This is not a Riot: Police and the UAF at Bolton

Clueless and dangerous

21.03.2010 12:07

will all the will in the world, why don't the UAF do that. the BNP is there on your doorstep, canvassing in your area, getting votes at every election.

If you going to "alert British society to the rising threat of the BNP" get on with the fucking job.Edl are nothing to do with electoralism of the far right. Meanwhile down the street the bnp carry on unmolested.

Clueless and dangerous, the uaf are a greater threat to anti-fascism than the edl will ever be.

afa

Excellent

21.03.2010 16:09

Great film, thank you.

Bonzo

stand strong stand proud

21.03.2010 16:51

What are you saying afa? That we should just let the EDL march unoppossed because they aren't standing in elections?

The cops, the media, councils, and the state can not be relied on to opposse fascists. We need to mobilise everytime they rear their heads. Forget the sectarianism. I have many issues with UAF too. But when it comes down to a fascist street army marching through our town we must stand strong, and stand together we all who are there on the street. Because of the turnout yesterday we managed to prevent another EDL rampage like we saw in Stoke.

bolton wanderer

Clueless dangerous blind and stupid.

21.03.2010 17:49

the fascists you speak of (the BNP) were out knocking door to door, putting pre-election leaflets through peoples letterboxes at the weekend while you were fucking about in bolton being 'anti-fascist'. And they will continue to do so as part of their elelction campaign strategy.

The fascists you speak of (the BNP) have for the past 12 years avoided confrontation, street politics and far-right rabble rousing. And will continue to avoid 'street politics'

The facsists you speak of (the BNP) have be steadily gaining votes, growing in support, membership and credibility throughout the country. Mainly from disillusioned working class ex-labour voters.

What the edl have got to do with fascism (political fascism, not student insult fascism) only exists in the infantile minds of the uaf leadership who are happy and willing to encourgae students and young muslim lads to take a battering on their behalf in the name of 'anti-fascism'.

Uaf is the state. New labour, government lackeys. Jesus, even when it is right in front of you, you can't see it.

AFA

yes fight the bnp... but don't ignore the edl.

21.03.2010 18:46

This is a good article, which articulates what I feel about the situation, and explains the "fascism" tag for the edl is valid..

http://libcom.org/news/edl-stoke-23012010

I agree we need to organise against the BNP, but it's not a question of one or the other. The EDl must be oppossed for the reasons given in the link. The alternative is to allow them control of our streets, and to allow them to attack with violence our communities. Just like they did in Stoke.

What were you doing to opposse the BNP electorally in Bolton? That requires hard work and building community campaigns which put forward libertarian alternatives. Mobilising against fascist street armies like the edl is part of that struggle.

bolton wanderer

Stupidity Disguised as 'Anti-Fascism'

21.03.2010 18:59

Stop running around after the EDL idiots, it's the BNP who should be priority.

It appears that BNP's success is making the UAF run around chasing it's arse because it has run out of ideas.

John Clarke

Reet,me&6others were charged@by60+BNPsupporters in Kirkby ashfield about 6 yrs

21.03.2010 19:07

ago outside the festival hall on a council election night. The BNP supporters were called in by BNP sexurity in the hall to get there from nearby & the Brinsley BNP area which is now defunct, but then controlled by ex BNP councillorSadie Graham. They were armed with baseball bats etc, hardly an avoidance of street confrontation.

We need to confront them both in a well disciplined way & not attack unless they attack us, the EDL are Knights of the Holy Pisshead Pubcrawl,
the BNP are nazis who need serious professional therapy.

My family fought their way out of Germany & eastern europe in the 1930's, I went after the NF& BNP in the 1990s& I believed fighting the BNP on the streets was the only way.Times have changed now many antifash disagree with BNP doing the political thing, whilst their doing that if we attack physically them their likely to capitalise.

We all know the EDL & BNP are the real thugs & bullies so let them attack us & lets defend ourselves really well, in a disciplined way & let the police arrest them not us.
Charging in ourselves in a unorganised way,gets alot of our side arrested for not good reason.Screaming vague chants , chanting whose streets or our streets dont go down well with many people either.
We have to v smart& use smart&cunning NVDA tactics if they attack us defend ourselves with controlled force.

Seems more ex AFA are interested in coming, back, they are older & wiser now, they arent thugs, if we act lik thugs we will put off the public& our key supporters as well give the BNP & some in the corporate media what they want.

Intergalactic Brigade

it's not one OR the other...

21.03.2010 19:12

I'm confused why afa and John Clarke above think we should ignore the EDL, and concentrate on the BNP. Both organisations need a thoughtful and effective response.

If you ignore the EDL they will go on the rampage through our towns and cities. I'm sorry but I'm not prepared to let that happen where I live.

bolton wanderer

Bolton Wanderer

21.03.2010 19:29

I expect it's pretty unlikely they'll go anywhere near where you live.

John Clarke

in my town

21.03.2010 20:22

Well they were there yesterday, mate. I'm sorry but I'm not going to let them rampage unoppossed where I live. I'd hope you'd do the same where you live, and I also hope you'd welcome any solidarity from trade unionists, and others from outside too. Do you think we should just ignore the EDL? It's a valid position - but a dangerous one in my opinion.

bolton wanderer

EDL = BNP (but ignored the bnp) even this close to a general election

21.03.2010 21:51

i'm not asking for the edl to be ignored. I'm happy for muslim youth to confront the edl in defence of their religion - as they did in harrow.

But confronting the edl is NOT anti-fascism no matter how much the uaf leadership (and their string pullers) demand it is.

And while lefties get all distracted by the edl (who are designated fascist BECAUSE of their relationship to the bnp) the bnp continue their election campaign, ignored by all.

It's absolutely fucking surreal.

AFA

Opposing the EDL and the BNP

21.03.2010 22:03

"I expect it's pretty unlikely they'll go anywhere near where you live"! Congratulations John Clarke for jumping to conclusions about people who argue against your views a/ without any evidence, b/ because you can't think of anything better to say? We're supposed to campaigning AGAINST people who jump to conclusions about others - it's called prejudice, remember? In the 2009 Euro elections the BNP leafletted every single house in the UK, so there's no area BNP leaflets did not reach; however of course there are still BNP target areas and you're right there is a danger that UAF's focus on the EDL may distract attention away from the bigger priority, but you might have noticed Anti-Fascism is not confined to the UAF.

Either way, when the EDL started out I was unsure how to react. Very soon afterwards the EDL came to my exact area. The EDL brought known BNP activists with them. They were literally sent packing by local residents. A few days later BNP teams leafletted the exact streets where I and (though I'm white) my elderly Asian in-laws live (again the BNP got a rough ride from local residents to put it mildly). If that's STILL not proof enough for you, EDL co-founder Paul Ray has now admitted BNP activist Chris Renton is "de-facto Commander of the EDL". Next....

Not John Clarke

AFA / John Clarke

22.03.2010 00:21

With all due respect there seems to be a danger that AFA / John Clarke might have actually believed what the media implied about the EDL being opposed in Harrow by "Muslim youth". Yes of course there were alot of Muslims at the Harrow counter-protest/s, although many of them not were not "youth", but ALL the non-white counter-protestors seem to have been characterised by the media as "Muslim", while it was the white counter-protestors the media implied were "Anti-Fascist" (based of course on an assumption about what the media think these groups ought visually to look like). As an obvious journalistic convenience, on face value that might seem to have at least some generalised validity, but in fact the suggestion that the "youth" who opposed Fascism in Harrow were (in John's opinion) "not" Anti-Fascist is every bit as bollocks as that logical contradiction implies.

The MANY people we SPOKE to before, during and after the Harrow protest confirmed that white and non-white Anti-Fascists are as diverse in their politics as they are in their religion (or lack of it) and ethnicity. At that time it was already common-knowledge that the EDL is littered with BNP supporters, so their opponents included Jewish and Hindu Tory councillors, virtually every Rabbi in North West London, Sikh leftists, white Muslims, Turkish socialists, Labour, Green Party and Trades Union activists (of various ethnicities), a small contingent of conspicuous Antifa (NAME REMOVED and a few pals), veterans of predominantly Asian left / anti-racist groups like Southall Black Sisters, Women Against Fundamentalism, the Indian Workers Association and Southall Monitoring Group, a couple of local SHARPs (by which I mean local lads who actually go out wearing SHARP patches), all the usual left-wing micro-species, Afro-Caribbean hoodies who made no secret they'd come to physically attack the BNP, to Somali school-kids and local interfaith people from every conceivable brand of fluffy liberalism. The vast majority of this lot were most definitely and categorically Anti-Fascist (irrespective of what the UAF leadership might or might not say).

Unfortunately there were some right-wing Muslims opposing the EDL and SIOE too, but in fact the Islamo-Fascist group Hizb-ut Tahrir told their supporters to stay AWAY from the Harrow counter-protests, Harrow Mosque welcomes significant Barelvi (anti-Taliban), Ismaili and Sufi (pacifist) congregations, and the Harrow-based Muslim Times wrote an article which condemned Hizb-ut Tahrir and similar groups as religious cults, comparing them to terrorists like The Minutemen and the IRA.

Not John Clarke

Not neo-Nazis My Fookin' Arse!!!!!!

22.03.2010 00:44

The EDL's "LTE" - Love Combat 18, the NF and the BNP.

AFA/John Clarke (not to be confused with the great John Cooper Clarke), is/are the usual ramblings of supertroll, the Goebels of the EDL Trevor KKKelway.

Those EDL thugs who violently attacked anti-racist campaigners on the edge of town on late Saturday afternoon were members of the British Freedom Fighters, whom Wigan Mike and Liam Pinkham recently revealed the EDL go as far as ringing them both up and asking them to attend EDL rallies.

There are most definately hardcore neo-Nazis attending EDL rallies.

Fuck off back to Stornfront, fash-loving troll scum.

You will not divide and conquer, giving the EDL fascists a free reign to go on a Krystallnacht like riot as they did in Stoke, led by Jeff (The Fuckin' Nazi) Marsh.

If that was not nazi activity, what the fuck is???????

Jiff Lemon

@ Not John Clarke

22.03.2010 10:37

i was at harrow - one of mr wright's pals. It was almost exclusively young muslim men who made it very clear they (and by default us) were there to defend the mosque.

As a form of self defence fair play - they felt their religion was being threatened, they pulled out a couple of thousand people to make sure it wasn't.

EDL is a single issue campaign, made up mainly of ex-army and football hoolies - and a lot of wannabes, of course it will attract elements of the far right, not only because of the message it is sending out, but because it gives an opportunity for individuals from the far right (not the bnp who are busy canvassing in their local community about immigration) to feel and be part of a genuine street based movement.

The far right in the edl are kept in check (see C18 getting a pasting from the edl in london) and are almost certainly using it as means of building thier own confidence and maybe recruit a few mugs.

It was uaf who drew the dividing line and are now paying the price.

AFA

@ AFA

22.03.2010 11:37

So what do you suggest for Dudley / Bradford? If we ignore them, they (or a section of hangers on) will go on a rampage.

giuseppe pinelli

How it should have gone

22.03.2010 12:56

okay this is how it should have gone (and i know hindsight's a wonderful thing).

1. we take edl at their word that they are not a racist/facsist organisation
2. we accept they are not a racist/fascist organisation and would will not be confronted because of it
3. we will confront on the day the far right/fascists/racists/nazis, whether they are involved in the edl or not.
4. we will confront anybody attacking us, "asian shopkeepers", etc (this is called self-defence)
5. our issue is not with the edl, our issue is with the facsists/racists/nazis
6. our job is to tackle fascists/racists/nazis
7. we make a tacit agreement with the edl on that score. This isolates the fascists within the edl ranks
8. we also recognise that if edl come out (ie they say they are) as been a racist organisation they will be confronted as such.

The 'we' in this scenario are militant anti-facists NOT the uaf, student wankers. lefty politicos or keyboard warriors.

This should have happened at Birmingham when there was less than 50 on the demo and they were bending over backwards for recognition/approval/acceptance that they were not a racist organisation.

Bradford's too late. mate. Manchester was too late. Uaf fucked it for all genuine anti-fascists and there's no way we can claw any ground back.

AFA

@ giuseppe pinelli

22.03.2010 13:11

okay mate here's how you play Bradford.

You get a crew of about fifty, minimum. You put a statement out beforehand that you are militant anti-facsists, you are not intereted in the edl, they can have they demo, go about their business, you're looking for fascists. You say: Anybody we identity as fascists they will be confronted (regardless of whether they are with the edl or not). You say: any racists attacks will be dealt with. You say: we take the edl at their word that they are not a violent facsist/racist organisation and won't be confronted on that score. You say: we will act in self-defence if attacked.

You hit identifiable facsists, and you hit them hard. You leave the edl demo alone.

Of course all fifty would have to be up for it, and you will have to have decent politics and bollocks to pull it off.

AFA

there not nazis

22.03.2010 13:56

i attended the protests on saturday im not a supporter of either group and i went first into the uaf and later once there numbers had swelled into the edl and the feeling i got is that they are not in any way a nazi group and although the majority seemed to be casuals or ex casuals there was a wide cross section of ages and more than a handful of non white members and id say about 10 percent women i feel the uaf have compounded the problem by counter protesting lots of the rank and file of the edl turn up to support there friends because the uaf/swp have been telling anyone that listens there going to smash them off the streets(good luck with that there would only ever be one winner if the police werent there) .all the uaf have done is change the edl from a bunch of football hooligans looking tor a fight into a much more diverse group attracting people from large sections of society lets be honest if the uaf werent there the demo would have been news in bolton but wouldnt have got a mention anywhere else i wonder how many new recruits have joined thanks to the publicity generated by the uaf the constant shouts of nazi scum just caused the edl members to laugh and hoist shoulder high non white members they see themselves as patriots not racists and it seems more and more of the public are starting to agree with them it would be naive to think they dont attract some racists but i first hand witnessed one steward eject one bloke shouting racist remarks and the stewards have even been praised by the police for there swift actions in stopping any unruly behaviour in essence calling them nazis is a lie and in no way helping your cause

neutral

EDL

22.03.2010 14:01

I'd say at the moment EDL aren't a problem, they aren't all racist,but they aren't the sharpest tools in the box. also they lack PR skills that the Tory party have!
If things ever got violent, I like to say that as the majority of them look like scaffholders most of us wouldn't last long!

from going to a lot the "antifascist demos" I'd say a lot of the middleclass lefties absolutely hate the white working class, its embarressing to hear them sterotype them/us as all as hairy apes who drink stella.

and who was that idiot outside the house of lords with the big red flag with "For Bolshevism" written on it? "Yes, we're all Bolsheviks who hate this country!"
what a twat.

And the SWP also piss me off, ruining every demo in the country.

The EDL/Casuals United love to sterotype the "antifascists" as middleclass "Tarquin" communist students who hate this country and are full of guilt, and are too scared to critize the problems with radical islam.

you could argue even if they don't agree with us at least they are out on the streets protesting...why not try to talk with them and avoid a confrontation?

jo blogs

Yes of course we should still oppose the EDL

22.03.2010 15:01

I don't want this to drag on too long but John Clarke you say you were in Harrow, we LIVE in Harrow, we're extremely well-connected locally and know lots of people and many of the area's (wildly diverse) religious and political groups personally (across the entire ideological and ethnic spectrum). We did tons of pre-emptive networking, and toured the area for some days before the protest chatting in pubs, cafes and on the street, drumming up support for the protest, getting to know more faces and getting more of a feel for local opinions (and within "we" I include myself and an Asian friend who's an ex-member of..... AFA). With all due respect you havn't offered any evidence to back up your assessment of the crowds in Harrow beyond the fact that you were there, but so were the media, and I'll reiterate you seem to be making the same mistake they did in implying that all or most of the non-white protestors were Muslims. Because of the way I dress virtually all the Muslims I met on the counter-protest assumed I'm Muslim (I'm 100% atheist) and the police have also stopped me for the crime of looking a bit Muslim. How visually would YOU distinguish a young secular Sikh lad from left-wing Parsi youth from a pacifist Bahai from a Barelvi Muslim if all wear 100% mainstream street-wear and all come from the same ethnic background? OK, tell you what, why not just NOT answer the question but accuse people whose opinions you don't support of being "keyboard warriors" instead? That should do the trick! As for suggesting we should not oppose the EDL directly because many of their supporters genuinely aren't Nazi, maybe next you'll be saying we should not oppose the BNP, because many of their supporters genuinely aren't Nazi?!

At the time of the Harrow protest EDL's SIOE colleagues swore they weren't pro-BNP, everyone smelled a rat anyway, and, whaddya know, the hunch turned out to be 100% accurate because after the protest SIOE posted pro-BNP graphics on the SIOE England Facebook. Anyway, we were standing right next to the Antifa group for quite a while during this protest - you guys stood out like a sore thumb, and I was about to say thanks for showing up anyway but your comment about "student wankers" prove your opinions are just as prejudiced as the arguments I hear from the BNP.

Not John Clarke

Sound analysis comrade

22.03.2010 15:21

Here's an idea - let's insult all the students and non-militants who oppose right-wing protests just to make sure the numbers of people who continue to oppose right-wing protests are reduced to...... Antifa

Tactical Suggestion

good points

22.03.2010 16:22

not john clarke makes some good points. He obviously knows the score where he lives, and did the hard work in the community. I was begining to think maybe we got things wrong in Bolton, with the "AFA" comments, but I see the reality on the ground myself. The rampage in Stoke when the EDL out number the left, and the obvious links with the far right (BNP etc). There is obviously a danger of bigging up the EDL with a counter demo that gives them publicity, but to leave them unchecked would be a grave mistake. Maybe the folk in Bradford should make plans for a big community street party as an alternative to the EDL rally, and reclaim the space where the EDL aim to prvoke a reaction.

giuseppe pinelli

@Not John Clarke

23.03.2010 13:35

i'll try and keep my point succinct

1. yes i am implying most of the non-white participants were muslim. This is not a criticism nor an judgment. A mosque is being targetted by a group opposed to islamic extremism. Apart from the islam-obsessed swp what motivates people who are non-muslim to attend? For us it was a scouting mission on the edl i.e an anti-fascist activity NOT a pro-muslim "defend the mosque" activity.

2. The demo was in the overwhelming majority young asian lads, that much is beyond dispute. I'd be seriously interested to know how many sikhs were present, and it what capacity. Also interested to know how you sold the event (and on whose behalf) when you went round the area.

3. of course we stood out like a sore thumbs - the only white working class lads on the demo.

4. i have nothing but respect for the way the muslim lads defended their mosque on the day. I'd question why a sikh lad would go and defend a mosque?

5. how to deal with the edl. Recognise first WHO you are dealing with. Recognise ex-army and retired hoolies with reactionay views are not by definition fascist. Recognise most of the edl are white working class. Recognise edl is a single issue campaign. Isolate the explicit far right elements with that. Concentrate on seperating out the far right elements (as opposed to the simply reactionary) and dealing with them. This is an anti-fascist strategy, not a 'protect the muslims' strategy.

6. Calling everyone in the edl "NAZI BNP" (and to be fair its the uaf students and keyboard warriors who are doing this) is not a strategy.

AFA

don't jump to assumptions

23.03.2010 14:38

who the fuck are you to ask what sikh boys were doing there?! i'm sikh, so is my brother, and so are two of my friends who came down to harrow. we came to oppose facists attempting to march on my locality. i grew up with muslims, sikhs, hindus, atheists, christians etc. in that area and we weren't going to let the sioe scum march unhindered. i still agree that the majority were muslim, but there were others. but don't question me why i would defend a mosque. i'm sure my muslim friends would come and help defend a gudhwara from facists.

another sikh in harrow

UK Indymedia

This is not a Riot: Police and the UAF at Bolton

Comments

Clueless and dangerous

Excellent

stand strong stand proud

Clueless dangerous blind and stupid.

yes fight the bnp... but don't ignore the edl.

Stupidity Disguised as 'Anti-Fascism'

Reet,me&6others were charged@by60+BNPsupporters in Kirkby ashfield about 6 yrs

it's not one OR the other...

Bolton Wanderer

in my town

EDL = BNP (but ignored the bnp) even this close to a general election

Opposing the EDL and the BNP

AFA / John Clarke

Not neo-Nazis My Fookin' Arse!!!!!!

@ Not John Clarke

@ AFA

How it should have gone

@ giuseppe pinelli

there not nazis

EDL

Yes of course we should still oppose the EDL

Sound analysis comrade

good points

@Not John Clarke

don't jump to assumptions

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