No State Solution for Gaza
Zulemma | 14.01.2009 22:34
Statement distributed by the Manchester and Sheffield Anarchist Federation groups on the conflict in Gaza, in solidarity with the victims of the conflict, and for internationalism.
One thing is absolutely clear about the current situation in Gaza: the Israeli state is committing atrocities which must end immediately. With hundreds dead and thousands wounded, it has become increasingly clear that the aim of the military operation, which has been in the planning stages since the signing of the original ceasefire in June, is to break Hamas completely. The attack follows the crippling blockade throughout the supposed ‘ceasefire’, which has destroyed the livelihoods of Gazans, ruined the civilian infrastructure and created a humanitarian disaster which anyone with an ounce of humanity would seek an end to.
But that's not all there is to say about the situation. On both sides of the conflict, the idea that opposing Israel has to mean supporting Hamas and its ‘resistance’ movement is worryingly common. We totally reject this argument. Just like any other set of rulers, Hamas, like all the other major Palestinian factions, are happy and willing to sacrifice ordinary Palestinians to increase their power. This isn’t some vague theoretical point – for a period recently most deaths in Gaza were a result of fighting between Hamas and Fatah. The ‘choices’ offered to ordinary Palestinian people are between Islamist gangsters (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) or nationalist gangsters (Fatah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigades). These groups have shown their willingness to attack working-class attempts to improve their living conditions, seizing union offices, kidnapping prominent trade unionists, and breaking strikes. One spectacular example is the attack on Palestine Workers Radio by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, for “stoking internal conflicts”. Clearly, a “free Palestine” under the control of any of these groups would be nothing of the sort.
As anarchists, we are internationalists, opposing the idea that the rulers and ruled within a nation have any interests in common. Therefore, anarchists reject Palestinian nationalism just as we reject Israeli nationalism (Zionism). Ethnicity does not grant “rights” to lands, which require the state to enforce them. People, on the other hand, have a right to having their human needs met, and should be able to live where they choose, freely.
Therefore, against the divisions and false choices set up by nationalism, we fully support the ordinary inhabitants of Gaza and Israel against state warfare – not because of their nationality, ethnicity, or religion, but simply because they're real living, feeling, thinking, suffering, struggling human beings. And this support has to mean total hostility to all those who would oppress and exploit them –the Israeli state and the Western governments and corporations that supply it with weapons, but also any other capitalist factions who seek to use ordinary working-class Palestinians as pawns in their power struggles. The only real solution is one which is collective, based on the fact that as a class, globally, we ultimately have nothing but our ability to work for others, and everything to gain in ending this system – capitalism – and the states and wars it needs .
That this seems like a “difficult” solution does not stop it from being the right one. Any “solution” that means endless cycles of conflict, which is what nationalism represents, is no solution at all. And if that is the case, the fact that it is “easier” is irrelevant. There are sectors of Palestinian society which are not dominated by the would-be rulers – protests organised by village committees in the West Bank for instance. These deserve our support. As do those in Israel who refuse to fight, and who resist the war. But not the groups who call on Palestinians to be slaughtered on their behalf by one of the most advanced armies in the world, and who wilfully attack civilians on the other side of the border.
Neither one state nor two states, but no states
Whoever dies, Hamas and the Israeli state win
But that's not all there is to say about the situation. On both sides of the conflict, the idea that opposing Israel has to mean supporting Hamas and its ‘resistance’ movement is worryingly common. We totally reject this argument. Just like any other set of rulers, Hamas, like all the other major Palestinian factions, are happy and willing to sacrifice ordinary Palestinians to increase their power. This isn’t some vague theoretical point – for a period recently most deaths in Gaza were a result of fighting between Hamas and Fatah. The ‘choices’ offered to ordinary Palestinian people are between Islamist gangsters (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) or nationalist gangsters (Fatah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigades). These groups have shown their willingness to attack working-class attempts to improve their living conditions, seizing union offices, kidnapping prominent trade unionists, and breaking strikes. One spectacular example is the attack on Palestine Workers Radio by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, for “stoking internal conflicts”. Clearly, a “free Palestine” under the control of any of these groups would be nothing of the sort.
As anarchists, we are internationalists, opposing the idea that the rulers and ruled within a nation have any interests in common. Therefore, anarchists reject Palestinian nationalism just as we reject Israeli nationalism (Zionism). Ethnicity does not grant “rights” to lands, which require the state to enforce them. People, on the other hand, have a right to having their human needs met, and should be able to live where they choose, freely.
Therefore, against the divisions and false choices set up by nationalism, we fully support the ordinary inhabitants of Gaza and Israel against state warfare – not because of their nationality, ethnicity, or religion, but simply because they're real living, feeling, thinking, suffering, struggling human beings. And this support has to mean total hostility to all those who would oppress and exploit them –the Israeli state and the Western governments and corporations that supply it with weapons, but also any other capitalist factions who seek to use ordinary working-class Palestinians as pawns in their power struggles. The only real solution is one which is collective, based on the fact that as a class, globally, we ultimately have nothing but our ability to work for others, and everything to gain in ending this system – capitalism – and the states and wars it needs .
That this seems like a “difficult” solution does not stop it from being the right one. Any “solution” that means endless cycles of conflict, which is what nationalism represents, is no solution at all. And if that is the case, the fact that it is “easier” is irrelevant. There are sectors of Palestinian society which are not dominated by the would-be rulers – protests organised by village committees in the West Bank for instance. These deserve our support. As do those in Israel who refuse to fight, and who resist the war. But not the groups who call on Palestinians to be slaughtered on their behalf by one of the most advanced armies in the world, and who wilfully attack civilians on the other side of the border.
Neither one state nor two states, but no states
Whoever dies, Hamas and the Israeli state win
Zulemma
Additions
A better statement
15.01.2009 10:42
the Af statement is just not useful. This is a much better anarchist response ( from: 
http://www.anarkismo.net/article/11133 )
The Gaza slaughter: Europe's hand is bloodied too
Hundreds of dead and thousands of injured, sacrificed on the altar of Zionist expansionism and fundamentalism. In Europe, the foreign ministers of every EU country talk about an "exaggerated", though "legitimate", reaction on the part of Israel, reversing the true situation with an operation that would make the most cynical illusionist feel proud by making the aggressor, the State of Israel, appear to be the victim.
They continue to pretend that they do not remember that Gaza - one of the most densely-populated regions with around one and a half million inhabitants, about half of whom are children - has been the object of a total embargo for years, an embargo which includes medicines and basic necessities and which is supported by the entire "civilized" western world, imposed by Israel and the West as a result of the Hamas election victory, thanks to the mixed electoral system of majority and proportional representation. Just as they pretend to forget that Hamas was once financed by Israel as a way of countering the PLO.
Despite a 6-month truce, the embargo was not even slightly relaxed and not one of the Western powers even timidly suggested relaxing it. The State of Israel has returned to its strategy of military control over Gaza and the West Bank. All Europe's useless, hypocritical proclamations of a desire for peace systematically forget to mention that for 60 years Israel has been blithely violating countless UN resolutions and continues to occupy the territory militarily, with Israeli colonies spreading throughout Palestinian land day by day, building walls that segregate entire villages and prevent millions of refugees from returning to their land, uprooting olive groves and killing livestock, day after day humiliating anyone who tries to cross the segregation walls in order to go to work, to hospital or to school.
And not only that: they hide the fact that the truce was broken by the Israeli State on 4th November 2008 when its army killed a 22-year-old Hamas militant.
But aside from the false, hypocritical proclamations of pacifism, what is the reason for this unconditional support for such an aggressive, warmongering State by practically every major Western power?
As far as the USA is concerned, there is no doubt. Apart from the important strategic and territorial alliance that Israel represents for American imperialism in the Middle East, it also has to deal with the powerful US pro-Israel lobby, which is strong enough to bring about a strong influence on US foreign policy. And what is happening today comes across as a clear warning to the president-elect, Obama.
Europe has partially regained its unity on foreign policy and is probably playing the card of active diplomacy in order to strengthen its role in the Mediterranean and to warn the USA that it cannot act alone in the Mare Nostrum[1] area. But one must not forget arms sales, an area where States are always ready to hide the truth under the blanket of "State secrets" and support the orders of those companies who produce arms and support systems. And these businesses are never biased. They are quite happy to sell arms to opposing parties, as long as they can pay for them. Italy, for example, is one of the biggest arms suppliers to Iran and Lebanon, but has also supplied the Israeli army for years with arms technology through companies like Oto-Melara, Beretta, Borletti and Selenia. And the other countries in Europe do likewise.
Palestine is cynically used as an experimentation ground for deadly new technologies which are increasingly specialising in "urban warfare" and in which every arms company is interested: from US and Israeli companies to English, French, German, Italian, and so on.
So, in this tortured land where men, women and children, crushed by the wargames of the powerful, seem to have no future, new arms are tested, from cluster bombs to impoverished uranium bullets, the effectiveness of UAVs (pilotless aircraft) - able to launch remote controlled missiles - is studied, Achzarit tanks able to withstand landmines are experimented, Namer armoured vehicles with Continental Motors (US) or MTU (German) engines are tested, as is the efficacy of avant-garde systems such as Italian added protection and remote-controlled turrets mounted on Puma armoured vehicles, and Alenia's futuristic robotic war systems such as Sky-X, the first system in the world able to refuel pilotless aircraft in flight.
All this on the shoulders of a people who have always been used in clashes between States and others, cynically used even in the political clashes between the internal factions of one State, as in the case of Israeli political machinations connected with the electoral struggle both within the governing coalition between the hawkish Kadima, responsible for some of the most extreme acts - like the evacuation of the Strip proposed by the MK Yisrael Hasson - on the one hand and the Labour doves, in favour of a more measured approach, on the other, and between Kadima and the Likud super-hawks, increasingly moving towards ultra hardline positions.
We certainly do not expect the Arab and/or Islamic States to do anything, divided as they are or intent on strengthening their prestige and their influence in the area, even if it comes at the cost of the Palestinian people. Like the case of Iran, that uses the Palestinian tragedy to publicise itself as the only bulwark against the hated American imperialism and set itself up as the emerging power in the region.
But beyond all the international political conjecturing, the situation of the Palestinian population today seems bleak, with few prospects for reaching a solution that can give them a chance for a life with even a minimum of dignity, both from the point of view of social security and from that of guaranteeing respect of the minimum rights of survival.
Today perhaps the only guarantee that the Palestinian people may, as quickly as possible, find even a little respite and peace is that the marauders of all shapes and sizes - physically or ideologically thronging at their borders, or engaging in political speculation inside - reach a new, precarious balance.
The only real prospect for emancipation that we can glimpse in the near future is a growth and spread of the sort of self-organisation that many Palestinian villages practise, encouraged by the solidarity between Palestinian popular committees and initiatives such as Anarchists Against the Wall, involving internationalists from all over the world and anti-Zionist Israelis, who fight the arrogance of the Israeli settler colonists and the army that supports them using prevalently peaceful resistance. And it is not by chance that in these villages another road has been chosen and not the militarism of Hamas.
As class-struggle anarchists and libertarians we will continue to denounce Zionist settler colonialismm as we denounce all forms of imperialism and fundamentalism that oppress the liberty and dignity of every people. We will go on denouncing the fact that huge swathes of the world's proletariat suffer under the oppression and misery that results from inter-imperialist clashes and the cynical political games of powerful local oligarchs who are in turn used, knowingly or unknowingly, as pawns in the international chessboard of imperialist disputes, marked with the blood of the proletariat.
We will continue to support the struggles and act of solidarity with the Palestinian people, supporting all those embryonic manifestations of self-determination that typify the struggles of whole villages in Palestine, convinced that only if they can free themselves of the malicious influences of all State or para-State oligarchies can the working men and women begin to hope for a more dignified life.
2 January 2009
Federazione dei Comunisti Anarchici (Italy)
Zabalaza Anarchist Communist Front (South Africa)
Common Cause (Ontario, Canada)
Members of Anarchists Against the Wall (Israel)
Alternative Libertaire (France)
Note:
1. Literally "our sea", used by the imperial Romans with reference to the Mediterranean. The suggestion is that the modern European powers want to control the Med as the Romans did 2,000 years ago.
Related Link: http://www.anarkismo.net
http://www.anarkismo.net/article/11133 ) The Gaza slaughter: Europe's hand is bloodied too
Hundreds of dead and thousands of injured, sacrificed on the altar of Zionist expansionism and fundamentalism. In Europe, the foreign ministers of every EU country talk about an "exaggerated", though "legitimate", reaction on the part of Israel, reversing the true situation with an operation that would make the most cynical illusionist feel proud by making the aggressor, the State of Israel, appear to be the victim.
They continue to pretend that they do not remember that Gaza - one of the most densely-populated regions with around one and a half million inhabitants, about half of whom are children - has been the object of a total embargo for years, an embargo which includes medicines and basic necessities and which is supported by the entire "civilized" western world, imposed by Israel and the West as a result of the Hamas election victory, thanks to the mixed electoral system of majority and proportional representation. Just as they pretend to forget that Hamas was once financed by Israel as a way of countering the PLO.
Despite a 6-month truce, the embargo was not even slightly relaxed and not one of the Western powers even timidly suggested relaxing it. The State of Israel has returned to its strategy of military control over Gaza and the West Bank. All Europe's useless, hypocritical proclamations of a desire for peace systematically forget to mention that for 60 years Israel has been blithely violating countless UN resolutions and continues to occupy the territory militarily, with Israeli colonies spreading throughout Palestinian land day by day, building walls that segregate entire villages and prevent millions of refugees from returning to their land, uprooting olive groves and killing livestock, day after day humiliating anyone who tries to cross the segregation walls in order to go to work, to hospital or to school.
And not only that: they hide the fact that the truce was broken by the Israeli State on 4th November 2008 when its army killed a 22-year-old Hamas militant.
But aside from the false, hypocritical proclamations of pacifism, what is the reason for this unconditional support for such an aggressive, warmongering State by practically every major Western power?
As far as the USA is concerned, there is no doubt. Apart from the important strategic and territorial alliance that Israel represents for American imperialism in the Middle East, it also has to deal with the powerful US pro-Israel lobby, which is strong enough to bring about a strong influence on US foreign policy. And what is happening today comes across as a clear warning to the president-elect, Obama.
Europe has partially regained its unity on foreign policy and is probably playing the card of active diplomacy in order to strengthen its role in the Mediterranean and to warn the USA that it cannot act alone in the Mare Nostrum[1] area. But one must not forget arms sales, an area where States are always ready to hide the truth under the blanket of "State secrets" and support the orders of those companies who produce arms and support systems. And these businesses are never biased. They are quite happy to sell arms to opposing parties, as long as they can pay for them. Italy, for example, is one of the biggest arms suppliers to Iran and Lebanon, but has also supplied the Israeli army for years with arms technology through companies like Oto-Melara, Beretta, Borletti and Selenia. And the other countries in Europe do likewise.
Palestine is cynically used as an experimentation ground for deadly new technologies which are increasingly specialising in "urban warfare" and in which every arms company is interested: from US and Israeli companies to English, French, German, Italian, and so on.
So, in this tortured land where men, women and children, crushed by the wargames of the powerful, seem to have no future, new arms are tested, from cluster bombs to impoverished uranium bullets, the effectiveness of UAVs (pilotless aircraft) - able to launch remote controlled missiles - is studied, Achzarit tanks able to withstand landmines are experimented, Namer armoured vehicles with Continental Motors (US) or MTU (German) engines are tested, as is the efficacy of avant-garde systems such as Italian added protection and remote-controlled turrets mounted on Puma armoured vehicles, and Alenia's futuristic robotic war systems such as Sky-X, the first system in the world able to refuel pilotless aircraft in flight.
All this on the shoulders of a people who have always been used in clashes between States and others, cynically used even in the political clashes between the internal factions of one State, as in the case of Israeli political machinations connected with the electoral struggle both within the governing coalition between the hawkish Kadima, responsible for some of the most extreme acts - like the evacuation of the Strip proposed by the MK Yisrael Hasson - on the one hand and the Labour doves, in favour of a more measured approach, on the other, and between Kadima and the Likud super-hawks, increasingly moving towards ultra hardline positions.
We certainly do not expect the Arab and/or Islamic States to do anything, divided as they are or intent on strengthening their prestige and their influence in the area, even if it comes at the cost of the Palestinian people. Like the case of Iran, that uses the Palestinian tragedy to publicise itself as the only bulwark against the hated American imperialism and set itself up as the emerging power in the region.
But beyond all the international political conjecturing, the situation of the Palestinian population today seems bleak, with few prospects for reaching a solution that can give them a chance for a life with even a minimum of dignity, both from the point of view of social security and from that of guaranteeing respect of the minimum rights of survival.
Today perhaps the only guarantee that the Palestinian people may, as quickly as possible, find even a little respite and peace is that the marauders of all shapes and sizes - physically or ideologically thronging at their borders, or engaging in political speculation inside - reach a new, precarious balance.
The only real prospect for emancipation that we can glimpse in the near future is a growth and spread of the sort of self-organisation that many Palestinian villages practise, encouraged by the solidarity between Palestinian popular committees and initiatives such as Anarchists Against the Wall, involving internationalists from all over the world and anti-Zionist Israelis, who fight the arrogance of the Israeli settler colonists and the army that supports them using prevalently peaceful resistance. And it is not by chance that in these villages another road has been chosen and not the militarism of Hamas.
As class-struggle anarchists and libertarians we will continue to denounce Zionist settler colonialismm as we denounce all forms of imperialism and fundamentalism that oppress the liberty and dignity of every people. We will go on denouncing the fact that huge swathes of the world's proletariat suffer under the oppression and misery that results from inter-imperialist clashes and the cynical political games of powerful local oligarchs who are in turn used, knowingly or unknowingly, as pawns in the international chessboard of imperialist disputes, marked with the blood of the proletariat.
We will continue to support the struggles and act of solidarity with the Palestinian people, supporting all those embryonic manifestations of self-determination that typify the struggles of whole villages in Palestine, convinced that only if they can free themselves of the malicious influences of all State or para-State oligarchies can the working men and women begin to hope for a more dignified life.
2 January 2009
Federazione dei Comunisti Anarchici (Italy)
Zabalaza Anarchist Communist Front (South Africa)
Common Cause (Ontario, Canada)
Members of Anarchists Against the Wall (Israel)
Alternative Libertaire (France)
Note:
1. Literally "our sea", used by the imperial Romans with reference to the Mediterranean. The suggestion is that the modern European powers want to control the Med as the Romans did 2,000 years ago.
Related Link:
http://www.anarkismo.net
glad I didn't join the AF
Comments
Hide the following 35 comments
Response
15.01.2009 00:23
"But that's not all there is to say about the situation. On both sides of the conflict, the idea that opposing Israel has to mean supporting Hamas and its ‘resistance’ movement is worryingly common."
This is a straw man argument. I have not found a single article on Indymedia or met a single person, including many Muslims who support Hamas on the demos I have attended in the past weeks. I am sure there are some, but it is not a problem worth noting. Most people are out protesting to show solidarity with the Palestinian people. However, I am pretty sure that these protestors are glad that at least SOMEONE is defending the Palestinian people. Hamas, whether we like them or not provide healthcare and schools in Palestine, this is why they were elected. The Israelis meanwhile have used an economic blockade to reduce the Palestinians to abject poverty. It is no contradiction to be glad that the Palestinians have some support, even if you abhor the political ideology of Hamas. Only zionists and anti-semites benefit from confusing these two issues.
"Hamas, like all the other major Palestinian factions, are happy and willing to sacrifice ordinary Palestinians to increase their power."
"But not the groups who call on Palestinians to be slaughtered on their behalf by one of the most advanced armies in the world"
Yes, Hamas and Fatah have been fighting which has resulted in the deaths of innocent Palestinians, but this sounds very close to the official Israeli state line that 'Hamas are responsible for the Palestinian people we kill when we carpet bomb their homes'. Again this statement plays into the hands of zionists by suggesting that that the IDF are not systematically trying to destroy the Palestinian people.
Anon
Out-communiqued...
15.01.2009 00:44
..who has something far more interesting and radical to say than 'Manchester and Sheffield Anarchist Federation' :)
Anon
The above is NOT a class struggle perspective
15.01.2009 02:16
A genuine working anarchist perspective has to be sought elsewhere.
Working Class Anarchist
Intifada not Masada
15.01.2009 10:20
Opposing the British state isn't that brave. Opposing the Israeli state is almost suicidal. Opposing the Palestinian state from the safety of Britain is cowardice at best.
Anarchism is our shared aim, but oppressed people first need to experience the safety of a state, the safety you were born into and most Gazans have never known. Remove the fear and love will fill the gap. Once they can walk their streets without fear, once they have had time to elect corrupt politicians, then - and only then - can any British anarchist lecture them on anarchism. You haven't achieved anarchism in Manchester or Sheffield despite living in one of the most prosperous and peaceful countries so you are unworthy and irrelevant to criticise anyone let alone the Palestinians.
10:20
Strawman?
15.01.2009 10:38
And where did you get this from? I know many people who have gone to Palestine to support the Palestinian people and their right to resist - I don't know one who has gone to Palestine to support Hamas.........
ISMer
pro-AF
15.01.2009 11:43
"The only real prospect for emancipation that we can glimpse in the near future is a growth and spread of the sort of self-organisation that many Palestinian villages practise, encouraged by the solidarity between Palestinian popular committees and initiatives such as Anarchists Against the Wall, involving internationalists from all over the world and anti-Zionist Israelis, who fight the arrogance of the Israeli settler colonists and the army that supports them using prevalently peaceful resistance. And it is not by chance that in these villages another road has been chosen and not the militarism of Hamas."
This isn't very accurate. The self-organisation of west-bank villages isn't really in opposition to Hamas, as the west bank is dominated by Fatah. And I don't understand the idea of "usefulness" - political statements offer political perspectives and political support, they don't offer material support for anything.
But I think its amusing that anyone can say that a statement which condemns outright the israeli bombing campaign and seige is "collaboration". Its also funny that the internet posters who condemn criticism of a "resistance" which murders workers offer nothing more than political support themselves (of the kind we offer to palestinian people, not factions, and Israeli refuseniks)- its not like any of them are stupid enough to attempt to smuggle weapons or funds to the 'resistance' (who is this? Hamas? Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades? Islamic Jihad? or is it the same people we support in the document?).
I should add that the document was composed in part as a result of dialogues with anarchist internationalists who have worked with the ISM or with the Israeli anarchist movement.
I should also add that this document has also been distributed by Solfed in Brighton, Organise in Northern Ireland, by members of No Borders in the north west and by anarchists in Australia and New Zealand.
"Middle class politics students". Lol, fail.
AFer
Action Against Zionism
15.01.2009 11:49
Zionism started as a Statist movement which offered protection to Jews oppressed by European states. They became the oppressor.
The Palestinian Authority has been putting down demonstrations in the West Bank and collaborating with the occupier.
The Zionists have made Gaza the most densely populated place on earth.
The Nazis made the Warsaw Ghetto the most densely populated place on earth.
In the Warsaw Ghetto, (once the Zionist leaders who collaborated with the Nazis had been assassinated), Anarchists, other Socialists and Zionists fought together against the Nazi occupier. Their resistance was an inspiration to all those fighting fascism.
Climate Change means that continuing wars will kill us all. Solidarity with everyone taking direct action against this militarism!
The Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their land. This is not because of their nationality and does not require a state; they have the deeds to the land and could defend it themselves with sufficient mutual aid. The vanguardist armchair wankers from Manchester and Sheffield's suggestion that only The State can get the Palestinians their land back is against Anarchism.
Schnews commentary is good.
Fool!
Homepage:
http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news661.htm
Good statement AF!
15.01.2009 12:24
I don't see why the statement from anarkismo, has been promoted to a addition especially with it being presented in this hostile manner, can they not work out how to post there own articles?
RG
AF
15.01.2009 12:29
No menton of the disturbing class dynamics ongoing in israel (ie absolutely no mention of arab israelis who have ben reduced to second class citizens by the israeli ruling class).
The statement seems an ill-considered (despite the many afers seemingly doing spellcheck) knee jerk reaction to the mystifying assumption that we all support hamas!?
The af statement is what happens when you let middle class kids play with class politics.
willy coyote
Who's kidding who?
15.01.2009 12:47
Seriously how old were the people who wrote this, and why did the older working class members of the group agree to it being published as it stands?
ex-AF
Wait, what?
15.01.2009 12:50
A) They have already elected corrupt politicians. I really can't see what you're getting at there.
B) As mentioned in the statement, those politicians have been responsible for killing dissidents, just like any other set of politicians. If they actually had a proper state apparatus to use, I'm sure they'd do this more. How is any of that something we should support.
As to everyone commenting that they, or the ISM or whoever, don't support Hamas, and that confusing the issue only helps zionists and anti-semites - of course, and we're not saying you do. That's why we're so keen to avoid any confusion on the issue. However, the hostility we've attracted shows that there are clearly some who do, and the SWP certainly aren't going to offer this kind of class analysis. There have been pro-Hamas slogans at the demos and meetings we've attended, that's why we produced this in the first place.
One of AF
Hmm....
15.01.2009 13:00
Erm...where exactly do they say that? They're saying that they're against all forms of nationalism and that the ultimate goal should be stateless world run by the workers, no?
Whilst I agree that this should be the ultimate goal, I also agree with the people saying this isn't exactly helpful. As far as I can see, noone is giving support to Hamas. Hamas are not the shining saviours of the Palestinian people, I think we can all agree with that. But at the moment it is not Hamas who are bombing the hell out of Gaza.
There seems to be a big fear amongst people that if they're too strongly in favour of Palestine that makes them a supporter of Hamas and thus an Anti-Semite, and noone wants to be accused of that. But as far as I can see it, they really aren't many people saying 'Yay! Hamas, they're awesome aren't they?'. If someone does say that, then yea, point out the fact that they are still a nationalist group and they've done some pretty horrendous things themselves, but repeatedly pointing it out when noone is saying Hamas are great is kind of accusing other (ok, no kind of, it's outright accusing others) of being pro-Hamas/anti-Semitic when they are in fact just pro-Palestine - which is always going to get people riled up.
Obviously the end goal is a stateless world where noone is oppressed and everyone is happy and smiley, but you can't jump straight to that. At the moment the major problem for the Palestinian people is that they're being shot at and bombed - first that needs to stop. Obviously, any worker/community led initiative deserves our support and solidarity, but if they're up against one of the most advanced armies in the world I don't think they're going to jump from oppressed people to a free, workers' paradise. Suggesting that that's what should be done was always going to wind people up, so I don't really know why you decided to post that, I'm guessing it didn't come out the way you hoped.
Lets first stop the bombs, then start working to create a shiny happy anarchist world.
Equally, there's no need to slag of Manchester and Sheffield AF. Granted, they could've worded it better but their general statement that all working class struggles in Palestine need our support and that Hamas aren't some magical saviour is correct.
Not one of Shef AF
Re: 'Not one of Shef AF'
15.01.2009 14:01
2 things - firstly lots of people (not necessarily anarchists, leftists in general) *are* supporting hamas, or at least 'the resistance' (nice euphemism), e.g. this
secondly, being "just pro-Palestine" is *exactly* the kind of uncritical soft nationalism the AF statement is warning against - (anarchist) communists shouldn't take sides between 'nations' for the reasons they outline, as it means collapsing class differences and thus supporting the 'indiginous' ruling class, who are more than happy to sacrifice 'their' people as martyrs in their jostling for state power. it's not an FA cup tie where we support the plucky underdog, it's a barbaric asymmetric conflict. therefore our solidarity has to be with concrete human beings and their struggles, not abstract imagined communities.
"Obviously the end goal is a stateless world where noone is oppressed and everyone is happy and smiley...Suggesting that that's what should be done was always going to wind people up, so I don't really know why you decided to post that"
you're ignoring the fact the very paragraph you're referring to *does* explain why they say it; that the endless cycle of conflict that nationalism in all its forms entails is no solution at all, and therefore the fact the actual solution is difficult is neither here nor there. they then suggest some concrete things we should support to this end (refuseniks, village committees...). the situation in palestine/israel is grim, hope in the middle east is more likely to emerge from things like the wildcat strike movement in Ghazl-e-Mahalla in Egypt, and perhaps spread from there.
in any case, it's not like the statement shirks from criticising israeli actions, which it describes in the very first sentence as "atrocities which must end immediately" - it simply stresses that the anarchist response to a war between nations is not to take sides but to oppose all nationalism. given the prevalence of nationalism ('of the oppressed') ideology on the left, this needs to be said.
JK.
@ JK
15.01.2009 15:13
I know that they were trying to stress that you should not take sides but should oppose nationalism, I think there are very few people on here who would disagree with that, my point was that this; people have gotten annoyed because of the tone of the article, not because they think you SHOULD support Hamas. I know some of the people who wrote it and know that they would not mean it in that way, but even I got a slight twinge when I read it, so for someone who doesn't know them I can see how it would read as something written by a bunch of smug middle class students - but they're not (so people should stop calling them wankers etc, they're not 'armchair activists.)
Not one of Shef AF
That is NOT useful
15.01.2009 15:46
Plus, if you remove all the info on foreign western policy (that reads like a Chomsky article on the matter), weapons testing, arms sales, etc. all that is left in the final paragraphs is a no state solution very similar to what AF are saying. Quote: "the malicious influences of all State or para-State oligarchies" Only that they prefer to speak of para state oligarchies instead of Hamas, probably to avoid the kind of criticism that AF plain speaking has atracted from nationalist and leftist circles.
So if there is something that is NOT useful, is that kind of promoting my thing instead of yours competition mentality.
Not an AFer
@ RG
15.01.2009 15:54
Where is the evidence to support your claim that there is a "default reaction of so many on the left to support hamas"? Someone claims that there are many pro-Hamas banners - I don't see them in the photos.
"I don't see why the statement from anarkismo, has been promoted to a addition especially with it being presented in this hostile manner, can they not work out how to post there own articles?"
It was clearly posted as a response to the AF statement - which suggests that they (like you) think like Mark Regev the Israeli spokesperson:
"Regev: This boat is not really about humanitarian aid. The Free Gaza Movement is a group of Hamas sympathizers. ......."
If the AF statement was clear about who it was aimed at - maybe there wouldn't be such a negative responnse to it. One can only hope that they aren't parroting the Regev line.
GRRRR
?
15.01.2009 16:16
I have myself seen plently of pro-Hamas flags and placards on demos and the SWP are supporters of Hamas. I have heard SWP folk on megaphones talking about how we must offer our support to Hamas despite them being essentially a fascist party.
The statement from the AF is aimed at all those who attend demo's in support of the paople of Gaza and should act as a warning that the situation is not as simple as anti-Hamas=pro-Israel.
Anti-State, Anti-Israel, Anti-Palestine
Pro-Working Class, Pro-Revolution
Anyone with half a brain or an ounce of class conciousness does not support one party of the bourgeoisie against another. A true anarchist/communist/socialist supports the class not their oppressors.
miserablist
Homepage:
http://miserablist.info
re: 'who it's aimed at'
15.01.2009 16:38
on the other hand, nationalist sentiments are widespread on the left (just look at the amount of palestinian flag-waving), and amongst the wider public. therefore a leaflet stressing that the appeal of 'the nationalism of the oppressed' in response to israeli barbarism is a false one that only perpetuates ruling classes sacrificing ordinary people in their power struggles is an important thing to say.
JK.
No support for Hamas?
15.01.2009 17:39
One of AF
No national solutions
15.01.2009 17:48
The tone of the demos that have been taking place has been mostly Free-Palestine. This is spreading a dangerous illusion. That is the stupid notion that it is possible for any state to be independent or any nation to be free.
Firstly it is stupid because it suggests a commonality of interests between rulers and ruled in "free states". That exists no more there than it does over here. To say otherwise borders on racism - class struggle is OK for us, but not for them.
Secondly it portrays the nonsensical idea that any nation can be free of imperialism. Imperialism isn't anything special, it is simply the way that modern capitalism works. Every state exists to some degree under the imperialist sway of another - except the really big powers like the US and to a lesser extent Russia and China. All newly formed states can do is to move from the orbit of one imperial power to that of another.
What is the real situation in Israel? Whatever the ideology that the Israeli state uses to justify its actions, the reality is that it exists because its existence suits US capital. The middle east is the center of the world's energy resources. The US wants to control that region or at the very least to make sure nobody else does. Having a proxy power like Israel destabilises the region. Every other state knows it has to either come to terms with Israel or oppose it. That means bowing to the might of the USA. If they don't, then the US can always unleash the dogs of war. It's a classic case of divide and rule. Without massive US aid, Israel wouldn't be able to exist as a modern western state. After all, it controls precious few natural resources apart from agricultural ones.
Let's suppose Palestine existed as a state, either in a two state solution or a one state solution. Either way it would have to be either a client of the US or a client of some other power. The most likely other power with Hamas in power would be Iran, with its brutal theocratic regime that murders gays, oppresses women and attacks independent workers organisation. That state would entrench just those Islamist values in Palestine - a region that used to be secular and moving towards a more equalitarian society. It would also be a poor country.
The support for Hamas as ignores their role in this war. The war has as much to do with their power struggle with Fatah as anything else. Clearly they want to portray themselves as the true resistance. Given the brutality of the Israeli blockade and incursions over recent years they had two choices - either make ineffective efforts to fight back - the rockets, or to role over and play dead. Doing the latter would have been a sure recipe for their own eclipse by others. Neither option offers anything of any hope to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians locked in the Israeli prison camp that is Gaza.
Instead of standing round under national flags we need to be looking for ways to act in genuine solidarity with those being shot and killed. It could start with trying to force British companies that supply the Israeli military to stop. It'd be hard to do, it's so much easier to scream.
knightrose
e-mail:
manchester@af-north.org
Homepage:
http://www.af-north.org
re Strawman?
15.01.2009 20:12
Quite a few posters have said that they've been on solidarity stuff and haven't heard support for Hamas, others have written that they've been to such rallies and have. I have myself. And you're not going to post photos of Hamas banners, whether on the BBC or IMC if you don't want to promote them, doh (I haven't seen it therefore it doesn't exist...)!
I've also heard far too much that well dodgy "from the river to the sea" chant - though you could take it as support for a one-state solution etc, how it sounds to people who know less, or haven't thought about it, as well as to some who have, is supporting the Hamas and other extremist leaders wanting to push the Jews into the sea.
And if some people are against what's happening, now or long-term, then that doesn't automatically mean you have to be pro-Palestinian. When we went to the West Bank, the majority of us could say we were there for peace, standing with the oppressed, without then having to wave Palestinian flags, or support nationalism. Shouldn't be too hard hey?! And I for one will continue challenging Palestinian nationalism from first off, not waiting until there's a state and then doing it.
another ISMer
AF bile and tripe
15.01.2009 22:15
The next member of AF I meet is going to suffer the consequences of their 'sitting on the sidelines tut-tutting' communique.
Anarchism in the UK - sold out from above.
ambigram
another way to think about this...
15.01.2009 22:50
now when it comes to palestine, why is there the difficulty applying the same analysis and standards? hence we must reject all nationalism, as the statement is correct to point out.
[1]
JK.
What are you people talking about?
15.01.2009 23:28
a) People think the AF are sitting on the fence
b) Calling for working class unity against both Israeli and Palestinian states is unrealistic
c) That we should support Hamas because they're popular.
d) We should be supporting a two state solution
e) The AF are telling Palestinians what to think and do
f) The AF is full of middle class students
g) The AF all have dogs on strings and drink special brew.
What the fuck are you people on about?
a) Opposing the state and calling for working class unity and struggle against national and the bourgeois is not sitting on the fence.
b) This being achieved may not seem or even be "realistic", but by what qualifier do we understand what is and what is not unrealistic. As anarchist communists we want to destroy the state and capitalism and create an anarchist communist society.
c) By this logic we should support the Labour Party or perhaps the BNP if they ever get that far?
d) As anarchists or people who wish to see the working class liberate themselves, supporting a state solution seems ridiculous. Of course if you want to see the establishment of a stronger and consolidated Palestinian ruling class and the suppression of the workers movement (which is happening now in fact) then support the state.
e) I can't see how putting out a statement is in anyway telling anyone what to think or do. Of course the Palestinians aren't that bothered about what we have to say about anything as at the moment they're having the shit bombed out of them, but putting out an opinion to participate in debate is both justified and desirable.
f) I'm a minimum wager with no degree.
f) I fucking hate dogs.
Confused
ahem
15.01.2009 23:48
except of course the *very first sentence of the statement* unequivocally condemns the israeli "atrocities", so clearly the AF aren't saying this. why people are intent on reading this statement as an accusation that everyone on indymedia supports hamas when it says no such thing i don't know. if you're going to troll, try harder.
collaterley sisters
Whcih side are you on?
16.01.2009 00:56
Please provide one link on IM that supports Hamas - just one. You have stated that shit here often enough without providing supporting evidence so please, just one link to a pro-Hamas report or else fuck off back under your rock to die. Otherwise you are not just a fraud, you are a dangerous fraud.
Why is it that when I look for decent comment on this conflict I find it in the Times and in the House of Commons, but on IM all I find are apologists for the Israeli genocide. Any similarly strident criticism of Israel is hidden presumably for 'racism'. And yet I am not anti-Jewish, and I can prove that claim.
I urge any young activist who is thinking about calling themselves an anarchist to go ahead and act, but to ignore all existing anarchist and activist groups as defunct and infiltrated. Including IM. There are people in 'the movement' who are more right wing than Thatcher ever was.
Let me spell it out. Anarchists oppose power and especially the abuse of power. There is no greater abuse of power than pelting children with white phosphorus. Hamas are nasty morons but today they are illuminated saints compared to the Israelis. Moral ambivalence on this issue is obvious intellectual cowardice.
Which side am I on ? Not Hamas. I am on the side of the victims and I am no longer peaceful in that conviction.
Daniel
Daniel
16.01.2009 07:21
The statement published by the Anarchist Federation in Manchester and Sheffield is not an accusation aimed at IM. As has been said above its aim is at both people who are on Gaza solidarity demo's and those who see them pass by.
You are reading stuff into the statement that is not there. Go back to the top of the page and start again.
Welshboy
We're on the side of the Palestinian working class
16.01.2009 07:56
Still confused
Daniel...
16.01.2009 08:08
"the Israeli state is committing atrocities which must end immediately" (AF statement)
equals...
"apologists for the Israeli genocide" (your description)
...that'd be much appreciated. ta.
JK.
Lie
16.01.2009 16:29
That is a blatant lie. Please list links to posts here supporting Hamas. It is the equivalent of saying that the Warsaw Uprising was equally to blame for the German atrocities there. Or that the Republican government in Spain was equally as bad as Francos fascists.
Daniel
'resistance'
16.01.2009 16:47
Tell me, what areas of the world have you brought a no-state solution to. You have lived and worked in the UK without fear of missile attacks and yet I don't see any AF/SolFed controlled areas. Why aren't you in Gaza if you feel so sure you know what is best for Gazans ? Ewa J refered to Hamas 'resistance fighters' so who the fuck are you to disagree?
You are utter frauds and from an Israeli state perspective you are useful idiots. From an anarchist perspective you are state tools.
Daniel
Daniel's inability to read
16.01.2009 17:34
But you do say that no-one on Indymedia supports Hamas then argue for support for them as a popular resistance group in your next post!
As for not being on Palestine, we've already said that this text comes as a result of dialogues with anarchists who have been active in the area. One of the posts above in support of it is from an ISMer. But why start reading now eh?
But given your threat to "maim" members of No Borders on another thread, presumably for helping distribute the statement, concern for reality clearly isn't very high on your agenda.
AFer
Daniel's logic
16.01.2009 17:46
“That is a blatant lie. Please list links to posts here supporting Hamas. It is the equivalent of saying that the Warsaw Uprising was equally to blame for the German atrocities there. Or that the Republican government in Spain was equally as bad as Francos fascists.”
As an “anarchist” you should be aware that the republican government was instrumental in destroying the revolution. They did it before the fascists won. Theres no need to post links to articles supporting Hamas as your next post does it!
“You also put the word resistance in inverted commas, indicating you do not think Hamas are a resistance movement. Whatever you think of their politics or behaviour, they are are a popular resistance movement to a brutal occupation, and they were democratically elected”
The Israeli government was democratically elected. So were the Nazis. So what?
“So what resistance did you provide ? Did you go on a march? Did you kick a cop or throw a shoe? And that gives you the right to tell the Palestinians that they have no right to a state?
Tell me, what areas of the world have you brought a no-state solution to. You have lived and worked in the UK without fear of missile attacks and yet I don't see any AF/SolFed controlled areas. Why aren't you in Gaza if you feel so sure you know what is best for Gazans ? Ewa J refered to Hamas 'resistance fighters' so who the fuck are you to disagree?”
You are someone claiming to be an “anarchist” and are looking for examples of successful anarchist revolutions? Why don’t you read up on the history of the movement before accusing coherent anarchists of being “frauds”. Do you think that we should take control of areas, murder our rivals, kill trade unionists and suppress workers like Hamas do or something?
Anyway, you aren’t in Gaza either, so who the fuck are you to tell Gazans what to do? Maybe you can go to Gaza and give Hamas a hand helping the Egyptian army stop Gazans from fleeing over the border. Maybe you can help Hamas turn these people round at gunpoint and order that they join a “resistance” that means being obliterated by the IDF. Maybe you could give Hamas and Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade a hand in breaking strikes because they “stoke internal tensions”. If not, who the fuck are you to support them?
One of AF
A strong argument doesn't require lies
16.01.2009 19:10
You are lying like an Israeli spokesperson now.
The fact that I recognise Hamas are a popular resistance movement does not mean I support them. The fact I would prefer to live without a state does not qualify me to lecture palestinians on what they should be aiming for.
"Anyway, you aren’t in Gaza either, so who the fuck are you to tell Gazans what to do?"
I am not, I would not, I am telling you not to either.
"Maybe you can go to Gaza and give Hamas a hand helping the Egyptian army stop Gazans from fleeing over the border. "
Typically ignorant. Egypt and Hamas are not colluding, the Egyptian dictatorship view Hamas as a threat to their own power via their links to the heavily persecuted Muslim Brotherhood.
"If not, who the fuck are you to support them? "
I am not, I am opposing you and your imperialist hypocritcal attitudes. If the Palestinians want a state, and are dying for that right, it is only decent for you to keep your puerile little political fantasies buttoned.
What I am doing, if you are interested, is raising money for the activists who are there and hitting local arms manufacturers. What about you?
Daniel
Supporting Hamas
18.01.2009 13:45
Pro-Hamas protester smashes up "No to IDF, No to Hamas" placard
jhaaglund
Homepage:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2009/01/418996.html?c=on