Just out of curiosity, does smothering Indy Media with fake comments actually work? I mean, does it actually drive IM's audience away?

no it don't.

Why are you an Islamophobe? Is it because you're are a Zionist? I bet you hate Islam. You must be a friend of Israel or maybe an undercover cop. It says so on the inside of my eyeballs.

" don't know if you're speaking to me but who cares, I'm an Islamophobe because I know more about Islam than you'll ever know, I'm happy to be one "

Which rather infers that you know nothing at all. Your Hatred is entirely blind.

Your are...just a racist simpleton!

"Your are...just a racist simpleton!" because I'm against Islam, since when was Islam a race, a racist is against someones skin colour not religion..... idiot."

Because your Islamophobic hatred is not based on an understanding of Islam.

Your are either Islamophobic without being vaguely aware of what Islam is, or your a racist trying to rationalise your views by hiding them behind a religion.

Either way...you are a racist simpleton.

Idiot.

"Viva la France! Women made to wear a sack is not freedom. It's a security threat too and intimidates others. If I walked round Oxford St in a balaclava I'd get arrested."

I see muslim women all the time where I live and I've never felt intimidated by them wearing a burkha.

But then again, I'm not a coward!

And also, if you want to live in a country where women are only allowed to wear what the state allows them to wear, then you should leave now. We don't want you to stay here.

I really honestly mean that.

You really are a blight on what it means to be English.

Personally I don't see the atttraction of wearing a burkqa and there is the added health risk of ricketts in northen climes because of vitamin D deficiency as sunlight on the skin is the body's way of getting this important nutrient. However we should all wear what the hell we want or nothing if we choose. What I find discriminatory here is that women (and indeed men) are often coeced into dressing in a certain way and even worse pressurised into a certain body type for example the rise and rise of plastic surgery.
What would have been entirely sensible in this case would have been leglislation which penalises any person male or female into forcing a manner of dress on another. This would have also taken care of scummy pimps and people traffickers who force youngsters into wearing revealing clothes for prostitution. By all means prosecute the hell out of some idiot who forces his wife to cover herself, but if she chooses to do this herself, and many women do what has it got to do with anyone else?
Furthermore what seems to have been missed here is that now in France anyone who masks up at demos, or wears a scarf to protect against the cold it would now seem is at risk from arrest unless this was already illegal.

@Neptune: "Fuck off and go back to ignorantly believing that Islam is compatible with Western values, I've got a newsflash for you, Islam brings nothing but problems as you obviously haven't learned yet."

Well I would say to you: Fuck off and go back to ignorantly believing that Christianity and Judaism are compatible with Western values!

All religions are anachronistic leftovers from times when superstition and dogma were the order of the day. It's true that Islam is shit but so are all the other religions too.

I don't want my life to be ruled by people who believe they have an invisible friend in the sky who talks to them. That's more a sign of mental illness than anything else.

"I don't want my life to be ruled by people who believe they have an invisible friend in the sky who talks to them. That's more a sign of mental illness than anything else"

I don't know anybody, except athiests, who believe that God lives in the sky!

It doesn't come any more ridiculous than that!

And try not to think about who rules you, for you are already ruled by those who slaughter humans for a living. God, is the least of your problems!

And Lynn, your point about Rickets through lack of sunlight in northern climes is a very interesting take on it. I suppose it can be said their are health issues over this. Burkhas are only really worn in public though, at home they are taken off, or should be. But then to balance things out I suppose wearing a silver cross around your neck will cause moderate metal poisoning over time.

Interesting point to raise though.

That's right delete my comments, it seems any form of debate isn't tolerated on Indymedia.

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."


Here is a story from Hadith
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Now explain how Muhammed was a man of peace.

"Now explain how Muhammed was a man of peace. "

So who's a radical now?

What you are doing is selectively quoting from the Quoran passages which are no longer used, or taken literally, by the majority of muslims around the world. You are then taking those passages, and attempting to apply them to the world we inhabit.

This is exactly what the minescule minority of Islamic radicals are doing and tends to be what the minescule minority of reactionary western counter-radicals are doing.

In the same way that English churches are no longer stoning people for cursing the face of God or putting to death people who reject the word of God, so muslims around the world do not continue to expect that domestic violence must be excused in the same way it was in the original Quoran.

The world has moved on and that movement is as true for muslims as it is for Catholics, Anglicans or any other belief.

Go read the bible and you will find passages in which Jesus...extolls the practice of murder!

But, sensibly, those of faith do not fixate over small sparce passages to explain the character of the prophets. They tend to fixate on the good that the prophets put forward, of which their is tremendous evidence.

Rather than quoting me something that may have been literally true fifteen hundred years ago, tell me all about how the Quoran has been revised over that time, and tell me how muslims have changed the meaning of the Quoran by fifteen hundreds years of constant revision!

Tell me what these passages mean now?

The sunlight / rickets idea is a load of crap - about as interesting as a wet towel.

I think you are clouding the issue with a "Is islam correct blah blah".
This article is about banning the burka. But, as you have correctly stated, religions evolve from the primitive to the slightly less primitive. Gone are the days of sacrificing animals and beating servants, gone are the days of beating you wife and Mo saying thats ok, and gone (or nearly gone) are the days of wearing silly customs designed to stop the men folk from getting hard-ons and getting up to no good.

The burka is no longer needed. I cannot think of one rational reason to keep it.

It is completely irrational and without a religious foundation would probably set alarm bells ringing amongst the mental health community.

Religion has progressed. Isn't it time it grew up a bit more and got rid of this silly thing.

"The burka is no longer needed. I cannot think of one rational reason to keep it.

You are not a pious muslim woman, and yet you are comfortable making her choices for her!

Perhaps I should start making your choices for you?

The problem with the Burqua is that it is hard to find out how many are pressured into wearing it. My guess is many women, but how many will go to Police for protection? Could the police legitimately protect all who were being oppressed by it? Of course not! They have enough problems dealing with honour killing issues.

The problem with the Burqua debate is that everyone assumes that those women who so call want it, may have been manipulated into thinking it's good for them by Islamists. Many Islamists are upset by the liberties we have in this country in regards to dress and would like muslim women here to cover up also like they do in Saudi or Afghanistan. Not only do they keep stressing that women will go to hell for wearing short skirts - it is clear that for them every woman wearing a short skirt is a prostitute asking for it. Because Islamists believe that it is women that cause men's sexual arousal and because their laws offer no protection to women against rape, they are keen to stress that "proper muslim women should cover up - "the more the better" - [otherwise if they get raped, they should be executed for adultery, according to Sharia]. In mosques these women hear from Islamist Imams that it is best if women are not seen, as many do not want them to be part of public sphere anyway, and worse still - tell them that they might go to hell if they do not cover up properly (well regarding the hijab anyway). Then what do you expect?

Joshua quote verses from the Bible that call for violence, you can't can you?

You clearly don't get the point I was making, the man who started Islam was a violent warlord and Muslims think this man is the perfect human. Most Muslims don't take all of the Quran seriously, you're right about that. But they aren't true Muslims because of this, true Muslims are the ones that would kill non-Muslims.

And you still haven't explained how I am a racist, if I hate Muslims then I would be Sectarian. But the thing is I don't hate Muslims, just Islam.

Joshua: "I don't know anybody, except atheists, who believe that God lives in the sky!"

Not literally maybe, but that's pretty much the idea in colloquial terms.

So it's some kind of "magic" dimension that is invisible to humans then, but where this magic being can still affect us from? That doesn't really make it sound any more sensible; the opposite in fact!

Religion is still a completely ludicrous and nonsensical idea if you think about it rationally without all the centuries of cultural brainwashing to back it up. I can't believe that people genuinely believe this stuff. I think they just go along with it for social climbing or to control people.

"you are already ruled by those who slaughter humans for a living"

That's true, and virtually all politicians pay at least lip-service to religion. I'm not saying atheists would be much better, but at least they have some concept of critical thinking.

Have you ever tried to eat in a Burkha?

"Joshua quote verses from the Bible that call for violence, you can't can you? You clearly don't get the point I was making, the man who started Islam was a violent warlord and Muslims think this man is the perfect human. Most Muslims don't take all of the Quran seriously, you're right about that. But they aren't true Muslims because of this, true Muslims are the ones that would kill non-Muslims."

I haven't quoted from the Bible. Why would I do that having just berated you for quoting from the Quoran. I said that some passages illustrate that Jesus, being considered a man of peace, if taken literally, was decidedly un peaceful.

And your point about who is considered a true Muslim is mute. Each and every follower of Islam takes a variant approach to what it means to be pious. For each and every follower of Islam, the text of the Quoran is used as a guide to understanding how the word of God was revealed through the vessel Allah. In exactly the same way that priests use the Bible to understand how the word of God was revealed through the vessel Jesus.

That Allah is considered to have been a violent warlord by some, does not detract from the fact that for the pious, the word of God has been detected as emanating through him. For the peaceful and the pious, Allah the warlord is not important. Allah the vessel is.

It is not true that Muslims consider Allah to be the perfect human, only that he was a man who ascended to heaven. You should think very carefully about what that means, given that he had previously been a man of violence!

Muslim radicals do not see the vessel, they see only the man, and they take him literally as a man and believe his words to be his own. For the vast majority of Muslims, this is utter nonsense, as is the notion that literal rigidity in observance of Islam constitutes being a 'true muslim'. It does not.

This is not a failing of Islam, it is a failing of men!

Not so long ago, here in this country, a similar failing of men appeared. People were hung, beheaded, imprisoned and tortured all in the name of a literal absorption of the text of the Bible. These men saw only the saga, not the truth behind the saga.

From time to time, these imbeciles form into clumps and before you know it you have a repressive, violent, misguided, confused and belligerent cartel of cretins and gangsters trying to rule in the name of their own stupidity.

If you say you are an Islamophobe, these cretins have you by the balls.

I don't like to say you are a racist Neptune. Its just the safest thing to do when the English say they don't trust Islam!

But as a previous poster has already pointed out, correctly I suppose, this isn't a discussion on the legitimacy of Islam or the Burkha, it is a discussion on whether the Burkha should be banned and others have pointed to the reasons why Muslim women continue to wear the Burkha.

But, of course, the 'debate' has already been framed in terms of whether the Burkha should be banned in the UK, not the more valuable "why has it just been banned in France?"

The Sarkozy Government is now very weak and this vote is more about a struggling Government than it is about religion or the rights of women! In a lot of ways, this vote in France is an illustration of how predatory and exploitative secular Governments become toward Islam when domestic political troubles appear on the horizon. Islam is, and has been, a political football for quite some time.

We won't ban the Burkha in the UK, because our Government isn't weak enough to need to do it.

Talk of the banning Burquas being un-British is really ridiculous. How many of these Burqua wearing women will be able to find jobs in the UK or make friends with people around them if they are wearing a Burqua. Would you employ someone wearing a Burqua? I would not - I couldn''t see who they are for one. Traditionally Burquas have been worn by women in countries that like to see women confined to the home, not working out in public - the same countries that want women neither seen nor heard. Is this something we want to encourage in the UK? I hope not. Muslim women should be encouraged to be part of society, not cut off from it. Islamists like to make them think that they are "better & more morally upright" women if they wear such outfits, which is frankly superficial and ridiculous. We need to encourage muslim women and men to be more secular in outlook and democratic-minded, not promoting Sharia which disenpowers women completely.

In regards to Mohammed, while some muslim think he was not perfect, apparently he considered himself perfect...

"Allah created the creatures and made me the best of them. He chose the tribes and selected me from the best of them. Then he chose the households, making me the best of their households. I am the best of them in household" - from the Sealed Nectar- Biography of the prophet.

Not very humble then. If he was perfection personified, then God help the rest of us!

What one's lineage has to do with one's uprightness I do not know. I mean, what if I am not from a respectable lineage, does that make me genetically a non upright person? Do we not all come from the same ancestor - so are we not all really from the same lineage? If my lineage is less then perfect, does changing my lineage name allow me to redeem myself? In my opinion the Arab obsession with lineage is very damaging, as it causes sectarianism instead of unity and brings encourages terrible things like honour killings. Best done away with in my opinion, for progress of humanity.

Someone suggested that Islamic texts Hadiths are no longer relevant except for a few muslim terrorists. I choose to disagree with that assumption. It is not just muslim terrorists who want Sharia followed. Many muslim clerics in UK and many European countries have set up Sharia Courts and Arbitration Tribunals and are encouraging pious muslims to follow Sharia as opposed to British law. They are putting a lot of pressure on mosque-goers to be ruled by Hadith based Laws which is really disturbing. At the moment they are not asking for criminal Sharia to be introduced here but want a system set up where Sharia rulings become the norm for dealing with issues in the muslim community regarding all civil matters (even criminal matters linked to family law issues). This should be strongly opposed in my opinion, as these laws are not based on Universal Human Rights principles.

As yet to my knowledge there is no research concerning burqas and sunlight but some women who do cover up all the time, so I have heard, are reported to have developed rickets which for those who do not know is gross deformation of the bones. Those who recieve no sunlight on the skin are at risk of this horrible disease and unless women have a nice secluded garden to sit in bearing their skin I would not be suprised at all if their health was at risk. Of course in the Arabic states it would be ridiculous not to cover up healthwise as anyone would burn very quickly but this is an important point children are especially at risk as their bones are developing. There was an epidemic of rickets during the industrial revolution when smoke filled skies blocked out the sunlight.
Part of making a choice is that it is an informed choice and if indeed lack of sunlight is going to cause medical problems then people need to know about it. Women who wear burqas could be advised to sit in sunlight at home.
Of course if anyone wants to wear a burqa that is up to them just as it is up to someone if they so wish to pierce their nipples or totter around on high heels, or do all 3. I see no reason to do any of these things myself, in fact I couldn't think of anything worse but then I am just boring. Where this becomes an issue for me is if anyone is forced into wearing a burqa especially minors when it then becomes a child protection matter.
Those who force others into a burqa, or anything else, should invoke the wrath of society, it should be robustly dealt with.

"In regards to Mohammed, while some muslim think he was not perfect, apparently he considered himself perfect...

"Allah created the creatures and made me the best of them. He chose the tribes and selected me from the best of them. Then he chose the households, making me the best of their households. I am the best of them in household" - from the Sealed Nectar- Biography of the prophet."

For the truly pious. This is Allah speaking, not Mohammad!

For Mohammad had, by this time, been made a man of peace. It is a message of very great comfort, for those who follow and understand the word of Allah.

"Of course if anyone wants to wear a burqa that is up to them just as it is up to someone if they so wish to pierce their nipples or totter around on high heels, or do all 3. I see no reason to do any of these things myself, in fact I couldn't think of anything worse but then I am just boring."

Personally, I don't think your boring. You sound like a very pleasant and engaging woman to me.

Have you looked into the other health complications of Vitamin D deficiency especially in northern hemisphere countries?