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Was Boycotting Apartheid South Africa Anti-White?

Scottish PSC | 03.02.2010 12:02 | University Occupations for Gaza | Anti-militarism | Palestine | Repression

The background
Five SPSC members interrupted a concert by the Israeli musicians and sponsored cultural ambassadors of the State of Israel, the Jerusalem Quartet, during their Aug 2008 Edinburgh Festival performance at the Queen’s Hall.

After being removed by private security guards, they were subsequently arrested, detained in Police cells, and later charged with “breach of the peace”.



At a hearing one week before their March 9th trial, the Procurator Fiscal (PF) dropped the charge and indicated she would be levelling new charges that the 5 human rights campaigners were “racially motivated”. At the time, she explained this to the Sheriff by stating that “new evidence had come to light”.,

As it turns out, no “new evidence had come to light”, other than evidence supporting an ever-widening view that Israel is an Apartheid state, and that the campaign of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) was both necessary and ever-more effective. In the months between the concert protest and the trial, Israel had massacred 1400 Palestinians in Gaza, and for once, the media was unable to mask the barbarity of Israel’s crimes.

Perhaps the “new evidence” was the London Declaration on Anti-Semitism (Feb 2010). Gordon Brown was the first “world leader” to sign the document that had been put together by leading Zionists from around the world in order to conflate two distinct issues: anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel.

Just one example of many such conflations: “Education Authorities should… protect students and staff from illegal antisemitic discourse and a hostile environment in whatever form it takes including calls for boycotts”.
It appears that “illegal antisemitic discourse” includes “calls for boycotts”.

The fact that this type of conflation “must… inform policy of national and international organisations and as a basis for training material for use by Criminal Justice Agencies” may start to explain why, for the PF at least, supporting Palestine by boycotting Apartheid Israel became anti-Semitic, while fighting the racism of Apartheid South Africa through boycott was never deemed anti-white.”
It doesn’t really explain why Auschwitz survivor, Hajo Meyer is pictured here at Edinburgh Sheriff Court after the Jan 22nd 2010 hearing with two of the five accused. It does however fit in with the logic of leading Zionists such as Jonathan Hoffman, co-vice-chairman of the Zionist Federation, who described the 86 year-old as a “grotesque, ungainly performing bear in the circus after a Sunday Herald article ”quoted one of the last remaining Auschwitz survivors: “The Israelis tried to dehumanise the Palestinians, just like the Nazis tried to dehumanise me.”

----------------------------

The charge: “Racially Aggravated Conduct”?

It is almost 1 ½ years since the concert and finally, after countless court appearances, the legal debate began on Jan 21st and 22nd 2010. The debate is being held in response to a challenge from the accused that it is against freedom of expression for legitimate criticism of Israel to be considered racist.
The charge is that they “made comments about Jews, Israelis, and the State of Israel… evincing malice and ill will” towards the musicians because of “their membership or presumed membership of an ethnic group”.

This was a lie, and it is difficult to imagine that the PF didn’t know it was a lie.

It had been clear at the time of arrest that their intervention and criticism had been geared toward Israel and that the JQ had been targeted because of their status as sponsored cultural ambassadors of the State of Israel. The Police had interviewed the quartet and audience members and nothing racist had been reported. It is inconceivable that out of 1000 spectators—many of them supportive of Israel—that if anything racist had been said, it wouldn’t have been the main topic of conversation (and rightly so).

Actually, for anyone to have falsely cried “racism” would have been a mistake—the event was recorded in high quality audio by the BBC. Although we had to fight the BBC to hand over the recording, the transcript of this became the basis for the legal debate that took place last week.

The transcript confirmed the lie. The PF had no choice but to strike the word, “Jews” from the charge.

When defence Counsel requested that the term “Israelis” be removed as well, the Sheriff explained that he had no power to change the charge; only the PF could do that. The only reference to “Israelis” is the following: “Daniel Barenboim is an Israeli of conscience; we support all Israelis of conscience”. The PF refused to remove the term: either he genuinely considers the statement racist, or he genuinely fears the consequences - i.e. the political nature of the charge would be overtly exposed: racism = making "comments about Jews, Israelis, and the State of Israel"

Over the course of the 5 interruptions, the transcript attributes the following to the protestors, and later, the JQ spokesperson (repetitions and irrelevant material removed):

Protestors
“They’re Israeli Army musicians; Genocide in Gaza; End the Siege of Gaza.
Boycott Israel; These musicians are representatives of the state of Israel.
Daniel Barenboim refused to take part in Israel 60 celebrations; The Jerusalem Quartet celebrates ethnic cleansing; They’re sponsored by the state of Israel; Daniel Barenboim is an Israeli of conscience; we support all Israelis of conscience, but not if they celebrate ethnic cleansing.
They’re killing people in Gaza; And you with your silence are killing people as well?; Israel is killing people, killing Palestinians every day; We should stand for human rights; we shouldn’t be silent.
I’m ashamed of myself for supporting this; The music is beautiful but if what these people said is true, we should be ashamed of ourselves for supporting this.”

JQ spokeperson:
Let me tell you a few things about the quartet because as I can see on behalf of the quartet there is a big misunderstanding about who we are, and who we represent, and what our reason to come here and play in the Edinburgh Festival.
Em, you know the name, Jerusalem Quartet, it’s funny that now it’s a big fuss about the name, but we started 15 years ago [1993?], when there were peace in Israel, among Arabs, among Israel; it was just before the first Intifada [1987?], it was the beginning of the first Intifada, but that’s politics, I don’t want to talk about, sorry…
We all know that in Israel, there are good things of course, and there are bad things, politics and other things that are not connected to music.
But let me tell you that we are here to bring you the good things from Israel;
We are not here to bring the bad things.
You know, politics it’s not our field; we are here under the name of the Jerusalem Quartet to bring music; to show you that there is art in Israel, and we are, of course we have an army to defend ourself, and nothing is perfect in life, but at least we have music.
----------

As can be seen from his speech, and as pointed out by the defence team, the JQ spokesperson, however irritated, understood that the protest was political—not racist.

It is also clear that he understood his role as a cultural ambassador of the State of Israel, and was “aware that the purpose of ordering services from him is to promote the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art, including contributing to creating a positive image for Israel”, as per his contract. See Yitzhak Laor, “Putting out a contract on art” published in Haaretz, July 31 2008.

The defence made reference to a range of European Court rulings that had overturned lower court decisions that had interfered with political freedom of expression:
“Where interference is not necessary in a democratic society, it must be deemed disproportionate.”
“Democracy requires freedom of political expression”.

Expanding on this, other arguments included:
“Seeking this prosecution invites the Lord Advocate to prevent criticism of another country.”
“In defining their action as racially aggravated, the Crown criminalise legitimate views and opinions.”
If the prosecution were to succeed, “such comments would become criminal even when made at a street protest.”

It was argued that the law in question was designed to deal with racist behaviour; not legitimate political protest.
It was made clear that it was ridiculous that anyone should be labelled a “racist” for the mild non-violent anti-racist political protest that took place. Interestingly, the Sheriff responded by saying, “I don’t think anyone is suggesting that your client is a racist; the Crown simply alleges a breach of Section 50…”

The courtroom was packed on both days, and the defence arguments were comprehensive and solid. The debate was scheduled to last two days, but after the defence case had been made, there was little time left to hear the Crown’s case; the Sheriff also accepted that the PF might want time to research the defence arguments presented.

The case will call again at 9.30am on Monday 29th March when the PF has the unenviable job of explaining why criticising Israel is racist. He indicated that one hour should be enough.

The sheriff’s judgement will be made on Thursday April 8th at 9.30am.

Was it racist to boycott Apartheid South Africa in the last century? We'll find out.

------------------------
Scottish PSC is committed to full human rights for all; we oppose a Jewish supremacist State in Israel/Palestine as others opposed a White supremacist state in South Africa or Alabama. In those cases, anti-racist campaigners did not have to put up with absurd allegations that they were racist. SPSC had to take legal action against the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities (SCOJEC; whose leadership are staunch supporters of the state of Israel) after they published allegations that SPSC 'demonised Jews' by pointing out Israel's murderous crimes.

SPSC is an anti-racist campaign; SCOJEC had to pulp 6,000 copies of their book.

Scottish PSC

Comments

Hide the following 21 comments

Depends

03.02.2010 13:17

Wouldn't have been "anti-white" per se and of course depends on what definition you are using for "boycott" -- by ours over here where that means PRIMARY boycotts only not in any case. But by your tradition of what "boycott" means..........

Not including all "whites" but for just a moment pretend that the situation back in the days of the boycott against South Afrika was different. Pretend that there was a significant Afrikaner diaspora and that these people would refuse to honor your boycott. By your tradition, secondary and tertiary targets are legitimate, so you would have acted to attack them.

And that IS the situation with regard to Israel, isn't it?

Which is why this is a yes or no matter. If you limited actions to a PRIMARY boycott (picket signs "if you go into this store don't buy the Israeli products") you can keep the campaign from becoming anti "Zionist". But if actions are SECONDARY boycott "don't patronize this store because they refuse to join the boycott" will rapidly become anti Jew.

The counter argument of course would be "we're not attacking them because they are Jews but because they refuse to break solidarity with their tribe". But of course it is in the very nature of tribes that have survived thousands of years that they must have great solidarity.

MDN


thanks

03.02.2010 14:11

The SPSC is rather missing the nature of the charge against them, or else is choosing to misrepresent them.

Even if it is found that their actions were not anti-Semitic in intent, that is not enough to exonerate them. As long as it's established that the reason they tried to disrupt a string quartet concert (!) was solely that the performers were from a specific nation, as it plainly was in this case, they have violated the law. If they had protested a quartet from the Czech Republic simply because they were from the Czech Republic - even if the musicians were all former soldiers in the Czech army and the tour sponsored by the Czech army - they would be equally on the wrong side of the law.

Press coverage at the time showed that the SPSC was roundly condemned for their stunt, especially by the quite unimpressed concert goers, and that is as much a reason as any for why - you'll note - the stunt hasn't been repeated since, its foolishness being so obvious from the moment it was done.

a closer look


Ridiculous charges, concert goers might have been better influenced with jokes

03.02.2010 19:29

or a banner at the end, maybe. Its farcical that theyve been charged with antisemitism, anyone who questions Israel seems to be getting this charge.
The really does look like a Ass

James


@a closer look

04.02.2010 11:28

I think you are misrepresenting the charges.

"As long as it's established that the reason they tried to disrupt a string quartet concert (!) was solely that the performers were from a specific nation, as it plainly was in this case, they have violated the law"

It's plain from the article that they weren't targeted just because they were from Israel, but rather because they were representatives of the State of Israel. Big and crucial difference.

Is there some mailing list that sends out to pro-Israel activists whenever there is an article on Indymedia criticizing Israel? I know there was an article a while back that Israel do pay astroturfers:
 http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/07/14/that-angry-commenter-on-your-blog-may-actually-be-working-for-the-israeli-government/

anon


Re: thanks

04.02.2010 11:30

"Even if it is found that their actions were not anti-Semitic in intent, that is not enough to exonerate them. As long as it's established that the reason they tried to disrupt a string quartet concert (!) was solely that the performers were from a specific nation, as it plainly was in this case, they have violated the law. If they had protested a quartet from the Czech Republic simply because they were from the Czech Republic - even if the musicians were all former soldiers in the Czech army and the tour sponsored by the Czech army - they would be equally on the wrong side of the law. "

Oh, you must have missed this:-

"It had been clear at the time of arrest that their intervention and criticism had been geared toward Israel and that the JQ had been targeted because of their status as sponsored cultural ambassadors of the State of Israel. "

and

"It is also clear that he understood his role as a cultural ambassador of the State of Israel, and was “aware that the purpose of ordering services from him is to promote the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art, including contributing to creating a positive image for Israel”, as per his contract. See Yitzhak Laor, “Putting out a contract on art” published in Haaretz, July 31 2008. "

As you are aware the state of Israel is based on ethnic cleansing, and the state of Israel could not exist in it's current state without having committed a long standing campaign of ethnic cleansing. There is nothing racist (or illegal) with protesting against an organisation which has committed ethnic cleansing, or the cohorts it employees for propaganda and public relations purposes.

A


Re: Depends

04.02.2010 12:43

You said:-

"If you limited actions to a PRIMARY boycott (picket signs "if you go into this store don't buy the Israeli products") you can keep the campaign from becoming anti "Zionist". But if actions are SECONDARY boycott "don't patronize this store because they refuse to join the boycott" will rapidly become anti Jew."

Your argument would only stand up to scrutiny if being a zionist and being a Jew were the same thing. This is not the case as many Jews are involved in Palestinian solidarity campaigns, and an increasing number are becoming less fearful of speaking out against zionism within their communities. Jews who did this used to be labelled 'self hating jews' by zionists but this veil has been worn thin now. You need to remember that zionism is a political project and is completely separate from Jewish culture and Judaism.

I also notice you have cleverly used the word "attack" to describe the actions of people are peacefully protesting against those involved in papering over ethnic cleansing, and you define any Jew who does not support zionism as 'breaking solidarity with their tribe'. Interesting.

A


@anon and A

04.02.2010 13:52

"Is there some mailing list that sends out to pro-Israel activists whenever there is an article on Indymedia criticizing Israel?"

It may come as a shock to you, but there are many, many people out there who disagree with your over-simplified and sloganeering views on Israel, and they don't need to organized by some centralized secret mechanism to say so. The 'some mailing list' bit is nothing more than a ready excuse for failing to see that your views are considerably less universally held than you would like to think.

What no one disputes is just how badly the SPSC disruption of a performance of a string quartet was taken at the actual event. The audience, you'll recall, was clapping and chanting 'out! out! out!' - not to the quartet but to the SPSC 'activists' who took it upon themselves to waste an entire auditorium's time on what most attendees viewed as self-aggrandizing irrelevance.

SPSC made the Palestinian cause quite a few more enemies than friends that day.

a closer look


Zionist lies

04.02.2010 14:31

"SPSC made the Palestinian cause quite a few more enemies than friends that day."

Absolutely zero evidence that this is true.

Why not take "a closer look" at the mission statement of this site and take your revolting views to other small minded racists?

musical chairs


"out out" shouted the audience

04.02.2010 14:37

From  http://www.edinburghguide.com/festival/2008/edinburghinternationalfestival/jerusalemquartet

"When the quartet started their next piece - Smetana's String Quartet No 1 in E minor "From my Life" - they and the audience appeared to have finally relaxed into the concert. But this mood was short-lived when a female protestor on the other side of the balcony stood up and shouted protests against the Israeli army. This proved too much for many in the audience. A swell of "boos" erupted around the auditorium accompanied by regular clapping as they shouted "out," "out" to the woman. The musicians of course had already left the stage but one returned. Standing in front of the audience he explained they were there to make music, not get involved in politics and he asked that they be given the peace to continue. The audience responded enthusiastically, and with great whoops and cheers the quartet came back on and resumed the movement."

If the goal was to make supporters of Palestinian rights look like hooligans, this was a grand success and you convinced many.

a closer look


When people are dying music is not separate from politics

04.02.2010 14:44

Most of these responses are ridiculous, of course these is nothing anti-semitic in boycotting Israel and taking direct action against Israeli cultural and sports events. The activists deserve our support for their bravery, well done. As for the audience, hopefully now with hind sight they will no longer support israeli projects, if they do shame on them. When people are dying music is not separate from politics. Yes the zionists are busy rewriting the definition of anti-Semitism - just look at the new EU definition for example. This places legal obstacles in our way which must be challenged at each step. In the long run this re-writing sadly plays in to the hands of the nazis as it turns 'anti-Semitism' in to something other than vile.

just me


'The effect was totally counterproductive'

04.02.2010 14:51

Here is an additional report corroborating that, no, it's not a 'zionist lie' that the audience booed and jeered the SPSC protesters and gave the Jerusalem Quartet a standing ovation.

 http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/AntiIsrael-protest-is-countered-by.4442409.jp

But the audience yesterday rallied to the musicians – two of whom are members of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, established to promote harmony between Israeli and Arab musicians and cultures. Some tried to silence the protesters or drown them out with clapping.

Hugh Kerr, formerly the MEP overseeing the European Parliament's music policy, was at the concert. He said: "I am a long-time supporter of Palestinian rights, as I suspect were many in the Queen's Hall this morning. However, the effect was totally counterproductive."

The Scotsman's music critic, Susan Nickalls, called it "absolutely disgraceful … Even if one might have sympathy with the Palestinian cause, this was not the platform. The audience had come to hear an uncontroversial programme of Brahms, Smetana and Haydn, not the views of political activists."

a closer look


lickspittle zionist strawman

04.02.2010 15:04

To the claim made by "a closet spook" that:

"SPSC made the Palestinian cause quite a few more enemies than friends that day."

I replied

Absolutely zero evidence that this is true.

Now a closet spook comes back with:

"Here is an additional report corroborating that, no, it's not a 'zionist lie' that the audience booed and jeered the SPSC protesters and gave the Jerusalem Quartet a standing ovation."

Absolutely no evidence that the Palestinian cause made "more enemies" - (a phrase which outs the author).

Of course one could expect a Zionist-regime flagship concert to be packed with Zionists and liberals who think that beautiful notes from repulsive regimes are not a political issue.

But the idea that people at the concert began to hate the Palestinians for being oppressed by a brutal regime is not proven and not very likely.

musical chairs


a failed tactic

04.02.2010 15:21

Ah, now comes the invective.

Unable to counter the now twice-corroborated fact that the audience booed the SPSC and gave the Jerusalem Quartet, in the words of the festival director, 'a rare but very well-deserved standing ovation,' thereby leading anyone with any sense at all to conclude along with Hugh Kerr that the protest was 'totally counterproductive' - there's nothing left to do but fling invective.

What SPSC did was unwittingly undergird the Zionist narrative of Israel as a persecuted state, unable to enjoy even a simple concert in Edinburgh in peace and quiet without having to suffer attempts by organized zealots trying to bust things up. The audience was quite clearly having none of what the SPSC was selling.

As I've said earlier in the thread, the real indication that this sort of thing was an absolute own goal is not in the quite embarrassing charges the five 'activists' face but in the fact that in the following year and a half not one group has considered the Edinburgh debacle - actively attempting to bust up a live performance - a tactic worth imitating. Quite simply, it is recognized even among activists as a failed tactic, and the SPSC has earned the embarrassment.

a closer look


I should add

04.02.2010 16:04

'But the idea that people at the concert began to hate the Palestinians for being oppressed by a brutal regime is not proven and not very likely.'

I should add that it's no small irony to encounter this straw man in a post attacking me for alleged straw men.

I did not say that the SPSC's boorishness made enemies for the Palestinian people. I said they made enemies for the Palestinian cause - i.e., not the Palestinians, but the 'activist infrastructure' who take it upon themselves to act on the Palestinians behalf, even if in such self-evidently counterproductive ways. I would assume that most members of the Edinburgh audience are of course able to make that distinction as well, and not hold the Palestinian people per se to account over the foolishness of the SPSC tactic; the comment from Hugh Kerr for example is I believe careful to spell out that distinction between Palestinian rights and the SPSC's 'totally counterproductive' action.

And some indication of why the tactic failed so badly can be seen the smug attitude of 'musical chairs' who, because the audience was not persuaded by the SPSC action, derides the audience as 'zionists and liberals.' They were unpersuaded? To blazes with them then, they were probably a bunch of zionists anyway. I believe Aesop's fox had some words on the matter.

Surely no one will argue that absolutely nothing the Palestinian solidarity movement has ever done has ever in any form turned out in the fullness of time to be a mistake. Direct action does not, it transpires, always get the goods. If you failed to persuade anyone of anything but the SPSC's capacity for boorishness and the Jerusalem Quartet's scrappy tenacity in the face of it then, paraphrasing Cromwell, I beseech you, think it possible that the tactic was mistaken.

a closer look


Comment

05.02.2010 12:16

I have been impressed with a closer look's formidable debating skills even if they support the state of Israel, or maybe 'musical chairs' has done a piss poor job at defending the actions of SPSC.

The key issue of the article is whether SPSC were 'racist' for disrupting the concert. I reiterate the quotes I stated earlier:-

"It had been clear at the time of arrest that their intervention and criticism had been geared toward Israel and that the JQ had been targeted because of their status as sponsored cultural ambassadors of the State of Israel. "

and

"It is also clear that he understood his role as a cultural ambassador of the State of Israel, and was “aware that the purpose of ordering services from him is to promote the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art, including contributing to creating a positive image for Israel”, as per his contract. See Yitzhak Laor, “Putting out a contract on art” published in Haaretz, July 31 2008. "

So SPSC were not targeting the String Quartet because they were of Israeli origin (which would be xenophobic which legally equates to racism), but because they are "promoting the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art... contributing to creating a positive image for Israel as per his contract" (which is simply opposition of state propaganda).

The state of Israel clearly understands the importance of maintaining good international public relations despite the fact that the foundation of the state of Israel lies on the ethnic cleansing or Arabs. Having people associate Israel with arts, culture, football, and tourism is a convenient diversion from people hearing of human rights abuses and stolen land.

Unfortunately SPSC do not seem to understand the importance of 'good public relations' as well as the Israeli state or 'a closer look' does. I think James has got it right by stating "concert goers might have been better influenced with jokes". A better tactic might have been to hand out well designed 'programmes' to concert goers at the entrance which used black humour to portray the event as simply a mask for the blockade and enforced poverty of the people living in Gaza. The audience would have enjoyed the music nonetheless but would have recognised the cynicism behind it and thought twice about future Israeli cultural events.

A


in other words

05.02.2010 13:51

Even supporters of the SPSC recognize that the best possible outcome of the action and legal wrangle is the chance that in the end the best that can be said about it was that it was not illegal. Will the SPSC write a follow on article announcing 'the action was not anti-Semitic, just totally counterproductive' and thereby claim victory? They already seem to have written the exceptionally negative audience reaction, and the fact that they caused the Jerusalem Quartet to be hailed with 'great whoops and cheers' as they returned to the stage, out of their version of history.

a closer look


Re: in other words

05.02.2010 16:01

Thank you for your concern 'a closer look', perhaps you could enlighten us mere mortals on how to successfully run a public relations campaign.

There have been numerous direct actions against the Israeli state's attempts to sway public opinion abroad which have been mightily successful. Tzipi Livni and other international war criminals have had to cancel their visits to the UK and other countries for fear of arrest under universal jurisdiction. Zionist conferences have also been successfully targeted:-

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/12/443503.html

It is important that the Israeli state and it's apologists know that they will not be able to organise propaganda events without receiving bad publicity. Clearly there are lessons to be learnt from the SPSC action but they successfully achieved publicity for the Palestinian cause in the wider media, whilst drawing attention to the cynical Israeli state attempt at public relations, regardless of how the audience felt at having their cosy evening disrupted.

As the patrons sat listening to esteemed classical music, over 1.5 million people were suffering a lack of food and medicine living in a brutal militarised apartheid regime, and 313 children and 1106 adults would not know they had 4 months left to live. As the pictures of those atrocities were beamed to our television screens 1 year ago, those patrons would have felt a deep sense of unease that the same state behind those beautiful notes were also behind the horrors right in front of their eyes.

A


publicity?

05.02.2010 16:46

'clearly there are lessons to be learnt from the SPSC action but they successfully achieved publicity for the Palestinian cause in the wider media, whilst drawing attention to the cynical Israeli state attempt at public relations, regardless of how the audience felt at having their cosy evening disrupted.'

I think the chief lesson was already learnt, which is that such an action does nothing but make heroes of the Israelis and goats of the protesters, with some additional eau d'goat wafting toward those who are now trying to repair the self-inflicted damage. Which is why the stunt hasn't been repeated. For every audience member boo-ing the SPSC, how many read in their papers of a noble attempt by a gang of five stalwart souls to personally bust up that worst conceivable menace to public health and well-being, a Brahms work for string quartet? I'm no PR maestro, but didn't anyone in the SPSC see how immediately and how completely their action would fail? It was an exercise in self-aggrandising gormlessness of the first order, and the SPSC has notably been in damage control mode since.

And again, claiming that they got publicity by the tonne (which, all in all, they did not) and therefore the action was a success - well, again, success in what sense? Firming up a reputation as the sort of overzealous activist true-believers who consider their personal political beliefs to be of such overweening and galactic import that they have been endowed and privileged with some mystic right to bust up whatever concert they choose in order to hold an impromptu political rally educating the unlearned masses? And if the audience believed they were there for some other reason - such as perhaps the afore-mentioned Brahms - well they're just bourgeois sheep who deserved the rude awakening they got from their self-appointed betters?

Anyone with his head on straight would be quite delighted to have no more of such publicity.

a closer look


pro-Israeli astroturfers

05.02.2010 18:28

@a closer look: "It may come as a shock to you, but there are many, many people out there who disagree with your over-simplified and sloganeering views on Israel, and they don't need to organized by some centralized secret mechanism to say so."

I'm sure there are, but the point is they aren't the kind of people who would generally be reading Indymedia. Isn't it a bit of a coincidence that several pro-Israel and anti-Palestine people happen to be reading this and other stories and comment on them so quickly?

Seeing as the Israeli state admitted openly that they pay people to astroturf on blogs and sites like this, it raises a big suspicion over all comments like these. A bit of a PR goof there, they should have kept it more hush hush.

It seems now the pro-Israel commentators have realised their main argument that the protesters were racist is obviously completely bogus, so they have shifted to a new tack of arguing that the demonstration was "counterproductive" or "ineffective". Well, if it was so ineffective, how come you are all on here making such a big fuss of it? I think the response to an action is a good indication of how well it went: If it is ignored, not very well. If if stirs up a lot of fuss and criminal charges, you must be doing something right.

anon


Know your enemies

10.02.2010 22:06

"Seeing as the Israeli state admitted openly that they pay people to astroturf on blogs and sites like this, it raises a big suspicion over all comments like these"

RIDICULOUS --- When engaged in a conflict it helps if you make realistic assumptions of the other side and the motivations of the people on it (else liable to make gross misjudgements). You really believe that the people commenting on the pro "Zionist" side have to be PAID to support their tribe?

INSULTING -- and bordering on antisemitic (the insinuation that "Zionists" wouldn't support their own side unless paid to do so). I mean WHY would you believe that of them?

MDN


@ MDN

11.02.2010 17:19

"You really believe that the people commenting on the pro "Zionist" side have to be PAID to support their tribe?"

Well apparently the Israeli Ministry Of Foreign Affairs has a different viewpoint to you:

 http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520: The Foreign Ministry presents: talkbackers in the service of the State

And there are other organised groups doing the same thing:

 http://www.thejidf.org/:The Jewish Internet Defense Force (JIDF)
 http://bit.ly/b82CXy:Israel Internet PR Cyber Warriors

Of course, you as an American posting prolifically about Israel on a UK board weren't aware of any of this and suspect that its 'Bordering on anti-semitism?'

They're not doing it cos they're Jewish, they're doing it because they're adherents to a failing political ideology - ie zionism.

PS In the same way you aren't taken seriously here, they aren't either.

viva falestina


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