May be some misconceptions? False expectations?

What "democracy" is all about (all the various forms). Well NOT about "coming up with good, wise, just, fair, etc. etc. decisions". If you think that it is, you are combining your desires for democracy with dubious expectations about "what the people want". When "democracy" is working properly, you get the decisions that "the people" want for good OR FOR ILL. Remember, what's key here isn't your expectations of what "the people" SHOULD want but what they DO want.

Limited "democracy", good or bad. SOME of us favor democracy limited by constitutions inculding a "bill of rights". That is a LIMITATION of "demcoracy" because what a consititution/bill of rights does is say that there are SOME things that can't be done with just the "will of the majority"; SOME decisions that take super majorities and perhaps a lot of time and cumbersome procedures meaning that there is time for cooler heads to prevail.

Look at what you are saying --- WHY are your expectations of "the will of the people" such that you imagine that with referrenda, etc. you would get decisions more to what you think are the correct ones. Please note, I am not making an argument opposed to "democracy", just suggesting that we need better understanding of what democracy is and how it should function and not expect from democracy something that it simply can't deliver, isn't designed to deliver. Alternatives have thier own faults.

contitution & universal rights to work with candidates selected by allotment to help stop corruption as worked for many years in Ancient Athens to stop the rich.
Even better co owner ship-stakeholder-cooperatives on a local to global scale would make it work even better.

Democracy works, a stakeholder global democacy is the only thing that can gaurantee our future& would be great & better than just global rule by trilateral commission
www.trilateral.org
without mistrust which oligarchy & dictatorships breed.
With the technology available global referendums with full info will be easily possible & reinforce consenus & positive action, democracy on a global scale can directly empower local areas+ countries with fair play

Switzerlands part of EU, the EU & african countries are now recalling for UNPA UN parliamentary assembly, personally Ive just signed up for all the Direct democracy campIgns & UNPA signatory

"The moral authority of the UN would be considerably enhanced if the delegates were elected directly by the people" - Albert Einstein, October 1947

 http://en.unpacampaign.org/endorse/index.php


Direct democracy on a local to global scale, why not!!???

contitution & universal rights to work with candidates selected by allotment to help stop corruption as worked for many years in Ancient Athens to stop the rich.
Even better co owner ship-stakeholder-cooperatives on a local to global scale would make it work even better.

Democracy works, a stakeholder global democacy is the only thing that can gaurantee our future& would be great & better than just global rule by trilateral commission
www.trilateral.org
without mistrust which oligarchy & dictatorships breed.
With the technology available global referendums with full info will be easily possible & reinforce consenus & positive action, democracy on a global scale can directly empower local areas+ countries with fair play

Switzerlands part of EU, the EU & african countries are now recalling for UNPA UN parliamentary assembly, personally Ive just signed up for all the Direct democracy campIgns & UNPA signatory

"The moral authority of the UN would be considerably enhanced if the delegates were elected directly by the people" - Albert Einstein, October 1947

 http://en.unpacampaign.org/endorse/index.php


Direct democracy on a local to global scale, why not!!???

MDN, the famous (in their own mind) indymedia idiot, back to troll another news item.

Does anyone pay much attention to their posts?

OK to try to find out what democracy is but let's not discuss for too long as we face some tough challenges. In GB reform of democracy and government has tended to take hundreds of years so maybe we should try to be more efficient.

Your points are all worthy of debate, preferably as accompaniment to a reform movement, not as ballast aimed to stop this getting off the ground.

Having the citizens' initiative can work like an "ideas greenhouse", only the best ideas get onto the public agenda and the really important ones go to decision by the people. Social movements and expert groups can exploit the new opportunities to have their concerns and proposals considered. If negative or repressive proposals are made by citizen groups (and these can come from political parties too) then civil and humanitarian groups can mobilise opposition.

As regards state constitution, in Britain we have no clear idea about what this is. We should not wait to be "given" a constitution before bringing in stronger democracy but could exploit improved democratic conditions in order to start constitutional reform (if "We" wanted to).

Michael

Look, I am all in favor of "more effective democracy"

All I am saying is work for that if what you want is more/better democracy. But don't waste your time if what you want is decisions that are "better" (to your way of thinking) in OTHER ways than just "closer to what the people want".

If all that you want are better or different decisions being made don't waste your time trying to improve the system of democracy unless you have some very good reason to believe that "the people" WILL want those different decisions.

he was recommended in a recent edition of Sons of Anarchy, US top rated tv show about anarcho bikers who occasionally work with the police to stop capitalism & fascism like Zapatistas in Mexico, shame its so violent.

Its a biological study on evolution written 100 or so years ago, it inspired anarchists at the Battleship Potemkin Rebellion which gave Russian servicemen belief that democracy could be won leading to the Russian revolution,which unfortunately was taken over by undemocratic bloody forces paid for with Gold & sealed train by the Kaiser.

"Mutual Aid A Factor of Evolution" continues to inspire internationalists, cooperators& democrats & shows scientifically how mutual sensible cooperation works like to todays Tit for tat evolution, game "theory"
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation

Kropotkin& anarchists needs some cred on this & we need to get organised not fall for provocations that lead to whats happening in Greece where modern democracy started.
Anarchism is about democracy not bombing empty banks, the reaction of some comrades there to hardcore fascist "Golden Dawn"& greek riot polices fascist wings collusion resulting in open murder of 16 yr olds. The banks now pretend to be the victim, banks & governments know billions of people resent the false economy, sympathy is with the Anarchist& internationalist thought from London to Athens& S.africa to Copenhagen.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Aid:_A_Factor_of_Evolution

Biker - it's pointless trying to have a discussion with mdn.

Their posts consist solely of commenting on how pointless everything is, and how we should all accept the way things are.

All wrapped up in a "but I'm all for it really" tone.

One of the worst stooges IM has had for a while.