New Tactics in Greece: Rioters Use Lasers to Blind Police

correct link

14.12.2008 20:18

http://www.euronews.net/de/article/14/12/2008/tension-remains-high-in-greece/

sheela

Excessive??

14.12.2008 20:48

Is it as excessive as shooting someone dead and then attacking the funeral?

Torrows hidden angel

this is what banks look like in athens

14.12.2008 20:54

exzessive too, somehow, after all this exzessive wall street years

dagobert fuck

These lasers are a real problem when pointed at vehicles and aircraft but are unlikely to cause permanent eye injury used at a distance like this. The beam appears brighter than it is because it is night and because the air is think with smoke and dust. The divergence of the beam with distance can be clearly seen.

It's a new development because these lasers have only recently become cheap enough for even the poorest rioter to own one.

The tear gas is far more of a danger to both protesters and police.

And the US Army uses a laser dazzling device against civilians, so it must be safe...

Mike

Jesus fuckin christ

14.12.2008 20:58

SO some damage in the eye is worst than the death of a little kid jesus. These pigs deserve it. They kill every year people ya know.....if they came for them, they ll come for us too one day. Either you fight it now either your kid will be next.

The only peep who dont sympathize rioter are the cops. N i started thinking that you might be one. Cuz i cant believe that Uk indy has such idiot readers like you. What the fuck are you doin in here anyway?

The killers of the brazilian guy in the tubes are free and are still between us and nobody fucking reacted yet. Wake up BRITONS yu r next.

No jesus, no masters

Suck my cock

@Torrows hidden angel

14.12.2008 21:13

> Is it as excessive as shooting someone dead and then attacking the funeral?
I think you'll wrong to try weigh things like this on scales. Both the lasers and the shooting seem very excessive. I don't think blinding someone is right because someone got shot.

You sound like it is about vengence even though you are not friend or family.
People are killed everyday in the UK. A goth girl was kicked to death in a park a while back by some kids - no one talked of vengence then.

torrow

vid of Greek laser show

14.12.2008 21:17

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7782039.stm

xzh

Al Jazeera news on the lasers:

14.12.2008 21:23

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qtdXCnaRsGs

sokrates

here another pic

14.12.2008 21:34

source: bbc

.

high tech uprising

torrow: no-one has an sympathy for rioters when they get a beating?!?!

14.12.2008 21:51

wtf are you talking about, torrow? no-one has an sympathy for rioters when they get a beating?!?!

are you kidding? most people I know are fully behind the rioters and have no sympathy for the cops when the cops get a beating.

anon

@anon

14.12.2008 23:03

well i wouldn't know anything about beating up the police or rioters but, contrary to your little crowd, I don't think 'most' people like to see people getting hurt apart from sadists.

torrow

pigs surfing the web

14.12.2008 23:45

Ha! I have plenty of mates. None of them anarchists or rioters. None of them have any sympathy for the cops - in fact a good number of them hate the pigs. I think it is you, Torrow, who are surrounded by saddos - namely the Met. Wish I could get paid to post comments on websites!

NotTarrow

carry on

15.12.2008 00:34

amazing. the paranoia is so ingrained that you think i'm the police! Im sure theres a medical name for that. Nevermind.... stop deflecting from the article or facts by trying to resort to labeling. Thats just a process of trying to destroy credibility which is an ok technique if done with some thought, albiet a little old hat.

Its strange - we must live in very different types of worlds, because i don't know anyone who supports the rioters. The peaceful protests yes, but not the rioters. Most people i know (people who choose to work lol) just think they are a bunch of hooligans jumping on the bandwagon. People who actively enjoy wrecking stuff regardless of the underlying excuse. People who actively want to live in a dystopia because they have something to do thats exciting (revolt). I honestly think these people would just be bored in a nice utopian world.

tarrow

troops?

15.12.2008 00:35

The Israeli newspaper Ha'retz reported that troops were deployed to restore 'law and order' on the streets of Chios and Rhodes.

v

This sucks

15.12.2008 01:35

I understand the rage but the violence that's happening is idiotic and I'm shocked as to how the majority of posters on Indymedia seem to be praising it.

Rioting is stupid

a birth comes with the labour pains

15.12.2008 02:03

Referring to tarrow's comments but also in general. I don't know where you are from tarrow, I'm from Athens and I study in the UK. Your theory is fine..in theory!

Have you ever been to a protest in Greece? Do you happen to know how many people have been killed or heavily beaten up and sent to hospital for months? Do you happen to know how many of these cases have found justice? Do you know how many victims of police violence have actually been prosecuted on the "anti terror" law? Do you know that the chemicals our police uses are illegal and more dangerous than the usual tear gas? Have you seen how many cops raised guns during the riots and after the boy's murder? Do you know that they run out of chemicals on day one (!!!) and got new supplies from the UK (!!) and Israel in one only day? Do you know the chemicals they use have been abolished from the UK army and sold to our police? Have you been to the streets of Athens to actually see the support of the people to the rioters? The only ones objecting are the neonazis!!!!! Do you know that old ladies have been throwing pots of flowers on the heads of the police from their balconies? That they have tried to save youths from their claws numerous times over the last days?

I don't suppose you do. Because here, we're dealing with reality not theory. So how would you suggest we reacted in a situation like that? Do you suggest we go to them with flowers and songs? Or to stand there and protect ourselves with words and theories? Of course we HAVE to use something. Lazers is among the few things we have to protect ourselves. There's no room for such ethicology when you are in danger. I myself have been hospitalized for one day because of the chemicals I inhaled. Should I just sit back and watch?

As for the shops that have been destroyed, my friends no one is innocent when things come to such point. These middle class owners have been voting for years these governments that led us to that. They have been numb and selfish. They are giving us a worst society than they got. Worse working conditions with the trade unions they elected. Worse health system with the laws they allowed to pass. Worse educational system with their choices. And an "anti-terror" law that they thought didn't touch them. So far. Because now their 14 year old children are prosecuted as terrorists. Now they realize they should have reacted. But it's too late. And therefore, they are NOT innocent. And when a society comes to this point, everyone has to pick sides. It's either us or them.

Get it?

@@

15.12.2008 03:21

Hi,
Thanks for the comment. May I say your use of english is excellent - better than mine.

Your first 2 paragraphs are solely rheotic on rioting. Which is basically a warzone. Anyone choosing to be on the sharp end of a riot has a clear understanding of what the personal consequences can be. You know the police are not going to be handing out sandwiches and cups of tea.

There is about 1.5 billion euros estimated damage so far. The more destruction there is, the more damage to Greece's economy. Jobs will be much scarcer and education poorer for quite a while. In the worst case scenario, if this gets really bad, Greece's membership to the EU will also be called into question and you may have to go to the IMF putting your country at a further disadvantage. That takes absolutely years to get out of - the UK went bankrupt in the 70s and we had to go to the IMF. Small businesses were only allowed to run 3 days weeks because there wasn't even enough money to run the powerstations. Thats when all the boat people went to australia because it was so bad here. No jobs, just nothing. If you believe that it is worth it, then fair enough.

I think your personal action is the correct one, leave the country and study abroad where things are more economically stable, productive to personal development and starting a family.

tarrow

riot gear

15.12.2008 03:29

would anyone be upset if i took one of these to a riot?

mr plod

Lasers as non-lethal weapons

15.12.2008 05:19

I noticed the lasers in TV coverage. Make no mistake, even these low-powered lasers are weapons when aimed at an eye. They cause irreparable retinal scarring. They cause less damage than many of the other weapons being employed but be aware, the state already have stronger lasers designed to blind a crowd that haven't been deployed presumably for fear or a moral backlash.

Black blok tactics say that if you are going to throw rocks from a crowd then you must do it from the front of a crowd rather than using other protestors as a human shield. There is a good reason for that that also applies to more exotic weaponary. If you do want to blind another person, then there are higher-powered lasers easily available from night-clubs and universities but a simple water pistol full of acid would have the same effect. If someone was shooting bullets at me then I would be tempted to use such a weapon, but I would do so knowing that the state could retaliate in kind against my compadres.

dp

An Economic Perspective

15.12.2008 09:41

With regards to the possible economic damage done by the rioting, I would point out that the destruction of buildings and infrastructure can actually be quite beneficial to an economy. After all, government spending in order to stimulate aggregate demand is one of the centrepieces of Keynesian theory. As seen in WW2 Britain, the effort of rebuilding the nation contributed to a massive boom era. Repairing the damage done will quite possibly provide jobs for the unemployed of Greece. Governments across the world are currently putting considerable portions of their GDP into fiscal stimuli, often financed through borrowing - America's proposed stimulus, to include the rebuilding of schools, hospitals and roads, is over $100 billion, which works out to almost 75bn euros. You can't really compare of course, because the American economy is much larger than the Greek one, but you can see my point.

Obviously, all beneficial aspects of the reconstruction could go to hell if the IMF step in with 'structural readjustments', but I think it's too early to condemn the riots as having that much of a negative effect on the Greek economy, especially in comparison with some of the most high profile targets of the rioters - banks - who have definitely screwed over the Greek people far worse.

Also, Tarrow, what you're promoting, young people leaving the country to study and live abroad, amounts to what is referred to as a 'brain drain' (when all the educated citizens of a country seek work elsewhere, leaving the country without a core of competent academics to run things like hospitals, universities etc) which is definitely not good for an economy.

Beeb

follow-up

15.12.2008 11:43

OK, I'll admit to some paranoia, but actually this is borne more from experience than any ill-health as you seem to suggest. It may surprise you that there are paid members of the security services of various countries who are paid to troll websites like these. They often espouse views like yours. Apologies if you are not a cop though.

As for praising rioters, I don't think it is as simple as that. People know that the cops attack demonstrators, shoot them in fact. They know what they are like. The British should be more than aware of the behaviour of the cops - e.g. Northern Ireland, coal miners... need I say more? If you think the cops stick to the rules then I suggest you get your reading glasses out. Nobody is praising rioting for the sake of it - there aren't too many pro-football rioting posts on this website now are there?

Finally, I'd like to ask you when peaceful protest has ever achieved anything significant? When the stakes are high, those in power always resort to force and violence. The idea of pacifism, beyond the one taught by certain religions, is a rather useful property-owning means of preventing damage to a section of the population that is doing rather well for itself. Please let me know when you think peaceful protest has secured the rights of the womens vote, the right to vote, an ending of racial discrimination, the toppling of a authoritarian regime, the ousting of a foreign occupation, the levelling of systemic discrimination?

NotTarrow

@ha´aretz story on Greek troops in Rhodes and Chios

15.12.2008 14:13

please state a internet link on the story can´t find it on ha´aret.com

xerxes

Blind cameras

15.12.2008 17:07

I am afraid I agree with Torrow, I don't like this as a tactic but I have thought about it and investigated it and there is another better way to use the technology.

There are a couple of quick mods to make most brands of these devices to make them more dangerous. The power output can be boosted slightly, or reduced significantly, above or below the legal power limit. Reducing the power would reduce the risk of injury but would still dazzle and threaten, assuming that is the intent. Removing the IR filter is another mod that is illegal for good reason, the closer light is to invisible infrared the more dangerous it is. This information is readily available on other websites but I don't think it is a good tactic. If someone is lasing you, you won't be able to tell if the beam is hazardous so it will have to be treated as hazardous.

A laser pointer isn't really an effective weapon - I mean, in a fight to the death I'd rather have a sling or a catapult or even fire-works as a distance weapon rather than trying to aim at the eyes of someone more than a few metres away. What are the chances you could blind someone 10 metres away even if you tried to hit their eyes ? Next to zero. It might be an effective 'scare' weapon, forcing riot-squads to retreat, or at least distracting them, for fear of blinding. If you really want to blind people then you are more likely to succeed using a high power water-pistol filled with acid but when you get to that stage you have to start questioning if you are any better than the state you are opposing. A super-soaker filled with brake-fluid is a great way to damage cars behind security fences though ;-)

If the green lasers shown on TV are, as is likely, DPSS laser pointers then they could instead be used safely without modification to damage to the CCD or silicon sensor array in CCTV equipment. I know this has been done before during disturbances, and so it is a valid reason to carry a pointer, but when they are used against humans then being caught possessing one in a riot ensures a hefty kicking from the cops as Torrow claimed, and a kicking is more likely to damage your vision than a pointer.

dp

Mike

15.12.2008 18:42

"The divergence of the beam with distance can be clearly seen. "

I agree, the pictures indicate a device to appeal to television rather than a weapon. Riots with laser displays, ooh! You wouldn't know if it was dangerous or not though simply by looking at pictures.

"It's a new development because these lasers have only recently become cheap enough for even the poorest rioter to own one. "

When did DVD players become affordable ? A few years ago now. You get a more powerful weapon in any discarded DVD. I could build a weapon out the ones in my local tip, hundreds of lasers rotating askew on their motors to spread their beam, invisible and yet blinding. Simply shutting your eyes would render it harmless but you wouldn't see the light so you wouldn't know to keep your eyes shut. Who wants to break into my house to test this ? An engineer at my first job rigged up an anti-theft device for his car, a cable inside the car wrapped around the crank-shaft. Ingenious and well-made, it did indeed rip the feet off the next car thief. The thief was compensated and the engineer was gaoled. The engineer kept his feet of course, lost the car and everything else he owned. Not so ingenious perhaps.

"And the US Army uses a laser dazzling device against civilians" - Mike

I know they have such weaponary but I am unaware that it has ever been used even in battle abroad let alone against domestic civilians. The ray weapons used in Afghanistan ween't lasers as far as I know. If I am wrong then please enlighten me. If you have any technical details on their power and intensity I'd also be grateful, I have read the highest rated articles but still don't know accurate details.

dp

tarrow

15.12.2008 22:56

Nice sarcastic comment.

To your information I have no plans of creating a family, I haven't settled to one place so far (and I'm not very young), and I have no interest in professional development. As for the stability of the UK economy....yeah, right! And lastly, I am not there anymore, I am here in Athens, and I will stay for as long as it takes. So, my personal action is to be where I have to be for all, not for my "personal development" as you say.

As for the rest, how can you even think you know how things work in Greece? And really, what makes you think that our state works like other states? About works and education? What makes you think they didn't get worse and worse even before this? I haven't been in favour of damaging properties (except for banks) for a long time. But I've had enough of unprovoked police violence. And I'm not speaking about riots only.

So, no, it was not a rhetoric on rioting. It was on the Greek everyday life. So, before you evolve your theories more, maybe it would be useful for you to read a bit. A bit of recent history, politics and sociology.

On the other hand you could just continue with your so far "personal action" and make theories and analyses on something you know almost nothing about. Easier and less time consuming, isn't it?

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