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The Israel Lobby?

Noam Chomsky | 06.01.2009 23:25 | Analysis | History | Palestine

A useful rebuttal of claims that the "Israel lobby" wields disproportionate influence over US foreign policy. Read this for responses to anti-semitic nutcases or sincerely confused activists that might be embarrassing you at upcoming Gaza solidarity demos.



Noam Chomsky responds to the work of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt and argues against the idea that a lobby of pro-Israel interests effectively controls US foreign policy.

Their book The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy claims that the lobby leads the US into acting against its national interest, and that the Iraq war was a result of the lobby's influence.

I've received many requests to comment on the article by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (henceforth M-W), published in the London Review of Books, which has been circulating extensively on the internet and has elicited a storm of controversy. A few thoughts on the matter follow.

It was, as noted, published in the London Review of Books, which is far more open to discussion on these issues than US journals -- a matter of relevance (to which I'll return) to the alleged influence of what M-W call "the Lobby." An article in the Jewish journal Forward quotes M as saying that the article was commissioned by a US journal, but rejected, and that "the pro-Israel lobby is so powerful that he and co-author Stephen Walt would never have been able to place their report in a American-based scientific publication." But despite the fact that it appeared in England, the M-W article aroused the anticipated hysterical reaction from the usual supporters of state violence here, from the Wall St Journal to Alan Dershowitz, sometimes in ways that would instantly expose the authors to ridicule if they were not lining up (as usual) with power.

M-W deserve credit for taking a position that is sure to elicit tantrums and fanatical lies and denunciations, but it's worth noting that there is nothing unusual about that. Take any topic that has risen to the level of Holy Writ among "the herd of independent minds" (to borrow Harold Rosenberg's famous description of intellectuals): for example, anything having to do with the Balkan wars, which played a huge role in the extraordinary campaigns of self-adulation that disfigured intellectual discourse towards the end of the millennium, going well beyond even historical precedents, which are ugly enough. Naturally, it is of extraordinary importance to the herd to protect that self-image, much of it based on deceit and fabrication. Therefore, any attempt even to bring up plain (undisputed, surely relevant) facts is either ignored (M-W can't be ignored), or sets off most impressive tantrums, slanders, fabrications and deceit, and the other standard reactions. Very easy to demonstrate, and by no means limited to these cases. Those without experience in critical analysis of conventional doctrine can be very seriously misled by the particular case of the Middle East(ME).

But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion. I've reviewed elsewhere what the record (historical and documentary) seems to me to show about the main sources of US ME policy, in books and articles for the past 40 years, and can't try to repeat here. M-W make as good a case as one can, I suppose, for the power of the Lobby, but I don't think it provides any reason to modify what has always seemed to me a more plausible interpretation. Notice incidentally that what is at stake is a rather subtle matter: weighing the impact of several factors which (all agree) interact in determining state policy: in particular, (A) strategic-economic interests of concentrations of domestic power in the tight state-corporate linkage, and (B) the Lobby.

The M-W thesis is that (B) overwhelmingly predominates. To evaluate the thesis, we have to distinguish between two quite different matters, which they tend to conflate: (1) the alleged failures of US ME policy; (2) the role of The Lobby in bringing about these consequences. Insofar as the stands of the Lobby conform to (A), the two factors are very difficult to disentagle. And there is plenty of conformity.

Let's look at (1), and ask the obvious question: for whom has policy been a failure for the past 60 years? The energy corporations? Hardly. They have made "profits beyond the dreams of avarice" (quoting John Blair, who directed the most important government inquiries into the industry, in the '70s), and still do, and the ME is their leading cash cow. Has it been a failure for US grand strategy based on control of what the State Department described 60 years ago as the "stupendous source of strategic power" of ME oil and the immense wealth from this unparalleled "material prize"? Hardly. The US has substantially maintained control -- and the significant reverses, such as the overthrow of the Shah, were not the result of the initiatives of the Lobby. And as noted, the energy corporations prospered. Furthermore, those extraordinary successes had to overcome plenty of barriers: primarily, as elsewhere in the world, what internal documents call "radical nationalism," meaning independent nationalism. As elsewhere in the world, it's been convenient to phrase these concerns in terms of "defense against the USSR," but the pretext usually collapses quickly on inquiry, in the ME as elsewhere. And in fact the claim was conceded to be false, officially, shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when Bush's National Security Strategy (1990) called for maintaining the forces aimed at the ME, where the serious "threats to our interests... could not be laid at the Kremlin's door" -- now lost as a pretext for pursuing about the same policies as before. And the same was true pretty much throughout the world.

That at once raises another question about the M-W thesis. What were "the Lobbies" that led to pursuing very similar policies throughout the world? Consider the year 1958, a very critical year in world affairs. In 1958, the Eisenhower administration identified the three leading challenges to the US as the ME, North Africa, and Indonesia -- all oil producers, all Islamic. North Africa was taken care of by Algerian (formal) independence. Indonesia and the ME were taken care of by Suharto's murderous slaughter (1965) and Israel's destruction of Arab secular nationalism (Nasser, 1967). In the ME, that established the close US-Israeli alliance and confirmed the judgment of US intelligence in 1958 that a "logical corollary" of opposition to "radical nationalism" (meaning, secular independent nationalism) is "support for Israel" as the one reliable US base in the region (along with Turkey, which entered into close relations with Israel in the same year). Suharto's coup aroused virtual euphoria, and he remained "our kind of guy" (as the Clinton administration called him) until he could no longer keep control in 1998, through a hideous record that compares well with Saddam Hussein -- who was also "our kind of guy" until he disobeyed orders in 1990. What was the Indonesia Lobby? The Saddam Lobby? And the question generalizes around the world. Unless these questions are faced, the issue (1) cannot be seriously addressed.

When we do investigate (1), we find that US policies in the ME are quite similar to those pursued elsewhere in the world, and have been a remarkable success, in the face of many difficulties: 60 years is a long time for planning success. It's true that Bush II has weakened the US position, not only in the ME, but that's an entirely separate matter.

That leads to (2). As noted, the US-Israeli alliance was firmed up precisely when Israel performed a huge service to the US-Saudis-Energy corporations by smashing secular Arab nationalism, which threatened to divert resources to domestic needs. That's also when the Lobby takes off (apart from the Christian evangelical component, by far the most numerous and arguably the most influential part, but that's mostly the 90s). And it's also when the intellectual-political class began their love affair with Israel, previously of little interest to them. They are a very influential part of the Lobby because of their role in media, scholarship, etc. From that point on it's hard to distinguish "national interest" (in the usual perverse sense of the phrase) from the effects of the Lobby. I've run through the record of Israeli services to the US, to the present, elsewhere, and won't review it again here.

M-W focus on AIPAC and the evangelicals, but they recognize that the Lobby includes most of the political-intellectual class -- at which point the thesis loses much of its content. They also have a highly selective use of evidence (and much of the evidence is assertion). Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. Without a peep from The Lobby, in either case, though it was a serious blow to Israel. There's a lot more like that. Take the worst crime in Israel's history, its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 with the goal of destroying the secular nationalist PLO and ending its embarrassing calls for political settlement, and imposing a client Maronite regime. The Reagan administration strongly supported the invasion through its worst atrocities, but a few months later (August), when the atrocities were becoming so severe that even NYT Beirut correspondent Thomas Friedman was complaining about them, and they were beginning to harm the US "national interest," Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion, then entered to complete the removal of the PLO from Lebanon, an outcome very welcome to both Israel and the US (and consistent with general US opposition to independent nationalism). The outcome was not entirely what the US-Israel wanted, but the relevant observation here is that the Reaganites supported the aggression and atrocities when that stand was conducive to the "national interest," and terminated them when it no longer was (then entering to finish the main job). That's pretty normal.

Another problem that M-W do not address is the role of the energy corporations. They are hardly marginal in US political life -- transparently in the Bush administration, but in fact always. How can they be so impotent in the face of the Lobby? As ME scholar Stephen Zunes has rightly pointed out, "there are far more powerful interests that have a stake in what happens in the Persian Gulf region than does AIPAC [or the Lobby generally], such as the oil companies, the arms industry and other special interests whose lobbying influence and campaign contributions far surpass that of the much-vaunted Zionist lobby and its allied donors to congressional races."

Do the energy corporations fail to understand their interests, or are they part of the Lobby too? By now, what's the distinction between (1) and (2), apart from the margins?

Also to be explained, again, is why US ME policy is so similar to its policies elsewhere -- to which, incidentally, Israel has made important contributions, e.g., in helping the executive branch to evade congressional barriers to carrying out massive terror in Central America, to evade embargoes against South Africa and Rhodesia, and much else. All of which again makes it even more difficult to separate (2) from (1) -- the latter, pretty much uniform, in essentials, throughout the world.

I won't run through the other arguments, but I don't feel that they have much force, on examination.

The thesis M-W propose does however have plenty of appeal. The reason, I think, is that it leaves the US government untouched on its high pinnacle of nobility, "Wilsonian idealism," etc., merely in the grip of an all-powerful force that it cannot escape. It's rather like attributing the crimes of the past 60 years to "exaggerated Cold War illusions," etc. Convenient, but not too convincing. In either case.

Orginally published on ZNet, March 28, 2006

Noam Chomsky
- Homepage: http://libcom.org/library/israel-lobby-noam-chomsky

Comments

Hide the following 15 comments

More relevant Chomsky quotes

07.01.2009 00:11

"You can't defend yourself when you are militarily occupying someone else's land. Call it what you like, it is not self-defense."

"What current advocates of a one-state (binational) settlement don’t seem to fully appreciate is that the choices are not two-states versus one-state with an internal civil rights (anti-apartheid) struggle, but rather two-states versus continuation of current US-Israeli programs, which take no responsibility for Palestinians outside of the areas Israel expects to incorporate, so that they can rot or leave. I presume that’s why bi-nationalist proposals that were anathema when they were feasible (roughly ’67-’73) are treated much more gently today, even approved in the mainstream, now that they can be exploited by the right to undermine a two-state first stage in the process.”

Chomsky


Chomsky is just a sophisticated closet Zionist. Read this from a leftist view:

07.01.2009 02:44

Noam Chomsky is actually a *very sophisticated*, intellectually sleight-of-hand, *closet Zionist*. Read these items from a leftist perspective:

-

"THE LEFT AND THE ISRAEL LOBBY"
- by Joseph Anderson
 http://sundaymag.ca/index.php?id=257, with additional comments
 http://peaceandjustice.org/article.php/20060612173054885
 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/June06/Anderson08.htm
(and elsewhere on the web)


THE CHOMSKY/BLANKFORT POLEMIC - Interview
- with Jeffrey Blankfort, anti-Zionist Jewish-American journalist and writer
 http://www.sott.net/signs/editorials/signs_TheChomskyBlankfortPolemic.php
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/04/337823.shtml, with additional comments and posts


"[ZIONIST] DAMAGE CONTROL: NOAM CHOMSKY AND THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT"
- by Jeffrey Blankfort, anti-Zionist Jewish-American journalist and writer
 http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/Chomsky.html
 http://www.voltairenet.org/article143519.html
(and elsewhere on the web)


A WAR FOR ISRAEL
- by Jeffrey Blankfort, anti-Zionist Jewish-American journalist and writer
 http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/WarForIsrael.html
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/276?l=1
( This is his no-holds-barred overview of the Jewish/Zionist lobby in the US and its part in causing the Iraqi War.)


See other articles online by Jeffrey Blankfort and, later, his forthcoming book on the Israel lobby.

-

Noam Chomsky: “I AM OPPOSED AND HAVE BEEN OPPOPSED FOR MANY YEARS…, IN FACT, I’VE PROBABLY BEEN THE *LEADING* OPPONENT FOR YEARS OF THE CAMPAIGN FOR DIVESTMENT FROM ISRAEL and of the campaign about academic boycotts.”

If Chomsky had that opposition to white South African apartheid and barbarism -- vs. *Israeli* apartheid and barbarism -- he would have long ago lost his status as "the god/guru of the white left".

-

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, California, USA


Clarification re Chomsky on boycotts, divestments and sanctions:

07.01.2009 06:44

If Chomsky had that opposition to BOYCOTTS, DIVESTMENTS AND SANCTIONS AGAINST white South African apartheid and barbarism -- vs._*NOT*_ WANTING B/D/S AGAINST *Israeli* apartheid and barbarism -- he would have long ago lost his status as "the god/guru of the white left".

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, California, USA


Israeli lobby - a class perspective

07.01.2009 09:26

Chomsky also wrote in 1991
"The Israeli lobby (not all Jewish, by any means), with its political clout and its finely-honed techniques of defamation, slander, and intimidation is highly effective in containing discussion within the narrow framework of U.S.-Israeli rejectionism and support for Israeli power and repression"
The Aftermath:  http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199110--.htm


AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee) describes itself as "America's pro-Israeli lobby".  http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp

In 1997 Fortune magazine listed AIPAC as the 2nd most powerful interest group in Washington
(3rd most powerful in 1999).

The New York Times calls AIPAC "the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel."

On it's website AIPAC states:
"AIPAC's work to ensure that the U.S.-Israel relationship remains strong and vital".

"As America’s leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC is closely involved in public policy affecting the Middle East and the U.S.-Israel relationship. from securing vital foreign aid for Israel to stopping Iran's illicit nuclear program".

AIPAC's achievements, by their own admission, include:

* Passing more than a dozen bills and resolutions condemning and imposing tough sanctions on Iran during the past 15 years.

* Securing critical security assistance to Israel each year to ensure that Israel remains capable of facing increased threats.

* Passing legislation requiring the administration to evaluate all future military sales to Arab states in the context of the need to maintain Israel’s qualitative military edge over potential adversaries.

* Reinforcing the key principles America should stand by as it works to help Israel achieve peace in letters to the president signed by 268 House members and 78 senators.

* Passing multiple resolutions affirming congressional support for Israel’s right to self-defense in the face of terrorism by the terrorist groups Hamas and Hizballah.

* Strongly urging the administration to take its decision to designate Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) as a terrorist group and weapons proliferator through an amendment supported by 76 senators and key legislation passed in the House of Representatives.

* Strengthening U.S.-Israel energy cooperation by passing legislation that establishes a grant program that funds joint projects between U.S. and Israeli entities in the field of alternative energy.

* Strengthening U.S.-Israel homeland security cooperation by passing landmark legislation creating an office within the Department of Homeland Security to support joint research and development projects between the United States and key allies such as Israel.

* Prohibiting U.S. aid and contacts with a Hamas-led PA until its leaders recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence and ratify previous Israeli-Palestinian peace agreements.

* Ratifying an agreement that led to the Israeli medical service Magen David Adom’s admission to the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement (IRC).

* Passing the Syrian Accountability Act, which allows the president to sanction Syria for its continued involvement in Lebanon and support of terrorism.

The Israel Lobby is indeed a powerful instrument.

This brings us to the class dynamics of AIPAC. What Chomsky calls, with some affection, the "intellectual-political class" that makes up the most influential part of the Israeli lobby [his words], actually downplays what AIPAC is in terms of its class structure. In essence AIPAC is acting as a surrogate ruling class abroad. To divest the Israeli lobby of its class qualities is to do a disservice to the relationship between the 2 national powers and disguise its true nature. It also allows accusations of anti-Semitism where none exist.

AIPAC's aim or purpose is not to affect or influence us foreign policy as much as protect its 'own' ruling class interest at 'home'. It should be noted that capital creation in israel is inextricably linked to the state apparatus. It is under these circumstances that we should reflect on the Israeli lobby, and not on the slightly erroneous 'disproportionate influence of us foreign policy'. And any criticism of the Israeli lobby, or its impact, should be formulated within the framework of class conflict.

"A useful rebuttal of claims that the "Israel lobby" wields disproportionate influence over US foreign policy. Read this for responses to anti-Semitic nutcases or sincerely confused activists that might be embarrassing you at upcoming Gaza solidarity demos".

If the libcom nutcases [I can use the phrase nutcases can't I given the phrase was used in the opening piece?] want to get smug and patronising about peoples responses to the events in Gaza maybe they could furnish us with something more than petty point scoring.

A\list


More useful debunking of the lobby argument

07.01.2009 10:39

I should note that Chomsky argues that AIPAC et al (who savage him relentlessly) only look successful because what they are advocating falls in line with ruling class interests, and when Israeli and US national class interests diverge and Israel is reigned in, they are largely silent, or at least utterly ineffectual. (as in the case of sales of Phalcon missiles and other technology to China, satellite technology deals with North Korea, forcing Israel to abandon plans to bomb Iran last year, forcing attendance at peace talks, bringing about the end of incursions into lebannon when they look set to strengthen rather than undermine US imperial rivals etc etc etc). Its not surprising that AIPAC claim that they are as influential as they are, it doesn't mean that they are.

Here is leftwing political scientist Stephen Zunes on the Israel lobby argument. He's written a lot on it, and definately worth checking out.
 http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4837


P.S. I wasn't aware that opposing anti-semitism was the "point scoring" of "nutcases", I thought it was an vital part of consistent anarchist politics.

Django
- Homepage: http://libcom.org


Tail wagging dog

07.01.2009 13:51

A good illustration of who wields the power in the US-Israel relationship would be the current "pause" announced by Israel, which comes after President-elect Obama finally broke his silence on the events.

Seems a good illustration of the US reining in its ally (however weakly) when it goes too far.


And if you aren't embarrassed by people waving flags with the Star of David equated to the Swastika, you need to reconsider how progressive your politics are.

CH


More on Chomsky's latter denial/obfuscation regarding the Israel lobby

07.01.2009 15:13

So, here's what Chomsky wrote in 1991:

Chomsky also wrote in 1991 (as comment poster "A\list" points out):
"The Israeli lobby (not all Jewish, by any means), with its political clout and its finely-honed techniques of defamation, slander, and intimidation is highly effective in containing discussion within the narrow framework of U.S.-Israeli rejectionism and support for Israeli power and repression"
The Aftermath:  http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199110--.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And *here's* what Chomsky said at the end of March _*2006*_ [CAPS are mine] on the very popular progressive nationally syndicated American radio show, "Democracy Now". It looks like Chomsky has greatly backslided on this issue.

Read/Watch Chomsky first *DENY*, then *OBFUSCATE*, and then *VACILLATE*, and then *ELIDE*, and then *ADMIT*, and then *OBFUSCATE* again --- AS I SAID BEFORE, IT'S ALL CHOMSKY'S USUAL SLEIGHT-OF-HAND (on this issue) --- about the Israel lobby's existence and power, and do his elision to "Nassar" and "independent/radical nationalism", and then admit that there *IS* an "Israel lobby", but that it's composed of "the educated/intellectual political class" (or in the other article/comment, posted by A\list, Chomsky goes into "the Jewish/Israeli ruling class conflict" of the lobby: gee, Chomsky's got more spins than a toy top on this issue).

Talk about _"DAZZLE WITH DUST"_ and _"BAFFLE WITH BULL[sh*t]"_ (as we say in America) --- and THE WHITE LEFT just uncritically LAPS this stuff up from Chomsky (because their modern RELIGION & DEITY is Noam Chomsky)!! Basically, Chomsky wants to 'spin doctor' away that Zionist *Jews* themselves, their racist Zionist ideology, their ideologically so-called "Jewish state", and their Israel/Zionist lobby, bear the responsibility for the *well over* half-century-long continuous dispossession, the steady economic disenfranchisement, the subjugation, and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian people in the Palestinians' own land. And Chomsky has *never condemned* nationalist Zionism in historic Palestine or declared that he, a self-declared "Anarchist", is an anti-Zionist. Directly ask Chomsky if he's a Zionist and watch him 'spin', somemore!


Chomsky, March 31, 2006, on the "Democracy Now" nationally syndicated progressive radio show, from the transcript at  http://www.democracynow.org/2006/3/31/exclusive_noam_chomsky_on_failed_states (go about half-way down the text page):


"So—and THERE'S NO LOBBY, which does raise one of a few minor points that raises questions about the validity of the critique.

It’s a serious, careful piece of work. It deserves to be read. They deserve credit for writing it. [This is called "BACKHANDED PRAISE": it's more *sophisticated* -- and Chomsky is more sophisticated to the uncritical 'thinker' -- than just coming out and denouncing someone's paper.] But it still it leaves open the question of how valid the analysis is, and I notice that there’s a pretty subtle [it's *"subtle"*: meaning that Chomsky is going to b.s. you again, yet try to cover his tracks] question involved. Everyone agrees, on all sides, that there are a number of factors that enter into determining U.S. foreign policy. One is strategic and economic interests of the major power centers within the United States. In the case of the Middle East, that means the energy corporations, arms producers, high-tech industry, financial institutions and others. Now, these are not marginal institutions, particularly in the Bush administration. So one question is to what extent does policy reflect their interests. Another question is to what extent is it influenced by domestic lobbies. And there are other factors. But just these two alone, yes, they are—you find them in most cases, and to try to sort out their influence is not so simple. In particular, it’s not simple when their interests tend to coincide, and by and large, there’s a high degree of conformity. If you look over the record, what’s called the national interest, meaning the special interests of those with—in whose hands power is concentrated, the national interest, in that sense, tends to conform to the interests of the lobbies. So in those cases, it’s pretty hard to disentangle them."


[I.e., 'We just can't tell *how* powerful the Israel lobby is, because 'it's too hard to disentangle it from other lobbies.' But Chomsky doesn't say that about any *other* lobby, like the *arms industry* lobby or the *oil industry* lobby: 'Oh, it's too hard to disentangle them from other lobbies -- like the banking lobby, or the high-tech computer industry lobby, or the industrial chemicals lobby, etc. -- and from each other to determine whether they're individually powerful'.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want to cut-&-paste extensively here (I hate it when comment posters do that when you can go read the relavant part of the article yourself). But let me briefly cut-&-paste one more Chomsky passage to make my point:

"...1967... It’s also then that the lobby gained its force. ... And they are very influential. They determine, certainly influence, the shaping of news and information in journals, media, scholarship, and so on."

[So, now, according to Chomsky, the lobby is just a loose collection of "the educated and intellectual political classes".]


Chomsky goes on to do some more obfuscation and conflation and elision talk about stuff that I independently rebut in my analytical commentary, "The Left and the Israel Lobby".

In addition, Chomsky, like other Israel lobby deniers/obfuscators, goes on to point out how Israel is somehow *uniquely* "indespensible" to U.S. foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, to which I've responded elsewhere, "Is Chomsky et al somehow, in effect, saying that Zionist Jews and Israelis, as a 'tool' of 'the WASPs ruling class' in the U.S. govt, are *indispensably* nasty people?"

(Btw, former CIA analysts Kathleen & Bill Christison also rebut, in online political journal articles, a lot of Chomsky's and other Israel lobby deniers' [like Stephen Zunes] arguments -- usually exposing the false historical claims that people like Chomsky use to bolster his claims.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Amy Goodman, the very popular host of the very popular progressive nationally syndicated radio and television show, "Democracy Now", interviewed Chomsky, but AMY GOODMAN HAS SHIELDED AND PROTECTED NOAM CHOMSKY FROM HAVING ANY INTELLECTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY ON THIS ISSUE, and from having to intellectual *defend* himself, or debate with any Israel lobby experts from the Left, like Jeffrey Blankfort, let alone with Mearsheimer & Walt (who have lectured or been interviewed in all sorts of universities, establishment venues, and on literary cable televion networks like C-Span, in the U.S. -- but they have yet to be on Democracy Now).

OH, BUT THE "GOD" CHOMSKY MUST *NOT* BE, *COMPETENTLY*, INTELLECTUALLY CHALLENGED!!

So, Amy Goodman lets Chomsky do his "backhanded praise" and take pseudo-intellectual potshots at M&W, while *never* having M&W on themselves to defend themselves against Chomsky's criticism: either to present their side or to debate Chomsky -- which *Chomsky would never allow*, because he *knows* that he wouldn't look good under a competent challenge on this issue. WELL ALMOST ANYONE HALF WAY FIT CAN LOOK GOOD *SHADOWBOXING*. But, Goodman has hosted *plenty* of debates between progressives/leftists and *right-wing wackos* on her show.

-

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, California, USA


Stephen Zunes, another "progressive" Israel lobby denier/obfuscator

07.01.2009 17:17

Django: "Here is leftwing political scientist Stephen Zunes on the Israel lobby argument. He's written a lot on it, and definately worth checking out.
 http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4837 "

I've typed enough above, for the time being, regarding Chomsky's Israel lobby denial/obfuscation, so I don't want to type another long explilcation, at least not right now, this time exposing Stephen Zunes' denial/obfuscation. But, let me say this: anyone who finds Stephen Zunes' arguments denying/diminishing the Israel lobby SIMPLY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ELECTORAL POLITICAL POWER AND THE U.S. CORPORATE NEWS MEDIA *WORKS* (which, in many ways, functions as an organ of the Republican & Democrat parties) IN THE UNITED STATES.

And most of what Zunes says in his article -- when Zunes (like the other Israel lobby deniers/diminishers) is not downright *mischaracterizing/misrepresenting* what Mearsheimer & Walt said in their book (Zunes, Chomsky et al realizing that few leftists will actually go read it) -- is just SHEER NONSENSE! Like Zunes saying that lobbies necessarily have less influence on the President than on the Congress, or indirectly saying that the Congress has no critical say in U.S. foreign policy. After the M&W book came out, and broke the taboo of even talking in formal public venues (and especially on TV) about the Israel lobby, even some *mainstream* (and, thus, by definition, pro-Israel) TV news journalists *laugh* at Zunes' kind of arguments.

(The American left remained really nervous, until the very popular, now deceased, progressive *practical* political analyst and commentator, Molly Ivins, said in her commentary, "Let's call the Israel lobby the Israel lobby", and admit it exists and has great influence in American foreign policy. But we live in the United States of *Amnesia*, so what Ivins said is long forgotten by ordinary American leftists who are still fooled by the likes of Chomsky, Zunes, Bennis et al, who are just _academic *theorists*_, not political, or political journalist, *practitioners*).

Since *very few* actual leftists (and, especially, Marxists) in the United States have ever held political office or shared actual political power, they have no *practical* experience about how practical political power, the practical American political system, and the corporate media in conjunction with it, actually works.

So, in the absence -- often censored or prevented by left media gatekeepers (like Amy Goodman of the nationally syndicated progressive radio show, "Democracy Now" and most other American progressive radio hosts) -- I call it censorship from the *Left*-- of any real pubic debate about the Israel lobby in the United States, most white-American leftists engage in naive, facile, *abstract* theories about 'how the Israel lobby's power isn't possible'.

(And, usually about, supposedly, what "Marx" said: apparently Marx said "the Israel lobby is not possible": it's like freezing all scientific knowledge about the world based on what *Newton* said. Even Britain's Tariq Ali believes, on this basis [and I don't know whether he is pro-Zionist or not], that the power of the Israel lobby is, supposedly according to "Marx", "not possible".When I merely publicly *mentioned* my analytical commentary, "The Left and the Israel Lobby", to a panel that Tariq Ali was on in a San Francsico bookstore, the first knee-jerk thing he said was, "Let's be careful not to be anti-Semitic!" -- without even hearing me out and intellectually evaluating my comments!)

Even on Berkeley progressive radio station (KPFA, part of the small Pacifica radio network), the political affairs hosts won't even let a caller intellectual criticize Stephen Zunes -- the host will cut your comments right off (and the shows & calls are on a 14-second time delay).

Thus, ordinary American leftists are easily misled by the likes of sophisticated closet/enlightened/'left' Zionists (often employing a seemingly plausible falsification of history or of the American political system to suit their arguments about their Israel lobby denial/diminishing) like Noam Chomsky or Phyllis Bennis, and open 'left' Zionists like Stephen Zunes: such people used to be called "enlightened racists". (It's like, regarding gender, "enlightened/'left' sexists", if that makes the hypocritical concept clearer -- of course, there have been and are too many leftist men who are sexist.)

Of course, there are a comparatively few leftists in the United States that don't have to be (or don't let themselves be) *dictated to* on what to think by left icons and can independently critically evaluate what even American leftist icons have to say. Celebrityism and lavish uncritical hero/guru worship of its "stars" on the America left is as much a problem as any other kind of celebrityism and lavish uncritical hero/star worship in America -- such is the general level of societal intellectual consciousness in America (but I hope it's generally higher in Britain, at least among Britain's progressive/leftist activists).

-

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, California, USA


Zionists are the ones who ought to be *embarrassed*.

07.01.2009 17:40

CH ("Tail wagging dog", 07.01.2009 13:51): "A good illustration of who wields the power in the US-Israel relationship would be the current "pause" announced by Israel, which comes after President-elect Obama finally broke his silence on the events. Seems a good illustration of the US reining in its ally (however weakly) when it goes too far."

Yeah, it's really a good illustration of a Zionist blowing *SMOKE*.


CH: "And if you aren't embarrassed by people waving flags with the Star of David equated to the Swastika, you need to reconsider how progressive your politics are."

*THAT* SHIP HAS *SAILED*, ZIONIST. It's *Zionists* and *Israel* that decided to use the Star of David (an historically relatively late representation in Jewish history) as a *POLITICAL* symbol. And even *anti-Zionist Jews* are calling or comparing Israel to the Nazis *now*!

IT'S *YOU ZIONISTS* EVERYWHERE, ALL ISRAELI JEWS, AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL THAT OUGHT TO BE *EMBARRASSED*! -- THAT (can you say "the Nazis' assault on the Warsaw ghetto or Guernica"?) THE NAZI COMPARISON, MORALLY AND HISTORICALLY , COMES SO *READILY* THESE DAYS.

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, California, USA


Pause for breath

08.01.2009 00:43

The current pause lasted exactly three hours. There hasn't been any pause in the attacks apart from that, except the existing one caused by Israeli politicians reluctance to risk IDF lives street-fighting inside Gaza city so close to an election. There has been a huge pause in the reporting of the ongoing massacre in the mainstream media. Today all the news focus is on the fact Israel is thinking about agreeing to stop killing Gazans, not that they have actually stopped. Tommorow there will be another pause of three hours in the ariel bombing and ground assualt which is hardly a testiment to US control over Israeli policy.

I don't like the loaded 'tail wagging dog' analogy as it implies bias to 'tail', since obviously tails don't wag dogs. Still, a tiny brain parasite can change behaviour in dogs, and humans, and that is a better anology for any lobby. A better dog analogy for Israel, or Turkey or the UK for that matter, is of an attack dog trained with specific commands to attack or release when it hears those words from it's masters voice. Those commands are never 'attack' or 'release', they are effectively codewords. What the US has just done is publically say 'release' to a dog who is listening for the word 'back' or 'heel'. Like a thug whose dog is ripping a pet cat to death the US can now say 'It isn't my fault'. If Israel had never existed then the US would still be launching little proxy wars in the region just now but that has more to do with oil profits than it does with religious prophets.

Daniel


pro-Chom

08.01.2009 10:05

Though it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't type in caps and asterisks and break up quotes with rants, or claim that those who don't think a 'lobby' can manipulate a ruling class against its own interests are "left" or "closet" "Zionists", I note you've basically offered nothing in the way of a counter argument and instead disagreed with Zunes' and Chomskys' (and mine, as an anarchist) views on the political process, putting it down to a lack of experience with holding power, siding instead with "TV news anchors". But I don't think theres much point in trying to change your faith in democracy against its manipulation by "the lobby". Its a faith I simply don't share.

Django


Also pro-Chom

08.01.2009 13:02

I second Django here. Whilst I must out myself as a Chomsky fan in the first place, any criticism of him (which he and his supporters I think would welcome in the spirit of intellectual enquiry) is not helped by lengthy rants and all-caps shouting. The danger with Joseph Anderson's approach, dare I say it, is that once Chomsky is denounced, then Goodman must be for protecting him, and then Zunes for that matter too, and so forth until the speaker is left looking rather out on their own.

On the substance of Chomsky's position, it is entirely true that US power has been prepared to embarrass Israel when to support it would have acted against its strategic interests. Furthermore any decent analysis of power I think will examine how the US very much uses Israel; as a religious cause, to get American `End Timers` on board; as a strategic partner to control the region, and thus the region's energy supplies; and as a destabiliser to increase levels of US military purchases and stimulate the American economy. For the several billion USD America pays every year, I'd say - suffering and destruction aside - they get a good deal. Or, put a better way: the interests of big power are largely accomplished.

That this coincides with the requirements of the Israeli Lobby is true, but as Chomsky points out, one has to decide which is the most contributing factor. It's not true that the Lobby don't make a difference, but when it comes to money, money wins hands-down every time.

Jon


Django: *Blinded* by Guru Chomsky's light!

08.01.2009 13:50

Django: "But I don't think theres much point in trying to change your faith in democracy against its manipulation by "the lobby"."


IF YOU DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE (or are even purposely misled from recognizing) that the Israel lobby exists (in the United States, the greatest organized domestic enemy against justice for the Palestinian people) -- or refuse to recognize it's power -- then *HOW* can you fight its manipulation of the democratic (and foreign policy) process -- let alone really fight for justice for the Palestinians and, perhaps, peace in the Middle East?

If you go into the ring, but refuse to acknowledge that your opponent (or his capabilities) even exists, I guarantee you that you're going to *LOSE*.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for my (and others') counter-arguments to Chomsky's, Zunes' et al assertions, I guess you're so busy & *deeply* in *denial* (and uncritical hero-worship) that you haven't even bothered to *read* them from my comment post (07.01.2009 02:44 -- 'an embarrassment of riches') above (before you claim that I don't have any counter-arguments):


"THE LEFT AND THE ISRAEL LOBBY"
- by Joseph Anderson
 http://sundaymag.ca/index.php?id=257, with additional comments
 http://peaceandjustice.org/article.php/20060612173054885
 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/June06/Anderson08.htm
(and elsewhere on the web)


THE CHOMSKY/BLANKFORT POLEMIC - Interview
- with Jeffrey Blankfort, anti-Zionist Jewish-American journalist and writer
 http://www.sott.net/signs/editorials/signs_TheChomskyBlankfortPolemic.php
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/04/337823.shtml, with additional comments and posts


"[ZIONIST] DAMAGE CONTROL: NOAM CHOMSKY AND THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT"
- by Jeffrey Blankfort, anti-Zionist Jewish-American journalist and writer
 http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/Chomsky.html
 http://www.voltairenet.org/article143519.html
(and elsewhere on the web)


And here's a new anaylitical resource:

Israel-lobby Denial: The Bankruptcy of the American Left -- As Illustrated by Stephen Zunes
- by Stephen J. Sniegoski
 http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_lobby_left.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, if you actually believe that crap that Zunes writes, then I'VE MADE MY *POINT* about leftists not having any/little *practical* understanding of how the American political (and corporate mainstream media) system actually works.

(Another one of the *sheer nonsense* assertions of Stephen Zunes is that a San Francisco congresswoman, named Nancy Pelosi, "doesn't need a single dime or vote from anyone Jewish" -- in a U.S. congressional district that is *heavily* Jewish -- in one of the wealthiest counties in the United States -- and has lots of people *married* to or *living together* with Jews, and has lots of people who otherwise have Jews in their families, and/or have Jews as close friends. Now the minute any leftist heard Zunes say that, they should have just gotten up and left, because they should have known that they were listening to a damn fool. So, Zunes is someone you'd have intellectual *confidence* in???...)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for my CAPS and *'s, it takes a *LLLOT* to try to intellectually and critically reach you glassy-eyed leftist hero-worshippers.

-

Joseph Anderson


To another Chomsky zombie:

08.01.2009 14:26

Jon: "On the substance of Chomsky's position, it is entirely true that US power has been prepared to embarrass Israel when to support it would have acted against its strategic interests."


Specifically *WHEN*, Jon???...

When it comes to Israel it's usually *THE OTHER WAY AROUND*.

(I'd rather use CAPS and **'s and be able to *think* independently, that to not use them and not be able to think independently.)

Why is it that leftists often accuse *right-wingers* of being simple-minded and wanting to explain every social/global issue in one-word answers?: but then too many *leftists*, too, want to explain *everything* as *oil*, or *money*, or whatever other single universal buzzword they might use to absolutely explain all human, political, or govt'l motivation. It's _intellectual simple-mindedness or lazyness_ on *both* their (right-wingers or such leftists) parts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Hey, I'm 'leftist', but not white: so, I'm not emotionally invested in uncritically, raptly and blindly worshipping white leftist gurus / heroes. In fact, I don't do that about *anyone*.

-

Joseph Anderson


"misrepresentation"

08.01.2009 18:25


"IF YOU DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE (or are even purposely misled from recognizing) that the Israel lobby exists (in the United States, the greatest organized domestic enemy against justice for the Palestinian people) -- or refuse to recognize it's power -- then *HOW* can you fight its manipulation of the democratic (and foreign policy) process -- let alone really fight for justice for the Palestinians and, perhaps, peace in the Middle East?"

For someone who is ranting on about how Chomsky and Zunes "misrepresent" Mearshimer and Walt it's interesting that you can't be bothered to scroll up to the original article and notice that Chomsky (and Zunes for that matter) do not deny that the Israel lobby exists, but deny that it has the capacity to shape US foreign policy against the interests of the US ruling class. I mean, Chomsky should know it exists, he is one of AIPAC's biggest targets. But hey, why read the article when you can go on about everyone who doesn't agree with you being a "closet Zionist", mirroring exactly the kind of ad hominem attacks against these authors you get from AIPAC and the like who call them "closet anti-semites".

Do you think that if the lobby didn't exist US policy in the middle east would be substantially different? I don't. There was no "Indonesian lobby" manipulating the democratic process when the East Timorese were being slaughtered by the Indonesian army, no "domestic enemy against justice for the East Timorese people" forcing the US into such embarrassing actions when it provided military, logistical and economic support to the Indonesian regime.

As for concrete examples of Israel being reigned in, there are already at least 7 listed on this thread. But why read it when you can hit the caps key and type like a 12 year old who has discovered the internet for the first time?

Anyway, I have very little interest in this, as clearly nothing will sway you from your internet quest. Readers who are interested in the matter can look at the arguments and most importantly the evidence surrounding the matter.

P.S. I'm hardly blinded by Chomsky's light, I have strong disagreements with him on other matters but in this instance his approach is very sensible and most importantly evidence led.

P.P.S. You must some amazing telepathic skills to be able to decipher my race from Indymedia comments.

Django


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