ever presenting any evidence. Something you do on a semi regular basis. I have decided that rather than getting angry and wanting to hurt you, as I did when you threatened my family, I am instead going to mock you and treat you with the derision you deserve.
nyeh nyeh

welshboy


grass

04.12.2008 20:16

Your family are under no threat from me, never have been and never will be. I wish your family no ill nor do I even know any of them since they live in a foriegn country. My family have had death threats from your friends in Peaton Glen Woods, middle of the night calls that were deliberately aimed at them and not me. I can prove that. I can also prove my parents have been hospitalised after police raids, one of which may have been your handiwork but one of which certainly stemmed from your Belgian pal. The police read me an email out that I'd sent to him.

You personally are long over due a kicking for being a leak, whether accidental or as seems increasingly likely, a deliberate leak. Sorry but you have. You are a disgrace of a fraud but I find it a shame you are a grass. Are you genuinely wanting proof that your friend has been grassing up activists using IM posts or not? If so, why have you tried to ignore any evidence and smear me over the past two years ?

I'll come by Buchanan street or the unity centre or the Chalkboard to catch up with you soon. Like me, you should settle your affairs.

Danny


way to go Danny boy

05.12.2008 13:36

more death threats to prove how rational you are.
At no point have you ever provided any evidence of any of the accusations you have made, remember you made the accusation so it is up to you to back it up.
No one has ever smeared you. Myself and others have mocked you for the sheer persistant insanity of your accusations. I mean there is no need to smear you, you do such a good job of making yourself look a tool no one needs to. I simply enjoy egging you on. I will continue to do so until you at least apologise for threatening peoples families and attempting to sow division amongst what passes for a movement in Scotland.
Oh and sweetpea, you prove how disconnected from the movement you are. The Chalkboard hasn't been open for two years or more.

Hugs, Kisses and Tin Foil Hats

the Welshboy

welshboy


Talamh, TP and IM - drug and child abuse

06.12.2008 15:38

Andy,

I may not have provided you with any proof because you never asked for it when it was proffered, you instead demeaned me falsely and warned the perpetraors. Besides, you don't seem much better than the IM Scotland admins who have grassed me up. I am also happy to quote ourr private emails to prove you have maliciously accused me of threatening your family, that I specifically stated that I was not threatening your family. You are being malicious and dishonest again When you adopt nazi tactics, you are asking for a response. So can you prove I've ever had any contact with your family ? Cos I can prove that your friends phoned repeatedly my parents in the middle of the night from the telephone records. I can provide relevant testimony that one of them is a childgroomer - and that warning you of that resulted in legal action against the victims. I would provide proof to someone we both trusted although that is probably an extremely limited number of people. Joining a collective does involve collective responsibilty after all.

I haven't been in Glasgow for two years and I wouldn't have visited the Chalkborad if I had, I regarded it as like ACE but with less hypocritical, but no less ineffectual, people in charge. Is that how you rate my relevanace as an anarchist - the amount I socialise ? I tend to rate myself by the results of what I do - and unfortuanely I also rate you by how much you don't achieve. Of course you are a very charming man, but most photocopier salesmen are just as charming. I also haven't been able to post any illegal actions for that period of time BECAUSE THE POLICE WOULD COME TO HARRASS MY PARENTS THE NEXT DAY. I don't mean a couple of cops at the door, I mean a squad. Maybe that has made me a bit paranoid but I knew 8 years ago you were a leak.

Anyway, truth is until January this year I remained in the same perfect health. The cops who were raiding my house were obviously told by your comrades that I was mentally ill, they alsways asked 'Are you feeling depressed?' and I would always shout 'No, I am fucking angry at you'. This January though really did break my spirit and I only managed to get it togther enough to finish off a few important long-term projects.

So you and your fellow IM Scotland admins, with your constant mental health /substance abuse smears ( oh, and I love the drunken smear, given you were never once sober for the first year I met you and yet would trust me to drive you Talamh with Cherie and her kid, given that you stole and drank 3/4s of the first bottle I took to Falsane as a gift ), well, fair enough. I could now probably pass for medically depressed thaks to the damaging effect of IM grasses. Thanks to your testimony I could probably get a reduced sentence. I am not after a reduced sentence though. Staying free risks my parents lives due to the stress and worry of police raids.

I haven't had a hallucinogen since long before we first met. Your Peaton Glen pal did beat up a girl half his age while he was tripping though during that time, or at least he lately blamed it that attack on acid.

I have taken some drugs over the past eight years - Islay malt and dope occasionally. I did score dope at Talamh once. I was also given cocaine at Talamh once. I was also offered any proscription drug I wanted at Peaton Glen Woods. I feel bad that your colleagues have reported me as a Nazi, as a terrorist and arsonist, etc, cos the local ops know me and know that is bullshit. So if I want to get to prison, I am going to have to grass myself up for some real crimes Scoring drugs in the druggy scene you inahbit seems like coming clean. Admitting to helping your paedo friend remove the child he was abusing from Talamh would help fill the record straight.

Since you know think it okay to grass people up, then I am happy to come clean and serve my time - alongside your pals. I wish my country was free of hyprocrites, abusers and grasses that you typify.

Danny


you

10.12.2008 21:10

truly are demented danny boy

welshboy


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