Banning The Burka - Bad news for French Burka models
Don't Panic | 20.07.2010 11:52 | Culture | Gender | Social Struggles
http://dontpaniconline.com/magazine/politics/banning-the-burka
Don't Panic
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Curiosity
20.07.2010 18:28
Joshua
no
20.07.2010 18:55
just a_geek
why
20.07.2010 20:31
anon
Er
20.07.2010 21:36
Which rather infers that you know nothing at all. Your Hatred is entirely blind.
Your are...just a racist simpleton!
Joshua
Response to the Racist simpleton!
20.07.2010 23:19
Because your Islamophobic hatred is not based on an understanding of Islam.
Your are either Islamophobic without being vaguely aware of what Islam is, or your a racist trying to rationalise your views by hiding them behind a religion.
Either way...you are a racist simpleton.
Idiot.
Joshua
Balaclava's & Burkha's
20.07.2010 23:45
I see muslim women all the time where I live and I've never felt intimidated by them wearing a burkha.
But then again, I'm not a coward!
And also, if you want to live in a country where women are only allowed to wear what the state allows them to wear, then you should leave now. We don't want you to stay here.
I really honestly mean that.
You really are a blight on what it means to be English.
Maccy
Ban is discrimination
21.07.2010 08:38
What would have been entirely sensible in this case would have been leglislation which penalises any person male or female into forcing a manner of dress on another. This would have also taken care of scummy pimps and people traffickers who force youngsters into wearing revealing clothes for prostitution. By all means prosecute the hell out of some idiot who forces his wife to cover herself, but if she chooses to do this herself, and many women do what has it got to do with anyone else?
Furthermore what seems to have been missed here is that now in France anyone who masks up at demos, or wears a scarf to protect against the cold it would now seem is at risk from arrest unless this was already illegal.
Lynn Sawyer
re: ignorantly believing that Islam is compatible with Western values
21.07.2010 09:35
Well I would say to you: Fuck off and go back to ignorantly believing that Christianity and Judaism are compatible with Western values!
All religions are anachronistic leftovers from times when superstition and dogma were the order of the day. It's true that Islam is shit but so are all the other religions too.
I don't want my life to be ruled by people who believe they have an invisible friend in the sky who talks to them. That's more a sign of mental illness than anything else.
@theist
Playscool politics
21.07.2010 10:35
I don't know anybody, except athiests, who believe that God lives in the sky!
It doesn't come any more ridiculous than that!
And try not to think about who rules you, for you are already ruled by those who slaughter humans for a living. God, is the least of your problems!
And Lynn, your point about Rickets through lack of sunlight in northern climes is a very interesting take on it. I suppose it can be said their are health issues over this. Burkhas are only really worn in public though, at home they are taken off, or should be. But then to balance things out I suppose wearing a silver cross around your neck will cause moderate metal poisoning over time.
Interesting point to raise though.
Joshua
?
21.07.2010 13:39
Neptune
Islam a religion of peace?
21.07.2010 15:17
Here is a story from Hadith
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
Now explain how Muhammed was a man of peace.
Neptune
Radicalisation.
21.07.2010 20:25
So who's a radical now?
What you are doing is selectively quoting from the Quoran passages which are no longer used, or taken literally, by the majority of muslims around the world. You are then taking those passages, and attempting to apply them to the world we inhabit.
This is exactly what the minescule minority of Islamic radicals are doing and tends to be what the minescule minority of reactionary western counter-radicals are doing.
In the same way that English churches are no longer stoning people for cursing the face of God or putting to death people who reject the word of God, so muslims around the world do not continue to expect that domestic violence must be excused in the same way it was in the original Quoran.
The world has moved on and that movement is as true for muslims as it is for Catholics, Anglicans or any other belief.
Go read the bible and you will find passages in which Jesus...extolls the practice of murder!
But, sensibly, those of faith do not fixate over small sparce passages to explain the character of the prophets. They tend to fixate on the good that the prophets put forward, of which their is tremendous evidence.
Rather than quoting me something that may have been literally true fifteen hundred years ago, tell me all about how the Quoran has been revised over that time, and tell me how muslims have changed the meaning of the Quoran by fifteen hundreds years of constant revision!
Tell me what these passages mean now?
Joshua
@Joshua
21.07.2010 23:34
I think you are clouding the issue with a "Is islam correct blah blah".
This article is about banning the burka. But, as you have correctly stated, religions evolve from the primitive to the slightly less primitive. Gone are the days of sacrificing animals and beating servants, gone are the days of beating you wife and Mo saying thats ok, and gone (or nearly gone) are the days of wearing silly customs designed to stop the men folk from getting hard-ons and getting up to no good.
The burka is no longer needed. I cannot think of one rational reason to keep it.
It is completely irrational and without a religious foundation would probably set alarm bells ringing amongst the mental health community.
Religion has progressed. Isn't it time it grew up a bit more and got rid of this silly thing.
sky rocket
Thinking is hard work, isnt it?
22.07.2010 09:20
You are not a pious muslim woman, and yet you are comfortable making her choices for her!
Perhaps I should start making your choices for you?
Joshua
The problem with the Burqua
22.07.2010 13:32
The problem with the Burqua debate is that everyone assumes that those women who so call want it, may have been manipulated into thinking it's good for them by Islamists. Many Islamists are upset by the liberties we have in this country in regards to dress and would like muslim women here to cover up also like they do in Saudi or Afghanistan. Not only do they keep stressing that women will go to hell for wearing short skirts - it is clear that for them every woman wearing a short skirt is a prostitute asking for it. Because Islamists believe that it is women that cause men's sexual arousal and because their laws offer no protection to women against rape, they are keen to stress that "proper muslim women should cover up - "the more the better" - [otherwise if they get raped, they should be executed for adultery, according to Sharia]. In mosques these women hear from Islamist Imams that it is best if women are not seen, as many do not want them to be part of public sphere anyway, and worse still - tell them that they might go to hell if they do not cover up properly (well regarding the hijab anyway). Then what do you expect?
One Law For All Supporter
Response to Joshua
22.07.2010 15:54
You clearly don't get the point I was making, the man who started Islam was a violent warlord and Muslims think this man is the perfect human. Most Muslims don't take all of the Quran seriously, you're right about that. But they aren't true Muslims because of this, true Muslims are the ones that would kill non-Muslims.
And you still haven't explained how I am a racist, if I hate Muslims then I would be Sectarian. But the thing is I don't hate Muslims, just Islam.
Neptune
re: Playscool politics
22.07.2010 16:35
Not literally maybe, but that's pretty much the idea in colloquial terms.
So it's some kind of "magic" dimension that is invisible to humans then, but where this magic being can still affect us from? That doesn't really make it sound any more sensible; the opposite in fact!
Religion is still a completely ludicrous and nonsensical idea if you think about it rationally without all the centuries of cultural brainwashing to back it up. I can't believe that people genuinely believe this stuff. I think they just go along with it for social climbing or to control people.
"you are already ruled by those who slaughter humans for a living"
That's true, and virtually all politicians pay at least lip-service to religion. I'm not saying atheists would be much better, but at least they have some concept of critical thinking.
@theist
To all those that support Burkhas
22.07.2010 16:51
Why make life difficult
@Neptune
23.07.2010 00:47
I haven't quoted from the Bible. Why would I do that having just berated you for quoting from the Quoran. I said that some passages illustrate that Jesus, being considered a man of peace, if taken literally, was decidedly un peaceful.
And your point about who is considered a true Muslim is mute. Each and every follower of Islam takes a variant approach to what it means to be pious. For each and every follower of Islam, the text of the Quoran is used as a guide to understanding how the word of God was revealed through the vessel Allah. In exactly the same way that priests use the Bible to understand how the word of God was revealed through the vessel Jesus.
That Allah is considered to have been a violent warlord by some, does not detract from the fact that for the pious, the word of God has been detected as emanating through him. For the peaceful and the pious, Allah the warlord is not important. Allah the vessel is.
It is not true that Muslims consider Allah to be the perfect human, only that he was a man who ascended to heaven. You should think very carefully about what that means, given that he had previously been a man of violence!
Muslim radicals do not see the vessel, they see only the man, and they take him literally as a man and believe his words to be his own. For the vast majority of Muslims, this is utter nonsense, as is the notion that literal rigidity in observance of Islam constitutes being a 'true muslim'. It does not.
This is not a failing of Islam, it is a failing of men!
Not so long ago, here in this country, a similar failing of men appeared. People were hung, beheaded, imprisoned and tortured all in the name of a literal absorption of the text of the Bible. These men saw only the saga, not the truth behind the saga.
From time to time, these imbeciles form into clumps and before you know it you have a repressive, violent, misguided, confused and belligerent cartel of cretins and gangsters trying to rule in the name of their own stupidity.
If you say you are an Islamophobe, these cretins have you by the balls.
I don't like to say you are a racist Neptune. Its just the safest thing to do when the English say they don't trust Islam!
But as a previous poster has already pointed out, correctly I suppose, this isn't a discussion on the legitimacy of Islam or the Burkha, it is a discussion on whether the Burkha should be banned and others have pointed to the reasons why Muslim women continue to wear the Burkha.
But, of course, the 'debate' has already been framed in terms of whether the Burkha should be banned in the UK, not the more valuable "why has it just been banned in France?"
The Sarkozy Government is now very weak and this vote is more about a struggling Government than it is about religion or the rights of women! In a lot of ways, this vote in France is an illustration of how predatory and exploitative secular Governments become toward Islam when domestic political troubles appear on the horizon. Islam is, and has been, a political football for quite some time.
We won't ban the Burkha in the UK, because our Government isn't weak enough to need to do it.
Joshua
Banning Burquas un-British - give me a break!
23.07.2010 11:29
In regards to Mohammed, while some muslim think he was not perfect, apparently he considered himself perfect...
"Allah created the creatures and made me the best of them. He chose the tribes and selected me from the best of them. Then he chose the households, making me the best of their households. I am the best of them in household" - from the Sealed Nectar- Biography of the prophet.
Not very humble then. If he was perfection personified, then God help the rest of us!
What one's lineage has to do with one's uprightness I do not know. I mean, what if I am not from a respectable lineage, does that make me genetically a non upright person? Do we not all come from the same ancestor - so are we not all really from the same lineage? If my lineage is less then perfect, does changing my lineage name allow me to redeem myself? In my opinion the Arab obsession with lineage is very damaging, as it causes sectarianism instead of unity and brings encourages terrible things like honour killings. Best done away with in my opinion, for progress of humanity.
Supporter of the One Law For All Campaign
Hadiths no longer relevant? Since when???
23.07.2010 12:02
Supporter of the One Law For All Campaign
@ Joshua
23.07.2010 18:00
Part of making a choice is that it is an informed choice and if indeed lack of sunlight is going to cause medical problems then people need to know about it. Women who wear burqas could be advised to sit in sunlight at home.
Of course if anyone wants to wear a burqa that is up to them just as it is up to someone if they so wish to pierce their nipples or totter around on high heels, or do all 3. I see no reason to do any of these things myself, in fact I couldn't think of anything worse but then I am just boring. Where this becomes an issue for me is if anyone is forced into wearing a burqa especially minors when it then becomes a child protection matter.
Those who force others into a burqa, or anything else, should invoke the wrath of society, it should be robustly dealt with.
Lynn Sawyer
Interchangability
24.07.2010 00:12
"Allah created the creatures and made me the best of them. He chose the tribes and selected me from the best of them. Then he chose the households, making me the best of their households. I am the best of them in household" - from the Sealed Nectar- Biography of the prophet."
For the truly pious. This is Allah speaking, not Mohammad!
For Mohammad had, by this time, been made a man of peace. It is a message of very great comfort, for those who follow and understand the word of Allah.
Joshua
@Lynn
24.07.2010 00:32
Personally, I don't think your boring. You sound like a very pleasant and engaging woman to me.
Have you looked into the other health complications of Vitamin D deficiency especially in northern hemisphere countries?
Joshua