"an extremely reactive
breakdown product which begins to form in flesh almost
immediately after the animal is killed. Malonaldehyde becomes even
more potent when the meat is heated."

which is why cows should be eaten raw, preferably while still alive...

but seriously, its ridiculous to claim that meat isn't good for you we've eaten it for millions of years, we were predators until we settled down and started farming and it became possible to have the kindof starvation diet that you'd have us eat.

As for the 7th day adventists as evidence of a cancer free vegetarian lifestyle, they also don't drink or smoke so its hardly a fair comparison. Mormons on the other hand don't drink or smoke AND eat meat and have less cancer than 7th day adventists. veganism = civilised crock'o'shit.

the website shows that there's 8 doctors who arew part of pcrm, the 1500 members are just a bunch of starving vegans getting arsey cos they lack B12 and have fucked their guts with grains and sugar

1. Humans have never eaten as much meat as we do now. Maybe the very wealthy did but never this many people on this scale. Meat was something you ate maybe once a week or as a micro ingredient to a meal.
2. The meat eaten now is often pumped full of antibiotics and full of nice resistant bacteria. The factory farm churns out a chemically different product to what omnivores ate only a few decades ago.
3. Even if the meat comes from the corpse of an individual who was wild and free there is the matter of mecury in fish and DDT in fatty tissue not something our ancestors face.
4. Other apes may eat meat but in minute quantities and include insects etc, our physiology is more like theirs rather than the true carnivores such as cats and sharks.
5. Milk! Is anyone seriously suggesting that we as a species have evolved to depend on the lactation of another species? No-one needs to drink milk except babies and toddlers and the very best milk they can drink is human milk.

Enjoy the experiment is all I can say and the cancer, the heart disease, the diabetes etc that goes with it. Of course vegans are not immune we can eat crap such as crisps, chocolate etc but we are probably more likely to be able to cook from scratch using fresh vegetables. I fail to see why public money should pay to subsidise both your choice and the pollution and health risks that meat eating induces.

"I fail to see why public money should pay to subsidise both your choice and the pollution and health risks that meat eating induces."

Thats a fair point. But... I think that any food production causes pollution, eg. fertalisers washing into rivers etc. But you are correct with meat. Even on a local scale, cowpats cause an enormous amount of pollution.

Regarding health subsidisation....
I completely agree on your may point of "why should I?". But i disagree on the meat aspect.
What is more important is a general health aspect.

I'm a regular meat eater, but I'm consider myself very healthy. I exercise 5 times a week, sometimes twice a day during the week, and do sport at the weekends, I eat healthily (very little junk food, no pop, no crisps, no chocolate etc etc, lots of fresh veg and fruit etc). I hardly ever drink and never smoke. The result - I'm am fitter and more healthy than many people who are 15 years younger than me.

I work in an office. Nearly everyone suffers bad backs and can't lift anything heavy You can hear them puffing after climbing a few flights of stairs. They will drive 5 minutes to the shop. Its tragic. The level of understanding is mind boggling. I heard a conversation the other day: "oh, xxxxx, youve gone healthy today?", I looked at what xxxxx was eating and she was smuggly porking into a giant bowl of pasta salad with sauce! I just had to shake my head, not even worth explaining to her.

Why should I subsidise people who can not be bothered looking after their health?
People who do no exercise will get out of breathe walking up a flight of stairs. Why should I pay for their laziness when they get sick and suffer heart disease?

You may argue that in this day and age, there is no reason to eat meat at the rate we do, and therefore why should you pay for their choice.
I would argue that in this day and age, everyone knows you need to do exercise to be healthy. Why should I pay for fat people's lazy lifestyle choices?

My point...
As far as i can see there are two choices:
1/ we become a fascist state whereby we dictate what people can eat and how much exercise they do via law
2/ Or do we simply charge people extra tax for making the choices that cost more?













1. Humans have never eaten as much meat as we do now. Maybe the very wealthy did but never this many people on this scale. Meat was something you ate maybe once a week or as a micro ingredient to a meal.
2. The meat eaten now is often pumped full of antibiotics and full of nice resistant bacteria. The factory farm churns out a chemically different product to what omnivores ate only a few decades ago.
3. Even if the meat comes from the corpse of an individual who was wild and free there is the matter of mecury in fish and DDT in fatty tissue not something our ancestors face.
4. Other apes may eat meat but in minute quantities and include insects etc, our physiology is more like theirs rather than the true carnivores such as cats and sharks.
5. Milk! Is anyone seriously suggesting that we as a species have evolved to depend on the lactation of another species? No-one needs to drink milk except babies and toddlers and the very best milk they can drink is human milk.

Enjoy the experiment is all I can say and the cancer, the heart disease, the diabetes etc that goes with it. Of course vegans are not immune we can eat crap such as crisps, chocolate etc but we are probably more likely to be able to cook from scratch using fresh vegetables. I fail to see why public money should pay to subsidise both your choice and the pollution and health risks that meat eating induces.

I cannot reasonably argue that if someone eats a small ammount of meat occasssionally that they are endangering their health. I am vegan for moral reasons, I am not starving so I see no ethical reason to kill a sentient individual. Of course as every victim of our meat eating society has to be fed and watered until they are murdered that food and fresh water could have been fed directly to humans I consume 10 times less of the Earth's resources than the AVERAGE meat eater including oil etc. The only sewage I produce is my own, meat eaters are also responsible for the sewage of their victims and that is a lot of shit! Furthermore we have oestrogens from pregnant and lactating animals, antibiotics and resistant bacteria entering our water courses. As I vegan I am not guilty and I do wonder whether or not decreasing human fertility and "superbugs" are the result of animal farming.
Of course I can still improve, I do buy local and organic where I can and am not adverse to skipped food, I do buy fair trade but my consumption of luxury goods, tea, coffee, chocolate, alcohol do not go in my favour! I do believe that we should have some enjoyment in life though.
It would be very foolish of me to say that I am perfect. Compared to a Kalahari bushman or to someone who eats only skipped food and lives very lightly on the Earth I do not do as well. Compared to someone who eats McDonalds thrice a day, quaffing Nescafe etc I think I am allowed to be a little smug.
My point about health resources for meat eaters was more a fit of pique than anything else and actually I think you were right to point out that all should be treated by the NHS, I do actually agree with you, in fact I am a health worker. If we start analysing people's behaviours and ration healthcare as a result it would be draconian. However "free" healthcare for virtually all (refugees and other poor folk recieve bills sometimes but are treated first and foremost) is an amazing achievement but is regarded as routine by so many. We need to jealously guard the free and point of need principle but so many people see no need to look after their own health. Someone who stuffs themselves with crap, smokes, binge drinks and does no exercise will recieve free care for diabetes, heart disease, cancer etc but if this becomes the norm and obesity levels are going through the roof, it will be unsustainable. Big business, the junk food barons should be tackled of course but adults do need to take responsibilty for themselves and the environment. I have partially done this by being vegan, having a rescue dog and being dragged out on walkies, could do better maybe but I am trying and so should those who stuff themselves full of corpses.
We also need to recognise the ecological catastrophe which will ensue when China and India adopt our current western diet, there simply will not be enough land or fresh water to provide everyone with meat and dairy. People will starve in greater numbers, there will be more bloodshed. maybe it would be better to be vegan so that everyone can be fed?