I bet Indymedia is happy that some "imperialist" US soldiers were killed.

Indymedia is sick.

Of course, if the foreign armies do not leave spontaneously the Afghans have every right under the sun to kick them out their country by every means necessary. Self defence is a must. The soldiers who went to invade Afghaistan from various imperialistic countries are all volunteers not conscripts.
The numbers of Afghan civilians killed far exceedes those of foreing soldiers killed.

Certainly Press TV, from whose website this article is copy and pasted verbatim but without attribution, will be happy about these deaths...

... can we get rid of these comments?

>> Of course, if the foreign armies do not leave spontaneously the Afghans have every right under the sun to kick them out their country by every means necessary. Self defence is a must. The soldiers who went to invade Afghanistan from various imperialistic countries are all volunteers not conscripts.

What you are saying is almost that I should have the right to kick out all the foriegners from the UK by every means necessary. I do not have any such right, because that would make me an insurgent in conflict with the legitimate government.

You'll talking about the Taliban. The "foreign armies" are the counter-insurgents who are combating the the "Taliban" who are the insurgents. Insurgents do not have a right to do anything like kicking people out of tte country because they are not the legitimate government, in the same way that you or I have no right to kick anyone out of this country.


>> The soldiers who went to invade Afghaistan from various imperialistic countries are all volunteers not conscripts.
Yes, and they are doing a valuable job in return for a honest pay packet. I don't see you going over there to sort the trouble out. You'd rather be sat here watching it on TV.


>> The numbers of Afghan civilians killed far exceedes those of foreing soldiers killed.
Are you saying it would be ok then, if the number of civilians = the number of foreign soldiers killed? The only reason to bring numbers into the equation is for purely for vendetta purposes.
It is completely meaningless. Right or Wrong is what is important, not numbers.

Afghans are fighting back.
And lets not hear any of that SWP "our working class hero boys" 'cus by enlarge there neither working class nor heros, but government stooges. They ask for what they get.

"What you are saying is almost that I should have the right to kick out all the foriegners from the UK by every means necessary. I do not have any such right, because that would make me an insurgent in conflict with the legitimate government.

You'll talking about the Taliban. The "foreign armies" are the counter-insurgents who are combating the the "Taliban" who are the insurgents. Insurgents do not have a right to do anything like kicking people out of tte country because they are not the legitimate government, in the same way that you or I have no right to kick anyone out of this country."

Under international law it is the right of the domestic population to resist foreign occupation and intervention. It is the right of the domestic population to resist by any means reasonable and that includes armed insurrection, sabotage and counter invasion tactic & strategy.

It is the right of all citizens of a sovereign entity, subject to forced intervention or invasion, to resist and refuse to recognise any government set-up up by the occupying force.

The Taliban are entirely within international law in resisting the United States and the United Kingdom while they continue to occupy the country.

The invasion of Afghanistan is illegal. Killing British and American soldiers is not.

Afghanistan has been invaded by a force that cannot claim international support among the domestic population of any country. That force continues to occupy the country and continues to forcibly prop up a deeply corrupt regime that is despised by the domestic population.

It continues to violate the covenant between the monarch and the Armed Forces. It continues to falsely claim that the occupation directly correlates with the national security of the United Kingdom. It continues to flout international law and continues to harass, mutilate and butcher the ordinary people of Afghanistan in the name of fighting a foe that is entirely within international law in its resistance to the continuing occupation.

It continues to flout the trust of the people of the united Kingdom in each of the estates be it first, second, third or fourth. It continues to lie, deceive, misdirect, omit, defraud and dismiss the British public in the name of a deeply illegal action that has cost the lives of countless tens of thousands of innocent people. None of whom it bears witness too.

It continues to damage, chip away at, and destabilise the very way of life it told you was under threat if it did not commit to an invasion it could not justify for reasons it will never tell you.

Our government absolutely will not stop, until it finally has us in the iron grip of a lie that we will never be able to bear!

>> Under international law it is the right of the domestic population to resist foreign occupation and intervention. It is the right of the domestic population to resist by any means reasonable and that includes armed insurrection, sabotage and counter invasion tactic & strategy.
Great. Except... It isn't an occupation because the territory isn't under the authority of the foreign armies. So, no, they don't have a right to do that. They do not have the right to do things that the government have made illegal.

>> It is the right of all citizens of a sovereign entity, subject to forced intervention or invasion, to resist and refuse to recognise any government set-up up by the occupying force.
Its not an invasion. The government wasn't setup. Hamid Karzai was the first democratically elected head of state in Afghanistan, in the same way that Hamas is democratically elected.

>> The Taliban are entirely within international law in resisting the United States and the United Kingdom while they continue to occupy the country.
Its not occupied

>> The invasion of Afghanistan is illegal. Killing British and American soldiers is not.
No it isn't. Yes it is.

>> Afghanistan has been invaded by a force that cannot claim international support among the domestic population of any country. That force continues to occupy the country and continues to forcibly prop up a deeply corrupt regime that is despised by the domestic population.
The ballot box seems to show difference to your 'opinion'.

>> It continues to violate the covenant between the monarch and the Armed Forces. It continues to falsely claim that the occupation directly correlates with the national security of the United Kingdom. It continues to flout international law and continues to harass, mutilate and butcher the ordinary people of Afghanistan in the name of fighting a foe that is entirely within international law in its resistance to the continuing occupation.
And what about us? We are continually under threat from terrorists. We continually have to watch their hatred of us, their flag burning, their threats of killing us all. Their promises to destroy all us infidels even though I'm not an infidel. They religious zealots decreeing that muslims should attack us with suicides bombs. We arn't going to sit back and let them breed this hatred. We are going to do something about it.

>> It continues to flout the trust of the people of the united Kingdom in each of the estates be it first, second, third or fourth. It continues to lie, deceive, misdirect, omit, defraud and dismiss the British public in the name of a deeply illegal action that has cost the lives of countless tens of thousands of innocent people. None of whom it bears witness too.
Apart from the cost, I don't hear that much dissent. I think most people would like a cheaper way but beyond that it has seemed to get results.

>> It continues to damage, chip away at, and destabilise the very way of life it told you was under threat if it did not commit to an invasion it could not justify for reasons it will never tell you.
In your opinion. I have freedom to do virtually what i want in this country, unlike Afganistan where if you are a woman you are complete f***ed. This country has freedom and equality. Afganistan's bad elements is run be religious hatred.

>> Our government absolutely will not stop, until it finally has us in the iron grip of a lie that we will never be able to bear!
Good. Thats the whole point not to stop half way though. Get the job done.

"Good. That's the whole point not to stop half way though. Get the job done."

Why don't you go to Afghanistan, stop in a village anywhere you like and with a megaphone, say that out loud.

We'll have a fundraiser to buy your coffin for you.

"Great. Except... It isn't an occupation because the territory isn't under the authority of the foreign armies. So, no, they don't have a right to do that. They do not have the right to do things that the government have made illegal."

The Karzai government is widely considered to be a puppet installation of the occupying forces. Much of that view emanating from Afghanistan itself. Much of that view shared outside Afghanistan.

"The government wasn't setup. Hamid Karzai was the first democratically elected head of state in Afghanistan, in the same way that Hamas is democratically elected."

Ditto. The government of Hamas has not been formed by an occupying force.

"The ballot box seems to show difference to your 'opinion'.

The ballot box in Afghanistan has been used in lots of ways in Afghanistan by the puppet government setup by the occupying force. Over the course of the previous few days, elections once again been marked by corruption, disinformation and fraudulent reporting. Yet again there are allegations of corruption, low turnout falsely attributed to 'security concerns' and a rising belief among ordinary Afghani's that, contrary to what they have been told by village elders, voting is not the best way to appease the occupying force in order to get them to leave!

"And what about us? We are continually under threat from terrorists. We continually have to watch their hatred of us, their flag burning, their threats of killing us all. Their promises to destroy all us infidels even though I'm not an infidel. They religious zealots decreeing that muslims should attack us with suicides bombs. We arn't going to sit back and let them breed this hatred. We are going to do something about it."

Yes, how is that terrorism thing working out for you these days. Still living in crippling fear?

"Apart from the cost, I don't hear that much dissent. I think most people would like a cheaper way but beyond that it has seemed to get results."

Austerity anyone? In the end, your concerns about your future will be decided on what's left in your wallet. In the end, your sense of what is right and wrong will count for nothing.

"In your opinion. I have freedom to do virtually what i want in this country, unlike Afganistan where if you are a woman you are complete f***ed. This country has freedom and equality. Afganistan's bad elements is run be religious hatred."

Yes, you do have the freedom to do what you want. You have the freedom to be poor, penniless and broke. You even have the freedom to complain pointlessly about it.

"Good. That's the whole point not to stop half way though. Get the job done."

What you are talking about is stumbling on until the violence dissipates to a level that allows for withdrawal. I know this is the point you are referring to because that is the only remaining option left.

Can you please explain to me how that equates to "get the job done"?

Sad that people cannot post anything better on such a serious matter. The stupidity of this debate is unbelivable. The 'legitimate' government of Afghanistan is a corrupted government complicit with the US. Which leaves the job of kicking out the US army and their allies to the insurgents, e.g. the Taliban... Amongst the Afghans I met some support the Taliban - usually for the reason that they want the US out of their country - many don't support the Taliban - usually for the reason the Taliban are very cruel on their own people and oppress women (not that the Karzai government doesn't oppress women, they passed some very bad laws against women in order to appease the fundamentalists) , but I did not meet a single Afghan who likes the Americans and everybody want them out. It is a really terrible situation to be stuck between the Taliban and the US. Afghanistan produces more refugees than any other country in the world, especially since the beginning of the US led invasion, and has the lowest life expectancy in the world, 45 years.
(Seemingly, the terrible suffering of the people is not going to stop idiots from posting idiotic comments).

I suppose, 'the job done' is to finish the Taliban off ( wherever they get their weapons from, I cannot actually believe that in a post cold war scenario the West is unable to put an embargo over a small-ish country that does not even have access to the sea... whatever the cause for lack of military success the foreing invaders are being killed right left and centre).
After 'our heroes' have restored peace together with the 'legitimate government' in Afghanistan shall be peace, like in Iraq for instance... but do we have to bother answering to such idiots?

"After 'our heroes' have restored peace together with the 'legitimate government' in Afghanistan shall be peace, like in Iraq for instance... but do we have to bother answering to such idiots?"

In Iraq just today:

 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gJ0Hdh5JnhhSvh4bsjO7m7Bzsx9g

This after US forces are supposedly withdrawn from the country having achieved 'mission success'!

I know how annoying it is to read the comments of the idiots, but idiots don't understand how 'education' works.

If they knew that, they wouldn't be idiots!

U.S. Judge Jackson who chaired the Nuremburg Trials (1945) wrote into international and national law, that the planning and doing of aggressive war is the Supreme International Crime on the planet earth, as it actuates all other crimes high, low, big and small in a reactionary chain of events globally. He further says that it is the Supreme International war war crime whether Germany does it or the U.S.A. does it.
The British Imperial system is signed on to this anti-fascist covenant through the British Eighth Army, and the U.S.A. is signed on to it through the Fifth Army via the U.S. Constitution which says that any international treaty signed on to the U.S. Constitution is to be treated as the supreme law of the land.
The problem here is that those anti-fascist covenants to which the anti-fascist fighters brought into the world and national law are not being lived up to by the British Imperialist Government and the U.S. Imperialist Governments, and it fact Bush and Blair are breaking those covenants and so is Obama and the present Government in the UK.
Note the jailing and suppressing of British and American Soldiers who have found that they were fighting and unjust war and doing an illegal occupation which is hated and resisted by over eighty percent of the people of Afganistan and Iraq.

The Geneva Conventions of War (1949) states that there are three obvious war crimes being committed by the British and American invaders, 1) the targeting and killing of civilians, 2) the torturing and killing of POW's, 3) Collective Punishment such as the bombing to rubble of villages, towns, and cities to rubble in case a militant is around.
The United Nations Charter is also being vilolated which is the very raison-d'-etre of the UN, in which it says the UN is formed to end aggressive war as foreign policy of the nation, and make aggressive war just a long distant memory for the comming generations. The new path to liberation was to make collective agree as democracy the way to settle disputes between nations.
It is not other and now that aggressive war is issuing from the minority Imperialist controlled security council, in violation of the majority UN Chartered General Assembly the same as in the League of Nations before, it seems aggressive war with Might makes Right, Unilateralism, and Pre-emptive strikes is to be revived from the discredited scrap heap of history and herstory from which it was consigned by the majority, after the defeat of its users the Axis Powers during the second world war. Veto should serve the majority not the minority Imperialist camp. End the Imperialist wars for pollution oil, not veto supported aggressive war for more and more oil pollution.

"The Karzai government is widely considered to be a puppet installation of the occupying forces. Much of that view emanating from Afghanistan itself. Much of that view shared outside Afghanistan."
Pure heresay. Widely considered? What you are falling for is anti-US propoganda.

""The ballot box in Afghanistan has been used in lots of ways in Afghanistan by the puppet government setup by the occupying force. Over the course of the previous few days, elections once again been marked by corruption, disinformation and fraudulent reporting. Yet again there are allegations of corruption, low turnout falsely attributed to 'security concerns' and a rising belief among ordinary Afghani's that,......."
EVERY election in the world 100% has allegations of corruption, fraud and cheating. If you start listening to every allegation like its a fact without proving it then you will continue to live in a world of pure heresay rather than what is actually going on in truth and fact.

"Yes, how is that terrorism thing working out for you these days. Still living in crippling fear?"
Just fuck off. You lot started it. If I had my way, I wouldn't let any of them in the country. Two advantages:
1) We wouldn't run the risk of any terrorist activity from these people
2) We wouldn't need to spend money on blowing you up.
Perhaps this would be a viable solution that is mutually beneficial, but all the lettuce-eaters go on about discrimination so I guess we have to live in the way we do.

"Austerity anyone? In the end, your concerns about your future will be decided on what's left in your wallet. In the end, your sense of what is right and wrong will count for nothing."
They should just drop a nuke on the country.

"Yes, you do have the freedom to do what you want. You have the freedom to be poor, penniless and broke. You even have the freedom to complain pointlessly about it."
Not poor. Quite affuent thank you very much. Self employed - got off my arse and made my own wealth rather than sitting around moaning for bigger handouts. The only way I was able to do that was because of the freedoms afforded to me by this country. If afganistan is so great, why is their quality of life so low (even before we started bombing it). Its like something out of the 12th century.
Given a choice of living here or in Afganistan, I think most people would want to live here (even if we weren't bombing it).

"What you are talking about is stumbling on until the violence dissipates to a level that allows for withdrawal. I know this is the point you are referring to because that is the only remaining option left."
Yes. Shoot the terrorists. If more of them come out of the woodwork, shoot them too. Keep doing it until they learn to stop. Cause and effect.

"Can you please explain to me how that equates to "get the job done"?"
When then ones who are so obsessed with blowing the US and UK up, all have their capacity to do so neutralised.

"The 'legitimate' government of Afghanistan is a corrupted government complicit with the US."
The US is working with the government at a mutual solution of stopping anti-west terrorism.
If they could stop them growing Heroin too that floods our streets that would be a bonus.

"Afghanistan produces more refugees than any other country in the world, especially since the beginning of the US led invasion, and has the lowest life expectancy in the world, 45 years."

The average life expectancy was terrible before the US even set foot there.
The main reasons for the low value are that about one in five children dies before his or her fifth birthday. Most woman in rural villages never see a health professional during child birth or pregnancy and there is a lack of drinking water and sanitary facilitites. Taliban anyone?

The average life expectancy has increased since the US has been there and the fall of the Taliban.


"U.S. Judge Jackson who chaired the Nuremburg Trials (1945) wrote into international and national law, that the planning and doing of agg.........."
Strawman argument.

"The Geneva Conventions of War (1949) states that there are three obvious war crimes being committed by the British and American inva....."
Strawman argunment

You are right about educating people but these aren't just idiots they are mouthpieces for pro-war imperialistic propaganda (though the pro-war lobby must be desperate if they rely on idiots like Max) that's why I was asking if such comments can be taken off... obviously indymedia activists are always too busy, so may I just ask these arseholes to fuck off, it has worked before...

I wouldn't take what Longbow has got say to serious. He thinks that 9/11 was an inside job.

pro-war imperialistic propaganda?
mouthpiece?
pro-war lobby?
What are you talking about!?

I'm on indymedia because these people are the most likely to need to be educated about what is going on. You are on indymedia to preach to the converted and back-slap each other.

"You are right about educating people but these aren't just idiots they are mouthpieces for pro-war imperialistic propaganda (though the pro-war lobby must be desperate if they rely on idiots like Max) that's why I was asking if such comments can be taken off... obviously indymedia activists are always too busy, so may I just ask these arseholes to fuck off, it has worked before..."

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

But even a mouthpiece isn't beyond educating. You are right to recognise that the pro-war lobby must be very desperate these days to have to rely on this kind of 'polemic' to put its case across.

But you can't just tell them to 'f##k off', because they will only f##k off to somewhere else, and do damage there instead.

Wherever you encounter them, leave them with nowhere else to go!

If you think the war is such a great idea, why don't you sign up to fight in Afghanistan, Max?

Oh, sorry, I forgot, that is just for cannon fodder plebs. Right wing intellectuals like yourself can sit here in comfort urging them on to die a glorious death for Queen and Country.

"Right wing intellectuals like yourself can sit here in comfort urging them on to die a glorious death for Queen and Country."

Surely 'right wing intellectual' is an oxymoron!

Max has already argued for the use of nuclear weapons and seems to believe that just shooting everybody is the best way to defeat terrorism. There is absolutely nothing intellectual, or even accurate, in what he is saying. What exactly is a 'glorious death for queen and country'? Don't you mean 'lemming'?

Chiara is right. He is pro-war lobby. Probably so dumb he does it voluntarily.

Leave it alone, He'll probably 'heroically' but stupidly get run over by a bus in a few days anyway.

I don't think the word intellectual necessarily means someone who is intelligent. Just someone whose work primarily involves thinking and reasoning rather than doing.

Besides, political issues are more about morality and ethics than matters of absolute truth. I totally disagree with the right wing but I think you can be right wing and intelligent. It's just your morals that are bad (from my point of view). Psychopaths are often highly intelligent.

Anyway, this is really just nitpicking. The main point is that the internet and media warmongers are hypocrites and cowards who are quite happy to encourage others to risk their lives but loath to risk the lives of themselves or their families. Wasn't there something a few years ago about US politicians not having a single son or daughter who was fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan?

If politicians had to personally lead the charge into battle maybe they wouldn't be so quick to send us to war.